Long runs and surfaces

--amadeus--

Copied from here to keep that thread OT

OutsideLane wrote: »

Re. the advice of doing all your work on the road....... Not what most would recommend. I don't know your experience, ability or aims but most serious runners avoid doing too much on the road for various reasons (mainly to avoid injury). This summer it hasn't been easy to run on grass (most places too soft and mucky).
Best of luck with your training.

Afraid I disagree 100%

First up no-one was suggesting she do all of her work on road, myself and TFB said that it's better to do your LSRs on the road.

And for a road marathon I stand by that. I would actually say that the majority of your road marathon training should be on the road. The reason is simple - you need to replicate racing stresses on your body during training. 26.2 miles on concrete / tarmac puts immense stress on your joints and the only effective way to prepare for that stress is train for it. Specificity of training is a vital component of any training plan and all of teh books I've read (Noakes, P&D, Galloway) all recommend doing your LSRs on road with speed work on a track and (where needed) recovery runs on grass.

OutsideLane

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Afraid I disagree 100%

First up no-one was suggesting she do all of her work on road, myself and TFB said that it's better to do your LSRs on the road.

And for a road marathon I stand by that. I would actually say that the majority of your road marathon training should be on the road. The reason is simple - you need to replicate racing stresses on your body during training. 26.2 miles on concrete / tarmac puts immense stress on your joints and the only effective way to prepare for that stress is train for it. Specificity of training is a vital component of any training plan and all of teh books I've read (Noakes, P&D, Galloway) all recommend doing your LSRs on road with speed work on a track and (where needed) recovery runs on grass.

Stick to your regime if you believe in it so strongly, but I hope you never see shin splints, stress fractures, prematurely-worn joints, etc.

As regards success - the East Africans invariably do all the training they can on grass (sometimes dirt or clay...), but avoid concrete and tarmac if at all possible. HG did an interesting interview on this following his win in Berlin a couple of years ago. Going back in time you'll find the same - Lopez, Bikila, Zatopek (he added training in snow for Winter!), and the Finns in the 20s and 30s. I'd consider all of these reasonably succesful marathon runners, even if they avoided training on hard surfaces.

Closer to home Radcliffe improved both her performances and lessened her injury problems when she replaced her long road runs with more (off-road)pace work. Our most successful marathon runner did most of her running at Malahide Castle and in the Park (and she still goes for the odd jaunt).

Over-distance training basically started with Lydiard and was later taken on by the (East) Germans and them by US coaches and athletes. The 2 main training bases in the US took it to an extreme (and coined the acronynm LSR). What many forgot about was that Lydiard's base-training had at it's core 35km hilly runs that started out at moderate pace (3:30/km) and progressed to 3:15-20 pace and then to 3:02-05 pace for te racing season. The 'slow' was relative, and was quicker than a lot of pace work done by many runners today. Even Lydiard evolved his training following his stint in Finland to include more threshold and fartlek work - Vasala was probably his greatest success from this time and he was famous (or notorious) for the hill sessions in the woods near where he lived. Viren's coach also worked with Lydiard.

These days base-work is considered important still, but exceeding 100 miles per week during this phase isn't now considered necessary (or prudent for some). What is also relevant is that what will work for one athlete may not necessarily be the best for others. Which is where physiological testing can help. AIS has some interesting papers on the subject. Plenty of papers from Italy, Spain and Portugal also on the subject (not all translated).

Viren gave an interesting comment when asked about his secret following his wins in Montreal - "the person who runs for the shortest time wins". His training regime was noted for the mileage put in but here he was saying it was ultimately about speed. One of his great rivals (DB) neglected that aspect and their head-to-head record speaks for itself.

Here's a link to an article that appeared a few years ago that you may find interesting http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=5479

Good luck with your running!


BTW, I do agree that running on concrete and tarmac puts tremendous stress on the joints.

--amadeus--

Excellent post and well written but I think we are looking at / discussing very different ends of teh spectrum.

Elite marathon runners are training 100+ mpw. At that sort of level there is absolutely no doubt that your joints will need as much protection as possible. But the number of people running that sort of mileage is vanishingly low in the context of this forum. If you look at the DCM thread on here for example you will see that half of teh runners are planning 4hr+ (21 from 43) and only 4 planning sub 3.

In that context there is a balance to be struck. If you are running 20 - 40 miles per week on average in training then the risk to your joints is (comparatively) low, however if you don't take teh time to acclimatise your body to the impact of 26 miles on concrete then the experience on teh day will be painful and potentially more damaging (in both the short and teh long term) then doing your LSRs on road.

ss43

--amadeus-- wrote: »

First up no-one was suggesting she do all of her work on road, myself and TFB said that it's better to do your LSRs on the road.

And for a road marathon I stand by that. I would actually say that the majority of your road marathon training should be on the road. The reason is simple - you need to replicate racing stresses on your body during training. 26.2 miles on concrete / tarmac puts immense stress on your joints and the only effective way to prepare for that stress is train for it. Specificity of training is a vital component of any training plan and all of teh books I've read (Noakes, P&D, Galloway) all recommend doing your LSRs on road with speed work on a track and (where needed) recovery runs on grass.

Based on wanting specificity, why do long runs slow and why go near a track?

--amadeus--

That is a HUGE question and it's late and I'm off to bed (so I hope someone gives a better answer tiomm) but in brief...

According to specificity of training the best possible training for a marathon would be to run 26.2 miles on roads. That replicates exactly the race experience and so trains exactly teh right systems. In teh real world though most people would drop with an over-use injury within days and there is no way you could apply even effort to teh training, you'd simply be wiped out.

So a well designed marathon training plan breaks teh components of marathon fitness down and works on them individually. To run 26.2 miles you need endurance and the LSR builds that endurance, along with enhancing running economy, increasing your ability to handle the stresses of long distances on teh road and so on. But if all of your training consisted of long slow miles you'd just be able to run long but slow. So a good plan will also include speed sessions to work on attributes like your Lactate Threshold and VO2 max.

You then combine these with Planned Marathon Pace (PMP) runs where you mix your speed (from teh track) and your endurance (from your LSRs) and specifically train your speed endurance.

Having built the elements and tapered you then bring it all together on race day

tunney

My 2c, it is all about leg durability.

If you are running 30 miles a week, you need to be doing LSR on roads to help build leg durabilty. If you are running 100+ mpw then you're going to get leg durability from the miles and then the benefits of leg durability are outweighed by the risk of injury.

scottreynolds

Isn't camber more important than surface.

I was reading 'advanced marathoning' as well as a runner world book and they mentioned that the surface isn't actually considered a threat so much as the camber. Running consistently the same routes the same way invariably means the same stresses on the body and we should vary our running.


Regardiing the other topic in this thread LSR is relative. Essentially its performing below your maximum speed so you can run longer and build endurance (as Amadeus states) all while avoiding injury. Its possible (but certainly not recommended) that doing Long Fast Runs would also build the adaptions required so week one 5 miles MP, week two 6 miles MP etc etc but as you get more miles your risk of injury would also increase.

Renseignement

Everyone has their own methods. Some do all road work, some mixed road / cross country. You have to find your own ballance. Road work is always aplicable because that's where the marathons take place, but cross country running builds up stamina in a different way which is just as vital.

I am now 63, still run and have been a cross country/marathon runner all my life, with a difference. My running was all military and obviously sometimes carrying packs and equipment. What you should do is find a good trainer who will look at HOW you run. How you place your feet in alignment to your body for example. Most stress injuries are not caused by pounding the concrete as most people think, but by the way your feet are angled when they make contact with the road. If the are not strait the resulting stress on knee joints and shins is enormous. Also try to keep your arms square to your body. Arms crossing over in front of you compress the chest and lungs causing problems on longer distances.

Most of the problems in marathon running are in the head. When you sart to tire, target run. That is fixing your mind on points ahead like a tree in the distance or a bridge and say to yourself, that's my next target and so on. It takes your mind off "Where is the finish, I'm never going to make it" thoughts.

Above all, enjoy it. At the end of the day that's what it's all about. The winning is important but only 1 in a 10,000 can do that and if your one of them you wouldn't ask these questions.

Have fun, stay fit and enjoy the company of wierd people like ourselves, because nobody else understands why we do it.

:):)

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Excellent post and well written but I think we are looking at / discussing very different ends of teh spectrum.

Elite marathon runners are training 100+ mpw. At that sort of level there is absolutely no doubt that your joints will need as much protection as possible.

I think overweight/inefficient novices would need to take far greater steps to protect their joints than an elite runner would.

Also this thing of separating the 'two ends of the spectrum' doesn't make sense. People here are trying to perform their best - to do this they should follow the principles of the best coaches and athletes.

RJC

Renseignement wrote: »

Everyone has their own methods. Some do all road work, some mixed road / cross country. You have to find your own ballance. Road work is always aplicable because that's where the marathons take place, but cross country running builds up stamina in a different way which is just as vital.

I am now 63, still run and have been a cross country/marathon runner all my life, with a difference. My running was all military and obviously sometimes carrying packs and equipment. What you should do is find a good trainer who will look at HOW you run. How you place your feet in alignment to your body for example. Most stress injuries are not caused by pounding the concrete as most people think, but by the way your feet are angled when they make contact with the road. If the are not strait the resulting stress on knee joints and shins is enormous. Also try to keep your arms square to your body. Arms crossing over in front of you compress the chest and lungs causing problems on longer distances.

Most of the problems in marathon running are in the head. When you sart to tire, target run. That is fixing your mind on points ahead like a tree in the distance or a bridge and say to yourself, that's my next target and so on. It takes your mind off "Where is the finish, I'm never going to make it" thoughts.

Above all, enjoy it. At the end of the day that's what it's all about. The winning is important but only 1 in a 10,000 can do that and if your one of them you wouldn't ask these questions.

Have fun, stay fit and enjoy the company of wierd people like ourselves, because nobody else understands why we do it.

:):)

Great post, full of common sense and says something for everyone.

--amadeus--

cfitz wrote: »

I think overweight/inefficient novices would need to take far greater steps to protect their joints than an elite runner would.

Also this thing of separating the 'two ends of the spectrum' doesn't make sense. People here are trying to perform their best - to do this they should follow the principles of the best coaches and athletes.

But the very fact that they are overweight and / or inefficient is why it is so important that they condition thier legs by gradually increasing teh distances run on road week by week. Are you trying to suggest that an overweight 5hr+ marathon runner should do thier training on grass and only go on road on the day? I did all of my LSRs on the road prior to my 1st marathon with a lot of my other runs on softer surfaces (mainly gravel tracks). After the race I could barely bend my left leg my hip had taken such a pounding during teh race and my knees were stiff for days. And that was after a couple of months of building what Tunney called "leg durability". Had I attempted to run it without those on road LSRs I guarantee you that I would not have finished. Bear in mind that this was off a lightweight program - peaking at 30 - 35 MPW.

And while certain concepts / principals from elite runners can be applied to slower runners they need to be adjusted accordingly. Adapting a program simply because its what Paula or HG does is short sighted in the extreme. Learn from them yes, but don't blindly ape them.

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But the very fact that they are overweight and / or inefficient is why it is so important that they condition thier legs by gradually increasing teh distances run on road week by week. Are you trying to suggest that an overweight 5hr+ marathon runner should do thier training on grass and only go on road on the day?

I'd suggest they don't go near a marathon until they're lean and efficient. But the point is that OutsideLane's references to the Gebresalassie, Radcliffe, Bikila and Zatopek remain valid.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And while certain concepts / principals from elite runners can be applied to slower runners they need to be adjusted accordingly. Adapting a program simply because its what Paula or HG does is short sighted in the extreme. Learn from them yes, but don't blindly ape them.

Nobody suggested that Paula's programme should be adapted for a beginner. Just that running on hard surfaces regularly might not be the best way to prepare for a marathon. If I was coaching an athlete to a marathon I would probably recommend doing a lot of running on the road, but OutsideLane has made a very valid argument that says it may not be necessary and may allow an athlete to avoid injury. I haven't seen a valid counter-argument here yet.

sideswipe

In relation to surfaces and leg durability as mentioned above would experienced marathon runners advice using the machines in a gym to help build up and strengthen the leg muscles or is simply running enough to build the required strength?
I'm a first timer running 30-40 miles a week at this stage but am not sure whether I should also be doing some gym work to condition my legs.

shels4ever

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But the very fact that they are overweight and / or inefficient is why it is so important that they condition thier legs by gradually increasing teh distances run on road week by week. Are you trying to suggest that an overweight 5hr+ marathon runner should do thier training on grass and only go on road on the day? I did all of my LSRs on the road prior to my 1st marathon with a lot of my other runs on softer surfaces (mainly gravel tracks). After the race I could barely bend my left leg my hip had taken such a pounding during teh race and my knees were stiff for days. And that was after a couple of months of building what Tunney called "leg durability". Had I attempted to run it without those on road LSRs I guarantee you that I would not have finished. Bear in mind that this was off a lightweight program - peaking at 30 - 35 MPW.

And while certain concepts / principals from elite runners can be applied to slower runners they need to be adjusted accordingly. Adapting a program simply because its what Paula or HG does is short sighted in the extreme. Learn from them yes, but don't blindly ape them.

I'd agree with you there to a point.

I think it depends on a number of individual factors, mechanics, weight, and base miles. For a lot of people marathons can be a once off event and they maybe coming from a very poor standard of fitness and low base miles.

In this case I feel that stress of training for a marathon will put more pressure on the body then the actual running of the marathon. so a mix of surfaces would be wise. They do not have the years of base running and muscle development. One thing I was amazed with last year when running was the change in lower leg calf over the period of training. I only run on grass but did 50%+ of each long run on road to get used to the stress. I’ve heard stories of people doing all their training on grass and then cramping up during the marathon.

One thing I did lear from running the marathon is that I'll never do one again if I dont have a long long base phase with high mileage prior to marathon training.

trotter_inc

sideswipe wrote: »

In relation to surfaces and leg durability as mentioned above would experienced marathon runners advice using the machines in a gym to help build up and strengthen the leg muscles or is simply running enough to build the required strength?
I'm a first timer running 30-40 miles a week at this stage but am not sure whether I should also be doing some gym work to condition my legs.

I ran my first marathon this year, I ran the Cork City Marathon in June in a time of 3 hrs 14 mins on what was a surprisingly very hot day! I used a 16 week programme, for the first 3 weeks I alternated between the road and the threadmill, just to ease my way in to the pressure on the legs.

For the remaining 13 weeks I did everything on the road and I found it extremely tough going on the legs, the cardio fitness side of things wasn't a problem, just the strain on the legs. My legs are quite skinny and found myself getting cramps, including shin splints quite a bit, I put this down to the pressure the road was having on my legs as I always did a lot of pre and post stretching. Currently, I'm doing some leg weights (squats, calf raises, etc) to try strengthen them up before doing any long distances on the road. Right now, I'm not going over 11 miles and I'm finding it quite comfortable, I'm not sure whether it's down to the leg weights or simply that I'm not doing as much as I was for the Cork marathon.

I'm hoping the leg weights will help prevent any cramping and strains in the future, as I can't wait to get back doing some longer runs.

As an aside, for a first timer I found the book 'The Lore of Running' a great aid, I got it in Waterstones for approx €22, it's a bit daunting as it looks like a college textbook but I can assure you that there are some worthwhile articles in it. I also found it excellent for motivation, some of the professional runners pieces are very interesting.

Good luck with the training, once you get going it's addictive

Renseignement

Like anything that requires extensive training, don't think that the more experience you have and fitter you become that it gets any easier. Believe me it dosen't.

When you first start marathon running you find your times come down by leaps and bounds and it pleases you no end. The problem is that the better you get the improvements start to get smaller until you are talking about seconds in the way you talked about minutes before.

This is a mental problem that is sometimes hard to take in and overcome.
We suddenly start to become competative. It's true that the more you improve and the fitter you get, the harder it becomes and the tireder you become. You will find yourself in a completely different world where just finshing is never enough. Where you finish and how long it takes is all that matters. Before finishing 2,500th didn't matter a ****, it was just great to get over that line.

Marathon running is the biggest mass participant sport of its kind in the world. Hundreds of thousands take part world wide but only a handful are winners. At that level it's no longer sport, its a full time job with big money involved.

Don't lose sight of why you do it. Fun, health and companionship. At the end of the day you have to enjoy the training. You spend more time doing that than participating in the actual races. I love the running and training outdoors and hate gyms, so get out there and enjoy it.
:):)

OutsideLane

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But the very fact that they are overweight and / or inefficient is why it is so important that they condition thier legs by gradually increasing teh distances run on road week by week. Are you trying to suggest that an overweight 5hr+ marathon runner should do thier training on grass and only go on road on the day? I did all of my LSRs on the road prior to my 1st marathon with a lot of my other runs on softer surfaces (mainly gravel tracks). After the race I could barely bend my left leg my hip had taken such a pounding during teh race and my knees were stiff for days. And that was after a couple of months of building what Tunney called "leg durability". Had I attempted to run it without those on road LSRs I guarantee you that I would not have finished. Bear in mind that this was off a lightweight program - peaking at 30 - 35 MPW.

And while certain concepts / principals from elite runners can be applied to slower runners they need to be adjusted accordingly. Adapting a program simply because its what Paula or HG does is short sighted in the extreme. Learn from them yes, but don't blindly ape them.

Agree wholeheartedly with your last para. Learn from others and also recognise that everyone is different and may need slightly different approaches. But you seem to acknowledge that ashphalt and concrete are unforgiving surfaces that can (& do) cause damage.

However, I would never recommend anyone tackling a marathon on 30 miles a week. Assuming a basic level of fitness to start with I would recommend building up to a minimum of 4 sessions a week (5 or even 6 would be better) with at least one long (steady rather than slow) run per week peaking at a minimum of 17-18 miles, that plateau (min miles 45 pw, 50-55 would be even better) to be maintained for at least 3 weeks and tapering down for the last 2 weeks. You could also substitute one of those long runs with a race (min dist 1/2 marathon). This would the absolute minimum recommended. 20-40 mpw (for as couple of months min) would be a fine base to start from, esp for a 'fun-runner' (hate that term...).

Someone mentioned the effects of camber and inefficient running styles - all relevant, but remember the stresses induced by the pounding on hard surfaces do cause damage. Renseignment mentions cross-country, and yes, that's a good way to get a decent level of base fitness, but you don't need to be running a cross-country season in order to prepare for a marathon. But a marathon needs to be respected and hence you do need to work up to tackling a decent mileage every so often.
Well done trotter on completing Cork in a very respectable time. My fool's recommendation would be to do at least some of your training on a more forgiving surface, but work into it. No sudden changes. Like mileage increases, a little at a time is a good adage. Joing a club (or group) would also be a good way to learn more (& quicker).

And folks, nothing wrong with doing the odd short (10k or even less) road or off-road race. You might even find you'll get to like these even more.

Best of luck...!