Child Smacking..

procure11

The New-zealanders have just voted in favour of parents smacking their children..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8214011.stm

I think it is a very controversial issue and always seems to generate very emotive debates.What do you think? Should parents be allowed to smack their kids or should the Government formulate legislation to ban it?

I personally have two minds on this.On one handI feel it should be the parents prerogative to bring up their wards in the way they feel its most appropriate...but also with so much child abuse going on it would also be wise for there to be some form of legislation on what exactly constitutes physical abuse through smacking.

biko

Maybe they should let the children vote next time.

Malari

Maybe we should be allowed vote for the right to smack other people's children.

utick

parents being allowed to discipline their children, i bet the UN wont like this, i bet new zealand will rank lower on there next quality of life surveys

meglome

procure11 wrote: »

I personally have two minds on this.On one handI feel it should be the parents prerogative to bring up their wards in the way they feel its most appropriate...but also with so much child abuse going on it would also be wise for there to be some form of legislation on what exactly constitutes physical abuse through smacking.

I thinks there's a big difference between a kid getting a smack and getting the crap beaten out of them. I don't think parents should be penalised for a little smack but they should be hunted down and punished severely for the latter.

esharknz

I'm a New Zealander living in Ireland, and I actually voted in this referendum.

There are a large number of murders of children each year. Too horrific to mention what some of these poor children went through. This law was brought in as a knee jerk reaction to attempt to reduce the number of deaths.

From what I could see, this had the effect of criminalising your average parent, which is counter productive and a waste of resources, where the target group would't give a toss that smacking was now illegal and still went in to make the lives of their now deceased children utter hell.

beans

I advocate smacking nippers until 2yrs old or so. After that, they're likely to start remembering and exact their revenge one day.

Ruu_Old

"Big deal! When I was a pup, we got spanked by presidents 'til the cows came home. Grover Cleveland spanked me on two non-consecutive occasions."

MrsA

Some of the worse child abuse cases I have ever heard of have come out of New Zealand, does anyone remember those poor little twins - Kahui I think might have been their surname. Then there was a little girl who died in a washing machine. Those parents were not just smacking their children - it was horiffic to read what went on.

I personally do not smack, I am against smacking as it teaches nothing. In fact maybe it does teach something, that if you are bigger and can hurt someone well then go ahead because it is okay

M
xx

orourkeda

Lame

procure11

meglome wrote: »

I thinks there's a big difference between a kid getting a smack and getting the crap beaten out of them. I don't think parents should be penalised for a little smack but they should be hunted down and punished severely for the latter.

I actually agree with you.I certainly do not think parents should be penalised when they sensibly (being the operation word) discipline their kids.

Four-Percent

Ruu wrote: »

"Big deal! When I was a pup, we got spanked by presidents 'til the cows came home. Grover Cleveland spanked me on two non-consecutive occasions."

Ruu, I'd love to meet you in real life. The conversation would be a neverending steam of entertaining quotes

Diabhal Beag

This will end well :rolleyes:

Euro_Kraut

The referendum asked: "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?"

Thats a leading question. Surprise they let that into a referendum. It would be like the Lisbon Treaty ballot paper asking 'Should Ireland ratifity the Lisbon Treaty as part of our ongoing commitment to European Integration'

tolosenc

Kids who know that there's a wallop on it's way if they overstep the line tend to be better behaved, imo.

Smacking a child and beating a child to death are two wholly different things. No way should a government impinge on parents' methods of disciplining their child. I was raised that way, as were countless generations before me, and it did us no harm.

Randy Shafter

I think parents have every right to smack or slap their children if they're being cheeky etc. It will teach them not to be little brats and put a bit of disipline into them. The latter which i believe is lacking in children in Ireland today.

citizen_p

i got slapped as a kid.. im fine...

i dont mind slapping in circumstances....
but remember theres a diffrence between one slap and a beating...

Long Onion

I heard that the phrase "rule of thumb" came from an old law which held that men could beat their wives as long as the stick used for the beating did not have a diameter greater than the man's thumb.

This is what we need, well thought out laws.

On a serious note though, I will smack my child if it is warranted but will never use excessive force - this is for lowlife's and the morally bankrupt.

ejmaztec

Locking them in a cupboard with no food and water for a week usually does the trick.

tolosenc

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Thats a leading question. Surprise they let that into a referendum. It would be like the Lisbon Treaty ballot paper asking 'Should Ireland ratifity the Lisbon Treaty as part of our ongoing commitment to European Integration'

By definition, a leading question is one which has two answers: yes or no. Perfect for a referendum.

It's not as if they were saying "Yes or No, have you stopped beating your kids?"

I believe that wording is in the proposed amendment on which we will vote in October.

Professey Chin

This is how you instill discipline :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIpU4Z99EUA

JennyMaguire

Talking out of turn. That's a paddlin'.
Lookin' out the window. That's a paddlin'.
Staring at my sandals. That's a padddlin'.
Paddlin' the school canoe. Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'.

Euro_Kraut

Toulousain wrote: »

No way should a government impinge on parents' methods of disciplining their child.

But you have already admited there should be some boundaries i.e. not beating a child. If a parents feels that the best method of diciplining a child is to sexaully abuse them, i'm sure everybody here would agree the state should interfene. Simulary if they decided not to feed a child for a day as a way of punishing them I would guess most here would say that is wrong.

Some we do accept that the State does have some role to play - we simply disagree on the extent that it should.

I was raised that way, as were countless generations before me, and it did us no harm

This is interesting. Do historical parenting methods have much an impact on the levels of cruelty and violence perpetrated by future generations?

For example German kids in the last 1800's would have been brought up in a very strict and discipline environment. That generation went on to commit some of the most appalling acts of cruelty known to man.

Similarly, our grandparents generation were brought up in a environment where beatings and corporeal punishment were the norm. That generation went on to commit young children to institutions and turn and blind eye to horrendous abuse by a group of people they were raised to trust unquestionably.

tolosenc

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

If a parents feels that the best method of diciplining a child is to sexaully abuse them

Reductio ad absurdum.

For example German kids in the last 1800's would have been brought up in a very strict and discipline environment. That generation went on to commit some of the most appalling acts of cruelty known to man.

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Not doing your argument any favours.

Hells Belle

my mother got all her exercise chasing us with the nearest sundry household item, kept her fit at least, mind you we were cheeky feckers, I'd have beat the crap out of us!

On a serious note though where do you draw the line, a tap on the ar5e or a dig in the face, are these parameters set out? that'd be an interesting read. :eek:

Karl Hungus

Long Onion wrote: »

I heard that the phrase "rule of thumb" came from an old law which held that men could beat their wives as long as the stick used for the beating did not have a diameter greater than the man's thumb.

That's rubbish, rule of thumb never meant any such thing. It was not a rule in that sense at all, but as in using your thumb as a measurement; a ruler. From the knuckle of your thumb to the tip is roughly an inch. Rule of thumb pretty much means a rough measurement, or rough idea, estimation, something that's not quite accurate but reliable.

This old wives tale about it having something to do with wife beating is nothing but a myth, commonplace nonsense.

Euro_Kraut

Toulousain wrote: »

By definition, a leading question is one which has two answers: yes or no. Perfect for a referendum.

Are you serious? Its hard to tell on AH.

A referendum question should be neutral not leading.

Long Onion

Karl Hungus wrote: »

That's rubbish, rule of thumb never meant any such thing. It was not a rule in that sense at all, but as in using your thumb as a measurement; a ruler. From the knuckle of your thumb to the tip is roughly an inch. Rule of thumb pretty much means a rough measurement, or rough idea, estimation, something that's not quite accurate but reliable.

This old wives tale about it having something to do with wife beating is nothing but a myth, commonplace nonsense.

Thanks very much for putting that to bed but I kinda preferred the other version, can it be true as well?


Please?


Pretty please?

Karl Hungus wrote: »

No

Fine!

*goes to Afghanistan*

Karl Hungus

No. I'm fighting the good fight against misinformation and silly things people believe in. I mock your beliefs. :pac:

Euro_Kraut

Toulousain, deal with my points rather than critising my arguement styles.

Stark

Toulousain wrote: »

Reductio ad absurdum.

Doesn't apply here since Euro_Kraut is arguing for boundaries to be drawn between the reasonable and the absurd, as opposed to using the absurd to argue against the reasonable.

Euro_Kraut

Karl Hungus wrote: »

No. I'm fighting the good fight against misinformation and silly things people believe in. I mock your beliefs. :pac:

The Rule of Thumb actually refers the historical period 1671-1684 when King Thumb reign in Sweden.

Idjit

I dont think smacking children is a good way of discipling them, its just the easiest. I was smacked as a kid and all it taught me was to fear those doing it instead of respecting them. There are more effective ways to discipline children, though it does take more hard work and time.

brummytom

I think smackings fine - I was and it never did me any harm.

My little brother wasn't at all (my mom was/is dead set against it) and he's a horrible, cheeky little twat who thinks he can get away with anything.

There's a big difference between a bit of physical discipline and full-on 'beating'

Long Onion

Karl Hungus wrote: »

No. I'm fighting the good fight against misinformation and silly things people believe in. I mock your beliefs. :pac:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/rule-of-thumb.html

I do know that it's mostly rubbage, but it's more interesting than a brewers action do ya think?

El Siglo

I can see this thread going on for about 15 pages, with an indepth argument between a minimum of 6 posters, and it'll eventually devolve into a clerical sex abuse debate between 'liberals' and 'fascists', followed by at least two people being banned.:pac:

stovelid

I was smacked as a kid as I was pretty wild.

Often quite hard and I know my Mum regrets it now. I think it was very much more child-rearing orthodoxy in the spare the rod fashion and more people were afraid to buck the trend then.

I don't really object to very mild physical chastisement, like a smack on the arse.

That said, I couldn't really see myself ever doing that to my own child in the future, and if I did, I would see it as a parenting lapse on my behalf.

As for smacking a child hard: don't agree.

Smacking a child in public: even worse.

And as for taking a belt (or likewise) to a child in that cliched giving a wuppin fashion: assualt.

Didn't vote btw: the options are too black and white.

procure11

brummytom wrote: »

I think smackings fine - I was and it never did me any harm.

My little brother wasn't at all (my mom was/is dead set against it) and he's a horrible, cheeky little twat who thinks he can get away with anything.

There's a big difference between a bit of physical discipline and full-on 'beating'

I think you are quite right ...but in most cases it becomes habitual,as someone rightly pointed out it is the easiest way of correction and it is mostly done on impulse hence it is reactionary rather than a proactiove form of discipline.

procure11

El Siglo wrote: »

I can see this thread going on for about 15 pages, with an indepth argument between a minimum of 6 posters, and it'll eventually devolve into a clerical sex abuse debate between 'liberals' and 'fascists', followed by at least two people being banned.:pac:

you point been?

We can either discuss it now or postpone it...either way it has to be discussed!

laoisforliam

Ah the good old wooden spoon, warmed me up on many a winters day!!

El Siglo

Just thinking there, this debate seems pretty pointless considering parents (a lot of the ones I see anyway) don't even bother raising their children, let alone discipline them for their misbehaviour. If some parents out there weren't such wasters and actually tried to raise their children, then we wouldn't need to have this conversation. Children, really don't need to be hit, it's a matter of the parent actually doing their job as parents and teaching them manners etc... Seriously, parents would sooner defend the misbehaviour of their sprogs than actually discipline them for their actions.

El Siglo

procure11 wrote: »

you point been?

We can either discuss it now or postpone it...either way it has to be discussed!

I'm just saying, it's the way the thread will develop that's all. Discuss away to your heart's content!;)

shovelsfc

Wooden spoon is a great trick, frighten me when i was younger! only on the hand tho....woke me up alot..

RHunce

a little smack as never done anyone harm, it will teach you discipline and not to do it again, up to a certain age mind you, maybe 6/7

esharknz

MrsA wrote: »

Some of the worse child abuse cases I have ever heard of have come out of New Zealand, does anyone remember those poor little twins - Kahui I think might have been their surname. Then there was a little girl who died in a washing machine. Those parents were not just smacking their children - it was horiffic to read what went on.

Nia Glassie was the poor little girl's name who was subjected to horrific abuse.
The Kahui twins were killed a few years back too. I've read of 2 or 3 child killings in the past few weeks.

The main reason I voted 'No' in this referendum was concern that investigating more trivial cases of smacking would divert resources away from the children of these complete monsters. The law was brought in with the best of intentions, everyone understands that, but in no way helps with dealing with the child abuse problem NZ has.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

walshb

meglome wrote: »

I thinks there's a big difference between a kid getting a smack and getting the crap beaten out of them. I don't think parents should be penalised for a little smack but they should be hunted down and punished severely for the latter.

I think this is very reasonable position. I am personally anti assault, and let's be real here, it is against the law for any adult to strike any child or adult, the child, as long as it is not their own. See, this is illogical. If I was to smack someone else's child, I'd could be charged, but can do it to my own?

So, the law protects adults against assault or smacking or striking, whatever you want to call it, but the most vulnerable in our society are not protected against being struck or smacked.

I also see the difference between a mild and gentle smack as opposed to a parent who is just a damn tyrant and one who inflicts actual pain upon a child.
You know, I will never understand what would posses a grow adult to want to smack, or as some have said wallop
a small defenceless child, no mater the child has done. It's still way over the top....
And we all know, some of these children are getting smacked for the smallest little "error."

BTW, many many studies have shown that smacking is not the only way
to discipine or to teach right from wrong. I wasn't smacked and I grew up
perfectly okay with no major problems or trouble.

Some argue that when a parent resorts to smacking, they have lost control, and I know
that children do test ones patience, but it's still a sign of lost control

C.Rizzle

A good oul Shlap is what tey needs!!

Milky Moo

I am against smacking but then again I don't have kids and I think when you actually have to deal with them on a day to day basis alot of your idealistic notions go out the window.

I definitely don't think a small smack on the bottom should be outlawed,how can you monitor that!

The other day I was having a coffee watching the world go by,a child about 3-4 years old was on the escalator,she got to the top and she wasn't looking where she was going and fell.

The mom went ballastic dragged her up smacked her repeatedly,the child obviously started crying and she began shouting at her
''WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING!?!"
Dragged her along with her,stopped and slapped her again and was shouting at her as she went.

If a law was brought in that would be the sort of behaviour it should target.

I think you should have to attend mandatory parenting classes if you get charged with something like that.

Long Onion

I am deeply shocked by the number of parents on boards who have given their children smack.

ChocolateSauce

I also have two minds on it. One, it is illegal to smack an adult, but okay to smack a child?

Two: I'm not sure I'm prepared to tell other parents how to raise their children. I wouldn't be too happy if a morally outraged conservative tried to make something I considered fine illegal.

Hurting the child is one thing, but a proper smack on the hand doesn't actually hurt, it just upsets them and lets them know they've done something wrong. I should know.:pac: