Does this seem off to you?

doomedtofail

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0904/migration.html

ESRI research has found that almost 6% of Ireland's economic growth since 2004 was generated by the inflow of workers from the eastern European states which joined the EU that year.

Keeping that aside, they now make up (in addition to Nigerians, Indians etc. of the non-EU member states) 80,304 of the 440,056 people currently on the Live Register.

That's approx 18% of the Live Register is made up of persons, who if we assume is on the basic 208 Euro per month, are costing the state a minimum of 66 million Euro per month...and that's before the add-ons.

Grudaire

So foreigners are claiming the Doll - is that the entire story?

Bhuel a duine uasal. Perhaps thay have worked here for years, paying tax AND PRSI, and thus are entitled to it?

PaulieD

Cliste wrote: »

So foreigners are claiming the Doll - is that the entire story?

Bhuel a duine uasal. Perhaps thay have worked here for years, paying tax AND PRSI, and thus are entitled to it?

And driving down wages.

Sleipnir

PaulieD wrote: »

And driving down wages.

Exactly, that's just what this country needs.

Grudaire

PaulieD wrote: »

And driving down wages.

The fvckers are making us more compeditive?:mad:

doomedtofail

Cliste wrote: »

So foreigners are claiming the Doll - is that the entire story?

Bhuel a duine uasal. Perhaps thay have worked here for years, paying tax AND PRSI, and thus are entitled to it?

Perhaps they have worked for the required period of time before claiming job seekers. Perhaps they have contributed 6% to the economic growth of this country although look where that left us.

The false pop economics people were spouting back in the day about foreign nationals propping up our economy has turned out to be absolute pish. Now we're left with the dregs of the foreign nationals approaching 20% of the Live Register figure. For some reason me thinks it's not the skilled Nigerian doctors or Philippine nurses who are queuing at the local post office.

In a nutshell - the pros and cons of mass immigration in cold figures could not be starker...another example of mismanagement of the boom by the government

dresden8

Cliste wrote: »

So foreigners are claiming the Doll - is that the entire story?

Bhuel a duine uasal. Perhaps thay have worked here for years, paying tax AND PRSI, and thus are entitled to it?

Low paid workers pay very little tax and quite possibly no PRSI, they do qualify for full benefits though.

Grudaire

dresden8 wrote: »

Low paid workers pay very little tax and quite possibly no PRSI, they do qualify for full benefits though.

What are the requirements actually?

Zambia

doomedtofail wrote: »

That's approx 18% of the Live Register is made up of persons, who if we assume is on the basic 208 Euro per month, are costing the state a minimum of 66 million Euro per month...and that's before the add-ons.

If I was gonna kick the ar5e of the live register I would aim at the other 72% who have turned unemployment into a f&&king career choice. :mad:

jank

The answer to the OP is no, it does not seem off. This is just an excuse for rant against migrants imo.

doomedtofail

jank wrote: »

The answer to the OP is no, it does not seem off. This is just an excuse for rant against migrants imo.

If I were to rant I would rant. Migrant bashing is a refined art at this stage where one can use any number of legitimate, and from what we've read on other posts, sometimes off the wall and downright erroneous claims to support that agenda. This is an invitation for debate on the sustainability of such numbers and, perhaps, to discuss what I perceive as a massive discrepancy at a fiscal level at least between the economic pros and cons of mass immigration to this country.

So keep your PC thug opinions to yourself please if you can't add anything substantial to the discussion.

ChocolateSauce

Statistically, migrants don't make a difference at all. If the x number of migrants were in fact Irish, we'd have the same number of jobs, same amount of money floating around, same number of people unemployed. If they leave, we're just shrinking the number of consumers and thus shrinking the potential for jobs.

IF you want to criticise migrants, economically is a really bad way to do it.

AlekSmart

The false pop economics people were spouting back in the day about foreign nationals propping up our economy has turned out to be absolute pish. Now we're left with the dregs of the foreign nationals approaching 20% of the Live Register figure. For some reason me thinks it's not the skilled Nigerian doctors or Philippine nurses who are queuing at the local post office.

Interesting and possibly pertinent view.

Its also interesting that the Minister for Justice recently lessened some of the restrictions on Non-National work-permit holders remaining on a tad longer in the State when made redundant.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/govt-eases-rules-for-redundant-workpermit-holders-1872607.html

A true cynic might say that this could be seen as maintaining a downward pressure on general wage rates whilst perhaps forgetting that Irish DSFA payments will still be well above what might await the FO on their return to their country of origin.

IF you want to criticise migrants, economically is a really bad way to do it.

If it`s about criticising anybody then I might suggest making a start on the likes of Ministers like Ms Harney who spouted nonsense regarding Ireland having a REQUIREMENT for up to 200,000 migrants to keep our economy on it`s upward track....That was,of course pre Liam Carroll !!!

doomedtofail

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Statistically, migrants don't make a difference at all. If the x number of migrants were in fact Irish, we'd have the same number of jobs, same amount of money floating around, same number of people unemployed. If they leave, we're just shrinking the number of consumers and thus shrinking the potential for jobs.

IF you want to criticise migrants, economically is a really bad way to do it.

Not too sure if I agree with your analysis of the issue with the same cyclical logic.

Shrinking number of consumers = shrinking potential for jobs
Increasing number of consumers = increasing potential for job

Therefore mass immigration, and thereafter keeping foreign nationals here is a necessity?

Not to be too glib about it but I would have thought sound economic policy, a highly educated workforce, cut in unwarranted government expenditure and an increase in exports & productivity is what's needed on this island - not retaining consumption levels on credit we couldn't afford to maintain.

Ireland only improved its economic prowess in the late 80s not after we stopped exporting people but after a series of policies put in place by successive governments.

deadhead13

Zambia232 wrote: »

If I was gonna kick the ar5e of the live register I would aim at the other 72% who have turned unemployment into a f&&king career choice. :mad:

That is blatant nonsense and 18 + 72 = 90.

jank

doomedtofail wrote: »

So keep your PC thug opinions to yourself please if you can't add anything substantial to the discussion.

As far as i know this is a public forum where opinions are warranted, therefore I am entitled to have my opinion.;)

If I were to rant I would rant. Migrant bashing is a refined art at this stage where one can use any number of legitimate, and from what we've read on other posts, sometimes off the wall and downright erroneous claims to support that agenda. This is an invitation for debate on the sustainability of such numbers and, perhaps, to discuss what I perceive as a massive discrepancy at a fiscal level at least between the economic pros and cons of mass immigration to this country.

Do you have the stats on hand for the ammount of Migrants going home? I dont think we will be seeing a new flux of migrants any time soo. Economy fcuked = Problem solved!

AlekSmart

Do you have the stats on hand for the ammount of Migrants going home? I dont think we will be seeing a new flux of migrants any time soo.

I would not be so sure of the numbers "going home",no siree cos in the minds of certain serious political thinkers the "Immigrants" represent a very useful tool with which to tap away at the natives....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/redundant-immigrants-given-breathing-space-1872830.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/influx-of-immigrants-is-without-precedent-1878124.html

It`s all a matter of perception really........:eek:

doomedtofail

jank wrote: »

Economy fcuked = Problem solved!

I think you've highlighted the problem there in more concise terms than I ever could. It's exactly because the economy is in the state that it is that we can't afford to prop up 80,000 migrant workers while they wait it out for, let's be honest, more low-paid positions to open up. There are only so many Spars left to be built.

On the other hand with a vibrant economy we could afford to listen to the nonsense spouted by Harney and co. about the absolute necessity for this massive influx of poorly educated, untrained cheap labour.

And with the most basic of SW packages coming in at over E200 (combined with a minimum wage of E8.50 where work is available), there's no way these dole recipients are going anywhere...I know I wouldn't...

djpbarry

doomedtofail wrote: »

It's exactly because the economy is in the state that it is that we can't afford to prop up 80,000 migrant workers while they wait it out for, let's be honest, more low-paid positions to open up. There are only so many Spars left to be built.

On the other hand with a vibrant economy we could afford to listen to the nonsense spouted by Harney and co. about the absolute necessity for this massive influx of poorly educated, untrained cheap labour.

Why do you assume that the 80,000-odd foreign nationals on the dole are poorly educated or untrained?

doomedtofail

I don't and my post shouldn't be construed in that way - assuming something as general as that would be just plain silly and I didn't think this needed to be spelt out. I would highlight however that in all likelihood the 80,000 represents the bottom tier of an educated migrant workforce.

Like I said in previous posts, it's unlikely that the doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers etc. are those in receipt of SW payments but the poorly-trained, uneducated, barely legible cheap labour...a redundant workforce we have no need for and won't for many years to come.

deadhead13

jank wrote: »

Do you have the stats on hand for the ammount of Migrants going home? I dont think we will be seeing a new flux of migrants any time soo. Economy fcuked = Problem solved!

The CSO is supposed to be publishing the latest figures any day now, in 2008 around 100,000 migrants left. Joan Burton is claiming that the CSO report will suggest that emigration in 2010, of Irish and non-nationals, will see the biggest fall in Ireland's population since the 50's

djpbarry

doomedtofail wrote: »

I would highlight however that in all likelihood the 80,000 represents the bottom tier of an educated migrant workforce.

Are you applying the same logic to the 440,000-odd Irish people on the dole? Because that seems incredibly simplistic to me.

Fratton Fred

so maybe the OP could give us an answer to this problem? kick all foreigners out, just kick out the ones who are on the dole?

Maybe an explanation as to why someone who moved here five years ago with their family and is now signing on should have to mave all their family back to Poland, Latvia or wherever so they can make Ireland's books balance.

Lu Tze

doomedtofail wrote: »

Like I said in previous posts, it's unlikely that the doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers etc. are those in receipt of SW payments but the poorly-trained, uneducated, barely legible cheap labour...a redundant workforce we have no need for and won't for many years to come.

Can't speak for the other professions you mentioned, but engineering has taken a serious hit. Our office is now 50% smaller, with only 12-13% of the people left working there are non-irish, and this used to be far higher, nearer 50%.

Not that there was any discrimination in redundancies, but immigrants generally had less experience working in this market, or less time with our company.

I would imagine there are quite a number of highly skilled immigrants making up that 80,000 on SW.

doomedtofail

Lu Tze wrote: »

Can't speak for the other professions you mentioned, but engineering has taken a serious hit. Our office is now 50% smaller, with only 12-13% of the people left working there are non-irish, and this used to be far higher, nearer 50%.

Not that there was any discrimination in redundancies, but immigrants generally had less experience working in this market, or less time with our company.

I would imagine there are quite a number of highly skilled immigrants making up that 80,000 on SW.

We're also involved in Engineering and it would appear our situation is quite the opposite - cheaper Indian engineers have been brought in to replace Irish engineers who were let go 8 months ago. A cynic might suggest this was a ploy by management who wanted to reduce their overheads...but I digress...

There's no way of telling what percentage of that 80,000 or indeed the approx 500,000 total are deemed to be 'highly skilled'; my original post set out to highlight the gross discrepancy between the perceived economic benefits (4-6% pending on source of accounted wealth generated in its simplest terms since 2004) mass migration has delivered as opposed to the E66million (at the very least) it costs the State monthly to support persons from economies far larger than ours which can absorb such relatively vast numbers.

doomedtofail

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so maybe the OP could give us an answer to this problem? kick all foreigners out, just kick out the ones who are on the dole?

Maybe an explanation as to why someone who moved here five years ago with their family and is now signing on should have to mave all their family back to Poland, Latvia or wherever so they can make Ireland's books balance.

What relevance does it have where they come from? If they are citizens of an EU member state then they are free to be unemployed anywhere they choose within the EU, prerequisites covered of course. Why on earth should I care if someone has to move back to x? Do you think any Australian gives a toss, nor should they, when the Irish can't find work in Australia as is now the case and have to return home? I care about this country balancing its books.

I would ask you what your thoughts are on a possible solution but having read your last post I'd actually rather you didn't if it were to be of similar sentimental mush as above.

To paraphrase Dr.Barrett from the ESRI - it was good for Ireland when the jobless immigrants returned home.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/influx-of-immigrants-is-without-precedent-1878124.html

Now why do you think someone with far greater access to statistical information on such demographics than I, or it would appear, you would have reason to conclude such a thing?

doomedtofail

djpbarry wrote: »

Are you applying the same logic to the 440,000-odd Irish people on the dole? Because that seems incredibly simplistic to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

To summarize the common understanding of the principle, "Of several acceptable explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest is preferable, provided that it does not contradict the observed facts."

We can make it a lot more complicated for you once the relevant qnhs reports are issued, but until then I can only rely on logical estimations - by May 2008 a third of the 25-64 bracket had attained third-level education status.

According to the latest figures made available by the CSO

"Unemployment rates clearly fell as education levels increased with a 2%
unemployment rate for persons with a third level degree or above."

We all know how non-discriminatory the axe has fallen this past year on both native and migrant alike, but I still would be quite confident that statistically the majority of those 80,000 will possess a 'skillset' for which this economy will have very little use for for some time to come.

doomedtofail

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/qnhs_educationalattainment.pdf

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

What relevance does it have where they come from? If they are citizens of an EU member state then they are free to be unemployed anywhere they choose within the EU, prerequisites covered of course. Why on earth should I care if someone has to move back to x? Do you think any Australian gives a toss, nor should they, when the Irish can't find work in Australia as is now the case and have to return home? I care about this country balancing its books.

so you think it is reasonable for someone who moved here in 2002, with a family, to up sticks and leave Ireland, taking their kids out of school, leaving the home they bought (Which is probably in negative equity by now) and saying goodbye to their friends the second they lost their job?

Get real, these are human beings with families we are talking about here.

doomedtofail wrote: »

I would ask you what your thoughts are on a possible solution but having read your last post I'd actually rather you didn't if it were to be of similar sentimental mush as above.

To paraphrase Dr.Barrett from the ESRI - it was good for Ireland when the jobless immigrants returned home.

its not sentimental mush, it is reality. When you leave your parents home you will probably understand better. The solution is simple, ireland manages it's economy properly and provides employment for all.

doomedtofail wrote: »

Now why do you think someone with far greater access to statistical information on such demographics than I, or it would appear, you would have reason to conclude such a thing?

of course it is better when unemployed immigrants leave, it is better when unemployed Irish people leave as well, just like it is better for the HSE when people die in a road accident rather than just get seriously injured. its called "Stating the Bleedin Obvious".

The best thing that could happen to this country at the moment, is for 50% of the civil service to **** off to Australia, but it isn't going to happen.

Ireland needed immigrants so it welcomed them in, you can't just turn around to these people now and say "We've milked you for all you are worth, now **** off from whence you cometh".

doomedtofail

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When you leave your parents home you will probably understand better

I think you've let yourself down Fratton Fred. I really do. I'm sorry you couldn't rise above the level of delivering petty insults. It's probably best you don't read my responses if it brings you to this level of antagonism.

Scofflaw

Can we keep it a little more peaceable in here? FrattonFred, if you don't know that doomedtofail actually lives at home with his/her parents, please don't come out with that kind of thing.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

I think you've let yourself down Fratton Fred. I really do. I'm sorry you couldn't rise above the level of delivering petty insults. It's probably best you don't read my responses if it brings you to this level of antagonism.

accusing someone of posting "Sentimental Mush" is pretty insulting TBH.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Can we keep it a little more peaceable in here? FrattonFred, if you don't know that doomedtofail actually lives at home with his/her parents, please don't come out with that kind of thing.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Noted. See above.

djpbarry

doomedtofail wrote: »

There's no way of telling what percentage of that 80,000 or indeed the approx 500,000 total are deemed to be 'highly skilled'...

Indeed we do not. But in the event that there are a significant number of skilled individuals in this country who are currently unemployed (which seems likely), it would be incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion, to turf them out of the country (or did you have another course of action in mind?) in order to balance the books, regardless of their nationality.

I'd also add that it is not absolutely necessary for an individual to possess a third-level qualification (or any other qualification) in order for them to be capable of making a positive contribution to the economy.

doomedtofail wrote: »

What relevance does it have where they come from?

None whatsoever, but you're the one focusing on the contingent of the unemployed population who hail from beyond our borders.

doomedtofail wrote: »

We all know how non-discriminatory the axe has fallen this past year on both native and migrant alike, but I still would be quite confident that statistically the majority of those 80,000 will possess a 'skillset' for which this economy will have very little use for for some time to come.

And the question of what you want to do about it still remains unanswered.

Let's not forget about the 360,000-odd Irish nationals on the live register – what do you want to do about that (presumably useless, to extend your logic) lot?

doomedtofail

djpbarry wrote: »

Indeed we do not. But in the event that there are a significant number of skilled individuals in this country who are currently unemployed (which seems likely), it would be incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion, to turf them out of the country (or did you have another course of action in mind?) in order to balance the books, regardless of their nationality.

Where on earth did I suggest we "turf", as you so eloquently put it, anybody out of the country?

djpbarry wrote: »

I'd also add that it is not absolutely necessary for an individual to possess a third-level qualification (or any other qualification) in order for them to be capable of making a positive contribution to the economy.

Who would suggest otherwise? Have you attended Fred Fratton's School of "Statin' the Bleedin' Obvious" Thought? I merely stated that "statistically the majority of those 80,000 will possess a 'skillset' for which this economy will have very little use for for some time to come".

djpbarry wrote: »

None whatsoever, but you're the one focusing on the contingent of the unemployed population who hail from beyond our borders.

Yes indeed in the context in which Fratton Fred originally made the point; it doesn't matter where they are from in the EU. Obviously non-EU is an entirely different argument.

djpbarry wrote: »

Let's not forget about the 360,000-odd Irish nationals on the live register – what do you want to do about that (presumably useless, to extend your logic) lot?

Presuming something as an element of logical conclusion?...isn't that an example of what they call an oxymoron?

Enlighten me...

djpbarry

doomedtofail wrote: »

Where on earth did I suggest we "turf", as you so eloquently put it, anybody out of the country?

You didn’t. In fact, you’ve suggested precious little, which leaves this thread looking just like any other in the “De forenerz iz taken ar’ jobz/benefitz” category.

So I’ll ask again; what do you want to do about it?

doomedtofail

djpbarry wrote: »

You didn’t.

Ahh to err is human, to forgive is divine. Let this be the last time I have to make you admit you were wrong publicly.

djpbarry wrote: »

In fact, you’ve suggested precious little, which leaves this thread looking just like any other in the “De forenerz iz taken ar’ jobz/benefitz” category.
So I’ll ask again; what do you want to do about it?

I wasn't sure if you were in the least bit interested in what I had to say but instead would rather presume logical conclusions (whatever that means in your lexicon) or fall back on any of the following responses from the jaded liberal canon

* Da tuk aar jaaabbbss
* I don't know how to engage in debate so I'm just going to label you a racist
* You're just an anti-immigrant ranter
* Go back to Stormfront/Daily Mail etc.
* The Irish travelled to Australia, US, UK etc. why shouldn't we reciprocate?
* What about concentrating on all the Irish layabouts first?

God stick up for yourself man. This at best makes you look tired of ideas and at worst a resuscitator of hackneyed rhetoric. In the few posts there have been on this thread I've been on the receiving end of some of the above. How can we expect to have an honest debate on this issue if people by default resort to slinging a series of bumbling catechisms at the first chance they get?

I began this thread with a question not with an answer. Personally, the words 'horse' and 'bolted' come to mind, although that would be expected you may think from someone of my disposition.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - someone with over 4000 posts on this forum should have something incisive to say on this topic (or any other I would hope). All those threads, posts, debates and points scored should have rubbed off on you by now. So bask us in your infinite wisdom...what exactly do you suggest?

Or maybe someone here from the liberal agenda can explain to me in concise terms why our inept government has issued a staggering amount of PPS numbers since Jan 1st 2009 to non-EEA citizens when we already have a devastating number of persons on the Live Register?

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx

In black and white terms you should be able to grasp - every 1,000 people added to the dole queue costs the State another €21 million. If the current trends hold up then we will have close to 100,000 immigrants by the end of the year to maintain at Public Expense. Unsustainable folly of the highest extreme.

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - someone with over 4000 posts on this forum should have something incisive to say on this topic (or any other I would hope). All those threads, posts, debates and points scored should have rubbed off on you by now. So bask us in your infinite wisdom...what exactly do you suggest?

The problem is, immigration has been discussed about ten thousand times onthis forum and is usually instigated very much in a "chuck out the immigrants and everything would be alright" sort of way and usually ends up with the OP proclaiming that they have had enough of the way immigrants are given free cars, houses, horses etc and announcing they are off to Australia.

Ireland became a modern, cosmopolitan country and welcomed in immigrants, as most modern wealthy countries do, but you can't have it both ways, there was a labour shortage now there is a job shortage which came about very quickly. Immigrants came to Ireland and a lot have lost their jobs and have claimed unemployment benefit of one sort or another. That is a fact of life I'm afraid and you can't expect them to clear off straight away.

Maybe, rather than getting upset with people who disagree with you, you offer some sort of way forward on the subject.

AlekSmart

Ireland became a modern, cosmopolitan country and welcomed in immigrants, as most modern wealthy countries do, but you can't have it both ways, there was a labour shortage now there is a job shortage which came about very quickly. Immigrants came to Ireland and a lot have lost their jobs and have claimed unemployment benefit of one sort or another. That is a fact of life I'm afraid and you can't expect them to clear off straight away.

I can appreciate where Fratton Fred is coming from here,however I shy away from that opening remark.

I think it`s fair to speculate that Modern and Cosmopolitan are two things Ireland did NOT take on board from our brush with the European millieu and the welcome for immigrants could well be said to have been muted.

Whilst I would most certainly kick Irish ass concerning the refusal to embrace those initial and essentially euro-defining values I would be far less critical of the lack of welcome for immigrants.

Sadly,the lack of "welcome" is essentially a Human Nature trait and is present wherever mankind walks the soil.

The major reason why it does not present such a threat in other societies is largely geographic in nature,ie: space to dissemenate and then slowly,oh so slowly assimilate.

Given our Island status and location this was always going to be a difficult one for us.

What did`nt help was the traditional Irish lack-of-a-plan in relation to Immigration vs employment opportunities and ability to cater for the newcomers.

In Immigration,as in Finance,Transport,Energy,Healthcare, we simply winged it in the hope that a) It would simply sort itself out and b) If it did go wrong we would have somebody else (The Brits ?) to blame.

This attitude,which became (and still is) official Government policy cannot be laid solely at the feet of half-witted Politicians but reflects directly back on a nation of disinterested lazy good-timers who even now cling to a forlorn hope of "something coming along".

We repeatedly have to return to our lack of interest in the serious matter of political representation and the Godawful turnouts in Local and National elections since the foundation of the Irish State.

We are a culture which has always demanded firm guidance with little tolerance for deviation and boy,never have we needed it more than NOW !

Our only problem today is that we have eaten all our young,drank all of our golden mead,burnt all of our turf and tainted all of our water in some forlorn attempt to prove our wild-Irish-Rover status,leaving us a worthless hulk adrift on the European sea issuing our mayday call and hoping for a salvage tug to haul us into safe-harbour.

The blame my friends lies with US.

doomedtofail

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The problem is, immigration has been discussed about ten thousand times onthis forum and is usually instigated very much in a "chuck out the immigrants and everything would be alright" sort of way and usually ends up with the OP proclaiming that they have had enough of the way immigrants are given free cars, houses, horses etc and announcing they are off to Australia.

Well no Fred the problem for me, generally speaking, is liberal bigotry that is only too quick to force an agenda down people's throats.

On the face of it, people (myself included) do not oppose mass immigration on the grounds of race etc., though they do oppose it on the grounds of sound economics; something I wanted to highlight when I began this thread. Immigration can be a wonderful thing but, on the flip side, a disaster when it is not managed properly and that is something we can clearly see today.

I have not once suggested on this thread that anybody should be "turfed" out or "expect them to clear off straight away" so I do wish you and others would stop suggesting that. It's getting quite tedious and merely shows that you haven't grasped my point at hand:

1) The economic benefit of mass-immigration to this country over the long term is severely suspect
2) 80,000 immigrants are already on the dole. Another approx. 34,000 have arrived since 1 January. The incompetence of the FF partnership doesn't have the courage to stem the inward unsustainable tide when almost every other EU country has done so.

Scofflaw

I see I've already issued a handbag warning in this thread. This time, I'd like to point out to doomedtofail that ridiculing everyone else's position as "liberal bigotry" will rapidly render your username ironic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being a Liberal, let alone a liberal bigot

A country needs immigration, just like a company needs a certain level of staff turnover. New blood, new ideas and plugging gaps in the skill base etc, so stopping immigration is not wise.

You may criticise the governments immigration policy, but Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards cheap labour so the cheap foreign workers helped keep ireland competitive and keep inflation under control.

To be honest, if you really want to criticise a government policy that has contributed to mass immigration and high unemployment, blame the rediculously high minimum wage here compared to the rest of europe.

doomedtofail

Scofflaw wrote: »

I see I've already issued a handbag warning in this thread. This time, I'd like to point out to doomedtofail that ridiculing everyone else's position as "liberal bigotry" will rapidly render your username ironic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

lol...nice touch...duly noted

doomedtofail

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being a Liberal, let alone a liberal bigot

Sigh...read my post again. As Scofflaw so succinctly pointed out correctly - "ridiculing everyone else's position as "liberal bigotry"..." proves yet again you've got it wrong - I didn't refer to you as a liberal, let alone a liberal bigot.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A country needs immigration, just like a company needs a certain level of staff turnover. New blood, new ideas and plugging gaps in the skill base etc, so stopping immigration is not wise.

No but controlling immigration is generally considered to be

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You may criticise the governments immigration policy, but Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards cheap labour so the cheap foreign workers helped keep ireland competitive and keep inflation under control.

I can only assume you've mixed yourself up here and meant to say "Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards labour so the cheap foreign workers..."

I'm afraid you're going to have to elaborate here Fred. Ireland's net exports continued to fall, indicating a lack in competitiveness while we were concentrating over the past decade in importing foreign persons to build houses for other foreign persons, thereby getting rich off selling these eyesores to one another and not from our competitiveness on the world stage.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016674.shtml

Fratton Fred wrote: »

To be honest, if you really want to criticise a government policy that has contributed to mass immigration and high unemployment, blame the rediculously high minimum wage here compared to the rest of europe.

Lower the minimum wage and you lower the chances of enticing people off the social welfare. This digression is not what I wished to discuss when I originally created this thread. While we're awaiting djpbarry's response, should it ever arise, perhaps you could field your thoughts on the points raised above:

1) The economic benefit of mass-immigration to this country over the long term is severely suspect
2) 80,000 immigrants are already on the dole. Another approx. 34,000 have arrived since 1 January. The incompetence of the FF partnership doesn't have the courage to stem the inward unsustainable tide when almost every other EU country has done so.

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

I can only assume you've mixed yourself up here and meant to say "Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards labour so the cheap foreign workers..."

No cheap labour. Ireland had it in abundance, but no longer. To be competitive, a country needs cheap labour.

doomedtofail wrote: »

I'm afraid you're going to have to elaborate here Fred. Ireland's net exports continued to fall, indicating a lack in competitiveness while we were concentrating over the past decade in importing foreign persons to build houses for other foreign persons, thereby getting rich off selling these eyesores to one another and not from our competitiveness on the world stage.

absolutely correct. Where Ireland ****ed up big time was that the cheap labour was building obsolete property with an ever inceasing value, thereby making Ireland look a lot wealthier than it actually was.

doomedtofail wrote: »

lower the minimum wage and you lower the chances of enticing people off the social welfare. This digression is not what I wished to discuss when I originally created this thread. While we're awaiting djpbarry's response, should it ever arise, perhaps you could field your thoughts on the points raised above:

1) The economic benefit of mass-immigration to this country over the long term is severely suspect
2) 80,000 immigrants are already on the dole. Another approx. 34,000 have arrived since 1 January. The incompetence of the FF partnership doesn't have the courage to stem the inward unsustainable tide when almost every other EU country has done so.

Personally i would lower the Social Welfare as well.

The economic benefit of Immigration was suspect, for the reason I quote above. it helped create and fuel the property bubble. All the time the property bubble was expanding, people were building more houses, attracting more immigrants and increasing the demand for property. it was a self fulfilling event. The **** up came not with controlling immigration, but by badly managing the property bubble. In the meantime, minimum wage was constantly going up so irish people could afford to buy these properties (and ensure voes for FF) and rent them out to more immigrants. This just had the net effect of Dell, Intel and all the other Multinationals suddenly deciding Ireland was too expensive.

Yes, there are 80,000 immigrants on the dole (I was one for three months last year and believe me, it ain't fun) but that is now just a fact of life. most of the economic migrants, the ones who came over for 12 months to mix plaster, have gone, the ones that are left are the ones that came over with family and have bought a house. They aren't going anywhere in a hurry and rather than moaning about it, Ireland needs to accept it as one of hte nagovers of the celtic Tiger.

immigration will slow down now though because there isn't any work here anymore and countries like Poland are the new tiger economies.

doomedtofail

Well said Sir...

davidr10

Fratton Fred
Agree, but 50% of the public sector to f off to oz, Think the Australian Government may have a problem with that amount of spent meat turning up at their door. Could we not have the cull here. Do we have to ship all our waste abroad. Think of the carbon footprint.