Government

Seloth

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about it as Im really thinking of doing this next year.

lovechem

I do it its awesome loads of politics bitta law and a bitta commerce. there's a good balance! the class is small enough so you'd know everyone pretty well.

Seloth

What kinda classes d'you yeah do in it,Like I'm guessing Political Science and Econmoics are some of them

lovechem

-Intro to Pol Sci-Semesters 1&2
-Eu Politics-Semester 1
-Gov&Pol of Ireland-Semesters 1&2
-Citizenship & Human Rights-Semester 2
-Public Law-Semesters 1&2
-Public and Private Management-Semester 1&2
-Intro to Management and Organisation-Semester 1
-Social P olicy Analysis-Semester 2

Then you pick a 10 credit optional module which has a choice of like Economics, Languages, Writing and Communication, Public Health etc.

Seloth

Ah cool,cause I'm really interested in getting into politics when I've finished school and stuff.

Haru

Seloth wrote: »

Ah cool,cause I'm really interested in getting into politics when I've finished school and stuff.

If that's not already the case, maybe you should get in touch with one of the societies like Labour Youth, FF, and the such in UCC ?

Seloth

My mother second cousin whos a TD told me to do exactly that heh.

ALincoln

The good thing about this course is primarily the fact that they hand out a 2.1 to any old Johnny or Mary that shows up on more than one occasion, and many's a first has been given too, statistically higher than most other courses. It's because they need people to apply, you see.

Seloth

I've no idea what you mean :pac:

All I got from that was there isnt many people doing it and I knew that already heh.Isint it one of the least hours courses as well

invincibleirish

ALincoln wrote: »

The good thing about this course is primarily the fact that they hand out a 2.1 to any old Johnny or Mary that shows up on more than one occasion, and many's a first has been given too, statistically higher than most other courses. It's because they need people to apply, you see.

OP just be wary that comments like above are of course bull****, in UCC you get a lot of people talking crap like above.

You like the course content then you'll do well, don't and you won't.

JeffTheJeff

Anyone here actually doing the course? I'd love to get in touch to ask about books etc. I'm due to register on Wednsday.

ALincoln

invincibleirish wrote: »

OP just be wary that comments like above are of course bull****, in UCC you get a lot of people talking crap like above.

You like the course content then you'll do well, don't and you won't.

There's nothing crap about it. Government does give out a disproportionately high quota of firsts.

Why are you seemingly representing this as a bad thing?

Seloth

Because it implies that the course is a joke.

invincibleirish

ALincoln wrote: »

There's nothing crap about it. Government does give out a disproportionately high quota of firsts.

Why are you seemingly representing this as a bad thing?

Show us simpletons your evidence, what courses are you comparing with?

captainspeckle

ALincoln wrote: »

The good thing about this course is primarily the fact that they hand out a 2.1 to any old Johnny or Mary that shows up on more than one occasion, and many's a first has been given too, statistically higher than most other courses. It's because they need people to apply, you see.

i dont really invisage UCC handing out firsts willy nilly!

how many are in an average year of government?

Seloth

Is this booklet thingy I have about it,it says 65.

Seloth

Sorry too double post but I just wanted to bump this up for a question

What classes are there actually in the modules,Is it all the art classes you have a choice of or what

JeffTheJeff

I'm in first year government now. I'd recommend it if you're into politics in any way. Core modules (compulsory) are Management and Organisation, Government and politics of Ireland, Politics of the EU, Introduction to political science and Public Law. There's options to the value of ten credits (One language is ten credits most non-language subjects are 5 credits). There's Spanish, French, Chinese, German etc. and Business Economics, Writing and Communication and Public Health. Think there's a few more so look it up on the website if I didn't help.

Orizio

I did some Government courses through Politics - I also found it marked pretty easy in comparison to my other modules, the lecturing was pretty poorly organised and the same could be said for exams etc in comparison to say, History.

Wasn't hugely impressed with the courses or department really.

invincibleirish

Seloth wrote: »

Sorry too double post but I just wanted to bump this up for a question

What classes are there actually in the modules,Is it all the art classes you have a choice of or what

Some of the modules like Political Corruption & Economics are in with Arts & Commerce folk but the good stuff is Gov class only.

PhatPiggins

Orizio wrote: »

I did some Government courses through Politics - I also found it marked pretty easy in comparison to my other modules, the lecturing was pretty poorly organised and the same could be said for exams etc in comparison to say, History.

Wasn't hugely impressed with the courses or department really.

Breeding ground for future politicians getting easy ride and unearned marks, surely not.

Did a module through them myself, easiest 1H I ever got. Found the whole department a shambles. It's basically a course to give a qualification to people who are going to get positions that aren't based on academic accredation similar to Sports Science for sporto's.

invincibleirish

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Breeding ground for future politicians getting easy ride and unearned marks, surely not.

Did a module through them myself, easiest 1H I ever got. Found the whole department a shambles. It's basically a course to give a qualification to people who are going to get positions that aren't based on academic accredation similar to Sports Science for sporto's.

With pig headed ignorant opinions like that surely you're in the wrong field old chum? i think you'd make an excellent politician.

liberal

ye guys have the option to do work experiece abroad i think, if i was back filling out my cao id research wat courses offer paid work abroad like bis

the science courses would want to get with the times like

liberal

i imagine that the exams office keep on eye on the amount of 1hs being awarded

i also imagine that UCC value their credibility

ALincoln

Well clearly govt isn't so valued that it is preserved and maintained consistently - the title and content of the course is altered every few years if anybody has noticed!

In terms of 1Hs distributed, well, it's difficult to pin down - the amount awarded varies from dept to dept - for example in law, 3 people typically achieve a 1H. In civ eng on the other hand, up to a 1/3 of students may get a 1. So, it's not uniform, and govt is known for its high quantity of high marks.

invincibleirish

ALincoln wrote: »

Well clearly govt isn't so valued that it is preserved and maintained consistently - the title and content of the course is altered every few years if anybody has noticed!

Hmm interesting viewpoint, because this young course (10 years old this year) has had one title change and introduced new modules then it isn't 'valued'?. Perhaps you shoud consider the alternative pov that as the Gov department has expanded, it is inevitable that feedback will be considered and with new lecturers coming on board new modules are going to be created and the course's content is going to be finetuned?

ALincoln wrote: »

In terms of 1Hs distributed, well, it's difficult to pin down - the amount awarded varies from dept to dept - for example in law, 3 people typically achieve a 1H. In civ eng on the other hand, up to a 1/3 of students may get a 1. So, it's not uniform, and govt is known for its high quantity of high marks.

Yes you have pushed this hobby horse idea of yours already in this thread. Unlike the examples mentioned, Gov has traditionally had a small number of students completing the degree, less then 25 this year afaik, the course and its subject matter isn't for everyone and half on average dropout over the 4 years. If you've slogged it out for 3.5 years plus went on work placement i would imagine you would have a certain gra for the course work which surely would naturally lead to good results?.

I believe your inference that Gov hand out 1Hs willy nilly to be a sleight on the department and the college itself, as asked several months ago, can you provide any proof?.

PhatPiggins

invincibleirish wrote: »

With pig headed ignorant opinions like that surely you're in the wrong field old chum? i think you'd make an excellent politician.

Future councilor/ TD wannabe makes snide remarks behind safety of anonymous forum, shock horror.

Its a mickey mouse course and the departent is a mess, these are facts chum. If you're actually on it you'll know that if you're not then you're talking BS.

invincibleirish

Look lad you're dragging this thread downhill with your aggressive tone and throw away comments, have a little bit of cop on with respect to the OPs intentions. Why not share what you know with the rest of the class?... why is it a mickey mouse course? what shambles are you referring to specifically? Whats your experience of the department again?

PhatPiggins

invincibleirish wrote: »

Look lad you're dragging this thread downhill with your aggressive tone and throw away comments, have a little bit of cop on with respect to the OPs intentions. Why not share what you know with the rest of the class?... why is it a mickey mouse course? what shambles are you referring to specifically? Whats your experience of the department again?

Are you on the course?

Because my experience of it and speaking to four friends doing it is that its basically a four year arts course, with a prestigious six month placement of photocpying and making coffee in third year.

Should the OP only hear the sugar coated version, or is he/she better of getting a range off opinions.

invincibleirish

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Because my experience of it and speaking to four friends doing it is that its basically a four year arts course, with a prestigious six month placement of photocpying and making coffee in third year

Gov specializes in several particular areas - Irish politics, political science, public administration and offers modules in specialist areas to supplement this. Yes there is an overlap with several courses but what course doesn't in the social sciences?.

As for the work placement, you downplay the role of placements but this is what employers want after you leave college - work experience - you're not going to solve world hunger on your placement but you will learn and hopefully earn.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Should the OP only hear the sugar coated version, or is he/she better of getting a range off opinions.

Who's sugar coating anything? if you have a specific interest in the areas mentioned above then Gov is an attractive course to do. Anecdotes about easy H1s and weasel words about the course being mickey mouse and the like will be treated with the contempt they deserve.

ALincoln

Easy 1Hs actually make this an attractive course...think of Law students, who have to compete for 3 firsts out of 100 people, and then think of the lesser amount of govt students who compete for a greater amount of firsts. Which would anyone prefer?

As for the change in title and content (are you aware that it's changing again in the next few years?) convey for me not the concept of finetuning so much as a malleability which suggests a lack of will to tie things down.

PhatPiggins

invincibleirish wrote: »

Who's sugar coating anything? if you have a specific interest in the areas mentioned above then Gov is an attractive course to do. Anecdotes about easy H1s and weasel words about the course being mickey mouse and the like will be treated with the contempt they deserve.

I'm sorry but have you explained your role in the course. Are we to assume from your replies that you have a vested interest, lecturer or tutor maybe.

Low CAO points, high dropout rate and disproportionate number of 2.1's/1H's how could we not be sceptical.

Seloth

Ignoring all the critisism I'd love to do this course as it would suit me down to the ground.I'm very interested in politics and I'd like to go into it when I'm older and lots of people have recommened this.Tbh I can see what the people say the lecturers are a bit dull,On the open day it seemed a bit like that alright but that was only one 20 min talk and when talking to the people from the dept later they seemed really friendly and helpful.

I was hopfing though,If I can heh ,but can you continue on after to take a masters or PHD then in politics after this coruse seeing as its related?

invincibleirish

Seloth wrote: »

Ignoring all the critisism I'd love to do this course as it would suit me down to the ground.I'm very interested in politics and I'd like to go into it when I'm older and lots of people have recommened this.Tbh I can see what the people say the lecturers are a bit dull,On the open day it seemed a bit like that alright but that was only one 20 min talk and when talking to the people from the dept later they seemed really friendly and helpful.

Some modules can be dull tbh, but the beauty of it really is developing and then expanding upon your own areas of interest over the 4 years. The broad scope of the modules means that even in some of the dull subjects (for me Economics & the Mgmt theory modules were a bit of chore)they still will aid you in what you are learning in the other modules.

1st Year is the dullest year tbh, the modules are general introductions into the areas i mentioned a page back. You'll know after a few months whether you have a taste for the degree or not.

Seloth wrote: »

I was hopfing though,If I can heh ,but can you continue on after to take a masters or PHD then in politics after this coruse seeing as its related?

Yes you can.

ALincoln wrote: »

Easy 1Hs actually make this an attractive course...think of Law students, who have to compete for 3 firsts out of 100 people, and then think of the lesser amount of govt students who compete for a greater amount of firsts. Which would anyone prefer?

You're comparisons are strawman arguments, i do not know nor are particularly concerned about what grading curves are used in Law or what relevance it has to do with this discussion.

Again i stress that with Gov you do 3.5 years plus a work placement, i would consider if you are keen enough to do the work required then your final result will be a fair reflection on your academic performance. Do you have any thing to suggest that the Gov department heads, external examiners and the examinations office are colluding to give undeserved H1s?.

ALincoln wrote: »

convey for me not the concept of finetuning so much as a malleability which suggests a lack of will to tie things down.

I suppose ultimately its a matter of personal interpretation but i think the course has prospered due to finetuning and i expect there to be more improvements from ongoing feedback from students & employers. Government isn't Law or Biochem with set modules, there is great scope for pursuing niche interests with some of the more obscure subjects, long may it continue imo.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I'm sorry but have you explained your role in the course. Are we to assume from your replies that you have a vested interest, lecturer or tutor maybe.

No i am not a member of staff from the Department.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Low CAO points, high dropout rate and disproportionate number of 2.1's/1H's how could we not be sceptical.

Glib points tbh, When you get to college you will realise CAO points mean very little once you get in the door. Equally in third level you will find many courses have high drop out rates, finally your perception of a 'disproportionate' of 2.1's/1Hs being awarded suggests to me you know something we don't know or you're making it up as you go along. Care to tell me how many 1Hs should be awarded as you seem to be in the know on these things?

ALincoln

Of course I'm not trying to suggest that they collude to award underserved 1Hs - I'm saying that the standard for attaining one is significantly lower than is the case in other departments. Please don't try to disingenuously mischaracterise my statements like that.

In terms of your argument that people in government stay the course for 4 years, therefore they get more 1Hs. Er - no?! If that logic held true, everyone in med would get a first, because they go through 5 years of education. Firsts are predicated on intelligence, not perseverance.

invincibleirish

ALincoln wrote: »

In terms of your argument that people in government stay the course for 4 years, therefore they get more 1Hs. Er - no?! If that logic held true, everyone in med would get a first, because they go through 5 years of education. Firsts are predicated on intelligence, not perseverance.

Tbh we're dealing in semantics here. My logic is simple, work hard and do well. I am not sure what the ideal rate of H1s should be for a course like Government, perhaps compare it to other similar courses in other Universities, have you done this?.

You cite unproduced data about the course to advance a notion that a course with small numbers compared to a med or a law or any other of the heavy hitters, is the inference of this being the H1 or 2.1 isn't important?.

The content of the course is obscure, Exploring the ins and outs of Public Administration & Irish politics to name but two which aren't exactly glamourous like the prestige and ching-ching appeal of other courses. As a consequence anyone who stays the course can't help i'd feel but to have a learned a decent bit. And if they haven't done that then perhaps they've done the student politico thing and landed a cushy number somewhere, either way everyone's happy.

Seloth

I know its an unawnserable question but can anyone guess what the the points might be this year.I got a bit of a shock when I saw they went up past 400 a few years back :eek:

JohnMearsheimer

OP

I would give serious consideration to doing this course. I did it a while back when it was GPP and if I could have my time over again I would probably do something else that was more vocational but thats just me. If you do this course you will more than likely have to do something else after it which may require an extra year or two of study.

The quality of the modules and lecturers varies. Some modules were quite interesting but others.....lets just say sitting in on a lecture on Swiss local government at 5pm on a Wednesday evening in November isn't much fun! I also found the Government dept offered us a lot of filler modules in things like accounting and public health just to give us something to do. You do get a lot of variety in terms of modules but in my opinion you do a bit of everything and not enough of one particular thing. With lecturers, one or two were tough but with others you could get away with handing up any old rubbish. If you put in any kind of work at all you will get a 2.1 but at the same time I don't think the department hands out 1sts at the drop of a hat either. In my year of 48 I only know of 1 person that got a 1st overall.

I think the work placements need a lot more work too. I found the work placement co-ordinator to be very unfriendly, difficult to deal with and uninterested. The quality of placements varies a lot. Some people in my year didn't really do a whole lot while on their placement while others got to do some pretty interesting things. There was no uniformity in the quality of things people got to do at all. I think there should be more of a shift to placements with private sector companies. Yes, I do realize that public sector placements for Government students is obvious and makes sense but when you finish your degree a public sector organisation cannot simply just give you a job because of public sector recruitment practices (plus there is an embargo on public sector recruitment at the moment). Just because you study politics doesn't mean you have to work in the public sector. Some of my friends from UCC outside Government that did work placements with private sector companies got offered jobs when they finished their degrees. I dont think anyone in my year got offered a job as a result of their placement.

I'm not telling you not to do ths course, just give it serious thought.

Seloth

Hey thanks for the honest post.I actually plan if accepted to carry on and do a Masters or PHD in Politics if I can and if still in hopes do law postgrad,be it in UCC((Hopfully))or else where.I know it will take me a hell of a long time to do but but after doing all that I feel like I'd be educated enough to go into politics((Yeah I know you dont need any requirments but if I'm going to do sometihng I want to do it good and right)).Oh as for the work placement I'm actually already sorted for that((I have one of those mothers who has connections everywhere ))

The only thing that has really caught my eye so far was Law and Poltics in Trinity but I dought I'd get the points.

May I ask as to what you are doing now?I know my half sisters friend who recently finished this is working in an Irish embasy somewhere in Africa((I forget which place:o,but shes ment to love it out there)).

JohnMearsheimer

Well done on organizing your own placement! If you don't the Govt dept throw you into a weird lottery system whereby you might get a work placement that you never even applied for. Makes no sense at all

If you have any spare have time I'd suggest you get on to some of your local TDs/Senators and see if you can get some volunteer work. You will get to see what they do on a day to day basis. Mention that you are interested in studying politics and I'm sure they will be happy to help you out. Also, this type of work may help open doors for you in the future. Its something I'm only finding out now....

After GPP I spent 2 years in the UK doing a masters in international relations. Finished in September and I'm looking for a job at the moment. I've interviews for 2 graduate schemes this month but if I don't get them I think my options are to emigrate, do another masters or try and start a PhD. Doing some voluntary work with a TD at the moment. But don't let that put you off, my 3 best friends from GPP are a trainee solicitor, a Forfas economist and an EO in Foreign Affairs. Just finished college at a bad time.

Also, if you want to work for Foreign Affairs you don't need a politics/ir degree. For clerical officer you need a leaving, executive officer you need at least 2 years of college. If you get on a panel for these grades it all comes down to the luck of the draw. You could get EO in Foreign Affairs or you could get EO in Social Welfare in Louth. It all comes down to where the civil service needs people and your place in the queue. For Third Secretary (trainee diplomat) you need a degree. The degree can be in anything though, you could have a civil engineering degree and still end up a diplomat.

MariaBlaah

the blurb on this degree made it sound as if it would be suitable for work with NGOs.. is this true? my No1 is international development in UCC and even though the points are really low im freaking a small bit just in case they go up a lot..! i would like my second choice to be in UCC as i love the college and iv my heart set on going there!

any reply that could help would be very mush appreciated

The Duke of Moral Hazard

MariaBlaah wrote: »

the blurb on this degree made it sound as if it would be suitable for work with NGOs.. is this true? my No1 is international development in UCC and even though the points are really low im freaking a small bit just in case they go up a lot..! i would like my second choice to be in UCC as i love the college and iv my heart set on going there!

any reply that could help would be very mush appreciated

You should definitely put this down as your No.2 if you want to get into NGO work. I'd go so far as to say that Bsc Government may serve you better, in that you will have more of a variety of modules and disciplines: Economics, Political Science, Heath Services, Law, Public Management, Planning etc.

Int Dev is a good course and the lecturers are very approachable however the module tend to be similar and repetitious.

MariaBlaah

The Duke of Moral Hazard wrote: »

You should definitely put this down as your No.2 if you want to get into NGO work. I'd go so far as to say that Bsc Government may serve you better, in that you will have more of a variety of modules and disciplines: Economics, Political Science, Heath Services, Law, Public Management, Planning etc.

Int Dev is a good course and the lecturers are very approachable however the module tend to be similar and repetitious.

what do you mean now by similar and repetitious?

MariaBlaah

The Duke of Moral Hazard wrote: »

You should definitely put this down as your No.2 if you want to get into NGO work. I'd go so far as to say that Bsc Government may serve you better, in that you will have more of a variety of modules and disciplines: Economics, Political Science, Heath Services, Law, Public Management, Planning etc.

Int Dev is a good course and the lecturers are very approachable however the module tend to be similar and repetitious.

actually, nevermind! its too late to change now anyways!
i did put government as my 2nd choice and if i have any problems i have contacts in south africa within a lot of the NGOs that are based there, thanks for your reply!

Bride2012

The posters who said that Government hand out lots of h1s are mistaken, 'the average is 2% of the class each year' quote from a senior lecturer.

Hard and consistant work like in most courses should see you with a 2.1 but I know lots who got 2.2 and lower.

If you source your own work experience carefully then it can be great.

The staff are really helpful, small courses are great like that.

b743k

I second the knowing students of Government who got a 2.2 or lower.

Get your facts straight, one 1H most years!