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New Restricted List SI 337 is now available

  • 26-08-2009 4:33pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1


    Guys,

    The new Restricted list was published today (SI 337 2009 Firearms), and is available on the SSAI website and the NASRPC website.

    As we understood it, the Commissioners guidelines should be available shortly.


    Regards

    SSAI PRO


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    So centerfire moderators are no longer restricted. Excellent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    And "designed for" has become "designed for use in connection with".... but the wording is still quite vague. Better, but still not right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    And the list of pistols isn't in the SI, instead it's any .22lr pistol with a magazine of 5 rounds and a barrel longer than 10cm.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    You need to read it in conjunction with the original SI (21/2008) to make sense of it.

    Available here

    Apparently the list will be in the guidelines.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    rrpc wrote: »
    Apparently the list will be in the guidelines.

    Which are due out.... the ninth of never :rolleyes:

    Great news on centrefire mods though :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭Scalachi


    According to the DOJ, The guidelines are approved and should be published on the Garda Website Shortly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    A modicum of sanity on centrefire moderators, finally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Sparks wrote: »
    And "designed for" has become "designed for use in connection with".... but the wording is still quite vague. Better, but still not right.
    That's the wording used in the original SI. Unless there's a list that the Superintendents are working from, then I foresee a lot of debate between .22 pistol licence applicants and Supers as to what constitutes "designed for use in connection with..." Hopefully the Commissioner's guidelines will clarify this, otherwise we are back into a lottery where the decision will depend on which Garda District you live in. The further restriction of 5 rounds in the magazine would seem to scupper the Buckmarks, Trailsides, eXesses used currently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    fat-tony wrote: »
    That's the wording used in the original SI. Unless there's a list that the Superintendents are working from, then I foresee a lot of debate between .22 pistol licence applicants and Supers as to what constitutes "designed for use in connection with..." Hopefully the Commissioner's guidelines will clarify this, otherwise we are back into a lottery where the decision will depend on which Garda District you live in. The further restriction of 5 rounds in the magazine would seem to scupper the Buckmarks, Trailsides, eXesses used currently.

    To say nothing of revolvers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I don't think the magazine size restriction scuppers anything actually.
    Got a semi-auto with a 10-round mag and don't want it restricted? Crimp the magazine. Revolver with 6-shot or more capacity? Plug the spare slots with dowels. If it's good enough for a shotgun...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Interesting point regarding dowels etc., but I wouldn't suggest such a procedure without an ok from the DoJ/Gardaí - maybe the guidelines will clarify?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Unknown f-t, but I'd love to hear what possible reasoning there could be in saying that you can have a .76 calibre pump-action loaded with buckshot (so thats one entire clip of 9mm ammunition fired at once whenever you pull the trigger) and sticking a dowel in the magazine is good enough to keep it off restricted status; but if you have a browning buckmark .22lr pistol with a crimped magazine, you couldn't be trusted to not uncrimp it!

    I mean, there's a point past which the Gardai aren't so much looking out for public safety as they would be taking the mickey...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭gunhappy_ie


    Sparks wrote: »
    So centerfire moderators are no longer restricted. Excellent.


    Ive had 2 semi auto centerfires with permission for suppressors for over a year now... !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭ayapatrick


    Sparks wrote: »
    So centerfire moderators are no longer restricted. Excellent.

    maybe im not reading it correctly but where does it say this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    ayapatrick wrote: »
    maybe im not reading it correctly but where does it say this?

    Where it amends article 4.2.d to remove the word "rimfire" from the reference to unrestricted moderators, thereby making all moderators designed for use with long rifled firearms unrestricted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    ayapatrick wrote: »
    maybe im not reading it correctly but where does it say this?
    (a) in subparagraph (d) by the deletion of the word “rim-fire”,

    Where paragraph (d) used to say:

    (d) silencers capable of being used only with long rifled rim-fire firearms;


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Sparks wrote: »
    Unknown f-t, but I'd love to hear what possible reasoning there could be in saying that you can have a .76 calibre pump-action loaded with buckshot (so thats one entire clip of 9mm ammunition fired at once whenever you pull the trigger) and sticking a dowel in the magazine is good enough to keep it off restricted status; but if you have a browning buckmark .22lr pistol with a crimped magazine, you couldn't be trusted to not uncrimp it!

    I mean, there's a point past which the Gardai aren't so much looking out for public safety as they would be taking the mickey...

    The original SI (in regard to pump-action or tube magazine shotguns) states
    "(b) shotguns manufactured, adapted or modified so as to render them incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges"

    which is where we (all) have assumed that the dowel approach is ok.
    But the new SI states (in regard to short firearms)
    "...provided that the magazine capacity... does not exceed five rounds..."

    I don't think it's implied that the magazine can be adapted to render it incapable of containing more than 5 rounds. Just my interpretation ok:)
    I think the NGBs for pistol sports would want a lot more clarity on this, before suggesting the "dowel" approach.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Sparks wrote: »
    I don't think the magazine size restriction scuppers anything actually.
    Got a semi-auto with a 10-round mag and don't want it restricted? Crimp the magazine. Revolver with 6-shot or more capacity? Plug the spare slots with dowels. If it's good enough for a shotgun...
    Is it still just about being restricted though?

    Don't forget that 4(2)(e) is now being used as the only method of getting a new pistol licence in the CJMPA 2009


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    ayapatrick wrote: »
    maybe im not reading it correctly but where does it say this?
    Just be aware that unrestricted does not mean that you don't need authorisation;)
    You need to indicate on your FCA1 form that you are intending to use a moderator/silencer on your firearm. I'm assuming that the famous credit card certificate will have that fact endorsed on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭ayapatrick


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Just be aware that unrestricted does not mean that you don't need authorisation;)
    You need to indicate on your FCA1 form that you are intending to use a moderator/silencer on your firearm. I'm assuming that the famous credit card certificate will have that fact endorsed on it.

    fully aware of that!:D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    fat-tony wrote: »
    The original SI (in regard to pump-action or tube magazine shotguns) states
    "(b) shotguns manufactured, adapted or modified so as to render them incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges"
    Yes, but the magazine in most shotguns is integral. Whereas the magazine in most pistols comes out. So we just use a magazine that has a five-round capacity. Maybe we have to buy new ones or maybe we can adapt old ones, but either way - the magazine capacity will be five rounds. That's what the SI calls for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Sparks wrote: »
    Yes, but the magazine in most shotguns is integral. Whereas the magazine in most pistols comes out. So we just use a magazine that has a five-round capacity. Maybe we have to buy new ones or maybe we can adapt old ones, but either way - the magazine capacity will be five rounds. That's what the SI calls for.
    I'm not really sure there's much merit in you and I continuing to debate the finer points of the intention of the SI;) The watchers of this forum in the DoJ will by now have picked up on the adaptation process you have suggested and I'm sure there will be clarification of intent in due course.:)
    I'm now just waiting for a thread to start that suggests it was all a dastardly plot by gunsmiths influencing the Minister so that they would earn a fortune modifying magazines for semi-autos and cylinders for revolvers:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 gunshy


    if all these s.i...restrictions,announcements etc...where in plain english think how easy it would be for us ,the gardai...and anyone else involved in f.a licensing :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    gunshy wrote: »
    if all these s.i...restrictions,announcements etc...where in plain english think how easy it would be for us ,the gardai...and anyone else involved in f.a licensing :P

    Where would the fun be in that though :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    johngalway wrote: »
    Where would the fun be in that though :D
    Boards would close down and IRLConor would be on the dole.

    Well done that Minister :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 gunshy


    sorry i forgot about the fun part ,...3 months time is it :P or :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    gunshy wrote: »
    sorry i forgot about the fun part ,...3 months time is it :P or :mad:

    Are we talkin prison time for an unlicensed firearm or time to apply for a licensed one? Lol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 gunshy


    the latter hopefully ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    seems daft that they haven't gone with ten rounds as a magazine capacity , i could understand with the likes of glocks etc taking 17 rounds - a limit of ten , but why not go to six and include revolvers as unrestricted ,
    so a buckmark or ruger mk 2 or 3 is restricted with one magazine and unrestricted with another , stupid !


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  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    rrpc wrote: »
    Boards would close down and IRLConor would be on the dole.

    Well done that Minister :D

    I dunno, if everything was in simple English then maybe we could talk about shooting rather than legal/political stuff. :D

    Seriously though, I think that if the government made a law about firearms in simple English it would read "No guns allowed". The English is complicated because the law is complicated. The law is complicated because they appear to be trying to encode their inconsistent, mixed-up value judgements into law.

    There seems to be a continuous confusion among law-makers here (and in some other countries) that shotguns are safer than rifles and rifles are safer than handguns. If some scumbag points a firearm at you it doesn't matter if it's a battered old single barrel .410 shotgun or a Deathbringer 5000™ 9mm (:eek::rolleyes:) pistol, it's still lethal. Similarly, you can't make a firearm more dangerous by adding pistol grips, bigger magazines, black plastic stocks, laser pointers or even a moderator. While they've made some moves to focussing on the shooter (referees, GP, etc) they're still fixated on the firearm. Until that stops we're going to have daft, inconsistent and unhelpful firearms legislation foisted upon us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    rowa wrote: »
    seems daft that they haven't gone with ten rounds as a magazine capacity , i could understand with the likes of glocks etc taking 17 rounds - a limit of ten , but why not go to six and include revolvers as unrestricted ,
    so a buckmark or ruger mk 2 or 3 is restricted with one magazine and unrestricted with another , stupid !
    We still don't have a definition (in the SI) as to what is acceptable (to the authorising Superintendent) as a short firearm "designed for use in connection with competitions governed by I.O.C. regulations". So you can't really say with any certainty that one pistol or another is restricted or unrestricted, regardless of magazine in use, until this definition is qualified in some way.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    also is it the firearm or magazine that is restricted to 5 rounds , that would mean a 4 round magazine with one up the spout ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    IRLConor wrote: »
    There seems to be a continuous confusion among law-makers here (and in some other countries) that shotguns are safer than rifles and rifles are safer than handguns. If some scumbag points a firearm at you it doesn't matter if it's a battered old single barrel .410 shotgun or a Deathbringer 5000™ 9mm (:eek::rolleyes:) pistol, it's still lethal.
    I think (all things being equal) that I'd prefer to be shot with the Deathbringer 5000 9mm, than the shotgun.

    A lot less messy and some chance of having a quality of life if you survive :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    rowa wrote: »
    also is it the firearm or magazine that is restricted to 5 rounds , that would mean a 4 round magazine with one up the spout ?
    Magazine capacity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    rowa wrote: »
    seems daft that they haven't gone with ten rounds as a magazine capacity , i could understand with the likes of glocks etc taking 17 rounds - a limit of ten , but why not go to six and include revolvers as unrestricted ,
    so a buckmark or ruger mk 2 or 3 is restricted with one magazine and unrestricted with another , stupid !

    A ssomone pointed out in Klintoons gun ban AKA the crime bill of 1994.
    Whats to stop somone from carrying two or more ten shot magazines if they intend going on a shooting spree????
    It's the same illogicality behind the shotgun magazine restriction..How long does it take out/put in a dowel.Screw on or off an extension?Change a stock? 5mins at most....Still no one has explained how a 9 shot prominent pistol gripped shotgun is more dangerous than a SXS cut criminally down to 12ins??? Hollywood has alot to answer for.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    i am pretty sure the magazine followers on the ruger mk3 and buckmark etc are just simple plastic blocks (what isn't these days) if i make a replacement set for my two magazines and i am pretty certain i could , does this mean that the pistol suddenly becomes unrestricted and nanny state friendly ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    rrpc wrote: »
    I think (all things being equal) that I'd prefer to be shot with the Deathbringer 5000 9mm, than the shotgun.

    A lot less messy and some chance of having a quality of life if you survive :(

    In history theres a popular misconception that the colt 45 or winchester 73 won the west, truth be told it was the shotgun that won the west and stopped manys a gunfight before they started, best close range battle weapon going and still carried today US forces:eek::D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    In history theres a popular misconception that the colt 45 or winchester 73 won the west, truth be told it was the shotgun that won the west and stopped manys a gunfight before they started, best close range battle weapon going and still carried today US forces:eek::D:D

    There is a certain crumlin "business man" we all know from the news that was shot on numerous occasions , the last count of hits he took from a 9mm was 9 or 10 , he's still here , one lick of a 12 bore with bb, ssg or similar and it would have been curtains first time out ,

    i think the people to blame for this obsession with magazine are gaston glock for achieveing 17 rounds into his first pistol and bill ruger who sent a letter to congress in the states saying that " no law abiding man needed more than 10 rounds in a gun "

    i don't think it makes much odds if you want to fire more rounds simply carry more magazines /speedloaders.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Hibrion


    Does anyone reckon that companies making the ruger mks, buckmarrks, xesse etc. will bring out 5 round mags?? Would solve the problem pretty quickly??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Hibrion wrote: »
    Does anyone reckon that companies making the ruger mks, buckmarrks, xesse etc. will bring out 5 round mags?? Would solve the problem pretty quickly??

    There's no market for them. I doubt Ireland features on their radar as a happy hunting ground, as it were.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    Hibrion wrote: »
    Does anyone reckon that companies making the ruger mks, buckmarrks, xesse etc. will bring out 5 round mags?? Would solve the problem pretty quickly??
    i wouldn't think it would be worth there while , ireland is such a tiny market for pistols and accessories , i have just checked the magazines for the ruger and they are restricted by a small steel pin controlling how far down the follower can go into the body of the magazine , 20 mins on the lathe will have the new ones made and the problem solved :D.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Hibrion wrote: »
    Does anyone reckon that companies making the ruger mks, buckmarrks, xesse etc. will bring out 5 round mags?? Would solve the problem pretty quickly??
    See my post (#32). First the Supers need to accept that the Rugers, Buckmarks, eXesses fall within the definition of "designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations:"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    fat-tony wrote: »
    See my post (#32). First the Supers need to accept that the Rugers, Buckmarks, eXesses fall within the definition of "designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations:"
    i did see that fat-tony but how can one 5 shot .22lr pistol be anymore dangerous than another 5 shot .22lr pistol , there will have to be some sort of lee-way to allow beginners to take up the sport using a cheaper pistol
    mine is stamped competition target in two or three places , i'd say most supers would be happy with that .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    The only problem with the five shot limit is that it screws up WA1500 and timed and precision matches where it's all based on six shots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    rrpc wrote: »
    The only problem with the five shot limit is that it screws up WA1500 and timed and precision matches where it's all based on six shots.
    yes for the sake of one extra round , but maybe ahern doesn't like wa1500 etc either .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 990 ✭✭✭daveob007


    The minister could have left revolvers alone for the the sake of 1 round.
    Fine if he wanted pistols to take only 5 but has anyone told him that revolvers take just 6.

    Would love to know who advised him on these new regulations,must have been someone who never seen a gun in their lives except for in a terminator movie...

    asta la vista baby


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    daveob007 wrote: »
    The minister could have left revolvers alone for the the sake of 1 round.
    Fine if he wanted pistols to take only 5 but has anyone told him that revolvers take just 6.

    Would love to know who advised him on these new regulations,must have been someone who never seen a gun in their lives except for in a terminator movie...

    asta la vista baby

    Maybe its because some revolvers take more than six, taurus make an 8 shot 22 magnum , they could have left i at 6 shot revolvers though for the sake of competition:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Not all revolvers take six rounds. I think the highest I've seen is a revolver that took thirty rounds...

    edit: Yeah, here it is:

    59985.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    that makes a ten round limit look paltry !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    rowa wrote: »
    that makes a ten round limit look paltry !

    one on each hip and your good to go!:D


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