Back Workout Question

O.P.H

My back workout is as follows -

- pendlay rows (3 sets of 5 reps)

- bent over barbell rows (3 of 5)

- deadlift (3 of 5)

- cable pull downs using pull up grip (3 of 8)

- cable pull downs using chin up grip (3 of 8)

(in total 15 sets so not too much or too little)

each set is to failure and I lower the weight slightly when needed to get the full reps


Anyway, I suppose I'm ok with the routine just want to know if its pointless doing pendlay and bent over rows together, are they too similar, would you put somethin else in instead of one.

Also I leave deadlift till third cause I like to warm up well for it and don't wanna run out of weights, I train at home, any prob in doin this.

Is there anythin I could do better with this workout, any other good back exercises I'm forgetting or am I grand with this.

Al_Fernz

You might want to look at throwing some chins or pull-ups in there.

Roper

where is the lower back/glute assistance stuff?

Also surely this isn't in the same session?

itsallaboutheL

Maybe

Pendlays on bench day;

Deadlifts first on back day.

Some GMs or RDLs or the Like

One PullDown Variation

EDIT: if you're mad for exercises maybe a DB Row instead of one of the pulldowns.

What weight and height are you??

O.P.H

Roper wrote: »

where is the lower back/glute assistance stuff?

Also surely this isn't in the same session?

Ya this is the one session, I feel like I'm gonna get told off

My split is -

chest / biceps (mon)

back (weds)

shoulders / triceps (fri)

legs (sat)

This split has been workin well for me.

I don't think my back workout is by any means too much and can't do enough pull ups or chin ups yet to add them in. The only one I'm not too sure of is the pendlay.

neilmct.com

taken from an alwyn cosgrove email - personally myself and my clients tend to work off an upper lower or full body routine with very little in the way of bodypart splits - i dont rule them out completly but for many its best to work on say upper lower which makes it easier to have a balanced workout ie horizontal push super setted with horizontal pull etc

---

Q: I read your last tmuscle interview, and the blog post on training frequency. I am still caught up in the fact that a lot of people tell me to train each body part once per week. Why don't you recommend that? It seems to contradict what the bodybuilding magazines say... convince me otherwise...

A: My job as a coach is to deliver the best possible results to our members. My job as a writer is to deliver the best possible authentic information, based upon what we actually do in my gym.

It's not up to me to convince you of anything -- I am just being authentic and telling you what I truly believe based on what I have learned over the years.

If you were a member - I'd deliver the best programs that we can based upon what we see working over and over again. As a writer - I only write about or recommend what I've seen to work with real people in our facility. Unlike most personal trainers and gyms we actually keep a record of everything we do and track results over time.

Consider the fact that our gym currently sees the results of 400-600 workouts per week every week and has done for close to a decade. Now, if you're a typical trainer or trainee - you likely don't have client numbers even approximating that to teach you what works. So you have to look at gyms like ours, and beyond that - the actual scientific research - to help give you an overall picture.

From a recent article :

In multiple studies, researchers at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston have reported that muscle-protein synthesis is elevated for up to 48 hours after a resistance-training session. So if you work out on Monday at 7 p.m., your body is in muscle-growth mode until Wednesday at 7 p.m. After 48 hours, though, the biological stimulus for your body to build new muscle returns to normal.

In other words - training a muscle for optimal growth means we're looking at every 48 hours or so, not every 168 hours (once per week). This isn't opinion - it's science.

As practitioners we have to look at two things - our own experience, and what scientifically controlled studies show.

Another study:

McLester et al
Comparison of 1 Day and 3 Days Per Week of Equal-Volume Resistance Training in Experienced Subjects
Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2000, 14(3), 273-281

Showed that when subjects performed the same total amount of work per week (e.g. one set, three times per week vs, three sets once per week), that the three-times-per-week group gained more muscle and strength than the once per week group. These findings suggest that a higher frequency of resistance training, even when volume is held constant, produces superior gains in 1RM and muscle.

And finally:

Wernbom et al
The influence of frequency, intensity, volume and mode of strength training on whole muscle cross-sectional area in humans.
Sports Med. 2007;37(3):225-64.

Which was a review paper - basically looking at all the hypertrophy studies to date - and concluded that two times a week, with a strong tendency towards three times per week was optimal for hypertrophy.

Basically we start with how many days the client can commit to training - then we want to get the whole body exposed to a training stimulus ideally every 48 hours.

Again - I'm not interested in convincing people of anything.

But you have myself and my staff at Results Fitness (recently voted one of America's top ten gyms by Mens Health magazine Sept 2009), Jason Ferruggia's work, and an absolute abundance of scientific literature telling you one thing, and muscle magazines telling you something else...

So it's up to you. Which do you believe?

--
AC
PS - Make sure to check out the recent interview I did for Tmuscle HERE, and my most recent "Release the Brakes" article for the same site.
AlwynCosgrove.com

24420 Walnut street
Newhall, CA
91321
US

itsallaboutheL

neilmct.com wrote: »

..

It's too late, so i didn't really read all that but got the gist.

The OP has been around this forum long enough to make his mind up re: splits... TBH i don't think anyone here really advocates Bodybuilding splits, but even so if OP wants to do it it's his choice so we might as well answer his question/

neilmct.com

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

It's too late, so i didn't really read all that but got the gist.

The OP has been around this forum long enough to make his mind up re: splits... TBH i don't think anyone here really advocates Bodybuilding splits, but even so if OP wants to do it it's his choice so we might as well answer his question/

i think people still do splits because arnie did them - personally if i have 4 days per week 90% of the time its and upper lower - usually working off heavy and light day OR bilateral unilateral OR movement patterns

far better IMO

O.P.H

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

It's too late, so i didn't really read all that but got the gist.

The OP has been around this forum long enough to make his mind up re: splits... TBH i don't think anyone here really advocates Bodybuilding splits, but even so if OP wants to do it it's his choice so we might as well answer his question/

Translation = "if the retard wants to do it his way, just friggn let him"

Interesting point about the 48 hour muscle-protein synth and how full body workouts take more advantage of this. I dunno maybe the splits aint the way ta go but at least I know I'm in good frame of work and have been for over 5 weeks now and thats better than nothin. I can always change or change back just so long as I keep puttin the work in. I mean I just wonder how "measurable" the result from split or full body really are. I can't imagine I'd see a huge diff if I started full body. At the moment I'm eating well, training hard and seeing strength and size gain but maybe if I hit a wall I'll think about a change.

neilmct.com, maybe you have links to some full body workouts. Obviously Starting Strength is a good one but if you have any other recommendation.

itsallaboutheL

neilmct.com wrote: »

i think people still do splits because arnie did them - personally if i have 4 days per week 90% of the time its and upper lower - usually working off heavy and light day OR bilateral unilateral OR movement patterns

far better IMO

Did i say it wasn't?

Did OP say it wasn't?

He said his split is working for him currently....
so i say" fair enough, they're are better ways to go about it but i'll answer the question you asked".

billyhead

Folks,
This is my back routine. Can people offer opnions on what I should add or take out to work both the upper and Lower back. I d the exercise in the following order

Pull Ups-3 sets of 10

Deadlift-1 warm up set with light weights and then 3*8

Bent over BBell rows- 3 sets of 10

Pull downs- 3 sets of 8

One arm d-bell rows- 3 sets of 8-10 reps

Usually finish with seated or inverted rows of 4 sets to failure

neilmct.com

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Did i say it wasn't?

Did OP say it wasn't?

He said his split is working for him currently....
so i say" fair enough, they're are better ways to go about it but i'll answer the question you asked".

sorry, didnt mean to seem like i was disagreeing or anything there - just throwing in my 2 cents :-)

Roper

To answer OPH and billyhead at once-

Basically there is too much stuff going on all localised in the one area. If you're a fan of split routines, then you surely must have either:
a) spent at least 3-4 years under the bar and have found improvements on non-split routines plateauing
or
b) read too many bodybuilding books.

Deadlifting is a complex, technique heavy movement. Putting exercises like pull ups or rows in before it is what makes it dangerous, not the exercise itself. Deadlifts at IP are on one strength day and they come first after mobility work and warm ups. Putting them any later means that you're either risking injury or taking away from the effect. I'll just take OPH's routine as a sample.
My back workout is as follows -

- pendlay rows (3 sets of 5 reps)- Pendlays are a decent exercise, for your upper and mid back.

- bent over barbell rows (3 of 5)- so are barbell rows, but they're very similar to Pendlay rows. Why have two exercises in one session that give more or less the same effect?

- deadlift (3 of 5)- ... this should be first. Heavy compounds are your priority.

- cable pull downs using pull up grip (3 of 8)- Upper/mid back work mixed with lower back work stymies the training effect

- cable pull downs using chin up grip (3 of 8)- as above

(in total 15 sets so not too much or too little) way too much
each set is to failure and I lower the weight slightly when needed to get the full reps- I'm not sure what you mean here? Do you mean that you're just about squeezing out the last rep?

Ultimately, if I wanted a strong back, I would deadlift and so some assistance for that, and then on day 2 I would pull up or heavy pull down and do some assistance for that. Your routine just looks like several back exercise thrown together rather than having any structure or intent.

bigstar

Roper wrote: »

- cable pull downs using pull up grip (3 of 8)- Upper/mid back work mixed with lower back work stymies the training effect

i havent heard of this before. so doing deads and rows/chins in one workout is less efficient than deads and rows/chins on seperate days. one thing id be thinking is that bent over rows work both the mid and the lower back which is going to slow progress somewhat . or am i way off here.

Roper

bigstar wrote: »

i havent heard of this before. so doing deads and rows/chins in one workout is less efficient than deads and rows/chins on seperate days. one thing id be thinking is that bent over rows work both the mid and the lower back which is going to slow progress somewhat . or am i way off here.

Sorry not what I meant. I'll rephrase. If your major exercise in the session is the pull up, then working rows first will take away from the effect you want from the pull ups. Make more sense?