life? fate? destiny? or just chance?

suki07

apologies if ths has been discussed before, i am just curious to know your opinions on the following;

not believing in Gods, do you believe then in destiny/fate? Do you believe in the idea of "everything happens for a reason", or do you believe moreso that life just happens, no great plan no great design? Do you have any time for the following "if its meant to be it will be," or "if it's for you it won't pass you," ? do you believe that what happens/occurs in your life or where you are in your life is where you are MEANT to be? or what is MEANT to be happening?

or do you just accept that which comes your way for what it is... just life... and basically good/bad things happen, get over it?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions.

robby^5

No I dont believe any of that nonsense tbh, life is what you make it, simple as that. There is no grand design because there is no grand designer. I also have to say I find it pretty depressing that anybody can believe in destiny or fate, I enjoy controlling my own actions in life.

Dave!

suki07 wrote: »

or do you just accept that which comes your way for what it is... just life... and basically good/bad things happen, get over it?

Not to preempt every response, but I suspect that 99% of posters in this forum do not believe in fate, destiny, etc.

I certainly don't anyways. What happens happens. There's no fate or destiny, life is what you make of it.

ShooterSF

As said already what happens happens. Actually I believe (pre-cursor for an opinion) that the scariness of that answer is what puts off a lot of "lapsed catholics" admitting they don't really believe in god.
On a less serious note someone started a thread months ago asking what he should do given that he had been given to much change in a store. While I agreed the right thing to do was hand back the money I had to laugh at a comment made to people who were telling him it was bad karma to keep it and what goes around comes around.
Someone had pointed out maybe this was the good thing coming around to him for something good he had done before and maybe the shop worker had done something bad and this was the bad thing coming around and who was the OP to prevent karma/the universe from fixing things

ChocolateSauce

suki07 wrote: »

apologies if ths has been discussed before, i am just curious to know your opinions on the following;

not believing in Gods, do you believe then in destiny/fate? Do you believe in the idea of "everything happens for a reason", or do you believe moreso that life just happens, no great plan no great design? Do you have any time for the following "if its meant to be it will be," or "if it's for you it won't pass you," ? do you believe that what happens/occurs in your life or where you are in your life is where you are MEANT to be? or what is MEANT to be happening?

or do you just accept that which comes your way for what it is... just life... and basically good/bad things happen, get over it?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions.

No/no, no, yes, yes, no, no, no, no, depends, depends.

Coriolanus

Well, I'm a sort of soft determinist I guess, which is sort of, but not really at all, like believing in fate.

I don't ascribe meaning as such, but I don't believe we're anywhere near the free agents we feel we are. Culture, geography and other factors impact on us so much that very few decisions we make are completely free of some compulsion.

suki07

Dave! wrote: »

There's no fate or destiny, life is what you make of it.

I would have, until recently, considered myself to be quite religious or spiritual at least, absolutely believing in God. While I would not have considered myself to be a practising follower, I have totally abandoned all belief and calling to God in the last few months. I find I can talk myself around when I need to be strong. But, as atheists, how do you do this all the time? I'm finding it very difficult at the moment. From where do you get your hope?? I comfort myself in saying things like... I'll be all the stronger for it.. this is the way it's meant to be / or not meant to be...(I suppose a belief that certain things are destined..) but as atheists you don't believe that do you? You just believe life happens, accept and embrace? So how do you stay positive? How do you motivate yourselves to "make the best of life?"... The idea that there is no fate or destiny really fills me with fear; the comfort I get in saying those things to myself makes me stronger, but I feel I'm in denial saying or believing such things. So how do you do it?

Pickled Tranee

I am a science person but I always liked the Idea of Destiny but I have my doughts about it I am more to chance that anyting

Dave!

suki07 wrote: »

I would have, until recently, considered myself to be quite religious or spiritual at least, absolutely believing in God. While I would not have considered myself to be a practising follower, I have totally abandoned all belief and calling to God in the last few months. I find I can talk myself around when I need to be strong. But, as atheists, how do you do this all the time? I'm finding it very difficult at the moment. From where do you get your hope?? I comfort myself in saying things like... I'll be all the stronger for it.. this is the way it's meant to be / or not meant to be...(I suppose a belief that certain things are destined..) but as atheists you don't believe that do you? You just believe life happens, accept and embrace? So how do you stay positive? How do you motivate yourselves to "make the best of life?"... The idea that there is no fate or destiny really fills me with fear; the comfort I get in saying those things to myself makes me stronger, but I feel I'm in denial saying or believing such things. So how do you do it?

Interesting thread all of a sudden !

Personally I've thankfully yet to encounter the kind of tribulations that you seem to have endured that you felt it necessary to talk yourself out of a negative mindset. That is to say, I've yet to lose any friends or family members or anything like that since I've been an adult.

So I'm not sure how I'll deal with that kind of thing

I guess I don't spend alot of time thinking about how to "make the best of life", and live every day to its fullest, etc. I just get on with my life and take each event as it comes.

I've got enough plans, dreams, wishes, and hopes, that I feel I have alot to achieve in the future, and that gives me the motivation to put in the effort and try when I need to. I want an income that will give me security and allow me to live in comfort with my family (when I have one!), as well as having enough money to travel, etc. I guess that's something that motivated me to get through college. I struggled alot during college, and could have dropped out several times, but I just talked to friends about going travelling together afterwards, and that kept me going

That's another thing that keeps me in a positive mindset. I have some good friends that I can have fun with, talk to about things, and generally keep my mind stimulated. I also have a big enough family (3 siblings + cousins, etc.), so that's a good security net that I know is always there.

Another thing that probably subconsciously keeps me positive is that I know how lucky I am to be in the situation I'm in. I guess when a religious person is feeling bad, they might think that it's part of a big plan, and that they'll just ride it out until they move onto the next part of god's big plan. But when I'm feeling bad about something, I used to tell myself (mentally) that I'm lucky to even be here at all, that it's pure chance that it's me that's here, and in fact that any of us are here at all. Furthermore, I could have been born in sub Saharan Africa, and spent all day swatting flies off myself as I starve to death.

So just count yourself lucky no matter what happens to you, that you were born in the country you were born in, you're comfortable enough to be living in a stable environment (with internet access ), with a family that loves you, friends, etc. Think of all the poor bastards in the world that died young and didn't get to have the life you're living.

I guess every day is a gift, though not from god

I must be on drugs, cos that all seems like gibberish to me now that I read it back Oh well

Red Hand

Dave! wrote: »

So just count yourself lucky no matter what happens to you, that you were born in the country you were born in, you're comfortable enough to be living in a stable environment (with internet access ), with a family that loves you, friends, etc. Think of all the poor bastards in the world that died young and didn't get to have the life you're living.

And just think of those poor bastards out there in those countries that are atheist...they don't even have the soothing balm of an afterlife to look forward to.:pac:

I don't believe in destiny or fate. I do find it hard sometimes to see the whole point in everything. We should try to work on the small scale...surprising a friend with a gift, reading a good book, eating a nice meal because everything bigger (life, your reason for being here, humanity, destiny) is ultimately pointless in the grand scheme of things.

The Mad Hatter

Que sera sera?

Zillah

I'm very sorry but the Buddhists are kind of right when they say to exist is to suffer. When you really break it down, you are a biological shell designed to allow your genes to survive beyond the brief span of your fleeting sentience. There is no plan, no structure, no mercy or motive. You just are, and then you won't be.

I have hope because I have good cause to believe that my relatively good life shall continue as it is or become even more pleasant. Without that I would not have hope. I know that some day I will no longer be, but I've come to terms with the notion of oblivion, and as unpleasant a thought as it might be now, when it happens it could not possibly be unpleasant.

So no, I do not for an instant think we are anything but gooey and unlikely things for which there is no special plan, no destiny or meaning or fate. Everything that we are shall vanish like tears in rain*. A billion creatures on earth have lived short and torturous lives, I see no reason to believe that we are in anyway different, other than mere serendipity. Where is the fate or destiny for a young woman in South Africa who is gang raped to death, or the hare that is shot through the spine by a bored farmer. We're lucky, stupendously, fortuitously lucky, nothing more. The surface of our planet could boil from an interstellar gamma ray burst some day. Any day, any second, we won't see it coming.

But hey, you live in the Western world and there is ice cream and puppies, water-fights, fireworks, kittens, alcohol, sex, music, and all sorts of cool stuff to indulge in before the relentless reaper claims you.

(feel free to edit in some more wholesome things to that list for those of you who are no longer hedonistic twenty somethings)

Best to just accept there nothing really all that important is going on and have some fun.

*(

You get 1 xp if you spotted the Bladerunner reference

)

Calibos

Yeah, 'tears in the rain' yadda yadda yadda

That was some powerful nihlistic prose there Zillah. Bravo!

Húrin

Zillah wrote: »

I have hope because I have good cause to believe that my relatively good life shall continue as it is or become even more pleasant. Without that I would not have hope. I know that some day I will no longer be, but I've come to terms with the notion of oblivion, and as unpleasant a thought as it might be now, when it happens it could not possibly be unpleasant.
.....
But hey, you live in the Western world and there is ice cream and puppies, water-fights, fireworks, kittens, alcohol, sex, music, and all sorts of cool stuff to indulge in before the relentless reaper claims you.

(feel free to edit in some more wholesome things to that list for those of you who are no longer hedonistic twenty somethings)

Best to just accept there nothing really all that important is going on and have some fun.

*(

You get 1 xp if you spotted the Bladerunner reference

)

This is a tract shamelessly designed to avoid the duty to do the right thing, make the world a better place than how you found it. The whole idea that morality is not real, I suspect, is designed to justify western privelege and exploitation of the rest of the world.

Since you constantly evangelise about how immoral religion is and that you hate what it causes, I expect that you know this too.

suki07

Dave! wrote: »

Interesting thread all of a sudden !

Personally I've thankfully yet to encounter the kind of tribulations that you seem to have endured that you felt it necessary to talk yourself out of a negative mindset.

I've got enough plans, dreams, wishes, and hopes, that I feel I have alot to achieve in the future, and that gives me the motivation to put in the effort and try when I need to.

Another thing that probably subconsciously keeps me positive is that I know how lucky I am to be in the situation I'm in.

But when I'm feeling bad about something, I used to tell myself (mentally) that I'm lucky to even be here at all, that it's pure chance that it's me that's here, and in fact that any of us are here at all.


So just count yourself lucky no matter what happens to you, that you were born in the country you were born in, you're comfortable enough to be living in a stable environment (with internet access ), with a family that loves you, friends, etc. Think of all the poor bastards in the world that died young and didn't get to have the life you're living.

I guess every day is a gift, though not from god

Thank you for your post, it's very comforting. I konw that the bigger questions are not worth the bother as quite simply we will not know the answers until we die - IF we find out at all . (I suspect we won't) Yet I cannot help but think about such things right now.


But do you ever question, how or why you are so lucky? And how others are not? Which makes me wonder, is it luck? Is it something else, i.e. God? We are so fortunate then shouldn't we be doing more to help others? Or does that even matter?

I think the ideas posted above that we are here to simply live and die, and that life is simply to suffer are seriously depressing. Why bother then? Sometimes I think, yes we are extermely lucky in the western world, but horrible things happen to us too, just like in developing countries and maybe the pain we all suffer is comparative, just our circumstances are different.

Im rambling on now and I apologise. The idea that life is life, no purpose, I find this very distressing.

Believing in a God gave me hope, not so much of the afterlife but just gave me a direction in life.

Btw, I know this all sounds very serious but I would like to reiterate that I know how lucky I am in life and that actually I'm quite happy, just these questions are playing on my mind a bit at present! Maybe I should focus on something to take my mind off them!!

Zillah

Húrin wrote: »

This is a tract shamelessly designed to avoid the duty to do the right thing, make the world a better place than how you found it.

Ha! I truly believe there is no such duty, no right thing. I do not for a second entertain the notion that I owe anything to anything in this universe beyond what I feel like. Your magic sky daddy has no hold over me.

The whole idea that morality is not real, I suspect, is designed to justify western privelege and exploitation of the rest of the world.

I don't need to justify shit. Our society is fueled by the tears and blood of cheap labour in the third world, and as long as I don't see pictures of that to make my empathy centres go ouch, I don't care. Nor do you, really, I'm just honest about it. I wonder how many people's sight you could have saved for the money you'd get selling the PC you're on now? What's the fanciest item you own? What's that in dead African children, five? A thousand?

Every indulgence you have taken in your years on this earth can be measured in the number of exploited dead we leave in our wake. I wonder what your number is, and why you're in the end ok with it, if you believe what you're saying?

Since you constantly evangelise about how immoral religion is and that you hate what it causes, I expect that you know this too.

I attack intellectual inconsistencies. The Catholic Church states they seek a better world for mankind and respect all life, and then take actions that contribute towards exacerbating the worst life ruining pandemic we've seen since the Black Plague. I also bitch about stuff that actually effects my life. If ever I have made a statement one could interpret as objectively criticising the morality of religion, I was most assuredly either being facetious, ironic or momentarily indulging some soap boxing.

Verily, I can understand why you'd like to believe we all accept your quaint notion of an objective moral truth. But that won't make it so.

Zillah

suki07 wrote: »

The idea that life is life, no purpose, I find this very distressing.

There is no purpose, but if you find yourself getting distressed by it, there's always stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AB1An3-Rpk

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

I don't need to justify shit. Our society is fueled by the tears and blood of cheap labour in the third world, and as long as I don't see pictures of that to make my empathy centres go ouch, I don't care. Nor do you, really, I'm just honest about it. I wonder how many people's sight you could have saved for the money you'd get selling the PC you're on now? What's the fanciest item you own? What's that in dead African children, five? A thousand?

Harsh, but fair!

Turtwig

I hate the idea of fatalism :
Things happen because either people made them happen, or the chaotic process of nature eventually led to them happening.

Life is suffering then we die

Can't remember who exactly said something like that,(GM Hopkins???) but I disagree wholly:D

For me being an atheist, is a recognition in the sense of realising what life truly means and that is absolutely sweet fcuk all in the grander scheme of things. You will die, and to paraphrase Thomas Hardy, someday the rainwater will erode away the very writing on your epitaph until all the memories that you made are gone forever and ever....
Depressing stuff, indeed!
That is, of course, my view of what happens when we finally extinguish our passion in life. You see, it is this very reason that motivates us to make the most of life, to appreciate what we've been given; not what we hope to receive. This world is truly amazing, the complex bio-sphere that is earth harbours so much beauty and intrigue, and this is before one begins to look at the other planets,stars and galaxies that inhabit our little portion of a much more infinite universe (or multiverse?).
Life is for living; make the most of it while you've got the chance

To paraphrase a very wise person (name forgotten:o)

Knowing that eternal life is lie doesn't depress me at all; what depresses me is that If I'm right I won't be able to brag about it to others..

Afterthought : If it was GM Hopkins that said that quote, then it's easy enough to understand as he was really a religious nut that badly BADLY needed some form of Diazepam or prozac.

CerebralCortex

Malty_T wrote: »

I hate the idea of fatalism :

Yet:

Malty_T wrote: »

For me being an atheist, is a recognition in the sense of realising what life truly means and that is absolutely sweet fcuk all in the grander scheme of things. You will die,

I fail to see how what you say above is anything other than fatalism. Care to enlighten me?


I too see existence as something wonderful and the meaning of life to me is to get more out of it included in that I don't think it reasonable to yield to death not in the conventional sense (can't rule out the inumerate ways for a conciousness to end) like others to seem on here. I'm very lucky to have been born towards the end of the 20th century as opposed to any other time in history and in a western civilisation in a reasonably wealthy family etc the list of variables contributing to who I am right now is immense I'm too lucky. My purpose/meaning in life is to capitalise on that luck.


The universe is so limited by a religious outlook such a burden on the imagination all because of an insecurity (just a little dig at religion there, guilty pleasure).

Turtwig

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yet:
I fail to see how what you say above is anything other than fatalism. Care to enlighten me?

Nothing is predestined by fate - it is however a fact that we will all die someday it's just 'the when' is completely undecided.
Nothing fatalistic about that.:)

bnt

Nearly everything that's ever happened to me has come to pass because of people; sometimes myself, but mostly other people, and rarely "fate", "destiny" or anything else. I'm finding it hard to think of an example that doesn't involve people.

For example - and I'm not kidding - I have a medical condition that may have been triggered by my mother not getting enough sunlight while incubating me: do I blame her for something that's only recently coming to light (pardon the pun)? Is something "fate" if it's avoidable or preventable?

Goduznt Xzst

Zillah wrote: »

as long as I don't see pictures of that to make my empathy centres go ouch, I don't care. Nor do you, really, I'm just honest about it.

Don't lie, pictures of it wouldn't affect your empathy centers at all. I don't think even being present, and watching malnourished children dying would make most people truly give up their western indulgences entirely. Given the time to form personal relationships with the actual people suffering, maybe, yes, then we would care enough to help.

What is it called, Dunbar's number, the maximum amount of people we can care for and have a stable relationship with.

Outside of this monkeysphere of individuals we care for we begin to categorize humans into groups, like a country, or company, or organization. We lose the capacity to distinguish individuals. We simply don't have the capacity to care for them.

We'd rather 1 billion unknown children to die than for the child from our own flesh to perish. In fact with our lifestyles we daily support and bolster the killing and deaths of unknown, faceless children worldwide.

Being truly honest, our main motivation for existence is securing our own happiness and, to a lesser extent, those in our social circle.

CerebralCortex

Malty_T wrote: »

Nothing is predestined by fate - it is however a fact that we will all die someday it's just 'the when' is completely undecided.
Nothing fatalistic about that.:)

I get you now I guess I'm trying to resist the mindset that is against possibilities I suppose thats my agenda.

Zillah

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Don't lie, pictures of it wouldn't affect your empathy centers at all. I don't think even being present, and watching malnourished children dying would make most people truly give up their western indulgences entirely.

X is proportional to Y and Z, where X is the amount of exposure, Y is the degree of empathy felt, and Z is the resulting action.

So if I see a very emotive appeal on TV (X) I may feel enough empathy (Y) to give up a few euro to save some blind kid's sight (Z).

Similarly, if I were on holiday in some shithole in Africa and saw starving children, I may feel bad enough to dedicate several months of my life to volunteer work.

Yes religious people, I have broken down morality to a very simple formula.

gaynorvader

I do believe that there is Fate, but I don't believe it is guided by a supreme being. It's just that without foreknowledge of events, we will make decisions based on our past and biological processes. If we could see into the future I believe we could change it, but as we can't, the same path will be taken by the same individual over and over again. For me, it's the challenges life throws my way that keeps me going. If I find myself in a difficult spot, it invigorates me and gets me thinking, same with personal tragedy, I tend to start thinking how I'll get by, planning the future as best I can in my head.

suki07

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yet:






I too see existence as something wonderful and the meaning of life to me is to get more out of it

My purpose/meaning in life is to capitalise on that luck.


.

Do you mean this in the sense of to make the most of everything that comes your way? Can you elaborate?
One thing that seems to be lacking in this conversation of the meaning of life/fate.... is the lack of giving. Everyone seems to accept that they are lucky and to just capitalise on that luck. Is that not a very selfish response to the gift of life? I may have interpreted this wrongly however and don't wish to imply that this is exactly what you mean.

Myksyk

Húrin wrote: »

The whole idea that morality is not real, I suspect, is designed to justify western privelege and exploitation of the rest of the world

An argument to make you believe in density ... if not destiny.

CerebralCortex

suki07 wrote: »

Do you mean this in the sense of to make the most of everything that comes your way? Can you elaborate?

Well I personally believe nature to be cruel and cold in terms of what it means to be a concious being in a woefully inadequate body. I think the thing that gives my life most meaning is trying to improve my experience of it.

suki07 wrote: »

One thing that seems to be lacking in this conversation of the meaning of life/fate.... is the lack of giving.

I don't understand. I think even altruistic actions have selfish motive and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

suki07 wrote: »

Everyone seems to accept that they are lucky and to just capitalise on that luck. Is that not a very selfish response to the gift of life? I may have interpreted this wrongly however and don't wish to imply that this is exactly what you mean.

I personally believe the best way to help others is to help yourself.

Goduznt Xzst

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I think even altruistic actions have selfish motive and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Absolutely. I've been on planes behind your typical gap year Americans as they extol their recent experiences in Nepal saving baby elephants. They talk like they are the messiah reincarnate.

What they fail to see is that all the pollution of the multiple flights to and from their destination, the money they paid some agency to get them this work, the money they paid on flights and everything else. If they'd just sat at home for 2 weeks and actually just gave this money to the 3rd world country of their choice they probably could of built a school with it.

But that wasn't their main motivation. Helping people was a secondary concern, they merely wanted the experience of helping people, going on a nice holiday and momentarily appeasing their western guilt of living off of the misfortune of others.

tech77

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Don't lie, pictures of it wouldn't affect your empathy centers at all. I don't think even being present, and watching malnourished children dying would make most people truly give up their western indulgences entirely. Given the time to form personal relationships with the actual people suffering, maybe, yes, then we would care enough to help.

What is it called, Dunbar's number, the maximum amount of people we can care for and have a stable relationship with.

Outside of this monkeysphere of individuals we care for we begin to categorize humans into groups, like a country, or company, or organization. We lose the capacity to distinguish individuals. We simply don't have the capacity to care for them.

We'd rather 1 billion unknown children to die than for the child from our own flesh to perish. In fact with our lifestyles we daily support and bolster the killing and deaths of unknown, faceless children worldwide.

Being truly honest, our main motivation for existence is securing our own happiness and, to a lesser extent, those in our social circle.

Interesting comment on the limits of empathy.
I love when people bang on about human empathy being the basis for a perfect far-reaching morality.
I know imposed morality from religion isn't any better.
But (as you say), empathy is a localized thing.