Aer Lingus Still Haemorrhaging Money

senordingdong

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0827/aerlingus.html


Somehow they're losses have tripled since this time last year, to nearly €74 million. How the hell can this airline still be operating? How can any company lose that much money and not call it a day?

More to the point, how the hell can they still be charging the fares that they do?
I just did a quick check and their fares were nearly three times as much a Ryanair were offering. And Aer Lingus claim to be a low fares airline!

With 25% of the airline in govt. hands, could this lead to an airline 'bailing' package? I mean they refuse to sell to Ryanair, even though Ryanair seem to be one of the few airlines left in europe making money, and they already own 25% of Aer Lingus.

Chips Lovell

senordingdong wrote: »

Somehow they're losses have tripled since this time last year, to nearly €74 million. How the hell can this airline still be operating?

Massive cash reserves. They still have €440m in the bank.

senordingdong wrote: »

even though Ryanair seem to be one of the few airlines left in europe making money.

Ryanair made a loss last year too.

Dotsie~tmp

That cash pile wont last long (nearly halved in months?) and it was for future fleet purchases which seem finished now. They are in real trouble. I think that first Ryanair offer looks sweet now.

General Zod

Ryanair taking over Aer Lingus would be an absolute disaster. Get ready to have to pay to get through the door of dublin airport.

senordingdong

el tonto wrote: »

Ryanair made a loss last year too.

Yes, you're right.
But in fairness, that was a result of them absorbing the fuel surcharge much to passengers delight.
Unlike other airlines that turfed it on the customer, took their sweet time lifting it, and still made a loss.

senordingdong

General Zod wrote: »

Ryanair taking over Aer Lingus would be an absolute disaster. Get ready to have to pay to get through the door of dublin airport.

I'd happily pay to get through the door of Dublin Airport if I was guaranteed the service that Ryanair offer.

Long Onion

The problem with Aer Lingus is that they have fallen in between two stools. For far too long, they held on to the romantic notion that they were a higher class outfit than Ryanair the reality is that they were never high-class enough to cut a niche at the top end.

Now they are discovering that there is no room in the market for middle-class airlines and they are caught in the middle. The costs they are carrying are too bloated to allow them compete as a true low cost carrier it's a case of reform or die.

Personally, I would welcome a Ryanair takeover but i think the terms Mr O'Leary would now offer would make a few people have to eat large slices of humble pie.

Delta Kilo

senordingdong wrote: »

More to the point, how the hell can they still be charging the fares that they do?
I just did a quick check and their fares were nearly three times as much a Ryanair were offering. And Aer Lingus claim to be a low fares airline!

Because you don't get wet if you travel with them and you wont have to spend a further hour on a train to get to your destination. A lot of it is probably snobbery. Wealthy folk not wanting to travel with the "riff-raff" on Ryanair etc. Some people probably don't even compare the prices when choosing.

senordingdong wrote: »

With 25% of the airline in govt. hands, could this lead to an airline 'bailing' package? I mean they refuse to sell to Ryanair, even though Ryanair seem to be one of the few airlines left in europe making money, and they already own 25% of Aer Lingus.

No, the government, under EU law brought in through the lobbying of Ryanair amongst others, are not allowed to intervene and bail out the flag carrier. To do so is illegal under competition law. When Ryanair started operating, it was clear that the 2 airlines were not playing on the same field, with the government propping up Aer Lingus the whole time. So Ryanair went to Europe claiming that it was anti-competitive and won, thus new laws were introduced.

Like him or loathe him, Michael O Leary is a genius when it comes to business. Yes he will step on peoples toes in the process but that is what has Ryanair in the position they are in today. Ryanair are in a much stronger position than Aer Lingus. Without those cash reserves, Aer Lingus would be gone.

Big_G

I refuse to fly ryanair since they screwed me on luggage on a flight back from Milan. It wasn't the fact that they got me with their legal mumbo-jumbo, it was their attitude. Basically fuck you. And the more we can fuck you , the happier O'Leary gets.

I will fly Aer Lingus wherever possible. They just offer a better service, their airports are proper airports, close to where you want to be, their staff are (generally) friendlier probably because they are not getting the shaft from O'Leary like the Ryanair staff.

Plus you get more room on Aer Lingus, and I'm an ample gent. It's not that much more expensive when you factor in hidden taxes/charges/baggage than Ryanair. I for one am willing to pay the extra. I would love if everyone did the same to keep Aer Lingus in business. If O'Leary gets a monopoly, we're all screwed.

chalkitdown

Big_G wrote: »

I refuse to fly ryanair since they screwed me on luggage on a flight back from Milan. It wasn't the fact that they got me with their legal mumbo-jumbo, it was their attitude. Basically fuck you. And the more we can fuck you , the happier O'Leary gets.

I will fly Aer Lingus wherever possible. They just offer a better service, their airports are proper airports, close to where you want to be, their staff are (generally) friendlier probably because they are not getting the shaft from O'Leary like the Ryanair staff.

Plus you get more room on Aer Lingus, and I'm an ample gent. It's not that much more expensive when you factor in hidden taxes/charges/baggage than Ryanair. I for one am willing to pay the extra. I would love if everyone did the same to keep Aer Lingus in business. If O'Leary gets a monopoly, we're all screwed.

But won't we be more screwed if Aer Lingus go to the wall?

With the benefit of hindsight, doesn't O'Learys first offer now look very good? I personally notice little difference in service levels between the two.

Mushy

Big_G wrote: »

Plus you get more room on Aer Lingus, and I'm an ample gent. It's not that much more expensive when you factor in hidden taxes/charges/baggage than Ryanair. I for one am willing to pay the extra. I would love if everyone did the same to keep Aer Lingus in business. If O'Leary gets a monopoly, we're all screwed.

I love when people say this as a con to Ryanair, cos the same charges apply for all low-fare airlines that run a Europe-wide service. Recently Aer Lingus increased their baggage cabin allowance, was some ho-ha bout it being so great...they only increased it to what all other airlines had it at for years. Also, ya never hear of people complimenting Ryanair, even though I've had ZERO trouble with them. If you pay the fare, it means you agree to the rules of the company, same as any other product anywhere. People then break these rules, then complain about them. Stay within the rules, and you get a cheap fare the destination of your choice. win-win situation.

In saying all that, I still wouldn't want to see a monopoly, so pretty much the only reason I don't want to see Aer Lingus in O' Leary's hands.

murfie

After being rejected with the original offer I would imagine O'Leary is going to wait now till Aer Lingus is on its knees, and then offer a much reduced deal and they will be forced to go with it as its either that or fold.

I for one would love to see O'Leary take over, cheaper transatlantic flights! I don't need all the added service, just a flight.

One thing that is confusing me is why the Aer Lingus share price rose with this announcement? Any explain this to me?
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AERL.L

Jim236

The banks are already refusing to give them cash until they enforce a new €130m cost-cutting plan.

So unless they do something quick, there'll be a repeat of this:

humanji

senordingdong wrote: »

More to the point, how the hell can they still be charging the fares that they do?
I just did a quick check and their fares were nearly three times as much a Ryanair were offering. And Aer Lingus claim to be a low fares airline!

I've a fair few flights to be getting over the rest of the year and on every single one of them, Ryanair has been more expensive. It all depends on what flights you're getting.

senordingdong wrote: »

I'd happily pay to get through the door of Dublin Airport if I was guaranteed the service that Ryanair offer.

Being treated like sh*t?

Personally, I'd hate for O'Leary to take over Aer Lingus, as I wouldn't trust him not to jack up the prices. Plus, I can't imagine it'd be in his best interests now anyway. He'd spend a fortune buying it and then suffer huge amounts of bad publicity as he shreds it to try and make it profitable. And if he fails to make it profitable, he's stuck with a lemon that's still losing money (along with Ryanair).

harsea8

I can't believe that so many people are in favour of giving one man so much control over when and where the people of Ireland fly, not to mention a large influence over the cost of flying in and out of this country. Now I can't say I've had any bad experiences with Ryanair, but we deserve more of a choice than we have at the moment, not less

P.S. Can anyone actually imagine what it would be like to fly to the US with ryanair....5+ hrs of that f*cking chirpy music and adverts for bus/train tickets, what a nightmare

zuutroy

lol at people expecting to be able to get to Barcelona for 20 euro. Those days were the exception not the norm. It just doesn't make sense on any level. Aer Lingus' prices even as 'high' as they are, are far too low to be sustainable.

senordingdong

What mkes people think that Aer Lingus is providing competition?
They're not competing in any way shape or form.
And are flopping because of it.

O'Leary hit the nail on the head when he said FF economics have long ago destroyed competetivness in Ireland.

Jim236

senordingdong wrote: »

What mkes people think that Aer Lingus is providing competition?
They're not competing in any way shape or form.
And are flopping because of it.

In terms of passenger numbers and marketshare in Dublin, they're clearly capable of competing with Ryanair. Aer Lingus' problem is it's cost base which is too high, once it manages to bring that down, maybe not as low as Ryanair's, but much lower than it is atm, they'll be in a position to turn a profit with the kind of fares on offer atm.

senordingdong

Well if there passenger numbers are ok, then there rates can't be a problem.

Jim236

senordingdong wrote: »

Well if there passenger numbers are ok, then there rates can't be a problem.

What?

Terodil

Aer Lingus is the only airline that offers flights at the time I need them.

I don't want to fly from Frankfurt to Dublin on Saturday morning and have to fly back on Sunday morning. Or some other completely useless times. Aer Lingus on Friday night and Sunday afternoon is worth the higher price, plus I don't feel quite as abused by AerLingus as by Ryanair.

I mean come on, this stupid blaring 'you're on time AGAIN', 'don't you want to finally buy a completely overpriced sandwich? well? DON'T YOU????', paying for being able to pay for the tickets, etc etc etc :rolleyes:

markpb

Terodil wrote: »

Aer Lingus is the only airline that offers flights at the time I need them. I don't want to fly from Frankfurt to Dublin on Saturday morning and have to fly back on Sunday morning. Or some other completely useless times.

Apparently not enough people think like you or Aer Lingus might not be as badly off as they are

Every time Aer Lingus try to cut costs, the union say no. The best they could get was to make all the staff in one department redundant (at huge cost) and hire them back on slightly more favourable contracts (to the company). If that's the best they can manage, I can't see the company surviving.

Jim236

markpb wrote: »

Apparently not enough people think like you or Aer Lingus might not be as badly off as they are

Actually their passenger numbers grew, so their losses are nothing to do with falling passenger no's.

FlutterinBantam

Jim236 wrote: »

Actually their passenger numbers grew, so their losses are nothing to do with falling passenger no's.

Problem is cost base.I'll say it again cost base (as another poster has already said as well)


That means the cost to the airline to run it's operations.

Yield is what revenue the airline gets from its operations.

Based on Aer Lingus's pricing, the yield is way too low to cover the costs and as the market won't tolerate higher prices,only alternative is to reduce costs.

Needs to reduce pay, eliminate certain work practices, increase flexibility of staff, to even have a hope of matching FR.

Turbulence expected....fasten seat belts.. this time it's serious.

haemfire

omg

Jim236

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Problem is cost base.I'll say it again cost base (as another poster has already said as well)


That means the cost to the airline to run it's operations.

Yield is what revenue the airline gets from its operations.

Based on Aer Lingus's pricing, the yield is way too low to cover the costs and as the market won't tolerate higher prices,only alternative is to reduce costs.

Needs to reduce pay, eliminate certain work practices, increase flexibility of staff, to even have a hope of matching FR.

Turbulence expected....fasten seat belts.. this time it's serious.

Definitely yeah, but I was just making the point their losses aren't because of falling passenger numbers, they're actually competing well with Ryanair and easyJet for passengers, their problem is they can't sustain their low fares because of their cost base which is whats causing their losses.

FlutterinBantam

Jim236 wrote: »

Definitely yeah, but I was just making the point their losses aren't because of falling passenger numbers, they're actually competing well with Ryanair and easyJet for passengers, their problem is they can't sustain their low fares because of their cost base which is whats causing their losses.

Indeed of course you are right,however based on current costs and yields even if they filled every aeroplane every time on every flight they would still struggle unless they bring down the cost base.

I note in recent interviews that the financial guy did not shy away from the prospect of ind. unrest.

So it must be serious.

rossie1977

Terodil wrote: »

plus I don't feel quite as abused by AerLingus as by Ryanair.

I mean come on, this stupid blaring 'you're on time AGAIN', 'don't you want to finally buy a completely overpriced sandwich? well? DON'T YOU????', paying for being able to pay for the tickets, etc etc etc :rolleyes:

you consider the highlighted things abuse i see plenty of overpriced sandwiches in centra, spar and other places of that type, bring your own problem solved

Laphroaig52

rossie1977 wrote: »

you consider the highlighted things abuse i see plenty of overpriced sandwiches in centra, spar and other places of that type, bring your own problem solved

I see plenty of bloody over priced sandwiches on Aer Lingus.

And I'd happily listen to Aer Lingus playing an 'on time' fanfare...if they were on time that is.

civildefence

I fly regularly and I avoid FR where possible, I have had so many bad experiences with them. EI may charge a bit more, but 'you get what you pay' for as the man says.

EI will not go under as it will always be rescued by the state.

FlutterinBantam

civildefence wrote: »

I fly regularly and I avoid FR where possible, I have had so many bad experiences with them. EI may charge a bit more, but 'you get what you pay' for as the man says.

EI will not go under as it will always be rescued by the state.

'Fraid not poster. EI is now a pvt. company and even if the state wanted to and had the will and money to rescue,which it hasn't, EU regs prohibit such action.

I can see some alliance with another major airline down the line, there will have to be for survival, otherwise a metamorphosis into a European feeder carrier with the Transatlantic arm abandoned.

EI in it's current set up can never compete profitably with the genuine low cost carriers.

All of which is a shame as I always found them quite good, but that's the way the industry is headed and whether we like it or not that is where the customer is going.

mike65

Its costs about 8 times as much per seat to run Aer Lingus than EasyJet. Until that gap closes its in trouble.

FoldedShirt

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the people eagerly awaiting a Ryanair monopoly. Do you think you'll still be paying €1 for your flights when Ryanair control 85% of the Irish market?

Of course you won't. All Aer Lingus assets will be sold (covering the takeover bill), routes will be closed and prices will rise. Supply and demand. It's not like we have much of a choice being on an island. And if Easyjet or someone else tries to enter the Irish market, Ryanair will offer free flights for a month and drive them out. Then prices will rise again. Ask the people of Knock.

We'll still have connectivity to hubs at Paris and Frankfurt (with Air France and Lufthansa), but if you think Ryanair will fly to Heathrow or Amsterdam you will be sorely disappointed.

And €5 to New York? Give me a break. Transatlantic ops are the reason Aer Lingus is losing money. Ryanair has no intention of joining that club.

Long Onion

FoldedShirt wrote: »

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the people eagerly awaiting a Ryanair monopoly. Do you think you'll still be paying €1 for your flights when Ryanair control 85% of the Irish market?

Of course you won't. All Aer Lingus assets will be sold (covering the takeover bill), routes will be closed and prices will rise. Supply and demand. It's not like we have much of a choice being on an island. And if Easyjet or someone else tries to enter the Irish market, Ryanair will offer free flights for a month and drive them out. Then prices will rise again. Ask the people of Knock.

We'll still have connectivity to hubs at Paris and Frankfurt (with Air France and Lufthansa), but if you think Ryanair will fly to Heathrow or Amsterdam you will be sorely disappointed.

And €5 to New York? Give me a break. Transatlantic ops are the reason Aer Lingus is losing money. Ryanair has no intention of joining that club.

Thanks for that Mr Mannion,

What are you up to these days - SIPTU?:rolleyes:

ronano

I've got to agree with him why wouldn't ryanair make the most of a monopoly? no competition is a bad thing! and i use ryanair allot and don't hold anything against them otherwise

rossie1977

ronano wrote: »

I've got to agree with him why wouldn't ryanair make the most of a monopoly? no competition is a bad thing! and i use ryanair allot and don't hold anything against them otherwise

i think if ryanair did buy AI, then you would see easyjet enter the market, at the moment with both AI and ryanair competing on many of the same routes its a bit pointless having a third major airline flying from dublin-london, dublin-berlin, dublin-madrid, dublin-rome, dublin-algarve etc

FoldedShirt

rossie1977 wrote: »

i think if ryanair did buy AI, then you would see easyjet enter the market, at the moment with both AI and ryanair competing on many of the same routes its a bit pointless having a third major airline flying from dublin-london, dublin-berlin, dublin-madrid, dublin-rome, dublin-algarve etc

Easyjet entered the market before (not in Dublin, but in other airports). Ryanair dumped capacity and gave away seats until Easyjet were gone. They then cut back the routes. Ryanair don't have a monopoly in many places, but where they do they fight to the death to keep it (and always win). They're not a charity, so don't expect €1 flights when they're the only option (which they will be on the vast majority of routes).

I'm not questioning the rights or wrongs of what happened (it's just business). I'm pointing out that it did happen and how thinking that I wouldn't happen again is incredibly naive.

gurramok

I've been looking at flights lately where both airlines fly to same airport. Ryanair have free online check-in on a fair few flights, Aer Lingus don't.(correct me if i'm wrong)

If you fly by Ryanair without the free online check-in, the cost of the flight skyrockets to near but still below Aer Lingus.

Now, why don't Aer Lingus introduce free online check-in?

Long Onion

gurramok wrote: »

Now, why don't Aer Lingus introduce free online check-in?

Unions: "'cause dem computers, dey tuk ar jawbs ..."

Folded Shirt, by the tone of your earlier post it would clearly seem that you are indeed questioning the 'equity' of Ryanairs actions. Competition law is there for a reason, if you have proof that Ryanair intend to buy Aerlingus just so they can increase our airfares can you show it to me?

FoldedShirt

Long Onion wrote: »

Folded Shirt, by the tone of your earlier post it would clearly seem that you are indeed questioning the 'equity' of Ryanairs actions. Competition law is there for a reason, if you have proof that Ryanair intend to buy Aerlingus just so they can increase our airfares can you show it to me?

The last time Ryanair bought one of their competitors at a major base.


Not questioning the 'equity' of Ryanair's actions. The motivations are very clear. Create a monopoly, control air travel from an island nation where there are no viable surface alternatives, gain influence over the Government and airport operators because they will account for 85% of the traffic. That's why I'd much rather Aer Lingus stay independent, or be bought by an airline that isn't Ryanair.

Long Onion

FoldedShirt wrote: »

The last time Ryanair bought one of their competitors at a major base.


Not questioning the 'equity' of Ryanair's actions. The motivations are very clear. Create a monopoly, control air travel from an island nation where there are no viable surface alternatives, gain influence over the Government and airport operators because they will account for 85% of the traffic. That's why I'd much rather Aer Lingus stay independent, or be bought by an airline that isn't Ryanair.

To be honest, I think you're a little heavy on the conspiracy theory with the "gain influence over the government" stuff. I think they would like the cash reserves and the Heathrow slots. Ireland is a very small market for Ryanair in the context of their overall operations. I think Anti-trust laws will sort out most of your issues. Look at the recent Intel and Microsoft cases.

Beta2

FoldedShirt wrote: »

Ryanair don't have a monopoly in many places, but where they do they fight to the death to keep it (and always win). They're not a charity, so don't expect €1 flights when they're the only option (which they will be on the vast majority of routes)..

I fly DUB-EMA about twice a month sometimes more, there is no competition.

When I'm flexible with my dates I frequently pay €2 return incl. all taxes charges and credit card charges.

The typical fare is €40 - €60 with about 1 weeks notice.

The most I ever paid was €120 when I have about 36 hours notice.

As part of my job I fly a lot, 100+ segments a year. 80% with Ryanair, 10% with delta and 10% with aerlingus and one or two others. I've had far more delays with aerlings than ryanair despite flying with ryanair 8 times more often than aerlingus.

That said flying aerlingus is typically less stressful.

I hope ryanair take over aerlingus, might get cheaper heathrow and US flights if they do.

FoldedShirt

Long Onion wrote: »

To be honest, I think you're a little heavy on the conspiracy theory with the "gain influence over the government" stuff. I think they would like the cash reserves and the Heathrow slots. Ireland is a very small market for Ryanair in the context of their overall operations. I think Anti-trust laws will sort out most of your issues. Look at the recent Intel and Microsoft cases.

It's the airport operators that I'm more concerned about (the government is really just an extension of this, in so far as the government formulates broader aviation policy). Dublin Airport is a shambles, yet Ryanair have opposed every attempt to improve the airport infrastructure. If Ryanair control 85% of the traffic in Dublin Airport, it will be very difficult to justify a runway extension or new runway to allow direct flights to the Far East. That means exporters suffer as well as the travelling public.

As far as cash reserves and slots go, I think you're right. The cash reserves will pay for the takeover, the slots can be leased out providing free money. The airline will continue to fly for a year or two (like Buzz) and then be shut down because of "poor performance". Capacity into Ireland will fall so fares will rise. Everyone loses except Ryanair shareholders.

Long Onion

I think you should buy a heap of Ryanair shares now, that way the increase in fares will have little effect on your overall net wealth:D

Big_G

Mushy wrote: »

I love when people say this as a con to Ryanair, cos the same charges apply for all low-fare airlines that run a Europe-wide service. Recently Aer Lingus increased their baggage cabin allowance, was some ho-ha bout it being so great...they only increased it to what all other airlines had it at for years. Also, ya never hear of people complimenting Ryanair, even though I've had ZERO trouble with them. If you pay the fare, it means you agree to the rules of the company, same as any other product anywhere. People then break these rules, then complain about them. Stay within the rules, and you get a cheap fare the destination of your choice. win-win situation.

In saying all that, I still wouldn't want to see a monopoly, so pretty much the only reason I don't want to see Aer Lingus in O' Leary's hands.

I'm sorry but its about convenience. And Ryanair don't exactly make it easy for you to stay within their 'rules'. I'm glad you haven't had any problems with Ryanair, but I have had problems several times when not adhering to their 'rules'. Such as the time I got a bus back from Paris to Beauvais to find out it was the wrong bus by 10 minutes and Ryanair wouldn't let me board the flight, despite it still sitting on the tarmac at the terminal. Thanks a bunch. Not to mention the flight from Milan, as I talked about previously.

No such problems with Aer Lingus. Because they are just a better service.

FoldedShirt

Long Onion wrote: »

I think you should buy a heap of Ryanair shares now, that way the increase in fares will have little effect on your overall net wealth:D

Excellent idea! It's win-win then

Jim236

gurramok wrote: »

I've been looking at flights lately where both airlines fly to same airport. Ryanair have free online check-in on a fair few flights, Aer Lingus don't.(correct me if i'm wrong)

If you fly by Ryanair without the free online check-in, the cost of the flight skyrockets to near but still below Aer Lingus.

Ryanair charge €5 per person for online check-in. The only time you don't pay for it is when they have special offers, all other times you have to pay for it. Whereas Aer Lingus charge between €12 and €18 depending on where you're going, but thats for everyone, so if you're travelling in a group you're actually saving a lot of money compared to Ryanair.

gurramok wrote: »

Now, why don't Aer Lingus introduce free online check-in?

Aer Arann don't charge for check-in but people still chose Ryanair over them on the Dublin-Cork route. Aer Arann were flying up to 10 times daily at one point I think before Ryanair came on the route, now they're down to twice daily, and Ryanair are flying 5 times daily on 189-seater jets.

All people care about are the fares, bring them down and you'll fill seats, they don't care about little extras like online check-in.

civildefence

Does anyone agree that in general EI service is far better than FR and therefore is worth the money?

FlutterinBantam

yes yes and yes again but that is no good to them.


THEIR COSTS ARE TOO HIGH!!!!

If they can do that for less cost they are away on a hack.

There is the problem.

civildefence

God be with the days.... used to be so proud that this was our national airline

senordingdong

Big_G wrote: »

I'm sorry but its about convenience. And Ryanair don't exactly make it easy for you to stay within their 'rules'. I'm glad you haven't had any problems with Ryanair, but I have had problems several times when not adhering to their 'rules'. Such as the time I got a bus back from Paris to Beauvais to find out it was the wrong bus by 10 minutes and Ryanair wouldn't let me board the flight, despite it still sitting on the tarmac at the terminal. Thanks a bunch. Not to mention the flight from Milan, as I talked about previously.

No such problems with Aer Lingus. Because they are just a better service.

Hang on a moment, lets looks at this for a second, you missed check in.
You were late, whether by on minute or one hour, you were late, that's hardly Ryanairs fault.
Also, you spoke of being caught on baggage charges in Milan, again, this sounds like it was your fault. No offence like.

As for service provided...I'm going to say that this is a personal matter.
I've had great experiences with Ryanair, and bad expreiences with Aer Lingus.

Anyway, I would be happy to see Aer Lingus absorbed into Ryanair becasue I think it's sham of an organisation, like the FAI.