She wants kid(s), so do I but I think it's not realistic

Kintarō Hattori

Myself and the missus are considering buying a home after many years of renting. We currently have a very small mortage for an apartment in Poland which will soon run to about €100pm. I'm almost halfway through repaying a €10k loan to the bank as we (she) was certain we should buy some land in Poland. This never happened but the loan is slowly being paid off. We have half of the deposit saved for a house here but my parents will be helping us out with a loan for the rest (10k again). Naturally this will have to be repaid.

So if we get a house we'll have to pay the mortage, about €800 a month, €330 for the bank loan, about €200 initially for the loan to my father, €100 to the bank in Poland. I work full time in the same job for the last seven years. With the recession I've taken a 10% pay cut.
She has worked 4 different jobs in the 5 years we've ben together. She had a great job where she was earning more than me but she eventually left it as one of the people she worked with was quite anti-foreigner and she'd come home crying each night. So now she's working with Ikea where the money is hardly stellar.

The point I'm getting too and I'm sorry the post is somewhat long winded is that we haven't even bought a house yet and she's mentioning that we should start trying for kids within 6 months as she'll be 31 next year. I'd love to have kids but I don't see how we can until both loans are paid off. I don't think it's sensible. Kids are expensive and I really don't think we could afford them when there are several bills which need to be paid off first. What about when she goes back to work and we need to send the kid to nursery school?

I told her this over lunch and it rightly pi**ed her off to the extent that as we were walking towards my office she let it slip that she is not entirely happy with me and considering what she wants.

Am I wrong in being sensible? Would it be stupid to try for a kid when we have loans that need paying? She seems to think that we'll be OK as we're both working and afterall Social Welfare has a million things you can claim for (I don't agree with this but she does).

Should I just stop thinking and have a kid? Man this has really thrown me.

Nevyn

Did ask if she will be going back to work after having the child?
Or does she envision her being a stay at home parent and you being the sole earner for the family?

Kintarō Hattori

Thaedydal wrote: »

Did ask if she will be going back to work after having the child?
Or does she envision her being a stay at home parent and you being the sole earner for the family?

We didn't discuss that Thaedydal but she would need to go back to work as my wage simply wouldn't cover all the bills and then give us a reasonable quality of life.

Nevyn

I think you need to discuss that and soon.

Kintarō Hattori

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think you need to discuss that and soon.

I will as soon as I get home but I'm certain that she knows we both need to work.

shellyboo

I can see where you're coming from and you are taking the sensible option - but you don't have all the time in the world. You say you want kidS, well if you want more than one you'd want to have been having some by now!

It may not be as simple as wham, bam and she's pregnant. It could take months, or longer. If you guys have never tried before then this could be weighing on her mind.

Basically, if you're not ready for kids now, then when? In a year? Two years? Three? You need to give her a timeframe.

Kintarō Hattori

shellyboo wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from and you are taking the sensible option - but you don't have all the time in the world. You say you want kidS, well if you want more than one you'd want to have been having some by now!

It may not be as simple as wham, bam and she's pregnant. It could take months, or longer. If you guys have never tried before then this could be weighing on her mind.

Basically, if you're not ready for kids now, then when? In a year? Two years? Three? You need to give her a timeframe.

I've told her that we'd be better off trying when both loans (bank and to my father) are paid off in two and a half-ish years. I know you're saying that time is against us but we can't simply rush into it because of that. When I say that money would be tight, I mean extremely to the point that I'd be worried about actually paying off bills.

shellyboo

Ok, female perspective? I hear what you're saying and I understand it, but it roughly translates to "money is more important to me than having children".

Now, I'm not accusing you of thinking that, I'm sure you don't. But it may be a case that in three years, it will be extremely difficult for you to conceive. Possibly. And she doesn't want to take that chance, I would imagine. To her it seems like you're putting the debts ahead of her chance to have children.

Essentially though, if she got pregnant tomorrow, you'd manage. And that may be what it comes down to for her.

Again, I'm just specualting as to what may be going through her head.

sundodger5

a wise person once told me that if you were to wait until you can afford Children you would never have them.
It will always be a financial strain. Ask most parents.
But the money will come from somewhere.

Nevyn

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I will as soon as I get home but I'm certain that she knows we both need to work.

That doesn't mean she wants to which is where her statement could be coming from if she has an idea about the type of home/family she expects.

Kintarō Hattori

I hear what you guys are saying but what's the point in having a kid when you would literally just be scraping by? I'd be extremely worried about something unexpected popping up and not being able to cope.

I suggested that we sell the apartment and use the money from that to pay the loans and that went down like a lead balloon. I thought it was sensible. Sell the place and we only really have the mortage to look after, but it wasn't a well received idea.

Nevyn

You need to sit down and find out what exactly she wants in terms of her life plans and
what standard of living she aspires to and what she is willing to do to make that happen.

King of Kings

i don't understand why you feel you need to be in a perfect financial situation to have kids. there is never a right time to have kids, they come along and they fit in to our lives (or we fit into their )

Once you have a place to live I don't see why you shouldn't have kids.
cos you'll never be rich enough or ready enough.

Kintarō Hattori

King of Kings wrote: »

i don't understand why you feel you need to be in a perfect financial situation to have kids. there is never a right time to have kids, they come along and they fit in to our lives (or we fit into their )

Once you have a place to live I don't see why you shouldn't have kids.
cos you'll never be rich enough or ready enough.

It's not a question of being in a perfect financial situation, it's a question of what you can afford.

pickarooney

The logical idea would be to sell the apartment. Why is she so against this idea? Does she plan to live in Poland again soon? Have you proprely discussed that?

Do you think your father would insist on being paid back straight away if it meant money would be too tight to afford a family? I understand if it's important to you to be financially independent of him, that said.

The 'logical' sequence of house->marriage->kids isn't necessarily that. Plenty of people have children while renting.

Kintarō Hattori

pickarooney wrote: »

The logical idea would be to sell the apartment. Why is she so against this idea? Does she plan to live in Poland again soon? Have you proprely discussed that?

Do you think your father would insist on being paid back straight away if it meant money would be too tight to afford a family? I understand if it's important to you to be financially independent of him, that said.

The 'logical' sequence of house->marriage->kids isn't necessarily that. Plenty of people have children while renting.

I'm not sure why but she has mentioned about moving back to Poland. She's never been 100% happy with any of her jobs here and I know she'd ;love to open her own business. Perhaps I'm cautious about having kids as I don't know exactly what our situation will be, will we be living here or in Poland, will she be working the same job or not, what if we buy a house and she wants to move back. Head wrecking.

I haven't worked out any of the finer details with my father. I don't think he'll want to be paid back immediately, I'm sure he'll be gracious but we will need to pay it back. I hated having to ask him.

I understand what you're saying in relation to the sequence of thing. I guess I'm worried. I've had the same job going on for eight years. It's not exactly a laugh a minute but it pays the bills. She isn't dependable. She's had 5 different jobs and there's always something wrong with them. No sooner is she in and she's moaning about how bad it is and how she wished she was still working in the bank etc.

I guess I don't see her as dependable/reliable and I'm worried what will happen if I give into another want/demand.......... ie having kids. She wanted an apartment in Poland, so we did that. She wanted to buy the land in Poland so I took a loan and it never happened. She wanted to leave her well paid job so I stood by her and it's been a struggle ever since. There's a pattern here.

bangersandmash

shellyboo wrote: »

Ok, female perspective? I hear what you're saying and I understand it, but it roughly translates to "money is more important to me than having children".

Strange. To me it translates as "I want to take a responsible approach to parenting and would prefer to raise children in a stable financial environment, rather than relying on family, the state or blind optimism to support them". It's not a common mindset in Ireland. But I don't think the OP is in anyway being selfish in this respect.

That said, OP you are making one major assumption here: that you need to buy before you can have children. I can understand where you're coming from. But if financial security is paramount, buying in the current climate might not be an ideal move. Even though renting in this country can be problematic, it's possible that renting would given you both financial freedom and employment flexibility while you have a young family.

If you do decide to buy you'll have to make sure that your OH understands the implications this will have for both of you. Regularly changing jobs or deciding to move country will probably no longer be an option. As Pickarooney says, selling your apartment sounds like a sensible move before you commit to a large amount of debt.

Kintarō Hattori

Well before she ever mentioned kids she said she wanted a house. We both don't like renting and she's mentioned many many times that she wants a house with a garden. She'll enjoy that and grow vegetables/fruit, something they do alot of in Poland. We've talked about buying somewhere for many years.

Cue further down the line and there's talk of kids, so she wants a house and kids. I realize moving jobs alot isn't a good idea when you have a mortage which is why I'm concerned.

Right 6pm, I'm off home for the discussion of a lifetime. Yay.

Darthhoob

it's probably a bit judgemental of me but.

she wanted and apartment in poland, she got it, but the novelty obviously wore off or something cos you are not there.

she wanted land in poland so you got a huge loan to get it...then she changed her mind

she gets several jobs, and gives them up not long after.

she wants a house here...how long before that will change?

NOW she wants kids......

normally i would be of the opinion that there is never a right time financially to have kids really. but in this situation i dont think money comes into it. i think she should give it some time and SERIOUS thought about whether she really does want kids...or whether it's just the next thing on her list.

you cant give kids back afterall.

goodluck with the talk, and hope i am wrong

Carsinian Thau

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Right 6pm, I'm off home for the discussion of a lifetime. Yay.

Good luck. Hope it goes well.

sunnyside

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I don't know exactly what our situation will be, will we be living here or in Poland, will she be working the same job or not, what if we buy a house and she wants to move back.

She wanted to buy the land in Poland so I took a loan and it never happened.

If you plan on buying a house here you need to be certain that it's a long term plan. For the next few years it will probably be impossible to re-sell it so you will be stuck with the mortgage whether you are living in it or not. It's not that easy to get rental income from empty properties these days either so if there's a chance ye are moving to Poland the last thing you'd want is a property here. Would you earn enough in Poland to cover an mortgage at Irish prices?

If you never bought the land why are you repaying the loan?

Hope the talk went ok.

January

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I told her this over lunch and it rightly pi**ed her off to the extent that as we were walking towards my office she let it slip that she is not entirely happy with me and considering what she wants.

Why is she thinking of having kids if she's not entirely happy with you? If I wasn't entirely happy with the person I was with I'd be focusing on repairing the relationship before we brought a baby into the world!

Or buying a house together for that matter! Imagine the stress of having to buy one or the other out if she did decide down the line that she didn't want to be with you?

Overheal

Which is more important to her right now: a house, or kids? I'd completely understand either choice. But I think you're right in saying it would be hard to imagine both right now.

As Adrieanne is rightly saying, maybe discussing the issue in a marriage counseling session would be better for both of you. 1 on 1's at home always end up in fights might as well have the qualified 3rd party their to listen to your situation in detail and offer their qualified advice to each of you. Again, you both have to remember you love eachother, and thats why you both want to get a house and have kids in the first place. With that in mind: find the compromise point.

LegacyUser

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I guess I don't see her as dependable/reliable and I'm worried what will happen if I give into another want/demand.......... ie having kids.

Don't have kids.

Kintarō Hattori

Well the truth comes out. It seems I'm not a good enough provider. She's annoyed that I don't earn more than I do. She feels that I should earn enough to get and pay for a mortage. I asked her did she not want to work but she said no she did but it should only be part time.

I pointed out that she had a job that paid reasonably, possibly more than my own. She mentioned this was rediculous, her Polish earning more than me. Because I'm Irish I should be earning more it seems.

I was calm, rational and didn't raise my voice. I asked her what she wanted, good job, house and kids in that order. OK I can't do much about the job but we could be on course for the other two. She never mentioned living or working in Poland so I asked why couldn't we sell the apartment to fund the other two............. but I never got an answer.

'You need to think long and hard about what you want. If you feel I'm not earning enough to give you the life that you want then you need to tell me if we have a future'. Five fecking years wasted it looks like. Heh I only got engaged to her earlier this year. I can't believe she could be so cold, calulating and materialistic.

sunnyside wrote: »

If you plan on buying a house here you need to be certain that it's a long term plan. For the next few years it will probably be impossible to re-sell it so you will be stuck with the mortgage whether you are living in it or not. It's not that easy to get rental income from empty properties these days either so if there's a chance ye are moving to Poland the last thing you'd want is a property here. Would you earn enough in Poland to cover an mortgage at Irish prices?

If you never bought the land why are you repaying the loan?

Hope the talk went ok.

Working in Poland wouldn't cover the mortage at all which is why I want her to be certain about what she wants. If we're going to buy somewhere here then it has to be a long term commitment to this country that she makes.

Overheal wrote: »

...As Adrieanne is rightly saying, maybe discussing the issue in a marriage counseling session would be better for both of you. 1 on 1's at home always end up in fights might as well have the qualified 3rd party their to listen to your situation in detail and offer their qualified advice to each of you. Again, you both have to remember you love eachother, and thats why you both want to get a house and have kids in the first place. With that in mind: find the compromise point.

I have brought the idea of counselling up before but it's never something she's gone to. Whenever we have an argument trying to talk to her rationally is usually a waste of time. She shuts up and refuses to talk, somewhat like a little child.

January

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

'You need to think long and hard about what you want. If you feel I'm not earning enough to give you the life that you want then you need to tell me if we have a future'. Five fecking years wasted it looks like. Heh I only got engaged to her earlier this year. I can't believe she could be so cold, calulating and materialistic.




I have brought the idea of counselling up before but it's never something she's gone to. Whenever we have an argument trying to talk to her rationally is usually a waste of time. She shuts up and refuses to talk, somewhat like a little child.

I think that's what you need to do... both take time out and think long and hard what it is you both want. Obviously after hearing all of this today and tonight you've got a different view of what she is like as a person.

thebiggestjim

Darthhoob wrote: »

it's probably a bit judgemental of me but.

she wanted and apartment in poland, she got it, but the novelty obviously wore off or something cos you are not there.

she wanted land in poland so you got a huge loan to get it...then she changed her mind

she gets several jobs, and gives them up not long after.

she wants a house here...how long before that will change?

NOW she wants kids......

normally i would be of the opinion that there is never a right time financially to have kids really. but in this situation i dont think money comes into it. i think she should give it some time and SERIOUS thought about whether she really does want kids...or whether it's just the next thing on her list.

you cant give kids back afterall.

goodluck with the talk, and hope i am wrong

This is my experience generally with polish people I have spent time around aswell, I want this, I want that, I don't get what I want and its everyone else's fault and I don't give a damn what you think. Be careful they are a different breed and there is a lot of calculating going on behind them steely eyes. That been said a very good friend of mine is polish and I would trust him completely, but they are a different breed to us.

Overheal

Five fecking years wasted it looks like. Heh I only got engaged to her earlier this year.

...congratulations!

Honestly though you have to expect your relationship to be stress-tested every now and again. And you're under stress. She's under stress. Life isn't the fantasy we made for ourselves when we were kids. I was meant to be a millionaire doing my business from a laptop. On a yacht. In the Caribbean. That worked out: I have the laptop.

Im just saying try not to resent her or anything.

I'd still call up a good marriage counselor, I'm sure they're well used to helping partners coax their significant others onto the couch. Because who wants to be dragged in by their partner for counseling?

In the mean time: Babies; Mortages; Apartments; Jobs - How very adult of both you I prescribe a good old fashioned malt shoppe date out on the town sometime in the near future. The rules are you arent allowed to discuss any of the above while you're out. You both need a break from your worries.

sparkydee

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I'm not sure why but she has mentioned about moving back to Poland. She's never been 100% happy with any of her jobs here and I know she'd ;love to open her own business. Perhaps I'm cautious about having kids as I don't know exactly what our situation will be, will we be living here or in Poland, will she be working the same job or not, what if we buy a house and she wants to move back. Head wrecking.

I haven't worked out any of the finer details with my father. I don't think he'll want to be paid back immediately, I'm sure he'll be gracious but we will need to pay it back. I hated having to ask him.

I understand what you're saying in relation to the sequence of thing. I guess I'm worried. I've had the same job going on for eight years. It's not exactly a laugh a minute but it pays the bills. She isn't dependable. She's had 5 different jobs and there's always something wrong with them. No sooner is she in and she's moaning about how bad it is and how she wished she was still working in the bank etc.

I guess I don't see her as dependable/reliable and I'm worried what will happen if I give into another want/demand.......... ie having kids. She wanted an apartment in Poland, so we did that. She wanted to buy the land in Poland so I took a loan and it never happened. She wanted to leave her well paid job so I stood by her and it's been a struggle ever since. There's a pattern here.

I've highlighted the above as I think it says a lot about what is going on a the moment-i may be wrong.
But maybe tonight she was still angry over what happened today and I may be simplistic here but that could behind the coldness. Have you ever seen this type of behaviour from her before? Don't be too rash, a lot was said today and when you both look at it from tomorrow hopefully things might seem better. Ye have a lot of issues to work on but don't give up hope.
Best of luck

Piglet85

I hope you don't mind me bringing this up, but I remember a thread of yours about your girlfriend using your leather fetish against you not so long ago, and at the time I was struck by the amount of issues that you appeared to be having. I know that you love this woman, and for that reason I don't want to speak badly of her, but from that post it seemed to me that she is extremely high maintenance, quite manipulative and very fickle. The problems that you outlined there were all things that I think - although perhaps it's naive of me - made me think that you should think very carefully, and get an awful lot of things sorted out, before you'd even consider marrying her. I didn't say it at the time because I sensed that you really wanted things to work and I hoped that they would, but it seems to me that the same problems are still there.

I don't think the money issue is what should stop you from having kids with her anytime soon, I think it's the other problems. She has a ridiculous sense of entitlement and expects to have things handed to her. As you pointed out, every time you give in to her, she finds a new demand. I'm not convinced that she will be satisfied by you having children with her now, and anyway, the very fact of what she has said to you today makes it clear that you shouldn't. If she says that she wants you to have kids with her now,and then more or less threatens to end things because you're not a good enough provider, she quite clearly isn't dependable. If she wanted a baby for the right reasons then she would be absolutely sure of wanting to be with you, regardless of how much money you make.

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but from an outsider's perspective, and taking into consideration the other post as well, I think that there are a lot of things that need to be worked on in your relationship before you'd even dream of making a lifetime commitment like marriage or kids. I do hope it works out well for you though. Good luck!

Moomoo1

Overheal wrote: »

1 on 1's at home always end up in fights might as well have the qualified 3rd party their to listen to your situation in detail and offer their qualified advice to each of you.

They don't always end up in fights. And Eastern Europeans, especially middle class ones, often have a dislike of counselling of any sort. They see it as a bit of a cop-out, a 'western fad'.

Wibbs

While I do understand how she may think considering her stage in life and I also get that kids rarely come along at a convenient time for anyone I have a bit of a worry here.

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

She isn't dependable. She's had 5 different jobs and there's always something wrong with them. No sooner is she in and she's moaning about how bad it is and how she wished she was still working in the bank etc.

I guess I don't see her as dependable/reliable and I'm worried what will happen if I give into another want/demand.......... ie having kids. She wanted an apartment in Poland, so we did that. She wanted to buy the land in Poland so I took a loan and it never happened. She wanted to leave her well paid job so I stood by her and it's been a struggle ever since. There's a pattern here.

Yes there is. This is what jumped out for me. She's not dependable in these things simply because that's not what she wants.

Now I could well be projecting so feel free to take this with a pinch of salt, maybe grab a handful of same, but at a time in my life I was attracted to and enabled women that sound like the picture you're painting here. You could be describing a couple of exes of mine.

Do not get me wrong they were good people and God I was as much a gobshaw as I ever was, but there was one issue that cropped up over and over again. They never settled. Whether it be job, overall career, friends, social outlets, things I did for them etc. It was never enough and any thanks I got were fleeting. So I upped the ante all the time as it is attractive. You feel you're helping. You feel more of a "man" solving the problems of the woman you love. Went from fighting one fire to the next. It never really stopped. I blamed myself at the time and you know I was right, but not in the way I thought at the time. I was enabling this by acceding to their needs(but luckily I never stayed around long enough to be doing it for the quiet life in a dead end marriage). Really bad feedback loop. I realised it would never be enough for them. Me, their job at the time etc. Nobody would.

It damned near did my head in. I had to step back and by god I felt guilty at the time, but I slowly realised that I had to think of myself and my needs, not just theirs. I had to do what I thought was right for me and for the relationship. Both left and I am quite sure repeated the pattern after me with others.

Now of course this is very much IMHO but if I look into my crystal ball this is how I see things; You agree to kids. She has a child. She stays away from work longer than you expect(which is what she wants). You become the primary financial giver. After a while you fight about this. You feel lesser because you will be feeling not only can't you fully provide for her, but you can't fully provide for your child. Pack your bags you're going on a looong guilt trip. She makes a half hearted effort to get a part time job. It doesn't last. She tries again. Again it doesn't last. She ends up pregnant again. There's another year gone. She then wants to move back home(or even she wants to bring in say her mother on a temporary basis to help out). Again you're going to be the person with all the financial burden and any flak that comes with that.

Basically in this case, she's had her career so far, but it was only serious until she settled down. Now she wants to be a housewife and mother. Down the line she may get a part time job, but only after a couple of children have come along. Part time career, part time mothers, part time partners, part time jobs, full time pains in the bum.

That would be my take. The putting out fire after fire I see mirrored in my experience and the "I'm a career woman, but now I want to be a mother and housewife in a manner I wish to become accustomed to" I see mirrored in quite a few mates of mine. They're not the most content men I know(with the exception of one who is 1950's lord, master and father anyway. Well matched).

I also have experience of a helluva lot of women totally unlike that and so do my friends. None of my women mates are like that either, but I have seen enough of that type to say that in my humble and it is my humble that you may have one of those.

As I say maybe take that with a pinch of salt but it's my rambling 2 cents anyway.

Jack B. Badd

shellyboo wrote: »

Essentially though, if she got pregnant tomorrow, you'd manage.

If I had my arm amputated tomorrow, I'd manage. "Managing" isn't really a good enough excuse for not making realistic plans regarding life changing events though.

I've never really understood people who decide to have children when they are well aware that they are not ready (financially, physically, emotionally, etc). Personally I can't empathise with the hormonal thing - I experience all the broodiness of an average stone - but even taking that into account, why would someone want to bring a child into a family/world/life that isn't best prepared to secure its future?

OP, you maintain that your partner isn't dependable and you aren't financially ready to have children despite her "wants". This doesn't seem like an optimum time or situation in which to produce children. If I were in your shoes, I'd really be wondering if it would even be optimum when the financial issues are out of the way. I think you'd end up picking up the pieces after her regardless.

Moomoo1

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I've never really understood people who decide to have children when they are well aware that they are not ready (financially, physically, emotionally, etc).

Really? What about the biological clock? Having a child at 30 who is brought up in a household struggling to make ends meet but healthy would beat having a child at 40 who has rich parents but constant health problems because of the mother's age any day of the week...

Physical health, imho, trumps everything else, even emotional well-being (even though they are of course connected).

implausible

OP, it really doesn't sound like you are both singing from the same hymn-sheet. I can understand both sides - the biological clock and the finances and you're both right, but you seem to have bigger problems than that. A serious desire to settle down with this girl and have children would override your financial concerns.

What's jumping out at me here is the employment issues. People who don't want to work are always dissatisfied. What about your fiancée's family, was she brought up in a very traditional middle-class family where dad earned the money and mammy ran the house? It seems to me like this is what she expects. This is the life she wants. By buying the apartment in Poland, she always has the option of getting you to move. By having children, she can get the type of life she wants (before anyone jumps down my throat, there is nothing wrong with this on its own, but there is something wrong, if only person wants it). Would getting pregnant speed up getting married?

You need to figure out what you want...and soon. If you decide to part, she needs to know quickly to give her time to start again.

Good luck.

Jack B. Badd

I gave a number of reasons regarding not being ready to have children and financial wasn't the only one there. If you're at an age (or have a condition) which is highly likely to have an adverse affect on your potential child's health then you're not ready to have children - though, granted, with age this isn't likely to change.

As for wanting to have a child at 30, all very well and good, but that gives you at least a decade to plan towards that goal.

Physical health is important. But so too is emotional and financial stability for children. Reduction to a "one condition trumps all" situation doesn't benefit anyone, least of all the child.

SheRa

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

She seems to think that we'll be OK as we're both working and afterall Social Welfare has a million things you can claim for (I don't agree with this but she does).

op the mention of social welfare raised red flags for me. she might talk about part time work but i wouldnt be surprised if she soon thinks that you and the social will support her so that she doesn't have to work (baby or no baby).

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I suggested that we sell the apartment and use the money from that to pay the loans and that went down like a lead balloon. I thought it was sensible. Sell the place and we only really have the mortage to look after, but it wasn't a well received idea.

that is a very sensible idea. it sounds to me like she doesn't want to know how the financial side is sorted, only that she wants none of the responsibility but wont let you make the hard decisions either. thats not fair on you. its a lot of pressure.

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I've never really understood people who decide to have children when they are well aware that they are not ready (financially, physically, emotionally, etc). Personally I can't empathise with the hormonal thing - I experience all the broodiness of an average stone - but even taking that into account, why would someone want to bring a child into a family/world/life that isn't best prepared to secure its future?

on one hand i think the people have kids when they aren't fully prepared because they think that they'll manage and will (and usually do) find the money from somewhere and because that maternal /paternal urge gets so strong, but on the other hand like you (or was it another op?), if i ever have kids i dont want to just manage or scrimp.

shellyboo wrote: »

To her it seems like you're putting the debts ahead of her chance to have children.

Essentially though, if she got pregnant tomorrow, you'd manage. And that may be what it comes down to for her.

the debts are all down to her. she wanted the apt, the land etc and now she wants to basically ignore them. op does she pay anything towards the loans?

by the way op you really should talk to you bank about paying back that landloan early, seeing as how you didn't use it. you'll save yourself a fortune on interest.

Moomoo1

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I gave a number of reasons regarding not being ready to have children and financial wasn't the only one there. If you're at an age (or have a condition) which is highly likely to have an adverse affect on your potential child's health then you're not ready to have children - though, granted, with age this isn't likely to change.

As for wanting to have a child at 30, all very well and good, but that gives you at least a decade to plan towards that goal.

Physical health is important. But so too is emotional and financial stability for children. Reduction to a "one condition trumps all" situation doesn't benefit anyone, least of all the child.

that's great, but in practice you have to decide where your priorities lie, what's more or less important. I would say that physical health is more important than emotional or financial stability.

For that reason, I don't think that wanting a child now is a problem. Even wanting to be a housewife isn't a problem (contrary to what Wibbs said). It's her unrealistic expectations of the OP that are the issue here...

SheRa

Moomoo1 wrote: »

that's great, but in practice you have to decide where your priorities lie, what's more or less important. I would say that physical health is more important than emotional or financial stability.

For that reason, I don't think that wanting a child now is a problem. Even wanting to be a housewife isn't a problem (contrary to what Wibbs said). It's her unrealistic expectations of the OP that are the issue here...

ok im not here to defend wibbs, he's well able to do that himself:), but he never said that there was anything wrong with being a housewife, only pointing out that despite what the op's gf told him, he suspects that she wants to give up work altogether and be a housewife. and i agree.

Moomoo1

SheRa wrote: »

ok im not here to defend wibbs, he's well able to do that himself:), but he never said that there was anything wrong with being a housewife, only pointing out that despite what the op's gf told him, he suspects that she wants to give up work altogether and be a housewife. and i agree.

fair enough

Kintarō Hattori

Many thanks for the well thought out replies folks I really do appreciate each and every one. I'm not looking to hear anything in particular just what you have to say good and bad.

She mentioned later tonight that she didn't want to hurt me, didn't want me to be upset and that she loved me. I think I threw her a curve ball when I said I wasn't upset or angry, just confused. In relation to the 'provider' thing and questioning the future I'm getting the feeling that she said that to get at me, rather than having any real meaning to it. Playing games, so far as I can tell which is a load of nonsense.

What I think I've learned so far today is that taking a mortage out now would be a REALLY bad idea, so we should most likely knock that on the head. Kinda lousy seeing as I asked my father for help which was a big thing and now I have to refuse his help. Wonderful.
We (I) need to ascertain where the relationship is going. I know what I want (I'm a simple guy) so I need to figure out what are her priorities and how that will fit in with the relationship.
Certainly I think some counselling would not be a bad idea but I think it'd be a cold day in hell before that ever happens.

Step back, look at all the crap that's happened and figure out where to go from here.

SheRa

take care Kintarō Hattori. remember the relationship is about 2 people, not just her.

shellyboo

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Many thanks for the well thought out replies folks I really do appreciate each and every one. I'm not looking to hear anything in particular just what you have to say good and bad.

She mentioned later tonight that she didn't want to hurt me, didn't want me to be upset and that she loved me. I think I threw her a curve ball when I said I wasn't upset or angry, just confused. In relation to the 'provider' thing and questioning the future I'm getting the feeling that she said that to get at me, rather than having any real meaning to it. Playing games, so far as I can tell which is a load of nonsense.

What I think I've learned so far today is that taking a mortage out now would be a REALLY bad idea, so we should most likely knock that on the head. Kinda lousy seeing as I asked my father for help which was a big thing and now I have to refuse his help. Wonderful.
We (I) need to ascertain where the relationship is going. I know what I want (I'm a simple guy) so I need to figure out what are her priorities and how that will fit in with the relationship.
Certainly I think some counselling would not be a bad idea but I think it'd be a cold day in hell before that ever happens.

Step back, look at all the crap that's happened and figure out where to go from here.

You have your head screwed on Obviously you guys are nowhere near ready to have kids... well done for being able to talk it out and getting to the root of the problem. Best of luck.

Moomoo1

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

seeing as I asked my father for help which was a big thing and now I have to refuse his help

you don't have to refuse his help. Just say that you are postponing the thing by a few years because it's a really bad time to buy now (which is, among other things, the truth). He can still help you when you do get a mortgage...

SarahSassy

All is can see is 'she wants, she wants, she wants,she gets, she wants more, she gets, she wants more'. A bit of a princess in my book who is looking for a rich knight in shining armour to rescue her from the day to day hundrum of working.

You will be tortured trying to keep up with her demands for the rest of your life - I see my cousin doing the same with his wife - bigger house, extension, more kids, holidays, bigger cars etc.. You know what - neither of them are happy.

Wibbs

That would be my worry too TBH. I've seen way too many examples of that and the signs were similar, including the part where they pulled back when they were called on it too. That would be the bigger "game" for me. Hopefully you can work this out.

I think your plan of taking a step back and seeing how things pan out is a good one. I know how difficult it can be when you're in it too. It's very hard to be objective. Very hard and there can be a tendency to snap back the other way and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

How I did it and it sounds a bit daft or even clinical, but I took some time to write down a description, good and bad of the relationship. I tried to be as objective as I could be considering the strong emotions involved. It was then in my case anyway that I saw the pattern to some of their behaviours and indeed mine. Unhealthy on both counts. As I say it seems clinical, but I figured it was as close as I could get to making my concerns concrete. It helped me anyway. Now my outcomes weren't good as far as the relationships were concerned, but I've advised mates of mine, both men and women to do similar and it helped their relationships. Clearly there was more of a healthy core in theirs than in mine.

Just a thought.

PS as SheRa said, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that wanting to be a mother and or housewife was wrong or anyway lesser. My issue is that if one partner is hiding their true wants in a relationship and using dubious tactics to achieve these wants and putting the onus on the other partner, then that's bad. It's dishonest.

santana75

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I hear what you guys are saying but what's the point in having a kid when you would literally just be scraping by? I'd be extremely worried about something unexpected popping up and not being able to cope.

I suggested that we sell the apartment and use the money from that to pay the loans and that went down like a lead balloon. I thought it was sensible. Sell the place and we only really have the mortage to look after, but it wasn't a well received idea.

You are 100% right. If you cant afford to have children then you dont have children, simple as that. Yes there are bilogical urges but urges are just urges, you cant act on every urge you get, logic and reason wil have to come into the picture. I think your girlfriend is being very unreasonable, she's letting her urges rule her completely and not using sense at all. I mean if you cant support a child what is th point in bringing one into the world? The only answer to that would be selfishness. Has she even explained to you the reasons why she wants a child? It sounds like shes being very childish and throwing a tantrum because shes not getting her way. Stick to your guns bro, I think youre 100% right.

sunnyside

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Well the truth comes out. It seems I'm not a good enough provider. She's annoyed that I don't earn more than I do. She feels that I should earn enough to get and pay for a mortage. I asked her did she not want to work but she said no she did but it should only be part time.

I asked why couldn't we sell the apartment to fund the other two............. but I never got an answer.

You don't earn enough for her? I'd like to see how she'd survive without you.

I really don't like the way she's putting you down about what you earn. She knew what you work at when she met you. If it wasn't good enough she shouldn't have got involved then. I'm sure you earn as much as the rest of us. Only a very small percentage of people have a massive income.

It's possible that she doesn't want to sell the apartment in Poland because she likes the idea of owning property and being able to tell other people that she owns property. It sort of buys into the lifestyle she aspires to.

newbie2009

Believe me once you have children no price can be put on your happiness!!Sounds completely airy-fairy in this context but it's true!

dreadlocks

She's being quite unreasonable. Sell the apartment and have babies or don't sell and forego the babies