Questioning my athesim (again)

studiorat

Ok, I being a dyed in the wool atheist am naturally sceptical about any religious or spiritual hocus pocus. Frankly I don't believe a word of it, ghosts and goblins the lot...

So how come the Amityville horror film on network two last night scared the dickens out of me?

And I couldn't sleep with the light off for a week after watching The Ring.



Do any of the other atheist brethern out there have this issue?

Overblood

Are you a girl?

bluefinger

Me too. An atheist for as long as i remember, but i fcuking love the Omen, the exorcist, Rosemary's Baby etc. Movies which i suppose i shouldn't really buy into because of the premise(s).

Imo the atmosphere, music (especially the Ave Satani in the Omen), and fright factor are big reasons for liking these movies. Also, a huge amount of movies have some sort of religous theme running through them, eg the Matrix, Star Wars etc. Not wishing to sound too wanky they all use cultural symbols and archetypes that we can respond too.

JimiTime

studiorat wrote: »

Ok, I being a dyed in the wool atheist am naturally sceptical about any religious or spiritual hocus pocus. Frankly I don't believe a word of it, ghosts and goblins the lot...

So how come the Amityville horror film on network two last night scared the dickens out of me?

And I couldn't sleep with the light off for a week after watching The Ring.



Do any of the other atheist brethern out there have this issue?

Yer just a blouse, thats all:pac::) Seriously though, what you wanna do, is book yourself a driving tour of the Australian outback, then watch 'Wolf Creek'.

RealEstateKing

are hard-wired to seek transcendence - as pattern seeking animals, we are always looking for a pattern that will explain 'the ultimate nature of things' - Our brain contains these archetypes and it usually gives us immense satisfaction/thrills to activate them.

A horror film is entertaining precisely because it is able to take you back to a primitive state of mind - one that believes in demons, "pure evil", spirits and good guys and bad guys. It is precisely the power of this primitive brain that leads people to follow things like religion, fascism, cults or patriotism. It is inherently more satisfying and enjoyable than thinking like an adult is.

We all of us have these primitive desires, whether we are atheist or not. The safest thing for society is that we keep them contained within horror films, football matches, movies, rock concerts and benign religion. The vast majority of people in any given industrial economy have a job they dont like or take any meaning from - that is simply the nature of life if you want to live in a developed society - most people have to do small parts of larger enterprises, and thus feel little sense of ownership or satisfaction in what they do 80 per cent of the time.

Preaching atheism to these people is pointless, as atheism holds no magic for them, as it is a philosophy which does not deny reality. Facing reality, unfortunately is not possible for most people: You will always find that 100% of Bolivian peasants are religious - not because religion is true, but precisely because it isn't - the reality of these peoples lives is not something that permits scrutiny.

Therefore, athiesm is not a philosophy that will ever hold sway over more than a small percentage of the population, unless your nation exists at a level of development that makes comfort and fullfillment possible for a majority of the population (e.g. Sweden, Denmark) . No amount of consciousness-raising, lectures, teaching or well-written books will change that reality.

Karl Marx rightly described religion as 'the opium of the people', as well as (less quoted), the 'heart of a heartless world'. In other words, most people need fairy stories to get them through a life which cannot staisfy them in itself. We're it possible to remove those conditions, Athiesm might be a viable philosophy - it is of course looking increasingly doubtful in an overpopulated, warming-up world that this will ever be the case.

Therefore the thing we should probably be shooting for is not to aim to convince any significant number of people to be atheist, but to try and convince them to adopt the sort of religion that is largely harmless - nice cosy tea-and-biscuits, Beardy Rowan Williams, never-mind-the-gay-vicar Anglicanism, for example, or general wooly-minded hippy psuedo-Buddhist nonsense.

Of course it's core beliefs are falsehoods, but what harm would that really do? Its the type of falsehoods that lead people to beat the **** of children and blow themselves up in market squares that we ought to be worried about. If the people need their illusions let them be harmless ones.

Hand me the DVD of The Exorcist, The Ireland Football strip, and The concert tickets, please, Ill be off to indulge some harmless illusions.

Sam Vimes

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Preaching atheism to these people is pointless, as atheism holds no magic for them, as it is a philosophy which does not deny reality. Facing reality, unfortunately is not possible for most people: You will always find that 100% of Bolivian peasants are religious - not because religion is true, but precisely because it isn't - the reality of these peoples lives is not something that permits scrutiny.

I think you're right there. I saw a debate with Dawkins where a priest kept saying "atheism and science don't give you a moral code". He didn't quite seem to grasp that giving a moral code doesn't make christianity true

kiffer

because you are human. (ramming evolution in where ever we can...) Being afraid of things is a survival trait... Films play on things we find scary because being "pretend" afraid is fun and healthy... Especially in lives which are frankly devoid of many of the challenges which we faced as we developped.

You don't believe in ghasts, ghosts or goblins but stories can still trigger emotions... You know 'raptors have been extinct for sometime... But the thought that they might be out there, stalking you, learning to open doors, plotting against us like wolves with mad cow disease, violent and brutal, inexplicably larger than expected, honking like satan's geese, always drawing closer, closer and more deadly... They hunger for human flesh and soybeans! Then they pounce! Slash! Bite and it's all over bar the feasting on your entrails...


If it was a film about things you knew existed then it can be just as frightening, but at the end of the day you don't have the same luxury of being able to say... "at least there's no such thing as a serial killer"


Disclaimer: Please consider this post a late night post as I have yet to get home from last night... I was out dancing and I may have had a lot of Red Bull (or at least its nonunion mexican equivalent). The only thing worse than raptors would be zombie brontosaurus stuffed with fast undead skeletal velociraptors, wait no! Better worse, with the result of load of face huggers getting their claws on 'raptors... They charge through you defences and then disgorge... Then the Dinoriders charge in from stage left and defeat Mumra in his Deinonychus form...

Zombrex

Overblood wrote: »

Are you a girl?

rofl :pac:

Anywhoo, I don't think you need to believe in stuff to be scared while watching it in a movie. I had a traumatic time when I was about 11 after watching some of Aliens. I had nightmares for weeks, and only got around to finishing the full movie when I was 14. My most common nightmare is to be in an alien hive trying to escape.

Needless to say I don't think Gigiers (sic?) aliens exist.

ChocolateSauce

If you want something to scare the pants (or skirt, whichever :pac:) off you, try Martyrs. It's a French existential horror film and is the only horror film I've seen in the last 10 years to actually creep me out.

bluefinger

RealEstateKing wrote: »

are hard-wired to seek transcendence - as pattern seeking animals, we are always looking for a pattern that will explain 'the ultimate nature of things' - Our brain contains these archetypes and it usually gives us immense satisfaction/thrills to activate them.

A horror film is entertaining precisely because it is able to take you back to a primitive state of mind - one that believes in demons, "pure evil", spirits and good guys and bad guys. It is precisely the power of this primitive brain that leads people to follow things like religion, fascism, cults or patriotism. It is inherently more satisfying and enjoyable than thinking like an adult is.

We all of us have these primitive desires, whether we are atheist or not. The safest thing for society is that we keep them contained within horror films, football matches, movies, rock concerts and benign religion. The vast majority of people in any given industrial economy have a job they dont like or take any meaning from - that is simply the nature of life if you want to live in a developed society - most people have to do small parts of larger enterprises, and thus feel little sense of ownership or satisfaction in what they do 80 per cent of the time.

Preaching atheism to these people is pointless, as atheism holds no magic for them, as it is a philosophy which does not deny reality. Facing reality, unfortunately is not possible for most people: You will always find that 100% of Bolivian peasants are religious - not because religion is true, but precisely because it isn't - the reality of these peoples lives is not something that permits scrutiny.

Therefore, athiesm is not a philosophy that will ever hold sway over more than a small percentage of the population, unless your nation exists at a level of development that makes comfort and fullfillment possible for a majority of the population (e.g. Sweden, Denmark) . No amount of consciousness-raising, lectures, teaching or well-written books will change that reality.

Karl Marx rightly described religion as 'the opium of the people', as well as (less quoted), the 'heart of a heartless world'. In other words, most people need fairy stories to get them through a life which cannot staisfy them in itself. We're it possible to remove those conditions, Athiesm might be a viable philosophy - it is of course looking increasingly doubtful in an overpopulated, warming-up world that this will ever be the case.

Therefore the thing we should probably be shooting for is not to aim to convince any significant number of people to be atheist, but to try and convince them to adopt the sort of religion that is largely harmless - nice cosy tea-and-biscuits, Beardy Rowan Williams, never-mind-the-gay-vicar Anglicanism, for example, or general wooly-minded hippy psuedo-Buddhist nonsense.

Of course it's core beliefs are falsehoods, but what harm would that really do? Its the type of falsehoods that lead people to beat the **** of children and blow themselves up in market squares that we ought to be worried about. If the people need their illusions let them be harmless ones.

Hand me the DVD of The Exorcist, The Ireland Football strip, and The concert tickets, please, Ill be off to indulge some harmless illusions.

So... it's escapism.

Goduznt Xzst

studiorat wrote: »

So how come the Amityville horror film on network two last night scared the dickens out of me?

Is it a requisite of Atheism that scary movies no longer scare you?

Plus there is a difference between real fear and the fear induced from orchestrated scares in a film. I watch a lot of horrors, and while disturbing and scary it is more entertainment than anything.

True fear is being semi-sober, forgetting you're camping in grizzly territory and walking out in to the woods to take a 3am leak, then hearing, in the darkness, twigs crack under something very heavy and heavy grunts a few feet away. I was literally glued to the spot with fear and didn't move an inch until I started to hear the cracking twigs move away and out of ear shot.

Finding fresh bear droppings close to camp the next morning made me feel sick for the rest of the day.

No movie has ever come close to evoking those levels of fear in me.

stevejazzx

movies don't scare me!*








*with the brief exception of the daunting possibility of miss congeniality 3

marco_polo

I couldn't sleep for the whole night after seeing the Ring 2 in the cinema.

I kept having nightmares about what else I could have bought with my tenner.

Boom boom. :pac:

Rev Hellfire

stevejazzx wrote: »

movies don't scare me!*

You clearly haven't seen the star wars prequels.

RossFixxxed

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

You clearly haven't seen the star wars prequels.

Oh the horror.

It's the old, you don't mistake a burgaler for a shadow thing really isn't it? I don't believe but horror movies scare the bejaysus out of me! It taps into childhood fears, natural fears etc...

Dades

I just don't watch horror movies. They all freak me out.

The one image that haunts me the most is of two harmless little girls...



The above even more so than the "after" shot.

ChocolateSauce

"Anger Management" scared the hell out of me. Watching it felt as though I was suffering a temporary state of mental illness where I was being watched and everyone was out to get me.

seamus

A key feature in movie-making is a concept known as "suspension of disbelief". It is exactly what it says on the tin - there's an art to creating a piece of work which will cause the veiwer to disconnect their current notion of reality and immerse themselves in (and accept) the rules of the alternate reality presented on-screen. You mentally insert yourself into the film and this allows you to empathise with the characters and actually feel like you yourself have a personal investment in the storyline.

It's in fact been a key feature of storytelling since storytelling began, movies just have it a lot easier than the old seanchai because they can substitute language with images.

Movies which deal with very primal emotions such as fear and lust tend to draw you in much easier than others because these emotions are so very easily evoked in the human being.

5uspect

I love lots of movies/books/games/tv shows with supernatural elements.

Some do scare me, I know its all just fiction but I can still let my animal instincts enjoy the ride.

Sealclubber

seamus wrote: »

A key feature in movie-making is a concept known as "suspension of disbelief". It is exactly what it says on the tin - there's an art to creating a piece of work which will cause the veiwer to disconnect their current notion of reality and immerse themselves in (and accept) the rules of the alternate reality presented on-screen.

Exactly. I don't believe in gigantic transforming robots but I still enjoyed Transformers. I wish the second one never existed though.

chezzer

studiorat wrote: »

Ok, I being a dyed in the wool atheist am naturally sceptical about any religious or spiritual hocus pocus. Frankly I don't believe a word of it, ghosts and goblins the lot...

So how come the Amityville horror film on network two last night scared the dickens out of me?

And I couldn't sleep with the light off for a week after watching The Ring.



Do any of the other atheist brethern out there have this issue?

What film is the above from ?

studiorat

Sheez! Have to stop posting sober...

The above is from one of the Ring movies, the Ring 2 I suspect. I suppose it does tap into childhood fears. I mean I know the devil isn't going to jump up the toilet and bite me on the bum, but sometimes I still have the fear that he will.

5uspect

The Hollywood version of The Ring iirc.

The Mad Hatter

chezzer wrote: »

What film is the above from ?

The Ring. The American version, by the look of it.

fitz0

studiorat wrote: »

naturally sceptical about any religious or spiritual hocus pocus. Frankly I don't believe a word of it, ghosts and goblins the lot...

That doesn't mean you can't be scared by a horror film.

While not a big fan the films you mention, I read a lot of SciFi and Fantasy books, I like Lovecraftian horror, I like films such as Constantine, series like Supernatural and I can't wait for Legion. None of that means I'm any less dismissive of its validity in real life, but all these fantastical tales drawn from mythology and holy books show just how ridiculous the source material is.

Daftendirekt

While you're all on the subject of creepy things, has anyone seen the Mysterious Stranger clip on YouTube? It's based on an unfinished Mark Twain novella of the same name.

This creeps me out.

GrizzlyMan

studiorat wrote: »

Ok, I being a dyed in the wool atheist am naturally sceptical about any religious or spiritual hocus pocus. Frankly I don't believe a word of it, ghosts and goblins the lot...

So how come the Amityville horror film on network two last night scared the dickens out of me?

And I couldn't sleep with the light off for a week after watching The Ring.



Its not the Dead you should be afraid of its the Living! - Most films that freak me out are not ghosts, spirts, Satan etc but gore ones like Saw, Hostal, texas chainsaw, cant watch them too disturbing!!!

5uspect

Those films aren't scary they're just violent. A good scary film doesn't need supernatural elements or violence, just lot of atmosphere.

Zillah

Daftendirekt wrote: »

While you're all on the subject of creepy things, has anyone seen the Mysterious Stranger clip on YouTube? It's based on an unfinished Mark Twain novella of the same name.

This creeps me out.

I've always loved that clip.

"I didn't learn it at all..."

CDfm

Its natural to be afraid OP as you have no God to protect you in the case of Demonic Possession.

Mwahahahaha. He's behind you.......................

Seriously, though OP you have doubts about what you consider to be the known and unknown. You can't answer because you are not sure. Thats allowed.

Zillah

I think you'll find that religious people tend to get possessed far more than atheists.

studiorat

It's the suspense I believe that I can't handle. Knowing that something is going to jump out from behind the door or something. Like being scared of being scared if you will, the anticipation.

I found The Ring (american version) did have some scenes that were quite disturbing simply just considering the situations. Like the girl jumping out of the bath and grabbing the kid and his face just filled with fear, (remember that?) And something about that guy just facing the wall at the end of Blair Witch really freaked me out too. :eek:

CDfm

studiorat wrote: »

It's the suspense I believe that I can't handle. Knowing that something is going to jump out from behind the door or something. Like being scared of being scared if you will, the anticipation.

Rationally you can't explain it because you are afraid of the "supernatural" - but wouldn't you be able to handle a war movie or an execution movie?

Why then is your instinct to be afraid of the supernatural or the spiritual?

Zillah

CDfm wrote: »

Why then is your instinct to be afraid of the supernatural or the spiritual?

Because an execution one can understand. A war can be understood. But malignant powers that exist outside our comprehension? The malevolent unknown is what we fear most.

Largely because tigers can hide in the dark, of course.

CDfm

Atheists superstitious

studiorat

CDfm wrote: »

Why then is your instinct to be afraid of the supernatural or the spiritual?

I just don't like being startled. You know? BOO!

CDfm

studiorat wrote: »

I just don't like being startled. You know? BOO!

Do not go to Rathkeale and if you do- avoid looking at treestumps:D

Daftendirekt

studiorat wrote: »

I just don't like being startled. You know? BOO!

I don't think it's even necessarily about being startled. I think it's got more to do with atmosphere; it plays with the emotional rather than logical part of the brain.

This is true for any movie, not just supernatural movies though. For instance, when you watch something like the Shawshank Redemption, you care about the characters, even though you logically know they're just a bunch of paid actors. You intentionally suspend your disbelief, and let yourself get sucked in.

I'd imagine if you were to watch any supposedly scary film critically, you'd find it loses its impact. But what'd be the fun in that ?

CDfm

How can that be if you are spooked by it surely at some basis your self conscious feels there is something.

Its probably a fear of the unknown-in a " I just can't put my finger on it" way but nonetheless its the fear of not knowing.

Is it because you have some doubt or is it your inner wuss?

CerebralCortex

CDfm wrote: »

...self conscious feels there is something.

:pac: Don't ya mean sub concious?

CDfm wrote: »

Its probably a fear of the unknown-in a " I just can't put my finger on it" way

Which is the same thing as saying:

CDfm wrote: »

nonetheless its the fear of not knowing.

CDfm wrote: »

Is it because you have some doubt or is it your inner wuss?

Nope its the "self concious" feeling something. :pac:


I'm gonna take the rest of the evening off to laugh.

dvpower

Bit harsh? Reverted to using the R-complex today?

CerebralCortex

dvpower wrote: »

Bit harsh? Reverted to using the R-complex today?

I'm sure CDfm can handle it.

CDfm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm sure CDfm can handle it.

A freudian slip. An Atheist could get self conscious admitting to other Atheists being spooked by the supernatural.

You are all supposed to gather around and post stuff like "Hugs" and things like that.

Like the r-complex is a theory and hasn't been proven.Its just one explanation.

If its good enough for Alice Cooper Studiorat there might be something to it.:D

Nodin

studiorat wrote: »

Ok, I being a dyed in the wool atheist am naturally sceptical about any religious or spiritual hocus pocus. Frankly I don't believe a word of it, ghosts and goblins the lot...

So how come the Amityville horror film on network two last night scared the dickens out of me?

And I couldn't sleep with the light off for a week after watching The Ring.

Do any of the other atheist brethern out there have this issue?

Given the usual elements - dramatic music, things jumping out, sudden loud noises - its not at all suprising, and yes, it would have the same effect on me (though not the lack of sleep, lights on business).

I might point out that when a horror, or indeed any movie comes out in the states, check if its a remake of a 'Foriegn movie' and watch the original instead of the remake. You'll be pleasantly suprised most of the time.

patrickthomas

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Is it a requisite of Atheism that scary movies no longer scare you?

Plus there is a difference between real fear and the fear induced from orchestrated scares in a film. I watch a lot of horrors, and while disturbing and scary it is more entertainment than anything.

True fear is being semi-sober, forgetting you're camping in grizzly territory and walking out in to the woods to take a 3am leak, then hearing, in the darkness, twigs crack under something very heavy and heavy grunts a few feet away. I was literally glued to the spot with fear and didn't move an inch until I started to hear the cracking twigs move away and out of ear shot.

Finding fresh bear droppings close to camp the next morning made me feel sick for the rest of the day.

No movie has ever come close to evoking those levels of fear in me.

I can relate to this story, real fear is deep inside ya. Have not had a movie or a sound at night scare me for a long time, think a lot of that goes away with age and experiencing real fear. I know what it is like to believe 100% that I am about to die, first time it happened I prayed, yeah that old chestnut no atheists in foxholes, but the second time, no prayers at all, pure atheist.

Data_Quest

RealEstateKing wrote: »

A horror film is entertaining precisely because it is able to take you back to a primitive state of mind - one that believes in demons, "pure evil", spirits and good guys and bad guys. It is precisely the power of this primitive brain that leads people to follow things like religion, fascism, cults or patriotism. It is inherently more satisfying and enjoyable than thinking like an adult is.


Therefore, athiesm is not a philosophy that will ever hold sway over more than a small percentage of the population, unless your nation exists at a level of development that makes comfort and fullfillment possible for a majority of the population (e.g. Sweden, Denmark).

Great post I couldn't agree more.

Talking about horror movies where the main character is brought back to a primitive state of mind and starts to believe in demons and pure evil ... I would reccomend Roman Polanski's Rosemary's Baby.

Your 2nd paragraph quoted above caused me to investigate what are the levels of atheism in Europe:

The % population that declare themselves as having no religion is only 4% in the Republic of Ireland according to the last Irish Census 2006. In the 2005 Europewide Eurobarometer report 73% of Irish people surveyed believed in a God whereas only 4% did not believe in "any sort of spirit, God or life force" (remarkable agreement with the Irish Census). In the last ROI census 87% declared themselves to be Catholic so if the Eurobarometer survey is correct there is a small but significant % of Irish Catholics who do not believe in God?

For Denmark it was 31% that believe in God and in Sweden it was only 23%.

CDfm

LOts of people are frightened by the supernatural

Frightened girl dies after ghost prank

TNN 27 August 2009, 02:40am IST Print [URL="javascript:openWindowmail('/mail/4938810.cms');"]Email[/URL] Discuss [URL="javascript:void(0)"]Bookmark/Share[/URL] [URL="javascript:showdivlayer('4938810','t','close');"]Save[/URL] Comment Text Size: |

BEHRAMPORE: A prank turned horribly wrong in a Murshidabad school hostel on Wednesday. A Class V girl suffered a cardiac arrest and died after
being frightened by some youths dressed up as ghosts during a power cut in the evening. Five other girls were also taken ill.

Police said that around 8 pm, when the area was in the grip of a power cut, five youths scaled the wall of the Itar Santhal High School hostel in Murshidabad's Nabagram. The youths, wearing masks, slipped into the premises and knocked on the door. When the girls did not open the door, they peeped in through a window and made howling noises.

Most of the girls were frightened, said sources. Pratima Baske fell unconscious and was rushed to a local hospital. She was declared dead on arrival. Five girls were hospitalised.

Probe revealed that Pratima had suffered a cardiac arrest. School authorities suspect the pranksters are local residents. "The boys' and the girls' hostel are divided by a high wall. Such an incident has never happened," said headmaster Arindam Mondal. "The girls were frightened by the masked faces."

Police are searching for the pranksters.

CDfm

Data_Quest wrote: »

Great post I couldn't agree more.



The % population that declare themselves as having no religion is only 4% in the Republic of Ireland according to the last Irish Census 2006. In the 2005 Europewide Eurobarometer report 73% of Irish people surveyed believed in a God whereas only 4% did not believe in "any sort of spirit, God or life force" (remarkable agreement with the Irish Census). In the last ROI census 87% declared themselves to be Catholic so if the Eurobarometer survey

In fairness - Eurobarometer is a survey and not a Census.

GrizzlyMan

'The % population that declare themselves as having no religion is only 4% in the Republic of Ireland according to the last Irish Census 2006. '

wow:eek: I would have thought way more than that, although in my opinion I think alot of people dont even think about religion in there day to day lives but when asked they say oh yeah I believe in.......(whatever the religion is) because its not that popular to say to someone in ireland I dont believe in God I believe in Evolution etc. - thats only from my experiances!

CDfm

GrizzlyMan wrote: »

I dont believe in God I believe in Evolution etc. - thats only from my experiances!

And you have experienced evoloution?

A belief in God is something either you have or haven't. You either believe or you don't. Its something that cannot be proved or disproved with science or the laws of physics etc as we know it.

But then this planet that defies the laws of physics shouldnt exist either.

Planet found that defies the laws of physics

By Steve Connor, Science Editor

Thursday, 27 August 2009


It's the planet that really shouldn't exist – or at least not for long. It is 10 times the size of Jupiter, orbits its own star in under 24 hours and should soon be spiralling into the surface of its searingly-hot sun.
Under the laws of physics, planet WASP-18b orbiting a star 1,000 light years from Earth is too big and too close to its sun for comfort. The tidal interactions between the two massive objects should be pulling them together in a deadly gravitational embrace.
British astronomers say they have made a highly unusual planetary discovery in finding WASP-18b. Either they just happened to have witnessed an exceptionally rare event that they have likened to winning the lottery, or they do not understand the tidal forces affecting distant planets beyond our own solar system.

Dades

Data_Quest wrote: »

In the last ROI census 87% declared themselves to be Catholic

You mean in the last ROI where mammy filled in "catholic" for everyone in the household regardless of whether they had Buddhas, or Pentacles or FSMs adorning their bedrooms...