Ideologically offensive movies

johnny_ultimate

This is something that I've found interesting over the last few weeks. Are there any films (acclaimed or otherwise) that you dislike because you don't agree with the ideology behind it? Not necessarily the obvious ones (like propaganda movies) but widely liked films that you just can't agree with? Not because they are bad films, but because their lessons are questionable or objectionable.

Couple of films spring to mind. One is Inglorious Basterds. Some reviewers here pointed out the fantasy American revenge against the Nazis made them a bit uncomfortable. Same could be said about a lot of war films though, usually always one sided arguments that act as heavily veiled propaganda (Clint Eastwood's duo Flags of our Fathers / Iwo Jima is interesting in that regard, but for its good intentions can't say I enjoyed Iwo Jima which is the only one I saw!). Michael Bay films in particular have always made a bit uneasy, and not just because they tend to be ****. Take the ludicrous pro-military stance he takes in the Transformers films. Problem with Bay is that this kind of pro-American interference nonsense is kind of hidden underneath the veil of a sci-fi film about robots beating the crap out of each other. Do these one-sided politics really belong in a mainstream blockbuster (with Obama's advisor being pretty much dropped kicked out of an airplane amongst other insidious political subtexts)? While I'm probably bias as someone who doesn't agree with conservative politics anyway, is it dangerous having these things being mass consumed. Is a young kid really going to have a balanced view of military action if it is helping out Optimus?

One film I've always disliked for this is The Breakfast Club (perhaps opening a can of worms here!), and not because of its political messages (is there one??). But despite the film being good fun and having a nice care free attitude, I was disgusted at the ending where

the goth girl gets a makeover and the jock suddenly falls in love with her

. I might be (okay, am) overthinking this, but that seriously is not a happy ending IMO. Basically a horrible looks conquer all kind of message. Maybe there is another interpretation (and I know a lot of the stereotypes in the film are firmly tounge in cheek) but I just hate that ending, and consequentially the film. John Hughes was a good director (Ferris Bueller is evidence of that) but that film always left a bad taste in my mouth because of that one moment which I can't agree with - especially when critics proclaim him as the voice of a generation.

I try not to think about all films in this way because if you do you'll just hate everything. But Transformers and Breakfast Club are two films I dislike because of their ideological stance (well, Transformers is rubbish anyway). Anyone else hate a film on purely ideological grounds?

LuckyLloyd

Well, I think a lot of the type of disagreeing paraded in this locked thread is in someway a function of ideological and cultural bias. You will have people who aren't too enamoured with American culture / foreign policy and prefer to look to the rest of the world in order to feed their brain. They'll usually be the ones trumpeting the failings of Hollywood / the brilliance of world cinema. Then you'll have those who are anti - corporate / big business / modern marketing and they'll be drawn to small budget / indie type films. People with defined political / economic leanings will be aghast at certain polemical type documentaries, etc, etc.

No - one (well the vast majority of people in my experience) truly has an open mind when they approach any art form. Your favourite movie is unlikely to carry a political or moral message you strongly disagree with; be set in a place you absolutely detest; filled with a section of society you personally loathe (well, unless the film cuts them to ribbons :pac:); or have stylistic leanings in terms of direction and music that doesn't fit in with your personal taste. You will gravitate towards art that fits your world view / that you find comfortable.

Now, I'm not saying that films can't change or modify viewpoints, or that all people will be unable to stomach movies that challenge them on an intellectual level. But in the here and now at any one time, the films you like the most will be representative of the person you believe yourself to be at this minute. You may go back to objects of cultural expression later in life and point to them and say 'that redefined my outlook, I didn't love it at the time but now it is my fav'. But the key will be that when you are saying that later on, you will have changed to fit the film, not the other way round. I'm sure people can think of movies that effected them in such a manner - or films that they used to love at certain points in their life that they can only smile wryly at now.

So yeah, in short: I do agree with you.

PunkFreud

Remember seeing that Zeitgeist film. Hated it since it was a pile of cack, preaching loads of conspiracy theories (Christianity, WTC, and one about the Federal Reserve [didn't really pay much attention to the last one]) and backing them up with "evidence"(some people quoted were in KKK and Devil Worshipers) and "references" (some sources were rederenced up to 100 times).

I don't think that one counts though since it was a "documentary" and if you didn't agree with the ideologies, you would never have liked the film.

I wouldn't adviseamyone to watch it, it acts smarter than it is, and is just GOD awful.

Otis Driftwood

Cant say I have and Ive watched alot of morally ambiguous films.

I guess the only one that would come close would be White Chicks.Its one of the most unfunny but more importantly,racist movies ever made but because it portrayed stereo types of caucasions instead of African Americans it was deemed acceptable.

Can you imagine Seth Rogan and the fat guy from Superbad* dressing up in black face and ripping the piss?

No,me neither.


*These pair of tits annoy the hell out of me but Im just using them to illustrate the point.

BlitzKrieg

hmm interesting topic

On inglorious basterds, I would feel considering tarintino's background (a complete film buff) it tends to work better to look at his films at how they relate to other films or genres rather then some idealogical notion. Case in point Inglorious bastards I assumed was predominantly a not very subtle commentary on media respresentation of world war two, especially from the american media (the line about *taking the jews out of film* from goebbals (i think) in the film sealed the deal for me). When you consider that films from japan, germany, france, italy and (a bit later) UK were taking very serious looks at world war 2 while in the US it was (and still is for a large part) the *justified* war (unless maybe the film is from the losers perspective then its a tragedy) so the films took very simple approach to the subject matter (nazi's bad) and now with the videogame market congested with killing nazi's its no secret what rib tarintino might have been pushing in some scenes. So inglorious bastards is more of a commentary on the countless american (and at one point british) fantasy revenge flicks that have already gone by.

But tarintino is so ovethetop and blatant with his point that while you might disagree ideologically with him, I doubt one would be offended because he's blatantly honest.


I guess this year I have only had one film where I have been outright disgusted by its ignorant sexist (and somewhat racist) opinion of the world and that was transformers 2.

Tyranax

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

hmm interesting topic

On inglorious basterds, I would feel considering tarintino's background (a complete film buff) it tends to work better to look at his films at how they relate to other films or genres rather then some idealogical notion. Case in point Inglorious bastards I assumed was predominantly a not very subtle commentary on media respresentation of world war two, especially from the american media (the line about *taking the jews out of film* from goebbals (i think) in the film sealed the deal for me). When you consider that films from japan, germany, france, italy and (a bit later) UK were taking very serious looks at world war 2 while in the US it was (and still is for a large part) the *justified* war (unless maybe the film is from the losers perspective then its a tragedy) so the films took very simple approach to the subject matter (nazi's bad) and now with the videogame market congested with killing nazi's its no secret what rib tarintino might have been pushing in some scenes. So inglorious bastards is more of a commentary on the countless american (and at one point british) fantasy revenge flicks that have already gone by.

But tarintino is so ovethetop and blatant with his point that while you might disagree ideologically with him, I doubt one would be offended because he's blatantly honest.


I guess this year I have only had one film where I have been outright disgusted by its ignorant sexist (and somewhat racist) opinion of the world and that was transformers 2.

And how. It was deliberate too. You know that bit in the movie where

John Turturro is on a pyramid underneath Devestator I think it was, who has the two wrecking balls swinging like testicles? And then he says "I am directly underneath the enemies scrotum?"

Yeah. That felt like the writers were pointing and laughing at me. Laughing at me for watching the film and spending money to see it.


A film who's ideology I disagreed with was Eastern Promises. A bit too gung ho in getting the job done I think. To specify:

I don't care if you are a policeman undercover. Rape isn't ok. Killing people isn't ok, with your training you shouldn't have to.

I was discussing this recently and came to the conclusion that while it may not put me off a film completely it will certainly lessen my enjoyment of a film.

The Breakfast Club is a as stated all ready a great example of this. The message seems to be conform to the standards of others in order to receive acceptance. It's something which always troubled me about the film and one which a writer of John Hughes caliber should have passed over.

White Chicks is another example. Had the film depiced two white men impersonating black girls and engaged in such stereotypical behavior the PC police would be all over it in a heart beat.

Kurtlar vadisi aka Valley of the Wolves is perhaps one of the film films whose ideology is truly despicable. The film perpetrates the myth that terrorist are honest to goodness heroes fighting against the big baddie that is America.

The ideology present in The Wind that Shakes the Barely is another which I really disliked. It painted the Irish as honest to goodness, salt of the earth types and the English as evil murdering invaders. In fact this ideology is present in a lot of films and while there is some truth to it there over simplification of the roles does grate.

johnny_ultimate

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, I think a lot of the type of disagreeing paraded in this locked thread is in someway a function of ideological and cultural bias. You will have people who aren't too enamoured with American culture / foreign policy and prefer to look to the rest of the world in order to feed their brain. They'll usually be the ones trumpeting the failings of Hollywood / the brilliance of world cinema. Then you'll have those who are anti - corporate / big business / modern marketing and they'll be drawn to small budget / indie type films. People with defined political / economic leanings will be aghast at certain polemical type documentaries, etc, etc.

No - one (well the vast majority of people in my experience) truly has an open mind when they approach any art form. Your favourite movie is unlikely to carry a political or moral message you strongly disagree with; be set in a place you absolutely detest; filled with a section of society you personally loathe (well, unless the film cuts them to ribbons :pac:); or have stylistic leanings in terms of direction and music that doesn't fit in with your personal taste. You will gravitate towards art that fits your world view / that you find comfortable.

Now, I'm not saying that films can't change or modify viewpoints, or that all people will be unable to stomach movies that challenge them on an intellectual level. But in the here and now at any one time, the films you like the most will be representative of the person you believe yourself to be at this minute. You may go back to objects of cultural expression later in life and point to them and say 'that redefined my outlook, I didn't love it at the time but now it is my fav'. But the key will be that when you are saying that later on, you will have changed to fit the film, not the other way round. I'm sure people can think of movies that effected them in such a manner - or films that they used to love at certain points in their life that they can only smile wryly at now.

So yeah, in short: I do agree with you.

Yeah I do agree personal taste would be a significant factor in this argument - while some will always praise the latest indie film for being different, others will scorn it for being overwritten. Taste and upbringing will always influence the interpretation of a film, and no one is ever, ever culturally neutral.

Moreso in this thread though I think the ones which are a little more, shall we say, subtle or manipulative in their ideological leanings would be interesting. You'll always spot the liberal agenda in a Michael Moore film (his latest opus is, after all, called Capitalism: A Love Story) and that's a whole other argument. But is underlying promotion of ideals in supposed 'mere entertainment' a danger? While some will say District 9 is good for tackling huge social issues in the guise of a sci-fi movie (and I have a feeling I'll like it more than Transformers), there is bound to be someone out there who disagrees with it for precisely that reason.

You're right when it comes down to taste though - I for one always find it ridiculous when uber-conservative Christians bemoan the Satanism of Harry Potter. But perhaps in their ideology these (realistically harmless) films are indeed damaging, and they do have as much a right to argue their point, even though there is no way in hell a lot of people are going to agree with them. I just think its interesting to see where some people see light entertainment, others see ideological warfare.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I guess this year I have only had one film where I have been outright disgusted by its ignorant sexist (and somewhat racist) opinion of the world and that was transformers 2.

I was going to mention the racism in Transformers 2, but I think Michael Bay makes criticising his films way too easy. Everything about that film - from the absurd posing of Megan Fox to the jaw-droppingly offensive Amos and An... sorry... The Twins, it is one whole heap of "I can't believe they are getting away with this". TBH don't know why I even bothered seeing it after the first one (was feeling lazy in a foreign country and was the only thing on in English!) but it is just a ridiculous piece of work.

L31mr0d

It really is a hard question to comment on because a personal and societally influenced ideology can be fairly broad in scope.

I guess I'd veer slightly in the direction of nihilism, and in such there is really little in the substance of a movie that would impact on my personal ideology and affect my opinion of it.

The Breakfast club, I personally found it insipid tbh but the Jock liking the girl after the makeover didn't bother me.

So yeah, I guess I'm not going to be much help to this thread :P as my ideology is basically that no one ideology is right or wrong. It's all about subjective perspective on the medium portraying the message.

mike65

I wuz offended by Starship Troopers!

Did anyone mention Triumph of the Will?

indough

the worst are propaganda pieces dressed up so well that many people cant tell, like 'the patriot' for example, where they rewrote history by attributing nazi war crimes to the british in the war of independence, also another example being u-571 where they again invented history to make out the americans captured the first enigma machine

nyarlothothep

I don't really get offended by most ideological films as I simply don't care much for them or whether the mainstream buys into it or not, its their choice, maybe they'll recognize it for what it is, maybe not or perhaps they won't care either way and take it at face value as just a film rather than a political treatise. I would be concerned however if they had very tangible effects but I don't know whether they have at a sufficient level.

I do have preferences, for example airforce one or the patriot are typical examples of gung ho america which I find amusing even though I don't agree with the messages put forth, which are naive and childish. Films like The Baader Meinhof Complex put forward an impression of terrorist chic but again its just art, I find the concept interesting though I may not agree with it. Films such as Starship Troopers or Robocop I thoroughly enjoy as they're ridiculing authoritarianism/brute force etc while at the same time paying homage to it, kind of like politically incorrect liberalism. The last film that I found objectionable was The Recruit, particularly the line that republican women are hot, I just thought it was way to partisan and difficult to stomach given the triumphant powerful wave of republican evangelicalism at the time.

krudler

She's All That is a big offender for me, "frumpy" girl who has talent in art, doesnt follow the hip high school crowd and is actually incredibley attractive as herself even though she shock,horror, wears glasses and ties up her hair, in a character change of Clark Kent proportions she takes off her glasses, squeezes into a miniskirt and hey, everythings good now because she was hot all along and now she's a different person, only in movies could this be the ugliest and most unpopular girl in school:

TheIrishGrover

Forrest Gump:

I've said this in another thread but I thought it sent a real dodgy message. Conform and do everything that's asked of you without thinking and you'll be rich and successful. Rebel and do your own thing and you'll get AIDS.

CliffHuxtabel

Like someone else said in another thread the other day.... 'Ghostbusters' seems kinda right wing the way the person from the EPA is cast as the evil, devil-bearded bureaucrat.

Blisterman

The History Boys

Teacher molests students, 40 years younger than him and it's not portrayed badly at all. The boys are shown to enjoy it, and you're supposed to feel sorry for the teacher when he gets reprimanded.

Just doesn't sit well to me.

Gunther_Gloop

Good topic. I was thinking along the same lines and wrote about it recently.

(...following cut & pasted from here...)

I don't like films with "agendas" -even if it's in support of a viewpoint I might otherwise agree with. At least not an agenda that must be conformed to in order to appreciate the tale at hand. If I want to be preached at I'll go to church. I don't think any "art" (and by that I do include "entertainment") should have any leaning bias.

Viewers should be free to form their own conclusions and opinions -not have it forced upon them.

Pleasantville is an example off the top of my head.
It's black & white and slowly goes into colour as characters develop less "50s strict" lifestyles and learn to live in increasingly more liberal ways.

pleasantville1
You go girl! Because you're worth it!

I believe the ideology of that movie has been remade a few times. 'Chocolat' is the same story from what I recall, this time using chocolate instead of colour. There have been others before and since -on both sides of the left/right wing agenda

Michael Moore films are basically a list of things Michael Moore believes are right (or 'right on') and anyone who disagrees with any part of the list is wronger than Wrongy Wrong McWrong... and here's a stoopid 5 minute clip that shows people with that viewpoint making a mess while trying to eat chicken. *CLEARLY* they're wrong!

.

Ratatouille and everything by Brad I-can-do-no-wrong Bird is nothing short of a rant (yes I see the irony, but I'm not making a movie here).

Ratatouille: "If you say anything bad about this movie you are an idiot. Nyeh nyeh nyeh nyeh!"

The Iron Giant: NRA-funded? "It's right to carry guns as long as we're nice."

The Incredibles: "You want originality?? ...What are you a communist!?" (to be honest I'd have to watch it again to go over what I hated about it, but I'm not going to, so there!)


I was debating with myself as to whether I'd go see Inglorious Basterds (sic), because I think Quentin Tarantino can be a great director, but has been given a rope longer than he needed to hang himself with. And he has.

Kill Bill 1 was a bit of a director's mess -everything stylewise overbaked. But Kill Bill 2 was one of the worst movies I've ever seen -everybody just yabbered on and on and on and on. And on. And on. And on.

And on. But it didn't matter who said what because they all spoke only Tarantino. And nobody speaks like that, or actually hails it as anything worthwhile, except QT. I gave Death Proof a miss and I'm glad I did.

IB looks like it could be good, but apart from the above 'problem' I also don't like the whole "gonna get us some Nazi scalps" philosophy. I think US cinema on the whole needs to grow up a little. I say that as an avid US movie fan. My whole movie viewing life has been dominated by US films even if I do also watch movies from other places.

But why can't people actually go to PRISON in US movies? Ever!?
Don't they believe in the justice system in that country? Why does there HAVE to be the whole personal retribution and revenge climax to every single movie that has a character that does something bad?

Even when this is not the case, the movie is hailed as great BECAUSE of this simple dose of reality. ...You mean the baddies went to JAIL!? Gee wiz that's amazing! (I could mention the name of the 2008/2009 movie I'm thinking of there, but that would spoil it a little bit for some people)

Another movie with an agenda of a different kind is Million Dollar Baby. Two-dimensional stereotypes dance around the canvas until the agenda plants the knockout blow. Baloney.

milliondollarbaby1

(I do love a lot of Clint Eastwood movies by the way. I'm not making a personal attack here.)

.

Dexter is not a movie (yet), but it's a pretty successful TV series. I refuse to watch it because of its philosophy: "It's OK to kill -and to serially kill- and to do it in grotesque ways, if you only kill baddies."

I did see one episode and I admit it was well written -and it doesn't actually "state" that Dexter is a good guy, but yet one needs to actually empathise somewhat with the character and to care what happens to him and to feel like certain other characters SHOULD die in order to make it possible to watch. I have absolutely ZERO wish to empathise with a serial killer -or even to share a moment or a thought with them and I find it disgusting that so many people don't see it that way.
For that reason I won't watch Dexter.

Of course an argument could be made along the same lines concerning The Sopranos, but that would not hold up -The Sopranos might involve killers and psychos, but it was never about their murders nor did it seek to justify their murders or lifestyles.

.

I believe "art" should present a story or a seed of a thought and allow the audience/ viewer/ listener to form their own views around it rather than have the whole thing prepackaged in a way that requires no thought afterwards. What's to think about? The good guys won. The baddies lost. End of.

I could give more examples - hell most mainstream english-language movies are in this boat I would say (to some extent) but that doesn't excuse them in my book.

I think I've said enough. Please don't take it personally if I've ripped on a favourite of yours.

Kooli

Such an interesting topic OP!

I'm just gonna paraphrase myself from another thread on here, but what bothers me is the rotten message at the core of a lot of American Rom-coms.

The stories I'm talking about are where an uptight, career-focused woman is taught about being a 'real woman' by being brought to the deep south or some other small town and melted by some old-fashioned 'family values'.

These are movies like Sweet Home Alabama, The Proposal, Baby Boom, The Family Stone...
Just because they are 'harmless' rom-coms, I don't think it makes it any less sinister! Is there any example of a movie the other way round? e.g. uptight hard-ass business man is taken to a small town and learns about the importance of family and being a father, and that his career isn't really so important after all. Would that even work?

Kooli

Gunther_Gloop wrote: »

Dexter is not a movie (yet), but it's a pretty successful TV series. I refuse to watch it because of its philosophy: "It's OK to kill -and to serially kill- and to do it in grotesque ways, if you only kill baddies."

This same sentiment could be applied to all the American action blockbusters that I hate. I don't care if it's 'just a movie' - these kind of things do seep into your consciousness if you watch enough of them

Blisterman

Kooli wrote: »

Just because they are 'harmless' rom-coms, I don't think it makes it any less sinister! Is there any example of a movie the other way round? e.g. uptight hard-ass business man is taken to a small town and learns about the importance of family and being a father, and that his career isn't really so important after all. Would that even work?

There's loads of movies with plots similar to that. For example, Rain Man (if you substitute Father for Brother).

bnt

mike65 wrote: »

I wuz offended by Starship Troopers!

Did anyone mention Triumph of the Will?

Yes, Paul Verhoeven (the director) did - it was a confirmed stylistic influence. I thought the ending was offensive, in that the totalitarian state simply swept the losses under the carpet and carried on with the jingoist "bug" propaganda. The whole film was supposed to be offensive - since an unjustified war is offensive.

I imagine some people might find the ending of The Fountainhead offensive:

Not only does Roark (the architect) get away with blowing up a building because the construction deviated from his plans, he also gets the girl.

If so, just wait until Hollywood gets started on Atlas Shrugged, which they've been planning to make for years, and the book is more popular than ever now. Brad & Angelina were originally involved, but not any more, apparently.

johnny_ultimate

Kooli wrote: »

Just because they are 'harmless' rom-coms, I don't think it makes it any less sinister! Is there any example of a movie the other way round? e.g. uptight hard-ass business man is taken to a small town and learns about the importance of family and being a father, and that his career isn't really so important after all. Would that even work?

Yeah rom-coms as a genre teach ludicrous ideals for the most part. I was recently on a long haul flight, and in the last few hours a friend kept pestering me to watch He's Just Not That Into You for comedy value (having exhausted anything resembling quality programming hours before). Bad idea in hindsight, but a pretty fascinating insight into contemporary mainstream cinema. The lessons taught by these shrew, hugely unlikable characters were absurd: marriage is great, men are assholes, Justin Long is the kind of person to turn to for relationship help etc. etc... And some of the characters getting 'happy' endings after abandoning any moral backbone they had is just a horrible turn of events.

This same sentiment could be applied to all the American action blockbusters that I hate. I don't care if it's 'just a movie' - these kind of things do seep into your consciousness if you watch enough of them

And that, unfortunately, is the central problem. While I like to think most moviegoers are sensible enough to filter this stuff out and take it with a pinch of salt, many people probably aren't media savvy enough to interpret these messages and probably take it more seriously then they should. If a message is repeated often enough, it will at some point be accepted by people. And manipulating entertainment to do this is a dangerous tool.

rubadub

Supersize me, though it did get some interesting other studies/experiments done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me#Alternative_experiments

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Kurtlar vadisi aka Valley of the Wolves is perhaps one of the film films whose ideology is truly despicable. The film perpetrates the myth that terrorist are honest to goodness heroes fighting against the big baddie that is America.

Is there not a myth that the big baddies are all these mid-eastern terrorists and that America is the honest to goodness hero fighting for world peace and democracy ?

During the Cold War , propagandist films with the flag waving American hero versus the evil saddistic Soviet bad guy were quite common. Rocky IV and Red Dawn are two notable mentions along with Rambo III of course. (Actually, Red Dawn and Rambo were once considered the most violent films ever made due to the number of violent acts in them). Anti-Arab sentement has always been high in many American films and The Delta Force was probably the most notorious. Also, just about all of John Wayne's films were almost always made from an amzingly bigoted point of view.

nyarlothothep

yeah the films were indians are always portrayed as the bad guys are a disgrace.

InvisibleBadger

The Life and death of David Gale made me rage big style.
I also agree with the poster who said the bad guys never go to prison, death seems to be the only form of justice in films.

bernardo mac

I think John Wayne was involved in The Green Berets[Vietnam].Turned out to be counter productive American propaganda,if my memory serves me well

krudler

Yes, Paul Verhoeven (the director) did - it was a confirmed stylistic influence. I thought the ending was offensive, in that the totalitarian state simply swept the losses under the carpet and carried on with the jingoist "bug" propaganda. The whole film was supposed to be offensive - since an unjustified war is offensive

Starship Troopers is a satire though its in no way supposed to be taken seriously, its a dig at everything from fascism to American military action in Vietnam (huge army of invaders with superior firepower are massacred by natives with no technology, see Aliens for the same thing )

Plus Starship Troopers is awesome

greendom

Top Gun delivered blandness and ideological offensiveness in equal measure

Earthhorse

Interesting topic. Have to say I find the whole Mafia genre of movie if not offensive, then unappealing. A bunch of total scum, whom you would never in a million years think of associating with in real life, but hey, it's okay because they dress well and look out for their family. Forgedaboudit.

Surprised at the number of people who found The Breakfast Club offensive. Yes, that scene sends a negative message but overall the movie's message is not about conformity but about how most of us are different only on the surface.

Would agree with those who say there is not enough prison in American film; without wishing to sound like some Daily Mail reading alarmist there is way too much violence in the culture we consume, including film.

The Recliner

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Yeah rom-coms as a genre teach ludicrous ideals for the most part. I was recently on a long haul flight, and in the last few hours a friend kept pestering me to watch He's Just Not That Into You for comedy value (having exhausted anything resembling quality programming hours before). Bad idea in hindsight, but a pretty fascinating insight into contemporary mainstream cinema. The lessons taught by these shrew, hugely unlikable characters were absurd: marriage is great, men are assholes, Justin Long is the kind of person to turn to for relationship help etc. etc... And some of the characters getting 'happy' endings after abandoning any moral backbone they had is just a horrible turn of events.



And that, unfortunately, is the central problem. While I like to think most moviegoers are sensible enough to filter this stuff out and take it with a pinch of salt, many people probably aren't media savvy enough to interpret these messages and probably take it more seriously then they should. If a message is repeated often enough, it will at some point be accepted by people. And manipulating entertainment to do this is a dangerous tool.

I would put Bride Wars up there too

I was forced to watch it a while back and it was just offensive to both males and females, there were no characters with redeeming features in it at all

The women were bitches, the men were doormats and they got their happy endings

I have a high tolerance for sh!te movies but this was just awful

faceman

An interesting topic. Film is a very powerful media. we often find ourselves emmersed in a world with morales are defined by the film makers and we quickly accept the film makers morales as being that of society.

Many films use revenge and vengence the theme of the film. Murder and violence is justified as being ok as long as the the revenge/vengence is being dished out by those who suffered in the film. Im sure I dont need to name any films in this, almost every American movie with guns in it offers it as a story to some degree. Now dont get me wrong, Im not Ms. Whitehouse saying "down with this sort of thing". Its entertainment at the end of the day. However the film maker should not assume his audience to be a lapdogs.

Somebody mentioned, "shes all that". I whole heartedly agree. A deeply horrendous movie that tries to instill the very sexist and class values that society has tried to drop for decades. Its rampant in Hollywood.

krudler

Its not a film but that Diet Coke ad seriously pisses me off, the one with women opening jars for a guy, pulling funny faces at her weddings pics, pinching a guys arse etc, its anti male advertising, can you imagine the uproar it would cause if that ad had guys doing things like killing spiders, changing tyres and all the other cliche things that women "arent able to do without men" its ok to empower women in ads, not problem at all with that, the Boots ads where men in the office are decpited as balding fat guys who pick crappy presents but women get great ones is the same, even the theme song "here come the girls" ? wtf so only women shop at boots?

jasonbourme.cs

Kooli wrote: »

Just because they are 'harmless' rom-coms, I don't think it makes it any less sinister! Is there any example of a movie the other way round? e.g. uptight hard-ass business man is taken to a small town and learns about the importance of family and being a father, and that his career isn't really so important after all. Would that even work?

family man with nic cage would be closest to this

AnonoBoy

Kooli wrote: »

e.g. uptight hard-ass business man is taken to a small town and learns about the importance of family and being a father, and that his career isn't really so important after all. Would that even work?

Box of Moonlight starring John Turturro is something along these lines.

Difference is it's a well-directed, well-acted movie.

Gunther_Gloop

krudler wrote: »

Its not a film but that Diet Coke ad seriously pisses me off, the one with women opening jars for a guy, pulling funny faces at her weddings pics, pinching a guys arse etc, its anti male advertising, can you imagine the uproar it would cause if that ad had guys doing things like killing spiders, changing tyres and all the other cliche things that women "arent able to do without men" its ok to empower women in ads, not problem at all with that, the Boots ads where men in the office are decpited as balding fat guys who pick crappy presents but women get great ones is the same, even the theme song "here come the girls" ? wtf so only women shop at boots?

Almost every 2nd ad on radio and tv is like that when you look close enough. A woman is *never* the butt of the joke. It's always the man. That's because men are not brothers the way women are "sisters".

It's not like it's a big problem, but at times they do go too far IMO. The problem is "going too far" is often based on the number of ads that do this rather than any one being particularly bad.

kaimera

the hannah montana movie.

ffs, like miley could ever be a country girl.

she's far far better than that. *hmph* I was insulted by that insinuation.

Red Sleeping Beauty

krudler wrote: »

Starship Troopers is a satire though its in no way supposed to be taken seriously, its a dig at everything from fascism to American military action in Vietnam (huge army of invaders with superior firepower are massacred by natives with no technology, see Aliens for the same thing )

Plus Starship Troopers is awesome

It's a satire without a doubt, a lot of Verhoeven's films are! I was justing watching the third Troopers and the writer commented how the first one was kind of a spin on the World Wars and the third one was then a satire on the Korean war.

komodosp

Kind of a twist on this, films whose ideology I agree with but are made so clumsily that I don't like them.
Fahrenheit 911 and Bowling for Columbine - especially the former. I agree with some of the sentiments expressed therein, but I think the way Michael Moore portrayed it was propoganda to the point of being ridiculous. He practises the exact same kind of "selective journalism" that he accuses the right-wing press of doing. Especially in Fahrenheit 911. I nearly wouldn't be surprised if he actually worked for George Bush and was trying to make these ridiculous movies knowing they'd be discredited therefore discrediting the entire anti-Bush side.

"She's all that" - this to me wasn't offensive, it was bloody hilarious! Take the most attractive girl in the school, pretend to the viewer she's the most unattractive one and take off her glasses... Oh look she was beautiful all along!!! I can't help wondering how this movie would have worked if they got an actual ugly girl and had to make her the prom queen or whatever it was... But as it is it kind of defeats the message of the movie...

Movies that are ideologically offensive:
the Star Wars sexology! (If that's a word)

SPOILERS

You have this guy, Darth Vader, who is a genocidal maniac, a mass murderer and an evil dictator. And BTW we see from the prequels he was evil pretty much all of his adult life. Turns against the Jedi, murders children, and a village of those other creatures (who admittedly kidnapped his mother), oppressed a federation of planets, blows up an entire planet destroying a civilisation, presumably does a lot more stuff that we don't see making him the feared guy we know him as...

Then has a last-minute death bed repentance... "Sorry guys, it was the Dark Side's fault, not mine!" and we're supposed to forgive all, he's not such a bad guy after all's said and done!
In fairness, maybe we should afford the emperor the same forgiveness - he might only have been evil because of the Dark Side too but he didn't have a powerful-yet-good-intentioned son to come and turn him back...

I wouldn't say there too many Alderanians cheering at the end of Return Of The Jedi and they probably wouldn't appreciate when the ghosts of Yoda, and Obi-wan appear with Anakin... I'm sure to them it would be a bit be Osama bin Laden having a last minute change of heart then his face being carved into Mount Rushmore would be to Americans

Penn

komodosp wrote: »

Movies that are ideologically offensive:
the Star Wars sexology! (If that's a word)

SPOILERS

You have this guy, Darth Vader, who is a genocidal maniac, a mass murderer and an evil dictator. And BTW we see from the prequels he was evil pretty much all of his adult life. Turns against the Jedi, murders children, and a village of those other creatures (who admittedly kidnapped his mother), oppressed a federation of planets, blows up an entire planet destroying a civilisation, presumably does a lot more stuff that we don't see making him the feared guy we know him as...

Then has a last-minute death bed repentance... "Sorry guys, it was the Dark Side's fault, not mine!" and we're supposed to forgive all, he's not such a bad guy after all's said and done!
In fairness, maybe we should afford the emperor the same forgiveness - he might only have been evil because of the Dark Side too but he didn't have a powerful-yet-good-intentioned son to come and turn him back...

I wouldn't say there too many Alderanians cheering at the end of Return Of The Jedi and they probably wouldn't appreciate when the ghosts of Yoda, and Obi-wan appear with Anakin... I'm sure to them it would be a bit be Osama bin Laden having a last minute change of heart then his face being carved into Mount Rushmore would be to Americans

I love this exchange from Chasing Amy:

Hooper: Always some white boy gotta invoke the holy trilogy. Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this ****: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!
Banky Edwards: What's a Nubian?
Hooper: Shut the **** up! Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good ****. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the ****in' universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star. Now what the **** do you call that?
Banky Edwards: Intergalactic civil war?
Hooper: Gentrification! They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!
Banky Edwards: Well, isn't that true?

Mark Hamill

krudler wrote: »

Its not a film but that Diet Coke ad seriously pisses me off, the one with women opening jars for a guy, pulling funny faces at her weddings pics, pinching a guys arse etc, its anti male advertising, can you imagine the uproar it would cause if that ad had guys doing things like killing spiders, changing tyres and all the other cliche things that women "arent able to do without men" its ok to empower women in ads, not problem at all with that, the Boots ads where men in the office are decpited as balding fat guys who pick crappy presents but women get great ones is the same, even the theme song "here come the girls" ? wtf so only women shop at boots?

What about that ad for yoghurts or health bars or something (cant remember exactly what), which had two women at a health spa who see an attractive man go into the sauna, so one of them steals his towel and the guy has run by almost naked. If tha roles where reversed, with two men doing it to a woman, there would have murder, with the two men probably arrested for sexual harrassment.

Mark Hamill

Gunther_Gloop wrote: »

The Iron Giant: NRA-funded? "It's right to carry guns as long as we're nice."

Iron Giant was NRA funded? They should get their money back, because I thought it came across as incredibly anti gun.

komodosp

What about that ad for yoghurts or health bars or something (cant remember exactly what), which had two women at a health spa who see an attractive man go into the sauna, so one of them steals his towel and the guy has run by almost naked. If tha roles where reversed, with two men doing it to a woman, there would have murder, with the two men probably arrested for sexual harrassment.

I've nothing against those ads... And I'm hoping that pretty soon they'll cop on and they'll reverse the role reversal thing, and we'll see that it's harmless fun either way

uncleoswald

Originally Posted by krudler
Its not a film but that Diet Coke ad seriously pisses me off, the one with women opening jars for a guy, pulling funny faces at her weddings pics, pinching a guys arse etc, its anti male advertising, can you imagine the uproar it would cause if that ad had guys doing things like killing spiders, changing tyres and all the other cliche things that women "arent able to do without men" its ok to empower women in ads, not problem at all with that, the Boots ads where men in the office are decpited as balding fat guys who pick crappy presents but women get great ones is the same, even the theme song "here come the girls" ? wtf so only women shop at boots?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What about that ad for yoghurts or health bars or something (cant remember exactly what), which had two women at a health spa who see an attractive man go into the sauna, so one of them steals his towel and the guy has run by almost naked. If tha roles where reversed, with two men doing it to a woman, there would have murder, with the two men probably arrested for sexual harrassment.

I have to roll my eyes a little when men (and some women too) get all precious when an ad that pokes fun of men comes on, you'll always hear "can you imagine the uproar if it the other way round." Yorkie Bar ads anyone? Never met a girl who has been even remotely offended by that one. Woman have been genuinely ridiculed in advertisements for decades, a bit of tongue in cheek retaliation is not out of order.

I found Knocked Up and and a lot of recent "lads" comedies to be pretty uninspiring in terms of rolls for women and some downright sexist in their unending portrayal of women as either humourless sensible types or man-hungry shrews. But then most movies aimed at women portray women as men-desperate shells so maybe the female cinema going public deserve this treatment.

greendom

uncleoswald wrote: »

I have to roll my eyes a little when men (and some women too) get all precious when an ad that pokes fun of men comes on, you'll always hear "can you imagine the uproar if it the other way round." Yorkie Bar ads anyone? Never met a girl who has been even remotely offended by that one. Woman have been genuinely ridiculed in advertisements for decades, a bit of tongue in cheek retaliation is not out of order.

]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9fFOelpE_8

L31mr0d

uncleoswald wrote: »

I have to roll my eyes a little when men (and some women too) get all precious when an ad that pokes fun of men comes on, you'll always hear "can you imagine the uproar if it the other way round."

What the man says: "can you imagine the uproar if it was the other way round" :mad:
What the man thinks: "I wanted to see boobies not hairy man ass"

Handsome Bob

Pretty much every recent film on Hooliganism to be honest. From Greenstreet to Football Factory (and from the sounds of it the recent remake of The Firm), they are just unapologetic films for knackers. Here's two quotes from Nick Love on his remake of The Firm;

"I think if you get bogged down in the politics behind it all, it would play less as entertainment.........which is what I'm aiming this at, you've got to have big fight scenes and lots of loud music".

"I'm not making films for film critics," says Love. "I'm not trying to be an arthouse filmmaker... I'm making films for the ****ing chav generation."

That just pisses me off, he's happy to make irresponsible **** films on a very serious subject devoid of any socio-political commentary. Alan Clarke must be turning in his grave.

Pretty much every rom-com offends me too, especially since an even worse breed seems to be on the horizon spearheaded by Katherine Heigl.

Gunther_Gloop

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Iron Giant was NRA funded? They should get their money back, because I thought it came across as incredibly anti gun.

Nope. Watch it again.

dresden8

Kooli wrote: »

Such an interesting topic OP!

I'm just gonna paraphrase myself from another thread on here, but what bothers me is the rotten message at the core of a lot of American Rom-coms.

The stories I'm talking about are where an uptight, career-focused woman is taught about being a 'real woman' by being brought to the deep south or some other small town and melted by some old-fashioned 'family values'.

These are movies like Sweet Home Alabama, The Proposal, Baby Boom, The Family Stone...
Just because they are 'harmless' rom-coms, I don't think it makes it any less sinister! Is there any example of a movie the other way round? e.g. uptight hard-ass business man is taken to a small town and learns about the importance of family and being a father, and that his career isn't really so important after all. Would that even work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Hollywood

Gunther_Gloop

dresden8 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Hollywood

And it's remake: Cars.

loveissucide

Juno.The cutsiness of it creeped me out,surely if she's 16 and pregnant it should be a bit more serious than that.Plus the views on abortion and adoption were remarkably glib.

Easy Rider. Bloody hippies,filled with a deeply immature attititude towards society,and like much hippie-era gibberish is both antiwar and sexist.

James Bond films.Why is the fate of the Western World being put in the hands of an alcoholic,misognyst,trigger-happy public schoolboy?