If Lynch had invaded...RTE Tuesday

darkman2

Im still curious as to what the point of this documentary is going to be - as if as a nation we are not deflated enough - frankly I don't feel like sitting in front of the telly to listen to some pompous ex British politician or soldier telling us how we would have gotten our ass kicked if we crossed the border in 1969.

Another car crash documentary of little value from RTE it seems.

Rujib1

It's just a set up by Biffo. He wants the nation to thrown into an anti Brit frenzy, by the said pompous Brit ex general / politician. On such a new wave of nationalistic fervour in Eire, he will do what Jack didn't and invade the six counties

Recession will be forgotten, NAMA will be forgotten As for Enda Skinney, Gilmore, the Greens and the Shinners .......... history.

FF will be relected, and goverment will relocate to Tullamore :rolleyes:

Simple really :cool:

R1

JonathanAnon

darkman2 wrote: »

Im still curious as to what the point of this documentary is going to be - as if as a nation we are not deflated enough - frankly I don't feel like sitting in front of the telly to listen to some pompous ex British politician or soldier telling us how we would have gotten our ass kicked if we crossed the border in 1969. Another car crash documentary of little value from RTE it seems.

I disagree. I think it is of interest. I've seen the promos where there is some pompous Brit saying that a lot of Irish soldiers would have died or something similar, but it wouldnt have been that easy for them. I mean if it had been that easy to keep their colonies, they would have kept India, Southern Ireland etc etc. And I was watching a program on the tube about how close they were to losing the Falklands (if the argies had planned the re-occupation properly, instead of the political stunt to appease the argentinian people that it was).

I am interested to see what there take on it is. Might take your mind off NAMA, our own VietNAMA.

LordSutch

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I mean if it had been that easy to keep their colonies, they would have kept India, Southern Ireland etc etc. And I was watching a program on the tube about how close they were to losing the Falklands (if the argies had planned the re-occupation properly, instead of the political stunt to appease the argentinian people that it was).

'What if Hitler had invaded Ireland' might have been more fun as a title

Losing the colonies was one thing, but losing part of one of these islands was quite another thing. its a silly idea for a TV prog anyway > what ifs .............

themont85

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I disagree. I think it is of interest. I've seen the promos where there is some pompous Brit saying that a lot of Irish soldiers would have died or something similar, but it wouldnt have been that easy for them. I mean if it had been that easy to keep their colonies, they would have kept India, Southern Ireland etc etc. And I was watching a program on the tube about how close they were to losing the Falklands (if the argies had planned the re-occupation properly, instead of the political stunt to appease the argentinian people that it was).

I am interested to see what there take on it is. Might take your mind off NAMA, our own VietNAMA.

Completely agree. In the near 90 year existance of the southern state it is the one time an actual invasion plan was drawn up seriousely(that we know of), possibly the only time military intervention was seen as a possiblilty from us in the north. What would the consequences of the invasion have been? What was planned? What would the international reaction have been? The latter is the most interesting part imo. What would the US have done given the amount of Irish Americans with huge influence over there?

A Disgrace

Looking forward to this. The OP is obviously just floating about looking for another RTE bashing thread.

What they may not know is that we came quite close to invading, to protect the catholic population of the North who were facing severe and violent discrimination. At the very least, had we invaded, we would all be living in a very different Ireland now and I for one am interested in what they might have been

994

Rujib1 wrote: »

FF will be relected, and goverment will relocate to Tullamore :rolleyes:

No, to Tara, where High King Brian II will be crowned.

AlmightyCushion

I'm actually looking forward to this. If it's done right it could be quite interesting. Beats some of the crap that rte usually pumps out.

themont85

darkman2 wrote: »

Another car crash documentary of little value from RTE it seems.

Have to say I enjoy RTÉ's historical documentaries, there is one production company they use who are very good generally(I'm fairly sure they did the Haughey and Fine Gael documentary), credit where credit is due they fund these people and they do a decent job.

I wish they would stick up a few of the ones they're not extracting the dosh from on DVD onto their Player online, I would love to see the Fine Gael one again that was excellent I thought.

TheBlock

themont85 wrote: »

Have to say I enjoy RTÉ's historical documentaries, there is one production company they use who are very good generally(I'm fairly sure they did the Haughey and Fine Gael documentary), credit where credit is due they fund these people and they do a decent job.

I wish they would stick up a few of the ones they're not extracting the dosh from on DVD onto their Player online, I would love to see the Fine Gael one again that was excellent I thought.

Double Band basedin Belfast are responsible for this and the Lemass doc.

Red Sleeping Beauty

This couldn't really be a pro-FF , rally behind the bhoys conspiracy frmo RTE could it ? Surely RTE aren't able to take direction from political parties ? I suppose though, there's someone making decisions in RTE and sure it'll depend on who they vote for or what party they're in.


I'm extremely envious of RTE's library. I love watching old documentaries cause it gives an idea of what life looked like in Ireland in the 20th century before you were born. Reelin' in the years is the business. With regards to the topic here, I can't imagine whatever Irish army there was would've made much of a dent. They'd have been wiped out as heard in the trailer.

Montyman

Alan Rouge wrote: »

This couldn't really be a pro-FF , rally behind the bhoys conspiracy frmo RTE could it ? Surely RTE aren't able to take direction from political parties ? I suppose though, there's someone making decisions in RTE and sure it'll depend on who they vote for or what party they're in.


I'm extremely envious of RTE's library. I love watching old documentaries cause it gives an idea of what life looked like in Ireland in the 20th century before you were born. Reelin' in the years is the business. With regards to the topic here, I can't imagine whatever Irish army there was would've made much of a dent. They'd have been wiped out as heard in the trailer.

At that time there was App: 1000 active IRA members in the North which could not be controlled by the so called Might of the English some 60,000 strong at the time so i think the Irish Army as a whole may of made a sizeable Dent.

DeVore

The irish army is a guerrila army, it is designed to fragment and run to the hills with decentralised command (in the event of a real invasion I understand the expected hold out in the main C&C's to be measured in minutes).

A full on assault on one of the worlds best trained armies near their home turf would have been suicide and would have started an unwinnable war. We cant beat them in a straight fight and history has shown that they cant dominate Ireland by force.

The guy is right.. play up the Fighting Irish card all you like, but when a 4 million strong country goes to war with its 60 Million strong neighbour... thats not going anywhere good.

DeV.

Montyman

Fair point was just sayin we took them to the point where they wanted to talk which lead to The Free State so the guerrila army worked before thats all i am sayin.

ynotdu

darkman2 wrote: »

Im still curious as to what the point of this documentary is going to be - as if as a nation we are not deflated enough - frankly I don't feel like sitting in front of the telly to listen to some pompous ex British politician or soldier telling us how we would have gotten our ass kicked if we crossed the border in 1969.

Another car crash documentary of little value from RTE it seems.

The reasoning behind a possible *breach* of UK territory(as defined then)&now,under the good friday agreement that over 95% of the 26 counties voted for) was NOT to fight the British army(who were not in NI in any numbers,rather it was to try provoke an International incident and request a UN peacekeeping force,a very high risk stategy and one Lynch decided could be highly counterproductive to all involved.


I have heard a recording of Paddy Devlin(later to become Lord Devlin;))
begging the then ministor for *NI AFFAIRS*James Callaghan to send over British troops ASAP to defend the Catholic population who were being routed by some Protestant thugs supported by their rulers(just about everybody in charge of the six countie,s were protestent and the B specials were the *police*(B specials were along the same lines as the *Blueshirts*)

The British army were welcomed by the Catholic community with open arms(right down to being given tea and sambo,s)in 69,the rest is history..............................


sorry if my post contains some *inconvient* truths.

Mossy Monk

I look forward to see this programme. I think it's typical how some would write it off without seeing even the opening credits. Would they do so if it was BBC production. I doubt it somehow.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I didn't write it off but you have to wonder what their reason for it is.


The Irish Army has just been described as "tin pot". They even interviewed some ret. officers are even saying how they wouldn't have stood a chance. Lotsa soundbites in this anyways. I wonder what the historians think of it...



Ye know, watching this it just kinda seems it's a study in why FF politicians shouldn't be allowed ramble on with their rhetoric.

Mr.Nice Guy

The camera work is quite appalling and the hypothetical stuff I find unnecessary.

It's an interesting subject matter but I don't think it's been addressed well.

Too much emphasis on style over substance. Pity.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

GospelGroupie

It's a rediculous hypothesis. Taking Newry would be the best they could have hoped for.

Mr.Nice Guy

This is one of the worst documentaries I've seen in a long time. They've lost the plot with this.

When do the Yanks get involved and drop a nuke? :rolleyes:

Banter Joe

What was with all the super close-ups of peoples faces as they're walking away from the camera?

Just really annoying.

FACEPALM

If you were going to invade the north , why would you only use 120 troops

Cris Jones

This was a disappointing programme, in my opinion. Unbelievably repetitious, going over the same statements and the same shoddy camerawork, over and over again in the first part but then came the second part... the what ifs...I had to turn away to hide a laugh when I saw that the Irish troops would have been shot down by British fighter pilots! What a load of tosh. What kind of international incident would that have caused, on the part of the British?!!!!!!!!! seeing as the programme kept warning us that the 26 counties would have been seen as making such a mistake around the world if they had sent in 120 soldiers to Newry, would not this reaction by the British have been a tad over the top!? Terrible programme-making; an insult to viewers.

JonathanAnon

I think the documentary is a bit naive. If it had been possible to achieve a unified Ireland by military means, and invasion would have been attempted earlier, probably during WWII when the supposedly heroic British forces were already stretched. What Ireland had was not an organised professional army, but would have had a great number of patriots willing to give their lives in geurilla type operations. Like any occupying force, the British obviously had overwhelming numbers and weapons, so a formal war would have been futile.

And remember, we would all be under Brit rule still unless somebody had stood up at some stage.

Cris Jones

Banter Joe wrote: »

What was with all the super close-ups of peoples faces as they're walking away from the camera?

Just really annoying.

Extremely annoying. My eyes haven't got over it yet.

mike65

Forget the thematic content, the actual programme technique was SH-I-TE.

Keelan Shanley clearly is not a vain woman as she would never have let the fecking cameraman anywhere near her otherwise. Wrinkles R Us. Shocking camerawork, editing, over use of dramatic music, moody lighting, portentious monologues.

Bleugh. If you are going to try to be stylish/stylised then you better be Adam Curtis.

Mr.Nice Guy

The whole thing was a shambles. For about an hour it was a somewhat interesting documentary with bad camera work. Then for some reason it morphed into a bad episode of The Twlight Zone...with bad camera work.

Cris Jones

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I think the documentary is a bit naive. If it had been possible to achieve a unified Ireland by military means, and invasion would have been attempted earlier, probably during WWII when the supposedly heroic British forces were already stretched. What Ireland had was not an organised professional army, but would have had a great number of patriots willing to give their lives in geurilla type operations. Like any occupying force, the British obviously had overwhelming numbers and weapons, so a formal war would have been futile.

And remember, we would all be under Brit rule still unless somebody had stood up at some stage.

1916 onwards would never have happened if the participants had seen this "documentary"....:D....they'd have been too scared of the consequences after being talked down to by bloody Mr Dewar, e.t.c. ......(I don't think..)

lukin

120 troops?Fifty rounds of ammo?FFS. The recreation of this supposed "invasion" had me rolling around on the carpet with laughter.
Well done to all involved, who says there's no good quality comedy being produced in RTE? I haven't laughed so much in ages.

darkman2

That was really really bad - even worse then I thought. It was hard to watch without laughing. Well done RTE. Make the Nation look like a bunch of fcuking ejjits on tv. The British contributors must have been laughing their arses off - off camera at these absurd "what if's?".....how embarrasing. You would think we did not feel depressed enough with the recession....

JonathanAnon

Cris Jones wrote: »

they'd have been too scared of the consequences after being talked down to by bloody Mr Dewar, e.t.c. ......(I don't think..)

Mr Dewar's contribution alone makes me feel like taking the farmer's rifle next door, heading cross the border after covering my face with muck and gravel, and challenging the space age British forces.

Bondvillain

Watchable for the first 30 minutes, as the facts were at least factual. However, the remainder of the programme was let down by the pompous delivery of moronic hypotheses that would have made the producers of Brasseye proud.

Oh, and the camerawork stank to high heaven.

Mossy Monk

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The camera work is quite appalling and the hypothetical stuff I find unnecessary.

It's an interesting subject matter but I don't think it's been addressed well.

Too much emphasis on style over substance. Pity.

Banter Joe wrote: »

What was with all the super close-ups of peoples faces as they're walking away from the camera?

Just really annoying.

Agree with both of you. The camera work was appalling. What annoyed me also was when someone started to speak the camera panned slowly across their face as they stared blankly into it. Then it would show them speaking. Crap. It really put me off this show.

Alwayson

Spent the day in a job seekers seminar, came home to this. Whats the point in a hypothetical war, when there's enough real wars to be going on with? Whats the point paying a license fee to an organisation that uses it to hire actors to play British soldiers shooting Irish soldiers in the back? Would the BBC broadcast a hypothetical battle where the Irish kick the crap out of them? Now I'm depressed and embarrassed. We might not be able to take over NI but we could storm Montrose!!!

KrazeeEyezKilla

That was depressing and pointless. They went on about Ireland being isolated internationally for invading Newry and a minute later were talking about Loyalist ethnic cleansing. What kind of reputation would Britain have globally if they slaughtered Irish soliders and allowed Loyalists to do that? They didn't even acknowledge that.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Mossy Monk wrote: »

Agree with both of you. The camera work was appalling. What annoyed me also was when someone started to speak the camera panned slowly across their face as they stared blankly into it. Then it would show them speaking. Crap. It really put me off this show.

Banter Joe wrote: »

What was with all the super close-ups of peoples faces as they're walking away from the camera?

Just really annoying.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The camera work is quite appalling and the hypothetical stuff I find unnecessary.

It's an interesting subject matter but I don't think it's been addressed well.

Too much emphasis on style over substance. Pity.

I concur with all three of ye. The camera angles were particularly bad. All these unlevel crooked shots with the camera looking it had just fallen off of its tripod! They used that technique in the 1960's Batman movie where all of the villians were shot at these kind of jagged angles. RTE gotta stop trying to be MTV and just produce a nice clean well balanced level shot of a person speaking.

ynotdu

Alwayson wrote: »

Spent the day in a job seekers seminar, came home to this. Whats the point in a hypothetical war, when there's enough real wars to be going on with? Whats the point paying a license fee to an organisation that uses it to hire actors to play British soldiers shooting Irish soldiers in the back? Would the BBC broadcast a hypothetical battle where the Irish kick the crap out of them? Now I'm depressed and embarrassed. We might not be able to take over NI but we could storm Montrose!!!

Lol Alwayson about storming Montrose!

i have to agree with many posters who said the imagioned repercussions of an invasion was "Silly"

even so i think the factual parts were fascinating and i always like when history is re-examined from every angle,simply because History is a topic that never has a *Final chapter* but evolves as documents,loveletters,state papers,freedom of information requests etc come to light.

It would be a bigger shame if ALL the propaganda we were fed along the way was never questioned.

I love history,but one mans fact is often another mans lie!

Red Sleeping Beauty

They get bonus points though for interviewing Eamonn McCann...

ballsymchugh

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Mr Dewar's contribution alone makes me feel like taking the farmer's rifle next door, heading cross the border after covering my face with muck and gravel, and challenging the space age British forces.

never mind going across the border, just head to Tullynally Castle and break some of Lord Longford's windows. Actually, why is Lord Longford's gaff in Co Westmeath??
apart from that, the camera work was rubbish, not stylish.

ynotdu

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote: »

That was depressing and pointless. They went on about Ireland being isolated internationally for invading Newry and a minute later were talking about Loyalist ethnic cleansing. What kind of reputation would Britain have globally if they slaughtered Irish soliders and allowed Loyalists to do that? They didn't even acknowledge that.

The facts are that the UK did stand by whilst the Storment Govt and its lackies ran amock on the Catholic population,including the family home of President McAleese,who knows how much worse things may have become if the UK Govt could continue to turn the blind eye?

IMO if a UN force could have somehow or other got in,the *troubles*would not have remained a stalemate for anything like 30 years.

ynotdu

ballsymchugh wrote: »

never mind going across the border, just head to Tullynally Castle and break some of Lord Longford's windows. Actually, why is Lord Longford's gaff in Co Westmeath??
apart from that, the camera work was rubbish, not stylish.

Same reason the G.P.O.s ground rent has to be paid to some *Lord* in the UK every year! (by our Govt!

Ah the Treaty,it would drive ya mad ya know,trying to decide if Collins idea of it being a stepping stone to a 32 county state,or Dev,s using it against Collins to undermine him!(even though Collins had begged Dev to go to London and negotiate with Llyod George as DEV was the de facto Taoiseach.

IMO DEV sat on the fence until he saw public reaction to the treaty,when he saw it was bad he knew he could go gun-ho after Collins.
a fascinating time in our history!

JonathanAnon

ballsymchugh wrote: »

never mind going across the border, just head to Tullynally Castle and break some of Lord Longford's windows. Actually, why is Lord Longford's gaff in Co Westmeath?? apart from that, the camera work was rubbish, not stylish.

We could take back Slane Castle from Lord Henry Mountcharles. As the ultimate display of anti Brit patriotism, we could take Noel Gallagher's Union Jack Rickenbacker and break it over Henry's head.

A lot of you are giving out about the camera work, but it was deliberately done so. Whether it was effective or not is a matter of taste. I always thought Keelin was quite attractive.

KrazeeEyezKilla

ynotdu wrote: »

The facts are that the UK did stand by whilst the Storment Govt and its lackies ran amock on the Catholic population,including the family home of President McAleese,who knows how much worse things may have become if the UK Govt could continue to turn the blind eye?

IMO if a UN force could have somehow or other got in,the *troubles*would not have remained a stalemate for anything like 30 years.

I know that. The point I was making was that the programme said Ireland would be made outcasts and yet seemed to think Britain could do anything they wanted. The whole world wouldn't have turned on Ireland like that. This would have finally made them realise what Loyalists/B Specials etc... had been doing for years.

ynotdu

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote: »

I know that. The point I was making was that the programme said Ireland would be made outcasts and yet seemed to think Britain could do anything they wanted. The whole world wouldn't have turned on Ireland like that.

I agree with You totally there,I think Ireland would have found many more friends than the show suggested,but i think only the strong Countries could have said it publicly.

the Commonwealth Countries would most likely have had to stay quiet under economic pressure from the UK (as it was then)

Danno

The USA would have been here had there been oil under them there counties.

Jip

So I can delete this from my Sky+ this evening without having to watch it ? Damn you RTE, I could have recorded Traffic Cops on BBC instead.

SEPT 23 1989

that was terrible jesus did they only have enough material for 20 minutes?
so they kept repeating and repeating the same thing over and over again

Mossy Monk

JonathanAnon wrote: »

A lot of you are giving out about the camera work, but it was deliberately done so.

Which makes it all the worse.

LordSutch

ynotdu wrote: »

the Commonwealth Countries would most likely have had to stay quiet under economic pressure from the UK (as it was then)

(as it was then)?

I thought the whole premise of the programme was not only hypothetical, but embarrassingly silly, it was also 'what iffery' of the most infantile kind. The very notion of a massively powerful UK force hitting a 120 strong Irish force in CIE busses (or in the back), is just beyond the Pale.

Oh yes, and the camera man might also be shot

themont85

ynotdu wrote: »

Same reason the G.P.O.s ground rent has to be paid to some *Lord* in the UK every year! (by our Govt!

Ah the Treaty,it would drive ya mad ya know,trying to decide if Collins idea of it being a stepping stone to a 32 county state,or Dev,s using it against Collins to undermine him!(even though Collins had begged Dev to go to London and negotiate with Llyod George as DEV was the de facto Taoiseach.

IMO DEV sat on the fence until he saw public reaction to the treaty,when he saw it was bad he knew he could go gun-ho after Collins.
a fascinating time in our history!

Actually the Irish public accepted the treaty, members of the Dáil who sat on the fence before the vote went home at Christmas to find the majority wanted it, that swung the vote in favour of it. Subsequently the election in 22 reaffirmed the majority were in favour of it. DeValera didn't have a clue what to do, he was full of rhetoric and eneded up following the loud boys at cabinet into a pointless and bloody war. Thankfully Lynch didn't go for it in 69 either.

Personally I was dissapointed by the doc. History, although trying to avoid 'what ifs' does generally brush over them, like 'what if the Nazis didn't invade Russia'. I wanted to know more about the dynamics in the cabinet, the differing voices, more about Lynch's ultimate decision not to go for it. The 'what if' section was embarassing, we didn't need full scale dramatisation of the thing. Tell us a little about it, maybe the historical context and opinions of what might have happened internationally-they did that to an extent but went way OTT with a half and hour. 10 mins would have been fine.

And jesus the swooshes and camera movements gave me a headache.