Diesel Commercial for commute?

Corner Back

I am thinking of commuting to Dublin from down the country (approx. 1.5 to 2 hours) due to economic circumstances. I also need a fairly big car due to back trouble. I was thinking of a diesel commercial to save on tax. I have about €5000 to spend and would welcome any advice on what to buy.
Thanks in advance.

peasant

By law, a commercial with a commercial tax on it should only be used for commercial purposes.
If you use it privately you're supposed to tax it privately ...so no tax saving, I'm afraid.

ji

Transit connect light on fuel.

Senna

I looked at some of the crew cabs and 4x4's and the fuel economy on most are terrible compared to a 2ltr diesel and for a 2 hour commute, most in your price range will just leave you with a sore arse everyday. Vans will be cheaper on fuel, but in my case (similar to you) i'm just going to go for a good fuel efficient diesel car.

maidhc

peasant wrote: »

By law, a commercial with a commercial tax on it should only be used for commercial purposes.
If you use it privately you're supposed to tax it privately ...so no tax saving, I'm afraid.

Are you sure about that?

I understand that in Irish law a vehicle is a commercial by virtue of having x amount of rear load space and permanently blacked out windows. How the vehicle is used is not an issue.

Something like a Golf or Corolla van sounds ideal. You may get stung for higher tolls though, beware of that.

JHMEG

peasant wrote: »

By law, a commercial with a commercial tax on it should only be used for commercial purposes.

He might be...
EDIT: I'm nearly sure maidhc's version is correct. In addition the DOE test has to be done every year, instead of the NCT every 2nd year.

I don't think big diesel commercial and economy or comfort all sit together. 4 hours a day in a transit and you'll soon be deaf.

Maybe try out a few 2.0 or less diesel saloons... obvious ones are the Passat, Octavia, Avensis and 320D?

peasant

maidhc wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

I understand that in Irish law a vehicle is a commercial by virtue of having x amount of rear load space and permanently blacked out windows. How the vehicle is used is not an issue.

Three different issues here:

1) classification for VRT and registration purposes
2) classification for NCT / DOE purposes
3) classification for tax purposes.

As a private person you can buy a commercial at the cheaper VRT rate, making it cheaper than its passenger equivalent.
It will still be tested annually with a DOE test even though you're driving it as a private vehicle.
You are supposed to tax it as a private vehicle (according to the old cc based tax rate even if it's new) if it is used privately.

GTE

Would a VAG diesel (Golf, Passat, some kinda Audi) or Ford Focus/Mondeo suit ya?

Corner Back

Corner Back wrote: »

I am thinking of commuting to Dublin from down the country (approx. 1.5 to 2 hours) due to economic circumstances. I also need a fairly big car due to back trouble. I was thinking of a diesel commercial to save on tax. I have about €5000 to spend and would welcome any advice on what to buy.
Thanks in advance.

A commercial is about €270 to tax, a 2.0 car is about €600, hardly seems worth it really does it.

2 Espressi

As mentioned, Transit Connect, or VW Caddy, you might find one of the newer (Touran-based not Polo shaped) ones for 5k.

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200933194884038

I've started using one for the 45min commute, and once the seat is setup right, it's very easy on my back.

Madame Razz

RoverJames wrote: »

A commercial is about €270 to tax, a 2.0 car is about €600, hardly seems worth it really does it.

€288 in fact:)

I drive a commercial 4x4 as it suits me for tax and I have a bad back.

Only for my tax situation I wouldn't be driving it. It DRINKS diesel, especially around town, but isn't too bad on a distance drive.....still much heavier than a 2.0L car tho....I mean you are driving around in something that alone weighs 2.8tonnes so it kind of stands to reason. It drives very differently to a car too, as in not as easily, but you get quite used to that after a while. More expensive to maintain generally aswell.

It is epic for my back tho, and very comfortable, so all in all I wouldn't be without it.

Corner Back

Thanks for all the advice so far. I was thinking of the
4X4 option but not sure what to go for.
Anyone got any opinions of the Santa Fe or maybe a Trooper?
Thanks again

cormie

Madame Razz wrote: »

€288 in fact:)

I drive a commercial 4x4 as it suits me for tax and I have a bad back.

Only for my tax situation I wouldn't be driving it. It DRINKS diesel, especially around town, but isn't too bad on a distance drive.....still much heavier than a 2.0L car tho....I mean you are driving around in something that alone weighs 2.8tonnes so it kind of stands to reason. It drives very differently to a car too, as in not as easily, but you get quite used to that after a while. More expensive to maintain generally aswell.

It is epic for my back tho, and very comfortable, so all in all I wouldn't be without it.

What 4x4 weighs 2.8 tonne :eek: Is that laden or unladen? My transit LWB high roof is 2 unladen


Would anyone recommend a commercial (car like a Golf or C4 commercial would be big enough) that would tick the following boxes:

• good acceleration for overtaking
• top speed of at least 150kmph which can be reached quick enough on hills or flats
• light on fuel for 90% long distance, 10% city
• reliable/affordable
• bulk head separating cargo from cab
• secure
• under 3k

Corner Back

Corner Back wrote: »

Anyone got any opinions of the Santa Fe or maybe a Trooper?
Thanks again

Both heavy on the diesel compared to a car, Trooper 3.0 is a shocking engine, older 3.1 was top class but they are now all old and you won't find a good one.

Unless this commercial is going through a business it won't be cheaper than running an executive sized diesel saloon, it will be much dearer. If it's coming out of a ltd company fair enough. If you are a PAYE worker the car is the most cost effective way to go.

Madame Razz

RoverJames wrote: »

Both heavy on the diesel compared to a car, Trooper 3.0 is a shocking engine, older 3.1 was top class but they are now all old and you won't find a good one.

Unless this commercial is going through a business it won't be cheaper than running an executive sized diesel saloon, it will be much dearer. If it's coming out of a ltd company fair enough. If you are a PAYE worker the car is the most cost effective way to go.

Wise wise words tbh.

Buy an older bigger executive diesel saloon, a big Audi or summat, you'll get your comfort that way but less the enormous fuel bills:)

peasant

peasant wrote: »

By law, a commercial with a commercial tax on it should only be used for commercial purposes.
If you use it privately you're supposed to tax it privately ...so no tax saving, I'm afraid.

I'm almost sure the only reason anybody ever taxed a van privately is small car vans to avail of the no nct/doe loop hole.

The other posters are correct, as far as I know in Ireland commercial is decided as above by load space.

Everybody and I mean everybody who has a van taxes it commercially(except a tiny % of small vans) and I have never heard of anybody getting into trouble over it.

Edit: I dont think you can doe a privately taxed van either.

Madame Razz

Emilia Easy Self-denial wrote: »

I'm almost sure the only reason anybody ever taxed a van privately is small car vans to avail of the no nct/doe loop hole.

The other posters are correct, as far as I know in Ireland commercial is decided as above by load space.

Everybody and I mean everybody who has a van taxes it commercially(except a tiny % of small vans) and I have never heard of anybody getting into trouble over it.

Edit: I dont think you can doe a privately taxed van either.

Tbh I think all they worry about from the motor tax POV is that you are actually taxing a commercial vehicle commercially, as opposed to trying to tax a passenger vehicle as a commercial. That's the only part that they (physically) check, and your purpose for having the vehicle is never queried.

As the above poster says it's all to do with load space as far as I can tell. I really can't see how they would police it otherwise, apart from not offsetting a certain percentage of your fuel costs against your tax when you are doing your returns to allow for private use(which the Revenue are more than happy to accept/facilitate), but obviously this is something that you or your accountant will make you do.

mikewest

OP why not test drive an Almera Van. Good for long commutes and light on maintenance. Not the most economical on diesel (45mpg average including a lot of motorway) but a 12,000 mile service interval using "normal" oil helps the total cost. Comfortable seating postion for most but slightly stiff suspension is why I would recommend the test drive as you complain about your back. I have driven bigger cars that were less comfortable for the kind of commute you are talking about. Big plus is it comes in either 110 bhp or 140 bhp so enough power to make the long drive bearable.

Taxed as goods vehicle, and to the pedants on this thread I have just had another "discussion" with my local tax office about one of these as it was going from a company ownership to private ownership. After some grumbling and demanding €823 tax they gave me a form to be signed by the guards declaring this was a "goods" vehicle. Filled in form and called into friendly Garda station. Reaction from desk was, :rolleyes: , "is it DOE'd?" answer "yes", sign form, and says "have they any cop on over there?". Tax still €288 .

manta356

A suzuki vitara jeep is a lot easier to run than most 4x4's.
Also the ssanyong kyron is easy to run

Madame Razz

manta356 wrote: »

A suzuki vitara jeep is a lot easier to run than most 4x4's.
Also the ssanyong kyron is easy to run

True, the smaller engined 4x4s are nowhere near as heavy on juice. They are still heavier than a car tho, and I would think that their effect on the OPs back health would be similar to that of a comfartbale executive saloon, as having a very dody back myself I found that only the bigger 4x4s had a truly positive effect that actually merited me going out and buying one despite the at times ridiculous running costs.

Seriously, I almost cry every time it tells me the average 'fuel economy'....I think they're being ironic when they call it that:pac:

R.O.R

Emilia Easy Self-denial wrote: »

I'm almost sure the only reason anybody ever taxed a van privately is small car vans to avail of the no nct/doe loop hole.

The other posters are correct, as far as I know in Ireland commercial is decided as above by load space.

Everybody and I mean everybody who has a van taxes it commercially(except a tiny % of small vans) and I have never heard of anybody getting into trouble over it.

Edit: I dont think you can doe a privately taxed van either.

Madame Razz wrote: »

Tbh I think all they worry about from the motor tax POV is that you are actually taxing a commercial vehicle commercially, as opposed to trying to tax a passenger vehicle as a commercial. That's the only part that they (physically) check, and your purpose for having the vehicle is never queried.

As the above poster says it's all to do with load space as far as I can tell. I really can't see how they would police it otherwise, apart from not offsetting a certain percentage of your fuel costs against your tax when you are doing your returns to allow for private use(which the Revenue are more than happy to accept/facilitate), but obviously this is something that you or your accountant will make you do.

I'll point you to this post I made last week - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61814029&postcount=16

There is only one reason a company with 450 vehicles on the road is spending €614 to tax a Vivaro rather than €288, and that's to keep on the right side of Plod/Revenue.

R.O.R

R.O.R wrote: »

I'll point you to this post I made last week - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61814029&postcount=16

There is only one reason a company with 450 vehicles on the road is spending €614 to tax a Vivaro rather than €288, and that's to keep on the right side of Plod/Revenue.

That is a bit ridiculous. Every van gets used for private use every now and again. If this was the case every farmer in the country would have to tax their vans/4x4's privately. A big company taxing thir commercials privately . The point of commercial tax is for big companys. That company need a better legal team. There is something not right with that story imo. Also as I said before as far as I know a van must be taxed commercial for the doe.

Madame Razz

^^^^^^Exactly, and I really don't see how they would police it tbh.

mikewest

mikewest wrote: »

OP why not test drive an Almera Van. Good for long commutes and light on maintenance. Not the most economical on diesel (45mpg average including a lot of motorway) but a 12,000 mile service interval using "normal" oil helps the total cost. Comfortable seating postion for most but slightly stiff suspension is why I would recommend the test drive as you complain about your back. I have driven bigger cars that were less comfortable for the kind of commute you are talking about. Big plus is it comes in either 110 bhp or 140 bhp so enough power to make the long drive bearable.

............Tax still €288 .

Surely the €300 ish difference in taxing a car or a commercial does not justify going the commercial route.

What's this normal oil your on about ? An Almera diesel would require semi synthetic diesel engine oil, much like most jeeps etc

alias no.9

Corner Back wrote: »

I am thinking of commuting to Dublin from down the country (approx. 1.5 to 2 hours) due to economic circumstances. I also need a fairly big car due to back trouble. I was thinking of a diesel commercial to save on tax. I have about €5000 to spend and would welcome any advice on what to buy.
Thanks in advance.

Your choice of diesel commercials will range from car derived vans which are generally 'b' segment (fiesta, clio, punto) and 'c' segment (focus, astra, golf). These would not seem to fit the bill on the fairly big car front.
Next up you have the small van (berlingo, caddy) which are still generally small car based.
Going any larger on the van side will hurt you on fuel economy. You'd save €326 on tax per year on a van v's a 2 litre saloon, that'd be eaten up very quickly in diesel.
Then you have commercial versions of soft roaders (freelander, vitara, etc...) which you might break even on fuel v's tax but they're not that big inside. Going up into proper off roaders increases weight massively and fuel consumption too.
My recommendation would be to look for the best 1.9TDi VW Passat you could get for your budget, it's got a good blend of roomieness and ride quality coupled with economy. It'll cost you €294 a year more to tax but you'll save it on fuel compared to any commercial large enough to meet your requirements.
I'm conservatively estimating your commute at 60 miles (1.5 to 2 hours) each way or 120 miles per day, 5 days a week makes 600miles per week, 48 weeks a year makes 28800 miles per year commuting. With those numbers the Passat would only need to average 43.6mpg to breakeven against a commercially taxed vehicle averaging 40mpg. The Passat can average 50mpg if driven sensibly, a commercial would need to do more than 45.4mpg to match that. If you're commuting greater distances or using the car at weekends the Passat gives more savings.

Eoin

Corner Back wrote: »

I am thinking of commuting to Dublin from down the country (approx. 1.5 to 2 hours) due to economic circumstances. I also need a fairly big car due to back trouble. I was thinking of a diesel commercial to save on tax. I have about €5000 to spend and would welcome any advice on what to buy.
Thanks in advance.

Are you looking for this commercial to be the family car as well, or are you going to get the family car as well?

If you've back problems, I'd have thought a nice floaty French car would be the way to go.

Madame Razz

eoin wrote: »

Are you looking for this commercial to be the family car as well, or are you going to get the family car as well?

If you've back problems, I'd have thought a nice floaty French car would be the way to go.

Any kind of back trouble esp lower back pain 4x4 is best I'm afraid.

My Orthopaedic guy told me that I could try lots of things but a 4x4 was the one sure fire solution to sort my back.


Thought the man was bonkers at the time, but took his advice at the next car change et voila, I have a healthy back. It may seem excessive but it certainly does make a difference.

Oh, and I wouldn't advise somebody who needs a reliable vehicle for a long daily commute towards a French car, that's a recipe for disaster surely

I had one of said floaty french cars for a while and spent more time in the garage than on the road.

A Passat is probably a good compromise OP.

Eoin

Madame Razz wrote:

My Orthopaedic guy told me that I could try lots of things but a 4x4 was the one sure fire solution to sort my back.

Is it that you're stepping up rather than down into the SUV that makes the difference?

Madame Razz wrote:

Oh, and I wouldn't advise somebody who needs a reliable vehicle for a long daily commute towards a French car, that's a recipe for disaster surely

Ah come on now, let's not do the whole "every car from an entire country is crap" thing.

alias no.9

Madame Razz wrote: »

My Orthopaedic guy told me that I could try lots of things but a 4x4 was the one sure fire solution to sort my back.

What kind of 4x4 are we talking about here? Many 4x4's are bone shakers and would probably do damage to a healthy back if you were commuting 1.5 to 2 hours each way 5 days a week.

R.O.R

alias no.9 wrote: »

What kind of 4x4 are we talking about here? Many 4x4's are bone shakers and would probably do damage to a healthy back if you were commuting 1.5 to 2 hours each way 5 days a week.

+1

I couldn't walk the 3 paces from my Pajero Sport to the front door some days :mad:

Also had someone in recently who's having back problems after an accident. Test drove an old model X-Trail we had here and knew straight away it was no good. The S40 he tested was much better for him, even if it's a lot lower down to get in to.

Madame Razz

Good to see ye all know more about backs than an Orthopaedic surgeon who specialises in spinal work lads:rolleyes:

But I know whose word I'd go on tbh.


Simply your posture is completely different when sitting in a 4x4 than a car. You sit upright, further away from the wheel, the wheel is at a better height in relation to your shoulders and there is less inclination for your shoulders to curl forward, as happens on a long distance commute in a car. This shoulder curling puts immense strain on the muscles of the back. As well as that sitting into a car seat is almost akin to sitting in a bucket, and that also puts a lot of strain on your lower back, as does getting in and out of a car. But the posture is the most important aspect.

I have air suspension in my 4x4 and it works a treat. I know in some models the coil system can be quite hard, but even so it's still better for your back.

It's not something you can really tell on a quick test drive. But it has worked for me and it's advice he gives to other patients aswell, and it has worked for them too. I mean it's not exactly advice you would give lightly to a person.

My physio switched to a 4x4 for the sake of her back aswell, her sports car had her own fcuked. And a colleague of mine who fell off a roof an injured his back AFTER spinal surgery was advised by his surgeon to swop from an accord to a 4x4 for his backs sake.

It's a pretty well known fact in fairness.

Interestingly I had to get rid of an S40 as it was wrecking my back.

Horses for courses I guess.

Oh, and I injured my back in a car accident btw.

BlackWizard

I'd just like to add that it's not just 4x4s that help.

My Dad has a bad back and tends to go through a lot of MPVs. Similar description as Madame Razz just posted can be applied to them.

I drive a Passat. I used to have a sore back after doing a lot of driving. So I pulled the seat back and raised it up very high. Then instead of leaning back in the seat I'm now in a more upright position. Similar to that of a MPV or 4x4 but not quite as good. But my back never gets sore and it helps with my bad knee too.

Madame Razz

BlackWizard wrote: »

I'd just like to add that it's not just 4x4s that help.

My Dad has a bad back and tends to go through a lot of MPVs. Similar description as Madame Razz just posted can be applied to them.

I drive a Passat. I used to have a sore back after doing a lot of driving. So I pulled the seat back and raised it up very high. Then instead of leaning back in the seat I'm now in a more upright position. Similar to that of a MPV or 4x4 but not quite as good. But my back never gets sore and it helps with my bad knee too.

I was actually thinking earlier that an MPV might be a decent compromise for the OP:)

Corner Back

Thanks again to everyone for their opinions. I didn't think I'd spark such a good debate. I currently drive an 05 Toledo 1.6 which has a very upright driving position. It has a great driving position but its not economical enough for the commute so the wife will be getting it. I would be greatful if anyone had suggestions both commercial and passenger of suitable diesels and also if Madame Razz could tell me what she drives.
Thanks again.

Chef-1st

Now first off, I'm not suggesting my car, but I've a dodgy back too.
My 4x4 helps, as it has a great upright position, big comfy seats and good lumbar support. I only notice how much so when I get in to the missus's car !
It's not too economical as cars go though, but it's good for the big milers/motorway drives. I get 30-34mpg.
I have a commercial VW Touareg. So low tax/insurance.
It's a manual 2.5lt, but I'd definitely go for an automatic car, that was my initial mistake tbh, as there's less strain on your back when clutching in all the time.
It's comfy and helps my back, but it's got fairly expensive running costs if you're not handy with a spanner
If you could find something similar with better economy, and cheaper to buy, then it would help your back alright. Good hunting !

If a 1.6 Toledo is not frugal enough forget about any 4x4, also anything other than a light commercial. Light commercials won't be comfy, I'd go for

- Passat as mentioned, expensive though
- 406 HDi, can be got for small enough money, very comfy
- Rover 75 diesel auto only though, hard to get an auto, 2.0 diesel BMW engine, as light on diesel as the two above
- Toledo diesel (why not, you like them)
- Avensi diesel, d4d won't be as light on the diesel as the above cars, fine bus though.

PANADOL

peasant wrote: »

By law, a commercial with a commercial tax on it should only be used for commercial purposes.
If you use it privately you're supposed to tax it privately ...so no tax saving, I'm afraid.

not true

PANADOL

Corner Back wrote: »

Thanks again to everyone for their opinions. I didn't think I'd spark such a good debate. I currently drive an 05 Toledo 1.6 which has a very upright driving position. It has a great driving position but its not economical enough for the commute so the wife will be getting it. I would be greatful if anyone had suggestions both commercial and passenger of suitable diesels and also if Madame Razz could tell me what she drives.
Thanks again.

why not buy a hatchback car or estate car and convert it yoursel very easy to do as cars tend to have higher comfort specs compared to commercial vans buy in uk 13.3% vrt on car van anyway vans and the like are v cheap now country full of them ashes of the boom

alias no.9

Madame Razz wrote: »

Good to see ye all know more about backs than an Orthopaedic surgeon who specialises in spinal work lads:rolleyes:

But I know whose word I'd go on tbh.


Simply your posture is completely different when sitting in a 4x4 than a car. You sit upright, further away from the wheel, the wheel is at a better height in relation to your shoulders and there is less inclination for your shoulders to curl forward, as happens on a long distance commute in a car. This shoulder curling puts immense strain on the muscles of the back. As well as that sitting into a car seat is almost akin to sitting in a bucket, and that also puts a lot of strain on your lower back, as does getting in and out of a car. But the posture is the most important aspect.

I have air suspension in my 4x4 and it works a treat. I know in some models the coil system can be quite hard, but even so it's still better for your back.

It's not something you can really tell on a quick test drive. But it has worked for me and it's advice he gives to other patients aswell, and it has worked for them too. I mean it's not exactly advice you would give lightly to a person.

My physio switched to a 4x4 for the sake of her back aswell, her sports car had her own fcuked. And a colleague of mine who fell off a roof an injured his back AFTER spinal surgery was advised by his surgeon to swop from an accord to a 4x4 for his backs sake.

It's a pretty well known fact in fairness.

Interestingly I had to get rid of an S40 as it was wrecking my back.

Horses for courses I guess.

Oh, and I injured my back in a car accident btw.

The range of seating positions in cars and 4x4's is endless, not to mention the range in shapes and sizes of people. Regardles of whether a person has back pain or not, they should be looking for a vehicle in which they can maintain a good posture. Most cars now include height adjustable drivers seats as well as height and reach adjustable steering wheel. That's not to say that everybody can find a good posture in every vehicle, they're just as likely to find it in a car as a 4x4.
While your air sprung Range Rover / Touareg / Q7 or whatever it is may be ideal for your needs, it doesn't necessarilly make a generic 4x4 the automatic choice for others.

Eoin

Exactly, and I reckon a surgeon's idea of a 4x4 might be more Range Rover than bone rattler. We're not saying we know more about backs then him, but I'd bet that many of the regulars here (especially ones in the trade) know more about cars than him.

Madame Razz

You still can't compare the seating position in the average car vs the average 4x4. Or dispute the fact that this position is better for the average persons back. There are clinical studies that back this up. In addition any studies that have ever been carried out with regard to the effect of vibrations on lower back pain have never shown any clinically significant results, and most of the studies were carried out on tractor drivers....i.e. high levels of vibration

I tried the car with a good seat and a million possible adjustments initially. and it actually made things worse. It might be ok for somebody with a bad back who does low mileage, but as my mileage is extremely high a car was not for me.

As it happens the surgeon himself actually drives quite a modest 4x4, however I don't dispute the fact that air suspension makes the ride much more comfortable, that's why I bought what I bought; which isn't a Range Rover, Toureg or Q7 I might add.

I wish the OP every success in his search:)

Fatswaldo

I've driven commercial jeeps for work for the past 6 years. Very uncomfortable on long journeys as the suspension is hard to allow them to take loads, this makes them bouncy. Crew cabs are worse. Pal has a LR with air suspension which is a lot better. Im changing shortly to a car as I no longer need the jeep. Of the car type vans, the focus has the best driving position IMO.