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(no) Motor Tax and penalties question...

  • 02-09-2009 11:36pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭


    ...what is the exact story on current fines for non-tax, and non-display? Any points ?

    ...curiously, looking up the penalty points website HERE it announces that there are 36 current offences that attract points..........as of 3rd April 2006

    FFS. 2006 ???

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭BeardyGit


    €60 a piece on the fixed penalty notice for each of the offences if paid in the first 28 days, with another €30 on top for the second 28 days. Miss those day counts and you're off to court.... No points for either though. I know as I had to collect a car for a friend after it was impounded and sort out the fines which came in when he was gone on his holidays. His tax had been out by 10 weeks, allowed lapse when his work dried up and he wasn't really using his car. Silly lad, but he knew the risk he was taking.

    I was speaking to another friend who's a Garda and asking him if that's new, as I'd always heard you'd be fairly safe up to 3 months or so out. He says they've been given clear instructions to apply the letter of the law to anyone where their tax is out by any more than 2 months. He said the number of cars that are untaxed has soared, and that there's a concerted effort under way to encourage compliance....

    Like it or not, more and more of those who've gotten away with having the tax out in the past are going to be caught. If you're done for it now, it'll cost something like €125 impound fee, €30+ a day storage, the FPN charges and whatever the back tax and tax for your car will set you back.... You can't get your car out without a transporter (on Garda instruction for the likes of Kelly's recovery etc) unless you've sorted out the back tax and renewal, and you'll keep adding a daily storage charge for each day longer it takes to pay everything due....

    Gil


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ok. Reason I ask is this: heard a tale today of warden's putting tickets on cars with no tax/out of date tax............in a car park.

    Tax was out of date by 2 weeks !! That's week's btw. A city council car park, btw.

    So, my query is this: the renewal notice you get clearly states you can renew your tax up to 30 days from expiry of current. Thus, you should not be fined for non-display (let alone non-tax), when the renewal notice specifically gives you 30 days to pay it.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    galwaytt wrote: »
    ok. Reason I ask is this: heard a tale today of warden's putting tickets on cars with no tax/out of date tax............in a car park.

    Tax was out of date by 2 weeks !! That's week's btw. A city council car park, btw.

    So, my query is this: the renewal notice you get clearly states you can renew your tax up to 30 days from expiry of current. Thus, you should not be fined for non-display (let alone non-tax), when the renewal notice specifically gives you 30 days to pay it.

    How do you know if the tax is less than 30 days out if you dont display it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭BeardyGit


    galwaytt wrote: »
    ok. Reason I ask is this: heard a tale today of warden's putting tickets on cars with no tax/out of date tax............in a car park.

    Tax was out of date by 2 weeks !! That's week's btw. A city council car park, btw.

    So, my query is this: the renewal notice you get clearly states you can renew your tax up to 30 days from expiry of current. Thus, you should not be fined for non-display (let alone non-tax), when the renewal notice specifically gives you 30 days to pay it.

    Say for example your tax expires in December. If you renew for 3, 6 or 12 months within 30 days, so say the month of January, you'll be taxing the car from January through to whenever. If you don't tax the car within 30 days though, you'll be taxing it in February, to run for 3, 6 or 12 months, but you'll have to pay arrears for January on top of your normal tax renewal. Does that make sense the way I've explained it? That's what the 30 days applies to....

    Non-display is still an offense in the situation you refer to though. If the car was sitting in your driveway, a traffic warden would never be near it. But if it's parked in a public place or carpark, it's fair game. They can't touch you for not actually having tax, but they can for non-display. I know this as I picked up a ticket for it years ago in Clontarf when I hadn't put the new tax disk on the windscreen for a couple of days and it was a black and white issue as far as they and the Gardaí were concerned when I asked while paying the notice over in O'Connell St. at the time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    kearnsr wrote: »
    How do you know if the tax is less than 30 days out if you dont display it?
    The tax disc that had just gone out - WAS displayed. As stated, it was only 2 week's out.
    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    Say for example your tax expires in December........ Does that make sense the way I've explained it? ..... That's what the 30 days applies to....

    Non-display is still an offense in the situation you refer to though.

    ...but you see, that's the rub: I've looked as best as I can see, the t Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2005 (Fixed Charge Offences) Regulations 2006 (SI No. 135 of 2006), states that yes, non-display of a tax disc is punitive. What it does not say (afaik), is non-display of a current tax disc. It is arguable, therefore, that the display of a disc, although expired, but within the 30-day period following expiry, does NOT breach the RTA.

    And that is the point I'm making - that there is a dichotomy of sort here.

    Either way, imho, the lady in question, was hard done by.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    ........... That's what the 30 days applies to.....

    ....where does it say that ? If it doesn't state that explicitly, you're implying that.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,712 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    Would it have anything to do with local council regulations?

    Years ago I got a ticket from the local council for parking in a council owned Multi-Story car park without a tax disc (funny story - it was a convertible and blew out of the holder on the motorway, how I laughed). There was a particular by-law enabling my local council to do this, but it wasn't allowed by all councils.

    May be something similar in this case, might not be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭BeardyGit


    galwaytt wrote: »
    ....where does it say that ? If it doesn't state that explicitly, you're implying that.

    Okay, here's the thing.... You're mixing up two different things.

    The 30 days is an allowance owing to the fact that motor tax is charged and accounted for in monthly blocks. The fact you get 30 days grace to conduct a simple motor tax renewal does not in effect permit you to use a car in a public place during this time. Outside of those 30 days, you must visit the motor tax office to pay the arrears and renewal.... So, that's all there is to the 30 days. It's administrative, and nothing to do with prosecution or legalities of having and displaying motor tax.

    Now, from the end of the last month indicated on the last tax disc up to the point where you have actually renewed the tax and displayed a disc, the car in question should remain off the road and out of public places. If someone choose to use the car in contradiction of the applicable law, they face having their vehicle impounded, fines etc.

    Here's the wording of the fixed penalty notice I photocopied before handing it over in the post office:

    "It is alleged that you have committed an offence Failing to Display a Current Vehicle License - Use (Non Display of a Tax Disc) Contrary to sections 73(1) and 76 (as ammended by Section 63 Finance Act 1993) of the Finance Act 1976, involving the driving or use of a mechanically propelled vehicle bearing identification mark 98WW4966 in a public place at XXXXXXXX at 8:40 hrs on 15/08/2009"

    So, as you can see, the offense is nothing to do with renewal dates, grace periods, actually HAVING tax or anything else. It's simply that the vehicle was used without a CURRENT Vehicle License, known as a tax disc, displayed as prescribed by applicable law. Even if the car was taxed, the owner would still be open to prosecution/fine for non-display....

    So, forget the 30 days. Using it to support an argument against being fined or prosecuted for the above offense is utterly pointless. This law has been enforced for the last 33+ years - You can bet your arse any possible loophole on this has long since been closed....

    Don't forget I mentioned above I was stung in the same way myself, so I do know first hand the frustration....although in my case I had actually taxed the car in question :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    Okay, here's the thing.... You're mixing up two different things.

    The 30 days is an allowance owing to the fact that motor tax is charged and accounted for in monthly blocks. The fact you get 30 days grace to conduct a simple motor tax renewal does not in effect permit you to use a car in a public place during this time.

    ....I hear ya, as they say, not arguing with you, but I politely disagree. The 30-day period, during which you may tax your car, allows for the tax to run for the month you are in (somewhere in the 30-days period.). Once you pay the renewal - whatever the amount - your are de-facto 'taxed/licenced' for the period in question. Any ticket given therefore (I'm ignoring the 'display' element for the moment) inside that period which you subsequently tax for.....is null and void.

    Display, I agree, is different, but I don't think we disagree, this was done in a time where it was done to compel people to display the disc properly, so that it may be inspected -long before 'Pulse' technology.........I think the practice on now is being a bit literal, and too sneaky. Co-incidentally it just so happens to play into the Authorities favour............wow.....isn't that amazing ?

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    [minihijack] ....on a small car, this fine and fees for impound, are a big deal...relative to the amount of car tax. On a much more expensive one........it's actually cheaper to pay the fine rather than tax it......:p[/minihijack]

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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