Irish fishing industry - could we have developed it ?

KingKiller

I have heard before that the Irish fishing industry could have been developed into a billion dollar industry, but instead we handed it over to Brussels for foreign exploitation ( a bit like Shell in Mayo ? ). To be honest, I don't know much about economics and business etc, but is true that we could have developed it into a huge industry and if so, what otehr country' fishing industry could we have based it on ?

SLUSK

From what I gather fishing as an industry is not profitable unless it gets subsidized heavily.

kevteljeur

"we handed it over to Brussels for foreign exploitation" = We joined the EU and at the time (historically, in fact) were making little use of the fishing area. It was probably a very good trade-off then and now to get EU funding to evolve from being a third-world country with a massively under-utilised resource, than to keep it, do nothing with it and remain a third world country.



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KingKiller

kevteljeur wrote: »

"we handed it over to Brussels for foreign exploitation" = We joined the EU and at the time (historically, in fact) were making little use of the fishing area. It was probably a very good trade-off then and now to get EU funding to evolve from being a third-world country with a massively under-utilised resource, than to keep it, do nothing with it and remain a third world country.



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We " were making little use of the fishing area. " and yes fishing was " massively under-utilised resource ". My OP been, was it not logical the govt. borrow and invest in our fishing industry developing it into a large and profitable industry, instead of leaving it lying idle. Bit like having oil offshore and leaving it there. I know because of the rules of the EU etc our seas have been open to others, but surely this was a massively incompotent waste ( nothing new there ) by our Govt ?

Mike...

How about all our marine and off shore rescources....Gas maybe Oil...
Everything, we are fishermen who don't fish, we allow foreign vessels enter our waters, rob our stocks and ram our boats...

Reference

IRISH TRAWLER RAMMED BY SPANISH BOAT
I learned two new aspect maritime life this week of which I was unaware up to now --- the lack of enforcement powers of the Navy at sea is one of them. This was brought to my attention by John Nolan, Manager of the Castletownbere Fishermen's Co-op in West Cork. He was angry that one of the boats fishing for the Co-op, the 23-metre 'Boy Jason' had been rammed in the stern by a Spanish-registered longliner, so he alleged. The Castletownbere boat had to return to port for repairs and claimed the Spanish vessel had steamed across its stern in an attempt to cut its warps, but collided with it.
"This action endangers lives, but worse still is that there are no laws for effective policing action to be taken as far as we can see and we are fed up with it," John Nolan told me. "The Spanish are trying to force Irish boats out of fishing grounds."
I checked the situation and the Navy said they had taken statements from both skippers and reported the matter to the Marine Survey Office of the Department of Transport. That was as far as the Navy was prepared to go, even though it would seem that any such incident is against the Collision at Sea Regulations. Apparently they have no 'policing' powers for other than fisheries outside of 12 nautical miles. I then contacted the Department of Transport which is responsible for maritime safety and got the following response from the Marine Survey Office of the Department:
"We would like to advise that we do not comment on any ongoing investigations. However, in general we would handle such instances as follows:
. The relevant legislation outside the 12nm limit is the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
. In cases outside the 12nm limit Ireland would become involved if one or both of the vessels involved was flying the Irish flag.
. We would request a report from the master of the Irish ships involved.
. We would inspect the ship on its return to port. The Master would need to advise us of his ETA and send us in a report.
. We would investigate as far as possible and if deemed necessary we would contact the flag state administration of any other vessels involved.
. We would also welcome any other evidence which may be supplied by other parties such as the Navy etc...
Unfortunately, we do not have anyone available for an interview."
With the greatest respect to the Office, that did not seem to me to be a response which indicated effective action and seemed to leave a potentially lawless situation on the seas, with no effective 'policing' as the Castletownbere Co-op claimed. I responded in that regard to the Department. The Co-op also maintained that there had been other similar incidents and Manager John Nolan said that Minister Noel Dempsey had been "very forceful in acting against Irish fishermen for minor fisheries offences, but there is no sign of action being taken to prevent this danger to life at sea."

And another

A Fishing boss last night accused Spanish trawlermen of murder after an Irish skipper was killed in a collision at sea.

Daniel O'Driscoll, the owner of the Castletownbere fishing boat Exodus, died after his 52ft ketch sank in Irish waters off the entrance to Bantry Bay.

Crewmen claimed the boat had been deliberately rammed by the Spanish vessel, the 100ft steel-hulled Sea Horse. Last night the crew were held for questioning after docking at Bantry.

Nody

Mike... wrote: »

How about all our marine and off shore rescources....Gas maybe Oil...
Everything, we are fishermen who don't fish, we allow foreign vessels enter our waters, rob our stocks and ram our boats...
another

How much oil have been pumped up? How much gas?

The fishing industry in EU is currently ONLY existing because it is heavily subsidized and no other reason; don't try to turn it into something it is not. After all it was EU tha tpaid for the boats, the training and EU paying them to not go fishing in the first place because there stock is running low.

Diarmuid

KingKiller wrote: »

but instead we handed it over to Brussels for foreign exploitation ( a bit like Shell in Mayo ? ). ?

Why bother asking? From your leading question it's pretty obvious that you already have your mind made up.

MrMicra

It is an interesting question. But alas a red herring. Calls for state investment in fishing had been made from the foundation of the state but successive Irish governments had done very little.

Brendan Behan in Brendan Behan's Island comments on the fact that the (FF I believe) government was condemned for exporting fish to East Germany. That was the level of political debate.

When one considers that the fishing areas voted FF consistently and that they include(d) a massively higher proportion of Irish speakers than the population as a whole it should have been a no brainer to develop the sector. It should have been such a no brainer as to actually happen.

This may be to underestimate just how backward the fishing industry was in Ireland in the '60s. Tiny boats, no enforcement and minimal ability to process and export fish. By contrast we were exporting farm produce before joining the EU.

The comparison that should be made is the total value of the food processing sector in Ireland today contrasted with an 'imaginary' value of the NonEU food processing sector.

To that one should add CAP payments in favour of the EU and the undoubted development of the western seaboard in favour of a NonEU Ireland.

Also those who believe that our fisheries were sold too cheaply should acknowledge that we hadn't exploited them and ask why this would have changed.

It might also be the case that we could have kept our fisheries and got everything else. Certainly I would suggest that we could have kept the Spanish out of the Irish Box forever.

By the way KingKane I don't mean to be snide but I am sure that Fishing and Fish Processing is a billion dollar industry.

Salvelinus

KingKiller wrote: »

I have heard before that the Irish fishing industry could have been developed into a billion dollar industry, but instead we handed it over to Brussels for foreign exploitation ( a bit like Shell in Mayo ? ). To be honest, I don't know much about economics and business etc, but is true that we could have developed it into a huge industry and if so, what otehr country' fishing industry could we have based it on ?

Really not that straight forward. I worked in a fish processing factory one year and the size of the fish being killed was a disgrace; mackerel hardly bigger than a goldfish and the area where I'm from each year the number of mackerel appearing in the bays is plummeting. Also look at salmon, fish are a limited resource and if you keep killing a lot of them there's going to be a critical point. No matter what we would always kill a good thing here.

ART6

Starting from the point that I know little other than what I have read of the fishing industry, maybe there's another dimension to the EU access to Irish fishing grounds. That is the regulation applied by the EU that sets maximum catch sizes and fish sizes. Any catch over quota has to be dumped, and any undersized fish have to be dumped. The result appears to be that large quantities of dead fish are simply dumped back into the sea for one of those two reasons. The result is apparent overfishing that depletes stocks and requires more restrictions on catch sizes.

So it seems to my uneducated mind that the problem is not so much whether or not the EU should have been given acces to the Irish box, but more to do with the insane and ignorant way in which the EU Commission formulates legislation. Once again civil servants in their ivory towers in Brussels or Dublin or Westminister can happily demonstrate their utter lack of contact with the real world.

jmayo

SLUSK wrote: »

From what I gather fishing as an industry is not profitable unless it gets subsidized heavily.

Just like a lot of other industries then :rolleyes:

Nody wrote: »

How much oil have been pumped up? How much gas?

The fishing industry in EU is currently ONLY existing because it is heavily subsidized and no other reason; don't try to turn it into something it is not. After all it was EU tha tpaid for the boats, the training and EU paying them to not go fishing in the first place because there stock is running low.

It may currently be only existing, due to over fishing of stocks in the past, but a good chunk of Northern Spain and places like Vigo did damm well out of the Irish waters.

Irish fishing was always a marginal affair and as a people we were never really storng fish eaters or a maritme nation.
Saying that fishing was sold out so that famring could benefiti, more people involved in farming, more votes and thus more beneficial to politicians election chances.

MrMicra

jmayo wrote: »

Saying that fishing was sold out so that famring could benefiti, more people involved in farming, more votes and thus more beneficial to politicians election chances.

My grandfather was a fisherman and I am emotional about the way that fishing was sold out but it made economic sense. farming was more developed and there was much more added value in farming. Irish farmers coops had been selling branded goods abroad since the very early '60s.

If a choice had to be made farming was the right choice.

Salvelinus

MrMicra wrote: »

My grandfather was a fisherman and I am emotional about the way that fishing was sold out but it made economic sense. farming was more developed and there was much more added value in farming. Irish farmers coops had been selling branded goods abroad since the very early '60s.

If a choice had to be made farming was the right choice.

How was it sold out, fish stocks are dwindling all around the coast. If we had of went ahead with no EU involvemnt we would have burnt out the resource.

MrMicra

Salvelinus wrote: »

How was it sold out, fish stocks are dwindling all around the coast. If we had of went ahead with no EU involvemnt we would have burnt out the resource.

1. We could have managed our fish stocks.
2. Our exclusive fishing ground was much larger than the coastal area.

I don't accept that irish fisheries would have been burnt out. Certainly we should have refused Spain access to the 'Irish Box' in perpetuity.

topper75

I'm nobody's eco-nut, but I highly recommend this movie:

http://endoftheline.com/

My heart says we should have gone with the fishing rights as opposed to milk quotas but my head tells me we couldn't have afforded the required patrolling costs to defend fisheries and fish stocks have been walloped off Ireland in the meantime.

Look - the big boats are now going out through the Panama canal now for catch cos W.Africa is also destroyed.

The CAP ain't going to go on forever either in our lifetimes.

Salvelinus

MrMicra wrote: »

1. We could have managed our fish stocks.
2. Our exclusive fishing ground was much larger than the coastal area.

I don't accept that irish fisheries would have been burnt out. Certainly we should have refused Spain access to the 'Irish Box' in perpetuity.

Other countries oculd, Ireland couldn't. We can't manage or plan here, we would have killed every thing that swimmed and then wonder why there's no more.