Importance !

PaulBrewer

'The less important the engineer and technical process is to a project, the 'better' the music is'

Discuss ?

DamagedTrax

depends,

something acoustic i'd agree. something electronic i'd disagree. something inbetween i'd sit on a fence.

EDIT: having re-read your statement properly i'd totally disagree. the engineer or process has absolutly nothing to do with how good the music is. surely the only thing that can effect the music is the writing?

Seziertisch

There is a difference between important and apparent.

A good engineer/producer will keep things flowing with a minimum of fuss, when things hit a wall (either in a musical, technical or interpersonal sense) they will come up with a way forward, they will facilitate the creative process as much as possible without slowing or hindering it, when "the moment" is ready to happen everything will be in place to capture it.

If they are doing their job right, it should be easy to miss their importance as they will neither be drawing attention to themselves nor is their any reason to pay attention to them particularly as the real action is going to be happening on mic.

Rockshamrover

If the original musical idea is crap no amount of engineering or technology will make it better. Can't polish a turd and all.

By the same token you could probably ruin a good simple song by over producing or adding another 10 tracks of whatever. gilding the lilly.

I state all this like I apply this knowledge everyday to my own masterpieces but I think it's very hard to be objective when you only work on your own music.

I imagine it's easier to be more objective when working on someone else's stuff. What do ye think?

PaulBrewer

But if the idea/performance is so good then, even with the best engineering in the world, the total percentage contribution possible, even by the very best engineer, becomes nigh on insignificant , surely ?

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I imagine it's easier to be more objective when working on someone else's stuff. What do ye think?

That's true.

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

But if the idea/performance is so good then, even with the best engineering in the world, the total percentage contribution possible, even by the very best engineer, becomes nigh on insignificant , surely ?

I think looking at it in terms of percentages is wrong.

In the case of a great idea/performance together with a not so great engineer, I think mistakes, oversights and a lack of foresight in the engine room can quickly have a negative impact on the whole thing. When the flow is happening and other stuff is allowed to interrupt the flow it can put a damper on things fairly quickly.

Its like asking to what extent the guys doing the pitstop on an F1 car contribute to the driver winning a race. As such not at all, but if they don't do their job properly it can quickly result in a driver not winning or doing as well as he should have.

madtheory

This is an emotional, holistic, even messy issue that we are trying to understand in a technical, empirical, reductionist manner. I doubt that the exercise would produce a useful outcome, but I could easily be wrong!

Seziertisch is spot on though, the engineer is part of the team that oil the wheels to ensure that the artistic vision is realised. That vision is almost never easy to define in words, but on a good project, everyone will know in their hearts what it is. The engineering, such as it is, should be transparent. The technology is developing so that the role of "engineer" will become un-necessary, and the artist will be able to create a great product without one.

IMHO, the performance is everything. Engineering is the equivalent of hundreds and thousands on a nice cake.

Seziertisch

An acquaintance of mine knows one of the guitarists in a very successful band (both critically and commercially, and I mean very successful).

He freely admits that one of his main contributions to the band was his old man bankrolling them at the start.

There are others in the band that are the creative hub, but that said he has contributed some fairly killer song ideas/riffs.

Can his dad take any credit in the creative process? No. Did his dad facilitate the creative process? Yes. Did his dad's generosity and good faith ultimately pave the way for artistic greatness? Yes.

A good engineer will make a similarly supportive contribution.

dav nagle

Without interesting people like some of the most amazing producers out there records would suffer. Get a good engineer with a nice rack of gear and an energy driven band with the words 'charisma' written all over their faces and you may just make a very nice record. If an engineer takes a back seat and stays quite then why are they in the recording business but to be a ‘nobody’? Go out there, be someone, make yourself someone, don't stop and listen to all the negativity, it holds us all back. There is a great learning curve to the process that involves so much experience, it is just so damn exciting. Communication is key, fly like a butterfly sting like a bee, run around naked just you and me... Make a band believe and then you will receive.... 'The riddler'


ahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahagggghhhhhrrrrhhhahhahaha

Neurojazz

Mutt Lange + Def Leppard = how many millions of records?

DamagedTrax

Neurojazz wrote: »

Mutt Lange + Def Leppard = how many millions of records?

true, he may have sculpted their sound and made them what they are but i reckon the tunes were still there in the first place. he just knew how to bring them to the public in a perfectly produced, harmonized, multi-layered package!

11811

This all depends on what you mean by better - musically the performance may feel more realistic without too much focus on the engineering, giving a better impression of what the artist actually sounds like, the dynamics of the project may be more apparent and perhaps some of the simplicity retained in the musical arrangements - but all this also hinges on the performance, it is a tough one to call.

Sometimes a great song and performance can shine through poor engineering and production, although it seldom works the other way

TelePaul

Any time I listen to Tom Waits, I can't help but feel a certain amount of respect for his engineer. I don't know how he deals with the pulling of monitors into the live room, the prospect of home-made drum kits and the singing through a bullhorn. Of course it all sounds fantastic, a fact which is attributable in part to Waits' genius but I think it takes a certain amount of skill to make sounds, especially unorthodox sounds, 'work'. But there's a fine line between being an enginee and a producer right? I think if things are left entirely up to the artist, the song will probably sound terrible. If it's left entirely to the enginner, maybe it'll lose a little soul. Perhaps the producer is responsible for a definitve middle-gorund?

Rockshamrover

Seziertisch wrote: »

I think looking at it in terms of percentages is wrong.

In the case of a great idea/performance together with a not so great engineer, I think mistakes, oversights and a lack of foresight in the engine room can quickly have a negative impact on the whole thing. When the flow is happening and other stuff is allowed to interrupt the flow it can put a damper on things fairly quickly.

Its like asking to what extent the guys doing the pitstop on an F1 car contribute to the driver winning a race. As such not at all, but if they don't do their job properly it can quickly result in a driver not winning or doing as well as he should have.

That's good.

Getting the best out of a band/singer using whatever is at your disposal. as in technology and knowledge/experience.

The problems start when the guys in the pit want to drive the car:D

madtheory

Mutt's producer, not an engineer...

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Mutt's producer, not an engineer...

Aye, Mike Shipley was the engineer I believe who mixed the last Blizzards Album.

Neurojazz

madtheory wrote: »

Mutt's producer, not an engineer...

ah, I'd had thought that they'd be working together.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Aye, Mike Shipley was the engineer I believe who mixed the last Blizzards Album.

I thought that was you!

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

I thought that was you!

No !