Does the EU have a secret deal with our government?

hobochris

I put this in Conspiracy Theories as there is no real founding for it yet..

Anyway was thinking: Would it be possible that the EU have agreed on a secret deal with FF that if they get Lisbon passed the EU will cover the costs of the debt nama will incur on the tax payer but without the tax payer knowing. Leaving The government(well FF) and their developer friends to profit nicely off of nama !?

Anyone think there is any weight behind this theory or is my imagination getting the better of me?

3DataModem

hobochris wrote: »

I put this in Conspiracy Theories as there is no real founding for it yet..

Anyway was thinking: Would it be possible that the EU have agreed on a secret deal with FF that if they get Lisbon passed the EU will cover the costs of the debt nama will incur on the tax payer but without the tax payer knowing. Leaving The government(well FF) and their developer friends to profit nicely off of nama !?

Anyone think there is any weight behind this theory or is my imagination getting the better of me?

I'd say that the converse is true - the EU have a public deal with FF that if the Lisbon treaty is NOT ratified that they will reduce their support (both financial and otherwise) for the Irish economy (including NAMA).

ilivetolearn

3DataModem wrote: »

I'd say that the converse is true - the EU have a public deal with FF that if the Lisbon treaty is NOT ratified that they will reduce their support (both financial and otherwise) for the Irish economy (including NAMA).

Yep, intimidation and few pieces of silver rather collaboration.

Kernel

If they had such a deal, the EU would have stepped in and sorted out the economy and appearing as our benefactor in order to have the treaty ratified. I'd say they were keeping an eye on opinion polls in order to decide on a course of action (if any).

The reason our politicians are pro-Treaty is because they realise their place in the NWO. A small state in a bigger bloc, filled with superstates like Germany.

Torakx

yes at least in the nwo the leading politicians will have much more immunity than a smaller society like ireland alone.alot of focus would switch to europe i think.

drunken_munky52

Reject the political system... Europe is a company... it thinks exactly like one... profit before people.

Torakx

problem is there isnt afaik a much better solution to democracy.

the only one ii have been postive toward is jaque fresco's venus project.
i like the idea,but think it would be near impossible to integrate into an extremely ignorant and damaged society.

i was takign a quick look into anarchism but im just going to guess its flawed in some way like the other ones.

i would say the eu power players do have some deals setup.
id guess the central bank being a major part of it for ireland.

An Fear Aniar

There's definitely something suspicious going on with the EU - it's showing a distinctly authoritarian anti-democratic streak in recent years.

All these canceled, postponed and ignored referendums all over Europe are very disturbing... yet not one politician from any of the major parties in Europe seems to see anything wrong with it.

It's like they can't be bothered or are in too much of a hurry to hide their agenda anymore.

.

squod

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

There's definitely something suspicious going on with the EU - it's showing a distinctly authoritarian anti-democratic streak in recent years.

All these canceled, postponed and ignored referendums all over Europe are very disturbing... yet not one politician from any of the major parties in Europe seems to see anything wrong with it.

It's like they can't be bothered or are in too much of a hurry to hide their agenda anymore.

.

Correect me if I'm wrong here but I remember people in this country voting no and then some french bloke telling us to vote again , this time differently. Leaders aren't trying to hide anything. They're on TV ,not asking, but telling you how to vote.

meglome

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

There's definitely something suspicious going on with the EU - it's showing a distinctly authoritarian anti-democratic streak in recent years.

Maybe you can point out all the bad things the EU have done here. Like, for example, the 80% of workers rights legislation that have come from Europe over the years. I mean those evil bastards protecting our workers like that.

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

All these canceled, postponed and ignored referendums all over Europe are very disturbing... yet not one politician from any of the major parties in Europe seems to see anything wrong with it.

It's like they can't be bothered or are in too much of a hurry to hide their agenda anymore.

What cancelled referendums would they be? In Ireland our constitution says we must have a referendum on these treaty's but the laws in the other EU country's don't require that. All of these country's voted in Pro-Lisbon parties.

Now not to state the obvious reason as to why people might support a treaty but maybe, just maybe, they like it.

meglome

squod wrote: »

Correect me if I'm wrong here but I remember people in this country voting no...

I remember that too and if they want to they can vote No again. Isn't having more democratic votes more democratic.

squod wrote: »

...and then some french bloke telling us to vote again , this time differently.

Yeah the way that bastard came over here and made us do stuff. Oh wait he didn't. I find it easy to ignore the French president as he has no say over what we do and how we do it. Basically **** him, who cares what he says.

squod wrote: »

Leaders aren't trying to hide anything. They're on TV ,not asking, but telling you how to vote.

Well since the Lisbon treaty is a legal document we can go an read it. And since we can all go and read this public document it would be very hard to hide something I would have thought, impossible really. Go read the condensed version it's not too bad, for a legal document.

4gun

what will hapen if the referendum is returned with another no vote? will we be told to vote again?
we have already given our answer to lisbon why isn't the "will of the people" accepted...
Yes there were some good things that came from the "common market" you can import a car with out paying duty on it, buy your insurance online from germany
see where the Irish minimum wage wil end up (it will more than likely be brought back in line with most other EU countries,The eu has profited more from ireland in the estimated value of our fishing waters somewhere in the region of 350 billion.
either way it wont make one bit of difference to us down at the bottom.....we're only cannon fodder

bcmf

if we vote 'No' we are screwed because the EU will basically say 'fook you' and all we have done for you.We will be basically sent back to...I dont really know how to phrase it.....a nation that will go with begging bowl in hand.
If we vote yes we will be ,imo, we will be welcomed into a society will be treated as a "do as your told and be happy with your lot".
Which is the best/worst evil?

meglome

4gun wrote: »

what will hapen if the referendum is returned with another no vote? will we be told to vote again?

I doubt it but there is no rule that stops that happening. No one is forcing anyone to vote.

4gun wrote: »

we have already given our answer to lisbon why isn't the "will of the people" accepted...

Ah the will of the people... So 25% of the electorate voted No, that means 75% either didn't vote or voted yes so not exactly the will of the people was it? We got legal guarantees that most of the issues people had were... well they weren't in the treaty in the first place. So things have changed but if people want to vote No again they can do that.

4gun wrote: »

Yes there were some good things that came from the "common market" you can import a car with out paying duty on it, buy your insurance online from germany

You have to pay VRT on any car you bring into this country, which is a tax levied by the Irish government.

4gun wrote: »

see where the Irish minimum wage wil end up (it will more than likely be brought back in line with most other EU countries,

The minimum wage is set by the Irish government alone and not the EU.

4gun wrote: »

The eu has profited more from ireland in the estimated value of our fishing waters somewhere in the region of 350 billion.

Where exactly did you dream up these figures? Anyone who thinks the EU haven't been good for this country has been living in a different country to me.

4gun wrote: »

either way it wont make one bit of difference to us down at the bottom.....we're only cannon fodder

Name one actual bad thing the EU has done to Ireland? And please let's make it something you can prove.

meglome

bcmf wrote: »

if we vote 'No' we are screwed because the EU will basically say 'fook you' and all we have done for you.We will be basically sent back to...I dont really know how to phrase it.....a nation that will go with begging bowl in hand.
If we vote yes we will be ,imo, we will be welcomed into a society will be treated as a "do as your told and be happy with your lot".
Which is the best/worst evil?

I imagine a lot of Europeans will point and laugh for the pathetic reasons we voted No. Lisbon makes the EU more efficient which is something we should be all applauding.

4gun

depends, would you rather be master of your own ship or just a passenger, if the treaty isn't ratified in ireland it becomes null they supposidly can't implement it on the continent as a whole so there will be no being left behind
If I'm not correct we're still bound by the maastricht treaty anyway

Torakx

meglome wrote: »

I doubt it but there is no rule that stops that happening. No one is forcing anyone to vote.



Ah the will of the people... So 25% of the electorate voted No, that means 75% either didn't vote or voted yes so not exactly the will of the people was it? We got legal guarantees that most of the issues people had were... well they weren't in the treaty in the first place. So things have changed but if people want to vote No again they can do that.

well we are in the conspiracy theory forums so this theory is very welcome

it looks like your saying and forgive me if i missread,that the last referendum for lisbon was rigged?
if it wasnt rigged and as another said and insinuated if i may say so, it was the democratic "will of the people" then what are you saying?
if its the fact that democracy doesnt work i would wholeheartedly agree.

meglome

4gun wrote: »

depends, would you rather be master of your own ship or just a passenger, if the treaty isn't ratified in ireland it becomes null they supposidly can't implement it on the continent as a whole so there will be no being left behind
If I'm not correct we're still bound by the maastricht treaty anyway

As the master of the tiny ship that is Ireland we could easily get lost at sea. To use your water analogy.

We're still bound by the other treaty's and Lisbon actually improves those. Lisbon actually brings in a mechanism to leave the EU if we wanted to.

Alfasud

It will save the Government embarassment if we vote Yes. Obviously theres something in it for them. Nobody has come on television for a debate on it or to go through it piece by piece with us if its meant to be so important to us. They must have something to hide. They say its going to be good for jobs...HOW??? There are no jobs. :mad:

meglome

Torakx wrote: »

it looks like your saying and forgive me if i missread,that the last referendum for lisbon was rigged?

Not even thinking that.

Torakx wrote: »

if it wasnt rigged and as another said and insinuated if i may say so, it was the democratic "will of the people" then what are you saying?

I'm saying that 25% of the electorate voting No doesn't tell us what the 'will of the people' is, that's all I'm saying. It only tells us what 25% of the voters thought.

meglome

Alfasud wrote: »

It will save the Government embarassment if we vote Yes. Obviously theres something in it for them. Nobody has come on television for a debate on it or to go through it piece by piece with us if its meant to be so important to us. They must have something to hide. They say its going to be good for jobs...HOW??? There are no jobs. :mad:

Our government are a total joke. That has nothing whatsoever to do with Lisbon though. The EU actually warned our government about what they were doing and good ol' democratic Ireland ignored it and here we are.

The debates started tonight on RTE's Prime Time and will go on to just before voting day. There are debates over in the politics forum every day.

It's a legal document, any of us can read it. How the hell can they hide anything?

Run_to_da_hills

I reckon the EU and Irish Government are currently in bed together racking each others brains and concocting ideas on how to sway a YES result in the forthcoming referendum.

They were definitely in on it together with the Referendum Commission on their little booklet. As you should know, this booklet was supposed to be a non bias synopses of the Treaty specifically designed for the layman so that it could be read and digested in 30 minutes.

Is a wonder that it can be read in 30 minutes, they deliberately omit some of the most crucial components of the official document so that they can deceive the common man that wishes to read it hoping for a YES vote. This is all national Propaganda scam and must be challenged IMMEDIATELY.!!!!

4gun

meglome wrote: »

As the master of the tiny ship that is Ireland we could easily get lost at sea. To use your water analogy.
true but at least the dicision is ours
there are toomany negatives associated with lisbon, there no direct answers coming form government only "political speak" and what's really wrong is that Irish people are now more educated and too intelligent to be fooled by it

4gun

meglome wrote: »

As the master of the tiny ship that is Ireland we could easily get lost at sea. To use your water analogy.

and can we assume that you would rather be a passinger.....

Torakx

meglome wrote: »

Not even thinking that.



I'm saying that 25% of the electorate voting No doesn't tell us what the 'will of the people' is, that's all I'm saying. It only tells us what 25% of the voters thought.

but such is the way of this system we are in. if the government dont like the system they are losing to.im sure they will try change it "for the better"

meglome

4gun wrote: »

true but at least the dicision is ours

Yes and we've made so many good decisions. :mad: I'm still waiting to hear what the EU are making us do.

4gun wrote: »

there are toomany negatives associated with lisbon, there no direct answers coming form government only "political speak" and what's really wrong is that Irish people are now more educated and too intelligent to be fooled by it

What negatives? I'm sure you can list the exact ones from the treaty, right? Who exactly is using political speak? You can name them I'm sure?
Maybe you're trying to fool me?

meglome

4gun wrote: »

and can we assume that you would rather be a passinger.....

I like what the EU has done for Ireland. You haven't been able to tell me anything they've done bad.

4gun

I'm saying that 25% of the electorate voting No doesn't tell us what the 'will of the people' is, that's all I'm saying. It only tells us what 25% of the voters thought.[/quote]

there was more than 25% of the electorate attendance in the last referendum
It has to be some thing like 30-something to be valid and it had been deemed valid

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I reckon the EU and Irish Government are currently in bed together racking each others brains and concocting ideas on how to sway a YES agenda in the forthcoming referendum.

And you've got some way to back this up? To be honest that was rhetorical question because you never back up the stuff you say.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They were definitely in on it together with the Referendum Commission on their little booklet. As you should know, this booklet was supposed to be a non bias synopses of the Treaty specifically designed for the layman so that it could be read and digested in 30 minutes.

Is a wonder that it can be read in 30 minutes, they deliberately omit most of the crucial components of the official document so that they can deceive the common man that wishes to read it hoping for a YES vote. This is all national Propaganda scam and must be challenged IMMEDIATELY.!!!!

Now this is utter and total rubbish. But believe what you want as you always do. You see if you start off with a certain bias and the Referendum Commission don't agree with you then it's easy to assume they are themselves biased. But all your doing is exercising your own prejudices.

meglome

4gun wrote: »

there was more than 25% of the electorate attendance in the last referendum
It has to be some thing like 30-something to be valid and it had been deemed valid

50 odd % voted and 54% of those voted No. So 25%(ish) of the electorate voted No. The maths are not completely accurate but close enough. So no you don't need 30 odd %.

4gun

meglome wrote: »

I like what the EU has done for Ireland. You haven't been able to tell me anything they've done bad.

350 billion worth of fishing waters... thats a hell of a lot more than we got from them
and lisbon isn't about what they have done,its what they want to do simple as that
I used to be all for the EU and al that, but I'm Irish and Iwas to stay Irish. And our little cabbage haggart will be swallowed up by the superstate EU

Gardalover

ilivetolearn wrote: »

Yep, intimidation and few pieces of silver rather collaboration.

Here the same , i think there must be a illigal reason for a revote ,
there for it could be possible that there is some kind of big deal
made and that its going to be now a big yes.

4gun

meglome wrote: »

50 odd % voted and 54% of those voted No. So 25%(ish) of the electorate voted No. The maths are not completely accurate but close enough. So no you don't need 30 odd %.

it was still a majority of 4% or do you believe that the minority should win.
What I meant was the total number of voters that turned out to vote as a percentage of the total electorate.It has to be (i'm not sure) 36% or something

ilivetolearn

Gardalover wrote: »

Here the same , i think there must be a illigal reason for a revote ,
there for it could be possible that there is some kind of big deal
made and that its going to be now a big yes.

It's certainly doesn't feel democratic.

meglome

4gun wrote: »

350 billion worth of fishing waters... thats a hell of a lot more than we got from them

You got this number from?

Run_to_da_hills

I fully support a Europe of Independent Democratic Co-Operating Nation States as what the Common Market started out to be when we joined in 1973.

I totally oppose an orwellian superstate with its own battle group which is exactly what lisbon is setting up the EU to be.

meglome wrote: »

And you've got some way to back this up? To be honest that was rhetorical question because you never back up the stuff you say.



Now this is utter and total rubbish. But believe what you want as you always do. You see if you start off with a certain bias and the Referendum Commission don't agree with you then it's easy to assume they are themselves biased. But all your doing is exercising your own prejudices.

Only half of the booklet, three pages, is devoted to some of the changes that would be made by the Lisbon Treaty, while the remaining three pages are given over to the Government’s “assurances”, even though they form no part of the Treaty (In otherwords padding)

The booklet makes absolutely no attempt to inform people how the Irish Constitution would be affected by the proposed Constitutional Amendment, as is required by the terms of the Referendum Act:
For example, that Lisbon would establish a constitutionally new European Union, with its own legal personality, which would be separate from and superior to its Member States for the first time, as is evident from the second and third sentences of the proposed Amendment above; that this post-Lisbon Union would replace the existing European Community which Ireland joined in 1973 and which would go out of legal existence; that this post-Lisbon EU would make well over half our laws each year, would sign Treaties with other States in all areas of its powers, would have its own diplomatic service and voice at the United Nations and conduct itself as a State in the international community of States etc.

There is no attempt to tell people that they would be given a real “additional” citizenship of this Federal State-like entity, on top of their national citizenship, instead of the purely symbolical and notional EU “citizenship” of today, which is stated under the current Treaties to be “complementary” to national citizenship - a legally meaningless term. Being given an “additional” citizenship is no small matter, for one can only be a citizen of a State and all States must have citizens Š Or that this citizenship would entail EU citizens’ rights and duties vis-a-vis the post-Lisbon European Union, which would be superior to one’s rights and duties as an Irish citizen in any case of conflict between the two, with the many implications of such a major constitutional change.

http://www.nationalplatform.org/

4gun

]

meglome wrote: »

You got this number from?

It was on an EU report I read some while ago I tried to find it but that might take forever
Instead I got this for you, its an an OECB report on Irish fishing and it worth to the Irish economy Bear in mind that we now share our traditional waters with Spanish and Portuguese boats who have much bigger fleets than we do
But even take the Irish figure alone over a 10 year period you get some big numbers


www.oecd.org/dataoecd/11/9/34429567.pdf


blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brunowaterfield/4679155/On_Dublins_streets_with_irish_antiEU_treaty_protesters/

Torakx

lol i used the over fished waters as a negative on the political forums but that didnt seem to fly for some reason.
i guess more truth in conspiracy forums these days ^^

meglome

4gun wrote: »

]
It was on an EU report I read some while ago I tried to find it but that might take forever
Instead I got this for you, its an an OECB report on Irish fishing and it worth to the Irish economy Bear in mind that we now share our traditional waters with Spanish and Portuguese boats who have much bigger fleets than we do
But even take the Irish figure alone over a 10 year period you get some big numbershttp://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/11/9/34429567.pdf

I don't have the figures but let's look at what you posted for a moment. The landed value of the catch in 2001 was €206 million. Due to over fishing the numbers have being going down so the most it's likely to be over ten years is just over 2 billion. So what you're trying to tell me is that foreign boats have taken in 175 times more fish than the Irish boats. Seriously that's just plain fantasy.

Scofflaw

4gun wrote: »

350 billion worth of fishing waters... thats a hell of a lot more than we got from them
and lisbon isn't about what they have done,its what they want to do simple as that
I used to be all for the EU and al that, but I'm Irish and Iwas to stay Irish. And our little cabbage haggart will be swallowed up by the superstate EU

€350 billion? Even COIR are only alleging €200 billion - and even that is out by a factor of nearly 20.

The real figure is about $12 billion from all Irish waters since 1973, of which the other EU nations have had $6.7 billion, and we've had $3.5 billion - the rest has been snaffled by people like Russia, and Spain before they joined the EU.

You can check the figures here - click on the "Show tabular data" under the graph.

No problem with people objecting to the other EU countries having had more of our fish than us (although our share has been rising since we joined), but the hundreds of billions stuff is just baloney - as is this myth that most of the EU's fish comes from Irish waters. 8% of the EU's catch comes from Irish waters - about 3 times as much comes from UK waters, which is hardly surprising, given their waters are three times as big, and almost exactly the same environmentally. And yes, we fish in their waters - taking about €157m out of them annually, which is nearly as much as we take from our own.

cordially,
Scofflaw

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I totally oppose an orwellian superstate with its own battle group which is exactly what lisbon is setting up the EU to be.

Name just one thing the EU has forced anyone in the EU to do?

meglome

And one more thing that is important to note the EU has given us €41 billion (net) since we joined.

http://www.finance.irlgov.ie/documents/publications/other/BES2008.pdf

See Table 10

Very nice of our evil overlords to keep giving us free money and they let us export all our goods to them too, bastards.

(Thanks to Scofflaw for directing me to that document)

4gun

but forein trwlers have a bigger quota in our own waters We from what i can gather hav only 4% of the total number of fish caught in irish waters
look its as simple as this, simce we have joined the EU we have given away more value in fishing stock than we have revieved in subsidies /and do you honestely believe that rich countries pump money into small poor countries with out getting a return for theit investment if your that naive..... nothing can be done for you

meglome

4gun wrote: »

but forein trwlers have a bigger quota in our own waters We from what i can gather hav only 4% of the total number of fish caught in irish waters

In the early days we caught a lot less but now we take a lot more, which you can see from the chart.

So let's work this out, the total for the EU is $6.7 billion and we've had $3.5, which off the top of my head is about 50% and not 4% as you're claiming.

So let's take $6.7 billion in Euro, which is €4.7 billion. And let's subtract that from the €41 billion the EU have given us, which leaves €36.3 billion. Now unless I'm missing something we've had a monster cheque of free money from the EU, those bastards.

4gun wrote: »

look its as simple as this, simce we have joined the EU we have given away more value in fishing stock than we have revieved in subsidies /and do you honestely believe that rich countries pump money into small poor countries with out getting a return for theit investment if your that naive..... nothing can be done for you

So now that you've been shown to be completely mistaken, what now, a Yes vote?

Although feel free to show me what they got out of it other than an open market to trade in, which was the whole initial point of the EU.

4gun

Scofflaw wrote: »

€350 billion? Even COIR are only alleging €200 billion - and even that is out by a factor of nearly 20.

The real figure is about $12 billion from all Irish waters since 1973, of which the other EU nations have had $6.7 billion, and we've had $3.5 billion - the rest has been snaffled by people like Russia, and Spain before they joined the EU.

You can check the figures here - click on the "Show tabular data" under the graph.

No problem with people objecting to the other EU countries having had more of our fish than us (although our share has been rising since we joined), but the hundreds of billions stuff is just baloney - as is this myth that most of the EU's fish comes from Irish waters. 8% of the EU's catch comes from Irish waters - about 3 times as much comes from UK waters, which is hardly surprising, given their waters are three times as big, and almost exactly the same environmentally. And yes, we fish in their waters - taking about €157m out of them annually, which is nearly as much as we take from our own.

cordially,
Scofflaw

meglome wrote: »

In the early days we caught a lot less but now we take a lot more, which you can see from the chart.

So let's work this out, the total for the EU is $6.7 billion and we've had $3.5, which off the top of my head is about 50% and not 4% as you're claiming.

So let's take $6.7 billion in Euro, which is €4.7 billion. And let's subtract that from the €41 billion the EU have given us, which leaves €36.3 billion. Now unless I'm missing something we've had a monster cheque of free money from the EU, those bastards.



So now that you've been shown to be completely mistaken, what now, a Yes vote?

Although feel free to show me what they got out of it other than an open market to trade in, which was the whole initial point of the EU.

how come you take his /her figures for fact ...did you ask him where he got them and to prove their validity...hmm,
and I havnt been proven wrong, not by you any way
I'm sorry for you meg. but your mind is closed to other possibilities other that what comes from the establishment:( If I went and got you concrete proof about our fishing, would you even believe it .....I sincerly doubt it, so all i can tell is go look for you self
And again I'm not knocking the eu as it stands I'm just opposed to where its going...NO to lisbon

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

Name just one thing the EU has forced anyone in the EU to do?

They have forced all member states to retain digital records of ALL individuals IP records, service providers, EMail correspondance, text message, mobile phone cell site quordinates, all of which is a total invasion of privacy. Not alone this, they have also made all this personal information freely availible to the US authorities. http://www.ispai.ie/DR%20as%20published%20OJ%2013-04-06.pdf

This is all before any treaty is ratified, IF Lisbon gets through it is going to get a lot worse. :eek:

With Lisbon through We can expect the prompt roll out of the microchipped EU ID card, registered administration access to any PC and of course the compulsory registation of all SIM and IMEI,

meglome

4gun wrote: »

how come you take his /her figures for fact ...did you ask him where he got them and to prove their validity...hmm,
and I havnt been proven wrong, not by you any way

I do because I see him posting in the politics forum every day and his attention to detail, accuracy and honesty are second to none. He's also always willing to back up everything he says with evidence.

The site I posted is the official Irish government one, if they don't know the figures I have no idea who would.

The site scofflaw posted is very reliable as far as I can see too.

http://www.seaaroundus.org wrote:

Overfishing, driven by annual subsidies of about 30 billion US $ per year, has depleted fish populations worldwide, and is compromising ecosystem structure and function. The costs are becoming increasingly unacceptable. For example, the Atlantic cod collapse on Canada’s east coast cost over 4 billion US $ since 1988 in compensation payments to displaced fishers, to say nothing of foregone revenue, job loss, depleted biodiversity, lifestyle and culture. Reversing these trends will require profound changes in policy and management. These changes must be underpinned by research that:

* Documents the ecosystem impact of fisheries and attendant socio-economic loss; and
* Indicates how such impacts may be mitigated and reversed.

The Sea Around Us Project is a world leader in assessing the impact of fishing on marine ecosystems, and in identifying and encouraging ways to mitigate these impacts. We have assembled global databases of catches, distribution of commercial marine species, countries fishing access agreements, ex-vessel prices, marine protected areas and other data, and mapped these. This information, integrated using powerful new analyses, enabled us to show that over-reporting of fish catch masked a global decline in landings, thus fueling a false optimism about future catch increases and the ability to meet UN and other food security targets. We have also shown worrying reductions in the mean size and trophic level of global catches.

Our web-pages at www.seaaroundus.org provide a user-friendly interface with numerous cross-links to maps, taxonomic lists and other useful information. The project uses mapping and graphing as a key tool for visualization of data, and our database and methodologies are used by a large and growing number of international collaborators. Our work is anchored in peer-reviewed scientific literature and conference proceedings, as well as through numerous UBC Fisheries Centre Research Reports.

4gun wrote: »

I'm sorry for you meg. but your mind is closed to other possibilities other that what comes from the establishment:( If I went and got you concrete proof about our fishing, would you even believe it .....I sincerly doubt it, so all i can tell is go look for you self

My mind is open to evidence just not your opinions or assumptions, if you expect me to believe you that is. You've been shown very reliable and detailed figures that show you were mistaken. If you want to post reliable and detailed information of your own that contradicts what has been posted I'll happily read it. Personally I just want the facts whatever they may be. Let me know when it's up.

4gun wrote: »

And again I'm not knocking the eu as it stands I'm just opposed to where its going...NO to lisbon

But Lisbon actually makes the EU more accountable and efficient that's what I find amazing about the stance you're taking. Lisbon gives all the EU states a means to leave the EU if they want, which didn't exist before.

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They have forced all member states to retain digital records of ALL individuals IP records, service providers, EMail correspondance, text message, mobile phone cell site quordinates, all of which is a total invasion of privacy. Not alone this, they have also made all this personal information freely availible to the US authorities. http://www.ispai.ie/DR%20as%20published%20OJ%2013-04-06.pdf

You mean the ministers from the member states approved this. How was anyone forced? It's a different question if we agree with it or not but our government did agree to it.

Didn't they just reject the proposal to make the records available to the US government?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is all before any treaty is ratified, IF Lisbon gets through it is going to get a lot worse. :eek:

Yawn. Lisbon makes the EU more accountable. I'm nearly sure you know a lot of what you post isn't true and yet you still do it, why?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

With Lisbon through We can expect the prompt roll out of the microchipped EU ID card, registered administration access to any PC and of course the compulsory registation of all SIM and IMEI,

So I ask again have the EU ever forced anyone in the EU to do anything?

You can't even give me one real thing can you?

Torakx

i heard something about this recently.
there is a loophole in regard to the us and britain passing info between each other.
i dont know if its the same with europe but it wouldnt suprise me in the least.
btw eircom already are blocking piratebay so get ready for more of that stuff after lisbon.north korea here we come!
also for me the fact our ministers agreed to this makes me more so realise we will lose all help once the lisbon treaty is passed.
if our own government is against us then what chance have we got with them representing the population of this country after stunts like that.
why do we always get corrupt gov officials.makes me wonder if the parties we have to vote for are legit or not.
i dont take part in irish politics at all.so i wont try argue the details. i am just going to vote against lisbon to try slow down the process for these bankers and there lackies.

meglome

Torakx wrote: »

i heard something about this recently.
there is a loophole in regard to the us and britain passing info between each other.
i dont know if its the same with europe but it wouldnt suprise me in the least.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Yeti existed and was living on a beach in Hawaii. Maybe you should supply some evidence for any of this.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

You mean the ministers from the member states approved this. How was anyone forced? It's a different question if we agree with it or not but our government did agree to it.

They had no choice but to comply just like they are forced to agree with the banning of 100 watt incandescent light bulbs since the 1st of September 2009.

meglome wrote: »

Didn't they just reject the proposal to make the records available to the US government?

I'm sure they have access to anything already with all this post 9/11 international anti terrorism leglislation. The US the Authorities are very quick to access PNR details of anyone landing in the States and records go right back. People have also been hauled in and detained for trivial matters. Who passes on this information???. Chipped passports makes the retention and transferring of this personal information a lot more accessible to global authorities..

meglome wrote: »

Yawn. Lisbon makes the EU more accountable. I'm nearly sure you know a lot of what you post isn't true and yet you still do it, why?

It is bloody true and the sooner people wake up and realize that the EU is heading down the slippery slope of been a totalitarian police state the better.

meglome wrote: »

So I ask again have the EU ever forced anyone in the EU to do anything?

You can't even give me one real thing can you?

Apart from survey lance laws which I have already mentioned as you should be aware they have just banned the manufacture incandescent light bulbs of up to 100 Watt, they are foolishly replacing these with deadly poisonous low energy CFL Mercury bubs. :eek:

These bulbs are all fine until they get smashed or careless disposed of and they will. God knows what the factory conditions are like in China where most of these bulbs are manufactured.