Prime Time tonight - Lenihan speaks on NAMA

The_Minister

Brian Lenihan will be on Prime Time tonight answering questions that people e-mail in regarding NAMA.

E-mail is: primetime@rte.ie

He's obviously trying to put to bed some of the wilder speculation thats around.

ChocolateSauce

I'll tune in. This will be my RTE viewing for the year!

snubbleste

Eh
Don't expect a grilling or even any answers, it's rté, it will be a softly softly approach

KerranJast

Dear Minister,

Daddy or Chips?

Rgds,
KerranJast.

The_Minister

Anyone wanna bet that he mentions Garath Fitzgerald backing NAMA?

It would be a funny sight to see a FF minister looking to a FG ex-Taoiseach for cover.

The_Minister

KerranJast wrote: »

Dear Minister,

Daddy or Chips?

Rgds,
KerranJast.

? I don't get it?

EDIT: OH!! That Minister :

Wazdakka

The mail's will be so bloody censored that nothing good will get asked.
Even if it does I'd say he gets to see the questions first so he can prepare a response.

Stick him on a live phone in show and then see if the fúcker can deal with the public's questions...

MementoMori

My problem with the whole NAMA thing is that the opponents are simply going around saying No to NAMA but they don't seem to offer any sort of alternative.

Not saying NAMA is great (or good) or even decent - it's just with all the people I've heard giving out about it, no-one seems to offer any sort of alternative.

Rented Mule

I'd like to call in and ask him 'if we are all going to have to tighten our belts....then why are the current Ministers in government getting fatter? '

NAMA is going to be the greatetst scourge on this country since the famine. They are bailing out their friends and business partner and expecting the people (that are left) in the country to pay for their corruption.

Let the entire mess collapse and then sort it out correctly. My only fear is that the exact same people who created the mess are going to be the ones enlisted to (try to) sort it out.

Get the butter and grab your ankles ....FF are coming through.

IvyTheTerrible

What's interesting to me, is that, as far as I can tell, most private (ie not big business/developer) debt won't be covered by NAMA. So yet again, the developers get helped by the government and the ordinary joe gets shafted.

Saadyst

MementoMori wrote: »

My problem with the whole NAMA thing is that the opponents are simply going around saying No to NAMA but they don't seem to offer any sort of alternative.

Not saying NAMA is great (or good) or even decent - it's just with all the people I've heard giving out about it, no-one seems to offer any sort of alternative.

There's alternatives - like temporary nationalisation, to letting the banks collapse (with deposits guaranteed)...

Anyway, the biggest problem with NAMA is they (FF) are wanting to pay speculative prices based on how they predict the property market will grow - and they are hoping it will be a repeat of the 2000s.

Subsidising, bailing out their mates, not seeking to correct the issues that led to this, no reform, allowing the taxpayer to foot the bill for a very long time to come, cut-backs on public spending (health, education, transport)... It's all of these things, when it should be none of these things.

The_Minister

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

What's interesting to me, is that, as far as I can tell, most private (ie not big business/developer) debt won't be covered by NAMA. So yet again, the developers get helped by the government and the ordinary joe gets shafted.

What do you mean?
NAMA is designed to deal with massive bad loans wich could still cripple our banks.
Why would we spend more small loans?
If the loans are defaulted on (as seems likely), the developers will lose just as much as if theie loans were still in the banks possession.

TheBlock

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

What's interesting to me, is that, as far as I can tell, most private (ie not big business/developer) debt won't be covered by NAMA. So yet again, the developers get helped by the government and the ordinary joe gets shafted.

Does the debt not have to be be repaid only not to the original lending bank but to NAMA.

I thought NAMA was buying this "Bad" or Developer Debt off the banks to free up capital to get them in a position to lend again.

Will the developers simply be allowed to walk away from their personaaly guarteed Debt? I assume Ltd Companies can walk away from their debts as normal.

The_Minister

Saadyst wrote: »

There's alternatives - like temporary nationalisation, to letting the banks collapse (with deposits guaranteed)...

Except that the first one doesn't solve the problem, and the second one will cost us far more. And we can't afford it.
The guarentee was a promise we can't deliver.

Saadyst wrote: »

Anyway, the biggest problem with NAMA is they (FF) are wanting to pay speculative prices based on how they predict the property market will grow - and they are hoping it will be a repeat of the 2000s.

Thats because the currant prices are so low that the banks will still be in trouble if pay todays prices. Pay tomorrows, we may still profit on the day after (though not likely), and we don't need to loan the banks more money.

Saadyst wrote: »

Subsidising, bailing out their mates, not seeking to correct the issues that led to this, no reform, allowing the taxpayer to foot the bill for a very long time to come, cut-backs on public spending (health, education, transport)... It's all of these things, when it should be none of these things.

How is it a bailout of their 'mates'?
Taxpayer is paying anyway, NAMA isn't the worst way of doing things (although I think it could be structured better).
cut-backs are what happens when your revenues fall to a third of what they were.

The_Minister

TheBlock wrote: »

Does the debt not have to be be repaid only not to the original lending bank but to NAMA.

I thought NAMA was buying this "Bad" or Developer Debt off the banks to free up capital to get them in a position to lend again.

That is the idea.
Most people commenting on NAMA don't seem to actually know what it's meant to do.
NAMA isn't been arranged correctly IMO, but it isn't as bad as some people seem to think. I can't believe how bad the governments media has been on this.

TheBlock wrote: »

Will the developers simply be allowed to walk away from their personaaly guarteed Debt? I assume Ltd Companies can walk away from their debts as normal.

Ltd companies are still limited AFAIU, but many developers will have given personal guarentees.

Saadyst

The_Minister wrote: »

Except that the first one doesn't solve the problem, and the second one will cost us far more. And we can't afford it.
The guarentee was a promise we can't deliver.

Thats because the currant prices are so low that the banks will still be in trouble if pay todays prices. Pay tomorrows, we may still profit on the day after (though not likely), and we don't need to loan the banks more money.



How is it a bailout of their 'mates'?
Taxpayer is paying anyway, NAMA isn't the worst way of doing things (although I think it could be structured better).
cut-backs are what happens when your revenues fall to a third of what they were.

Actually both methods I mentioned would have the banks taking the brunt of the losses they have incurred, FIRST, and then it would come down to the taxpayer. NAMA reverses this concept and gives all assumption of risk to the taxpayer, and then to the banks/shareholders etc. As Lenihan said: he won't let these banks fall, no matter the cost - I think what he said should have referred to the economy, not these banks.

I understand if NAMA pays the current market value and not the 'magic number', that the banks will end up taking a loss so big that it would cripple or end them. This is a fundamental flaw however: because NAMA paying more than it's worth keeps the prices and values artificially high, so ultimately they are paying more... like a self-fulfilling prophecy. In reality they are not worth as much.

I'm not an economist, but I do know that this is along the lines of what Enron did - their accounts factored in the future speculative values on their deals, which of course did not exist. This made the company books to show they had more money than they actually had - and when it came down to it, they collapsed.... does this sounds really familiar....?

As I said before, the banks/shareholders should assume the maximum possible cost, BEFORE it gets passed onto the taxpayer. Regulation and reform should follow to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Regarding bailout of their mates... see the ACC case vs Liam Carroll.
From the Irish Times:

The Dutch bank said that foreign banks in Ireland had “to take care of themselves” as Government support measures were not available to non-Irish banks. The bank named Nama as one support.

“It is not really possible for non-Irish banks to compete on that market any more,” Rabobank’s chief financial officer Bert Bruggink told reporters yesterday.

Higher bad debts at Rabobank led to a 18 per cent fall in profits to €1.3 billion for the first six months of the year. Mr Bruggink said that Rabobank had decided to reduce its business in Ireland gradually.

NAMA has very little transparency, the values and the formulations of how they will arrive at those values will not be made public - in a nutshell, this beast will be a huge financial black hole which doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone BUT the minister.

I'd say we'd be better off letting them collapse, the shareholders and investors suffer their losses which is the morally correct thing to do. The profitable remnants of the banks can be salvaged then by the taxpayer. I think it would save the taxpayer more money than this great big reach-around.

The_Minister

So what did people think?

El Weirdo

Am I still in AH?

Mary Harney is fat.

soundsham

The_Minister wrote: »

So what did people think?

didn't see the thread till now:(

what was said,

thomond2006

I am convinced politicians attend "How to Avoid Difficult Questions" courses.

panda100

I was sickened.

The likes of millionaire property developers like Liam Carroll who get a bail out for pissing away millions. As someone who is in debt,struggling and working my ass off without a holiday in the last two years to pay off my own debts, with the banks sending me threatening letters/phonecalls every day and I dont get any bail out from Lenihan??
It made me so angry that I threw my shoe at the tv :mad:

Seriously though Brian Lenihan looked stressed and sick,I would not trust this guy with the whole finances of a country!

humberklog

He looked a bit peaky, maybe inherent liver problems.

Pretty unconvincing especially when L. Carroll's possible scenario was used as an example of what may be in store for reckless and connected developers.
Unconvincing and peaky.

amdublin

Is it wrong that I found Brian Lenihan sexy and attractive tonight on PT?

skelliser

he was poor tonight, did sell it at all. there is too much doubt surrounding the whole thing.

i think its safe to say that nama is dead.

FACEPALM

Was it my TV or did Lenihan have blood shot eyes?

Must have had a few smoke to calm the nerves!

skelliser

well i dont envy his position, the man is under serious pressure, this nama thing basically sets out the next 20 years in this country.

amdublin

skelliser wrote: »

well i dont envy his position, the man is under serious pressure, this nama thing basically sets out the next 20 years in this country.

Yeah all that power..............very sexy and attractive

Biggins

The_Minister wrote: »

So what did people think?

Honestly? All kidding aside, we're screwed.

Alessandra

NAMA is going to be a disaster but it's the best we can hope for either way.

pebbles21

FACEPALM wrote: »

Was it my TV or did Lenihan have blood shot eyes?

Must have had a few smoke to calm the nerves!

"Rabbit in your Headlights" come to mind!

mr_edge_to_you

by god did he look fecked! fair play to him. his boss f**ked him at the deep end and by god did he struggle at first but i think he's doing alright now in fairness. it doesn't appear that he's getting much help from his boss , the same person he took over from.

with regard to Nama, whether you think its a good idea or not at least the man is taking action. everyone else is all talk and he's driving this one on. there's no point on sitting on the fence, that not going to change anything. its still a gamble though.

i think he did okay tonight though. he's earned my respect over the last 12 months. he's gotten stuck in and i firmly believe he is doing his damnedest to get us out of a hole which he had very little influence in creating (cowen, ahern, harney).

i wouldn't fancy his job. i think his boss has been a major disappointment.

FlutterinBantam

I would agree with that, he looked bolloxed, licked his lips a lot, but in fairness gave a good performance.

Rented Mule

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I would agree with that, he looked bolloxed, licked his lips a lot, but in fairness gave a good performance.

They must have been dangling a pork chop off in the distance to keep him looking into the camera.

skelliser

i dont buy it, its a ff/developer bail out and we get shafted, extremly shafted.
I will say that he is a good debater, he is after all a solicitor. sorry a barrister
could never understand the difference

Dyr

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

by god did he look fecked! fair play to him. his boss f**ked him at the deep end and by god did he struggle at first but i think he's doing alright now in fairness. it doesn't appear that he's getting much help from his boss , the same person he took over from.

with regard to Nama, whether you think its a good idea or not at least the man is taking action. everyone else is all talk and he's driving this one on. there's no point on sitting on the fence, that not going to change anything. its still a gamble though.

i think he did okay tonight though. he's earned my respect over the last 12 months. he's gotten stuck in and i firmly believe he is doing his damnedest to get us out of a hole which he had very little influence in creating (cowen, ahern, harney)

he was a minister in the cabinet the whole time that this was going on and you think he had very little influence in creating this mess? When you're all in a hole and the dope who got you there is still digging you don't pat him on the back for making an effort, you get him the fcuk out of it. Plus he look's and sounds like he's just bet everything on a 20/1 shot, I don't trust his judgment.

MrMicra

The_Minister wrote: »

Thats because the currant prices are so low that the banks will still be in trouble if pay todays prices. Pay tomorrows, we may still profit on the day after (though not likely), and we don't need to loan the banks more money.

nationalisation is inevitable. The european competition commission which is the big 'un has said that we don't have to pay market value for the bank assets but we have to agree what they are worth with the EU. A generous non FF valuation will still bust AIB and probably bank of Ireland. On the up side that nice dutch woman will stop FF ruining the country to help their owners.

I thought Lenihan did pretty badly and usually I think he does well.

anonymous_joe

MrMicra wrote: »

nationalisation is inevitable. The european competition commission which is the big 'un has said that we don't have to pay market value for the bank assets but we have to agree what they are worth with the EU. A generous non FF valuation will still bust AIB and probably bank of Ireland. On the up side that nice dutch woman will stop FF ruining the country to help their owners.

I thought Lenihan did pretty badly and usually I think he does well.

Hand and heart, I'd honestly say I'd be bloody worried if he didn't look rattled.

BaconZombie

For anybody who missed it:

RTE PLAYER - VIDEO LINK

Mrmoe

The fundamental question here is whether we trust their opinion and view about NAMA. If we were to rely on track record I would be very skeptical.

skelliser

Mrmoe wrote: »

The fundamental question here is whether we trust their opinion and view about NAMA. If we were to rely on track record I would be very skeptical.

agreed

randypriest

BOFH_139 wrote: »

For anybody who missed it:

RTE PLAYER - VIDEO LINK

Thanks.

soundsham

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS7GQFxoHKg&feature=related

shorter version

SEPT 23 1989

he said he knew nothing about lending carrolls company more money to finish the Anglo building even though he is control of the bank, it would be funny if it was not so serious

Sizzler

Did anybody else notice his alien like red-eyes :eek:

Sonderval

NAMA: collecting the rubbish business deals of our generation and boxing them off for the next generation to deal with. Seems everyone is on a breakneck speed course to get back to the 'good times' without correctly fixing the economic system.

Fools folly, and its being pushed on us with so little transparency its startling. As painful as it may be, if a bank is going to collapse due to bad management & incompetence, then so be it. This is the correct way business should work. Instead, we're propping them up without any real reform of their business.

FlutterinBantam

Sonderval wrote: »

NAMA: collecting the rubbish business deals of our generation and boxing them off for the next generation to deal with. Seems everyone is on a breakneck speed course to get back to the 'good times' without correctly fixing the economic system.

Fools folly, and its being pushed on us with so little transparency its startling. As painful as it may be, if a bank is going to collapse due to bad management & incompetence, then so be it. This is the correct way business should work. Instead, we're propping them up without any real reform of their business.

The reason being that we need them to continue in business.

Unpalatable it may be ,but to let the banking system collapse would ruin the country,cause massive massive job losses,promote ireland into a basket case in Europe .

We have to do something to try to stall off total wipeout, and based on what I have heard and read, NAMA is as good an option as any.

If you lived on an island and someone built a bridge for you which you totally depended on for survival and that bridge, due to faulty construction and bad design was in imminent danger of collapsing,the answer for you would not just be "let it collapse".

Rock and hard place here.

Trankton

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

If you lived on an island and someone built a bridge for you which you totally depended on for survival and that bridge, due to faulty construction and bad design was in imminent danger of collapsing,the answer for you would not just be "let it collapse".

Rock and hard place here.

What if the island itself is collapsing, fixing the bridge won't provide any solution for that!!!

All it means is that we get to pay more tax so the complete idiots causing this collapse can still live their extravagant lifestyles and get their massive pay-outs. FF must be worried that the brown envelopes will stop coming in from the developers if they're not bailed out!!!

*Tripper*

Mark Little is an absolute fool who seems incapable of letting anyone finish their answer to questions he asks. Just listening to this now and he is constantly cutting in on Lenihan.

FlutterinBantam

Indeed Lenihan told him on one occasion to let him finish.

I would have dropped anchor earlier on and told him either let me finish or terminate the discussion, unless of course it suited him to leave some stuff open ended!!!


:eek:

Robbo

*Tripper* wrote: »

Mark Little is an absolute fool who seems incapable of letting anyone finish their answer to questions he asks. Just listening to this now and he is constantly cutting in on Lenihan.

What's worse is he thinks it makes him Paxman-esque.

FlutterinBantam

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The reason being that we need them to continue in business.

Unpalatable it may be ,but to let the banking system collapse would ruin the country,cause massive massive job losses,promote ireland into a basket case in Europe .

We have to do something to try to stall off total wipeout, and based on what I have heard and read, NAMA is as good an option as any.

If you lived on an island and someone built a bridge for you which you totally depended on for survival and that bridge, due to faulty construction and bad design was in imminent danger of collapsing,the answer for you would not just be "let it collapse".

Rock and hard place here.

Lies and Propaganda. We need banks. We dont need THESE banks :mad: