Aren't Japanese cars supposed to be cheaper?

CyberGhost

I just watched Fast and Furious, and the only thing liked was the Skyline R34 in it, went over to autotrade to find out how much do they cost and was very surprised by how expensive they are.

They cost around 25-28k euro, before the VRT, that's really expensive, I mean what's the point of that car when you can buy a mint M3 E46 for that price? I'm sure the build quality will be much higher and it's no less faster.

I guess it's no wonder those cars are so rare, one must be a real Japanophile to waste money on that car.

x in the city

Not an expert here, but the bmw would prob have better fittings and build quality

but

the skyline is a highly specialised piece of kit and very tunable

and is liable to blow a bmw into the horizon in the process....

CR 7

Read the respective wikipedia articles for the cars. Otherwise you'll just have to blindly trust the opinions of others here.

The r34 is in a completely different league in terms of technology, as well as being regarded as one of the best handling/most fun cars of all time.

Senna

CyberGhost wrote: »

I guess it's no wonder those cars are so rare, one must be a real Japanophile to waste money on that car.

Did you just start this thread because you dont like jap cars or just because you cant afford the shiny car you seen on TV?:rolleyes:

CyberGhost wrote: »

I mean what's the point of that car when you can buy a mint M3 E46 for that price?

OK so from now on, manufacturers have to stop making cars that the op considers in the same league as an M3. A GTR (i assume your talking about) is a completely different animal and if your considering a GTR (enough to buy one) chances are you will not be considering a M3 and vice versa.

Go back to your fast and furious :rolleyes:

CyberGhost

Senna wrote: »

Did you just start this thread because you dont like jap cars or just because you cant afford the shiny car you seen on TV?:rolleyes:



OK so from now on, manufacturers have to stop making cars that the op considers in the same league as an M3. A GTR (i assume your talking about) is a completely different animal and if your considering a GTR (enough to buy one) chances are you will not be considering a M3 and vice versa.

Go back to your fast and furious :rolleyes:

I started the thread because I wanted to discuss a GT-R R34, maybe somebody could explain what made that car so special, like I said, it surprised me how expensive that thing is.

What, can't we start a random thread anymore? or does it only have to be about road tax, insurance, which car to buy and how to repair this and that?

Orange69

CyberGhost wrote: »

I started the thread because I wanted to discuss a GT-R R34, maybe somebody could explain what made that car so special, like I said, it surprised me how expensive that thing is.

What, can't we start a random thread anymore? or does it only have to be about road tax, insurance, which car to buy and how to repair this and that?

You smack of troll tbh. Read the wiki entry like the previous poster recommended.

BlackWizard

CyberGhost wrote: »

What, can't we start a random thread anymore? or does it only have to be about road tax, insurance, which car to buy and how to repair this and that?

Welcome to the motors forum

You must not talk about anything that has been talked about before and if it is already on google or wiki then you can't talk about it either :pac::pac::pac:

martydunf

The M3 is a powerful car no doubt but is a lot more refined than the R34, the R34 is an out and out performance machine.

maidhc

CyberGhost wrote: »

I started the thread because I wanted to discuss a GT-R R34, maybe somebody could explain what made that car so special, like I said, it surprised me how expensive that thing is.

Why shouldn't it be expensive?

In fairness it isn't a Micra.

I must say jap sports cars are not my thing, but I can easily see the appeal.

Biro

Would the M3 be as popular if it didn't have a BMW badge? Doubt it. And it's not too long since a used M3 was around the same price as a similar aged R34 GTR. Of the two, the R34 is much faster around a track, much more tunable, much rarer in this country and no badge pretense.
No doubt they are expensive second hand, but many cars are over valued. The GTR wouldn't disappoint however if one did splash out. I'd sooner one to an M3.

galwaytt

CyberGhost wrote: »

.....They cost around 25-28k euro, before the VRT, that's really expensive, I mean what's the point of that car when you can buy a mint M3 E46 for that price?

.. first things first. What makes you think that's expensive ? Secondly, what makes you think the M3 is either a) better, or b)..well, desirable ? Every 2nd 318i in the bloody world has an 'M3' badge stuck on it at this stage, so I'd be all for putting as much distance between me and that as poss, tbh.......and the point ? It's a better car, technically,............

CyberGhost wrote: »

.....I'm sure the build quality will be much higher and it's no less faster.

assumption is the mother of all........anyhoo.......the reason the Nissan is so good IS the quality....

CyberGhost wrote: »

.....I guess it's no wonder those cars are so rare, one must be a real Japanophile to waste money on that car.

...so, the corollary of that is........you must be a real (insert adverb here :rolleyes: )...to waste money on an M3 that looks-like-a-318-with-extra-badges-on.... ??

x in the city wrote: »

Not an expert here, but the bmw would prob have better fittings and build quality

You assume, incorrectly.

maidhc wrote: »

Why shouldn't it be expensive?

In fairness it isn't a Micra.

+1

Biro wrote: »

Would the M3 be as popular if it didn't have a BMW badge? Doubt it. And it's not too long since a used M3 was around the same price as a similar aged R34 GTR. Of the two, the R34 is much faster around a track, much more tunable, much rarer in this country and no badge pretense.
No doubt they are expensive second hand, but many cars are over valued. The GTR wouldn't disappoint however if one did splash out. I'd sooner one to an M3.

++1

JHMEG

R34 GT-R is a twin turbo AWD technical tour-de-force that can was designed to be tuned and can be done so up to over 1000bhp.

M3 is a fast version of a family car.

kona

BMW M3 are for mostley people who have too much money and want people to think they are petrol heads.

When a real petrol head would have somthing better and less common for less.

Oh and BMW are expensive buckets of ****e.

Stainless_Steel

kona wrote: »

BMW M3 are for mostley people who have too much money and want people to think they are petrol heads.

Nail on the head there. M3 pffft!!

The GTR is like a caged animal on the road....take it to the track and you'll see why they're "expensive".

I actually find it quite good value considering its was one of the fastest production cars in the world not so long ago!

CR 7

This should help; (from wikipedia)

The Skyline GT-R became the flagship of Nissan performance, showcasing many advanced technologies including the ATTESA-ETS 4WD system and the Super-HICAS four-wheel steering. The GT-Rs remained inexpensive compared to its European rivals, with a list-price of ¥ 4.5 million (US$ 31,000). Today, the car is popular for import Drag Racing, Circuit Track, Time Attack and events hosted by tuning magazines. The GT-R actually is the winner in the 2007 Tsukuba Time Attack held in Japan-- the M-Speed GT-R (9 out of the top 15 cars consists of GT-Rs). Production of the GT-R officially ceased in August 2002.

Production figures
Standard Cars = 3,964
V-Spec = 7,301
N1 Race Version = 45[12]
Total = 11,310

The BMW M3 is a high-performance version of the BMW 3 Series compact car, developed by BMW's branch BMW M. M3 models have been derived from the E30, E36, E46 and E90/E92/E93 3-series, and sold with coupé, sedan and convertible body styles. Common upgrades over the "standard" 3-Series automobiles include more powerful and responsive (yet at times smaller) engines, improved handling/suspension, more aggressive aerodynamics/body, and multiple interior/exterior accents with the "M"/Motorsport nomenclature.

Can't find production figures, but the fact you could generally see at least one during most journeys tells it's own story.

WillieCocker

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

This should help; (from wikipedia)






Can't find production figures, but the fact you could generally see at least one during most journeys tells it's own story.

Agreed.
R34's are fairly rare.

M3/M5 are everywhere and a lot for sale now, not selling.

Zube

JHMEG wrote: »

M3 is a fast version of a family car.

By that measure, the R34 GT-R is a fast version of a Tokyo taxi.

But anyhoo, the OP has been given plenty of links to research the car, if he's interested. There's no need to copy-paste the wikipedia articles here!

JHMEG

Not you again.

M3 is derived from the standard 3-series. GT-R is derived from nothing.

Zube

JHMEG wrote: »

M3 is derived from the standard 3-series. GT-R is derived from nothing.

You never heard of the Skyline?

Biro

JHMEG wrote: »

Not you again.

M3 is derived from the standard 3-series. GT-R is derived from nothing.

The GTR is derived from nothing, however the Skyline GTR's - R34 and previous versions - are derived from the Saloon and Coupe Skyline's. Doesn't make the GTR versions any less of a car, as there's feck all similarities between the GTR and the next quickest model.

stealthyspeeder

kona wrote: »

BMW M3 are for mostley people who have too much money and want people to think they are petrol heads.

When a real petrol head would have somthing better and less common for less.

Oh and BMW are expensive buckets of ****e.

Im in no way a BMW fanboy (often a BMW basher!) and I agree with you that there are those M3 drivers who do not realise the full potential of their machine! But when you say better than an M3 for less money, what car/cars are you refering to?

An R34 GTR (and not THE GTR (09) which I think some ppl are refering to) is comparable to the M3 in terms of performance but not quite as good (unless its V-spec which ups the price signeficantly), however the comfort and refinment that the M3 offers is definately superior.

I would have a 2nd hand M3 over a second hand R34 GTR, but I would have THE GTR over a new M3!

pablosd

most people would be put off by immense running costs of m3, thats why they would be cheaper in the resale,
most r34 gtr's offered here are modded in some way pushing very good horsepower being reliable and relatively cheap to run + they are rare

remember that there always will be some dramers asking mad money for their cars!!!!

Biro

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Im in no way a BMW fanboy (often a BMW basher!) and I agree with you that there are those M3 drivers who do not realise the full potential of their machine! But when you say better than an M3 for less money, what car/cars are you refering to?

An R34 GTR (and not THE GTR (09) which I think some ppl are refering to) is comparable to the M3 in terms of performance but not quite as good (unless its V-spec which ups the price signeficantly), however the comfort and refinment that the M3 offers is definately superior.

I would have a 2nd hand M3 over a second hand R34 GTR, but I would have THE GTR over a new M3!

In what way exactly is the R34 GTR not up to E46 M3 standards of performance? It was a nice bit quicker around the ring, that's for sure.

stealthyspeeder

Biro wrote: »

In what way exactly is the R34 GTR not up to E46 M3 standards of performance? It was a nice bit quicker around the ring, that's for sure.

Its slower in staight line speeds which becomes greater as the speed increases (basically one the R34 has lost its 4WD advantage at start the M3 has it realed it in before 60mph), its pulls slower in every gear compared to the M3, and its braking distances are stopping times are more than the M3. While it may be quicker round the ring (and Tsukuba!) I would think this is due to clever suspension and elctronic controls and diffs. In terms of old fashioned performance (the way I think of it) The M3 would be superior but I do hear and understand your point!

cpoh1

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Its slower in staight line speeds which becomes greater as the speed increases (basically one the R34 has lost its 4WD advantage at start the M3 has it realed it in before 60mph), its pulls slower in every gear compared to the M3, and its braking distances are stopping times are more than the M3. While it may be quicker round the ring (and Tsukuba!) I would think this is due to clever suspension and elctronic controls and diffs. In terms of old fashioned performance (the way I think of it) The M3 would be superior but I do hear and understand your point!

So something like an s1 lotus elise with only 120 odd horsepower must be fairly crap using your performance criteria

CR 7

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Im in no way a BMW fanboy (often a BMW basher!) and I agree with you that there are those M3 drivers who do not realise the full potential of their machine! But when you say better than an M3 for less money, what car/cars are you refering to?

An R34 GTR (and not THE GTR (09) which I think some ppl are refering to) is comparable to the M3 in terms of performance but not quite as good (unless its V-spec which ups the price signeficantly), however the comfort and refinment that the M3 offers is definately superior.

I would have a 2nd hand M3 over a second hand R34 GTR, but I would have THE GTR over a new M3!

Well the problem with that is this:
Production figures
Standard Cars = 3,964
V-Spec = 7,301
N1 Race Version = 45[12]
Total = 11,310

The majority of them are the V-Spec model, so the majority of prices you will see will be of higher performance than the M3.

stealthyspeeder

cpoh1 wrote: »

So something like an s1 lotus elise with only 120 odd horsepower must be fairly crap using your performance criteria

Yes, I think Lotus Elises are crap, My performance criteria are the be all and end all, I am completely unaware of other factors including wieght, balance, and grip. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Come on lad, Im sure you get the point.

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

Well the problem with that is this:
Production figures
Standard Cars = 3,964
V-Spec = 7,301
N1 Race Version = 45[12]
Total = 11,310

The majority of them are the V-Spec model, so the majority of prices you will see will be of higher performance than the M3.

That would explain the higher prices! Can anyone name a saloon based performance car that is better than the M3 and cheaper than it as one poster suggested was possible for "real petrol heads"?

Cyrus

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

Read the respective wikipedia articles for the cars. Otherwise you'll just have to blindly trust the opinions of others here.

The r34 is in a completely different league in terms of technology, as well as being regarded as one of the best handling/most fun cars of all time.

to be fair directing someone to wikipedia is tantamount to the same thing

JHMEG wrote: »

R34 GT-R is a twin turbo AWD technical tour-de-force that can was designed to be tuned and can be done so up to over 1000bhp.

M3 is a fast version of a family car.

the m3 is as bespoke as the r34 gtr is, or not as the case may be

kona wrote: »

BMW M3 are for mostley people who have too much money and want people to think they are petrol heads.

When a real petrol head would have somthing better and less common for less.

Oh and BMW are expensive buckets of ****e.

thats a load of nonsense

look the r34 gtr is a great car no denying it, personally id prefer an m3 but i admire the gtrs aswell

that said a std 280bhp gtr could hardly spank an e46 m3, id imagine they are on a par at most things, and i know you can tune the gtr to 600-1000 bhp, but there are m3s out there like that too

robtri

Cyrus wrote: »

to be fair directing someone to wikipedia is tantamount to the same thing



the m3 is as bespoke as the r34 gtr is, or not as the case may be



thats a load of nonsense

look the r34 gtr is a great car no denying it, personally id prefer an m3 but i admire the gtrs aswell

that said a std 280bhp gtr could hardly spank an e46 m3, id imagine they are on a par at most things, and i know you can tune the gtr to 600-1000 bhp, but there are m3s out there like that too

+1

Biro

Cyrus wrote: »

to be fair directing someone to wikipedia is tantamount to the same thing



the m3 is as bespoke as the r34 gtr is, or not as the case may be



thats a load of nonsense

look the r34 gtr is a great car no denying it, personally id prefer an m3 but i admire the gtrs aswell

that said a std 280bhp gtr could hardly spank an e46 m3, id imagine they are on a par at most things, and i know you can tune the gtr to 600-1000 bhp, but there are m3s out there like that too

The 2.6 I6 Nissan unit is world renowned for it's reliable tuning capabilities, so I wouldn't bother comparing a tuned M3 to it!
Tuning aside, there's more to cars than straight line speed, and on that basis I'd have a GTR.
Based on all the responses here though even from other M3 fans, the conclusion has to be that the OP's post is silly and incorrect. Like either car or not, both are worth their money.

Stainless_Steel

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Can anyone name a saloon based performance car that is better than the M3 and cheaper than it as one poster suggested was possible for "real petrol heads"?

Evo?

I hate M3's myself...pure yuppy's car!

Matt Simis

What I dont get is why someone posting a moronic statement like Jap cars should be cheap (irrelevant of the model positioning and performance) is like an an invitation to BMW/German haters to come out of the woodwork and make equally retarded statements like "M3's are a pile of s***e".

Rather obviously M3s and M5s are not crap. By the same token the GTR, with its Worldwide respect and track plus technology prowess, is not crap, its rather excellent.

I would like to see the fit and finish of the new GTRs (or 370Zs) interior however, I would genuinely question the "quality" of it vs an M3 (or similar). Hopefully my brother isnt reading, but his (and presumably all) 350z really isnt very well put together. The choice of materials, assembly and even design of the windows is simply below the average German car. And Z cars are not mere average cars, they are extremely good in other more driver focused regards.

Im wondering if they have corrected this in the new gen because as influential to a person the interior and finish of a car is, it has to be a lot easier to get right than the nuts and bolts of performance cars, which they do so well.

cpoh1

Cyrus wrote: »

to be fair directing someone to wikipedia is tantamount to the same thing



the m3 is as bespoke as the r34 gtr is, or not as the case may be



thats a load of nonsense

look the r34 gtr is a great car no denying it, personally id prefer an m3 but i admire the gtrs aswell

that said a std 280bhp gtr could hardly spank an e46 m3, id imagine they are on a par at most things, and i know you can tune the gtr to 600-1000 bhp, but there are m3s out there like that too

I actually have to respectfully disagree cyrus. You and I both know that an awful lot of people out there who own M3's only have them because of the badge and kudos of the car itself. You wouldnt believe how many M3 owners i have spoken to who know nothing about their car mechanically and dont have any interest in performance cars in general. First E46 M3 i ever drive was owned by a bloody footballer for christs sake, has anybody ever seen a footballer in an R34 GTR?!

When people mention the skyline as being not truly bespoke because there are other models available with the same badge and rough chassis they are missing the point. When the R32 skyline was developed it was first created as a GTR and the chassis was developed from there with the lesser models. The M3 was designed from the opposite direction where the 3 series is usually in production a year at least before the M3 hits the roads.

The final thing is performance, the reason the R34 GTR has "280" bhp, was because of the japanese gentlemens agreement. My R32 had around 330hp with an air filter and catback exhaust on standard 95 unless with no remap. Its not just bhp figures either the GTR was setup to go around corners, were talking close to 30 seconds between a standard GTR and M3 on the ring.

If it was a straight shoot out between the E46 M3 and a GTR as a daily car the M3 would win hands down, its comfier, looks better and sounds great, ill probably have one withn the next 12 months. Id still have a GTR for a bit of fun over one any day of the week though.

cpoh1

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Yes, I think Lotus Elises are crap, My performance criteria are the be all and end all, I am completely unaware of other factors including wieght, balance, and grip. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Come on lad, Im sure you get the point.



That would explain the higher prices! Can anyone name a saloon based performance car that is better than the M3 and cheaper than it as one poster suggested was possible for "real petrol heads"?

You could pick up a moderately tuned R32 GTR for 7-8k these days, an R33 GTR can be got for 12-13k. An EVO 7 would set you back 14k and easily match an M3 performance wise and be cheaper too.

CyberGhost

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Im in no way a BMW fanboy (often a BMW basher!) and I agree with you that there are those M3 drivers who do not realise the full potential of their machine! But when you say better than an M3 for less money, what car/cars are you refering to?

An R34 GTR (and not THE GTR (09) which I think some ppl are refering to) is comparable to the M3 in terms of performance but not quite as good (unless its V-spec which ups the price signeficantly), however the comfort and refinment that the M3 offers is definately superior.

I would have a 2nd hand M3 over a second hand R34 GTR, but I would have THE GTR over a new M3!

I agree with this man,

The stock R34 GTR is slower than an M3, more expensive than an M3 and as for the build quality, what I meant was, the materials used in M3 are much higher quality, plastic, dashboard, everything.

R34 is a great kit car, if you are ready to splash A LOT of money on it, sure it's great but an M3 can be souped up with turbos are 1000 horses too.

cpoh1

CyberGhost wrote: »

I agree with this man,

The stock R34 GTR is slower than an M3, more expensive than an M3 and as for the build quality, what I meant was, the materials used in M3 are much higher quality, plastic, dashboard, everything.

R34 is a great kit car, if you are ready to splash A LOT of money on it, sure it's great but an M3 can be souped up with turbos are 1000 horses too.

Yeah but halfords dont stock all those M3 parts to get 1000bhp but they do for the GTR so its better HA!