Dublin looking to change Qualifier System?!

bacon bites

"Dublin are considering submitting a motion to next year's Congress proposing that the All-Ireland football qualifier format be altered in order to aid provincial champions.
Despite winning the last five Leinster football titles, the Dubs have failed to progress further than the All-Ireland semi-finals, leading to suggestions that they would be better off taking the qualifier route in their quest for Sam Maguire.
It has been argued that the provincial champions are at a distinct disadvantage to qualifier teams because they haven't got the luxury of a second chance.

And now the qualifier issue is set to be discussed at the next meeting of the Dublin county board on 7 September.
'There is an anomaly there,' Dublin chairman Gerry Harrington said.
'If teams lose up to the provincial finals, they have a second chance, but if you win your province and then lose a quarter-final, you're out.'"
RTE.ie 19.08.09

Are they serious? If they were good enough it wouldn't be an issue. It's the same for everybody. Don't hear Mayo moaning about it. Cork and Tyrone are in the semis. Someone in Dublin needs a reality check......YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

dcr22B

You might want to get your facts straight before having a go at the Dubs!

Mickey Harte suggested this a long time ago but I guarantee you that it won't get through Congress.

Imposter

Everyone gets one shot at the provincials and one shot at the all-ireland. That seems fair to me!

I would completely reorganise the championships into a league basic but a tweak like this is not necessary.

dcr22B

Believe me there are loads of different permutations that people would like to instigated into the Championship.

premierstone

dcr22B wrote: »

You might want to get your facts straight before having a go at the Dubs!

Mickey Harte suggested this a long time ago but I guarantee you that it won't get through Congress.

Well unless they come up with a proposed alternative it just looks like sour grapes and as the OP mentioned avoiding the reality that the system has very little to do with Dublins failure to get to an AI final in 14 years, the system is the same for everyone and no amount of tweaking is going to alter the fact that currently Dublin are not at the required standard.

bacon bites

dcr22B wrote: »

You might want to get your facts straight before having a go at the Dubs!

Mickey Harte suggested this a long time ago but I guarantee you that it won't get through Congress.

Don't mean to be smart dcr, but what facts are not straight? I don't mean to be hopping off the Dubs. It just sounds like they are blaming the system, not their shortcomings against the likes of Tyrone or Kerry.
Plus, I doubt Mr. Harte was complaining last Sept!

dcr22B

bacon bites wrote: »

Don't mean to be smart dcr, but what facts are not straight? I don't mean to be hopping off the Dubs. It just sounds like they are blaming the system, not their shortcomings against the likes of Tyrone or Kerry.
Plus, I doubt Mr. Harte was complaining last Sept!

The fact that Mickey Harte had suggested this a few years back but of course the media will paint it out that it's the Dubs idea as we're trying to find something to blame for the fact that we are simply not good enough.

I genuinely believe the system is farcical when you see a team as abjectly poor as Meath were against the Dubs on June 7th get through to an All Ireland semi final.

The fact remains that the provincial system is pretty much a dead duck given that since the qualifier system was introduced in 2001, provincial champions have only won 50% of the AI titles.

By the way, I'm not deflecting the fact that we're just not good enough and we've a serious amount of rebuilding to do and the DCB are only highlighting what countless other county boards might be feeling as well.

Diabhal Beag

I agree with this completely. Ulster and Munster are grand and the Provincial champions always seem to get to the semi finals at least but Dublin,Galway and Mayo always struggle to get anywhere really. Changes are badly needed in fairness.


This is more than just a Dublin problem.

Diddler82

dcr22B wrote: »

The fact that Mickey Harte had suggested this a few years back but of course the media will paint it out that it's the Dubs idea as we're trying to find something to blame for the fact that we are simply not good enough.

I genuinely believe the system is farcical when you see a team as abjectly poor as Meath were against the Dubs on June 7th get through to an All Ireland semi final.

The fact remains that the provincial system is pretty much a dead duck given that since the qualifier system was introduced in 2001, provincial champions have only won 50% of the AI titles.

By the way, I'm not deflecting the fact that we're just not good enough and we've a serious amount of rebuilding to do and the DCB are only highlighting what countless other county boards might be feeling as well.

Im Meath so I just want to comment on this but not to get onto you!

Meath against Dublin this year was the worst display I have ever seen in the Green and Gold and I thought we were finished for a long time. However aside from the personnel and selections made on the line, the bottom line is we were sh1te!

What has happened is that gradually the teams we have been playing has improved and as they have improved so have we.

Waterford, Roscommon, Limerick, Mayo are all step ups in class each time and this has stood to us. Unfortunately for the Dubs what is happening is that they are playing a poor standard in Leinster with less games and getting caught cold against the bigger teams. We have had the chance and the games to indentify the problems, correct them and dare I say perfect them!

Something needs to be done but not what is being suggested above.

dcr22B

Diddler82 wrote: »

Im Meath so I just want to comment on this but not to get onto you!

Just to get back to you I'm not slating Meath either as they impressed me against Mayo and deserve to be in the semi final based on their steadily improving performances.

Maybe we'd be well served going "back door" next year if we get a few new players and get rid of some of the dead wood in the Dublin squad?

blackbelt

Leaving fairness aside,does the qualifiers really sort out the best from the good,the good from the average and the average from the poor?? Take Cork for example.When Kerry were winning All Irelands easily through the qualifiers,usually Cork were a stepping stone in a semi-final when previously back in June Kerry would have lost a Munster Final to Cork.

To me,when the AI is won by a qualifier team,it isn't won by a really great team.Take Armagh in 2005 when they beat Tyrone in the Ulster Final in Croke Park.2 months later in a semi-final they are beaten by the same side they beat with a pressure free kick from Canavan.Take the Cork v Kerry All Ireland series matches.Even the poor teams like Westmeath and Longford can beat each other once in a province and a qualifier and it is difficult to distinguish who is the better team?

The qualifiers have been great for the likes of Monaghan,Wicklow,Westmeath,Wexford,Meath,Kildare and even Longford over the years but there are 2 teams who have abused the system over the years and got the ultimate prize.Not that you can blame them for the using the system provided but I was saying from May to July that it is no accident that Kerry were playing badly.A few tough games in a complete knockout system in poor conditions really upped the mettle of Kerry this year and Tyrone last year.Provincial championships mean next to nothing nowadays.Attendances are down for provincial matches and for teams like Dublin,Galway and Mayo who are playing in weak provinces anyway,it is harder for them to find out where they can improve while Kerry,Cork and Ulster teams can find out a lot about themselves in tougher matches.

I am not surprised that Dublin have sought for an amendment to the system.Winning 5 Leinsters in a row has still done nothing for them and year in,year out the value of collecting the Delaney Cup seems to be less and less.Armagh can feel aggrieved also as well as Cork when they won Munster and went out to Kerry.Dara O Cinneide made a good point 2 weeks ago.He called provincial champions as stagnated teams.

The system needs to be changed.Some teams break themselves to win a province and get into the last 8.What consolation does a team have to be beaten once and have their season over by the eventual overall champions who were already beaten earlier.

Forget "champions league" formats and all that crap.I'd be more in favour of provincial winners getting a second chance in another qualifier round or else take the qualifier priveliges off those top teams who abuse the system.For example,a team is in a qualifier one year should be ineligible the next year or for that team wo eligible for a qualifier round should win their province (second chance).To me,a system like that seems more fair and puts a bigger emphasis into winning a province.

And no,I am not complaining because I am from Dublin and have been a victim of qualifier teams more often than not.It should be the same for Meath,Kildare,Sligo,Limerick or Antrim if they won their province.

Diddler82

dcr22B wrote: »

Just to get back to you I'm not slating Meath either as they impressed me against Mayo and deserve to be in the semi final based on their steadily improving performances.

Maybe we'd be well served going "back door" next year if we get a few new players and get rid of some of the dead wood in the Dublin squad?

Definitely so...more games gives every team more time to correct bad decisions performances etc.

I think Dublin are a good side that have been very unlucky, yes there is a few passengers but their SFC aside from Kerry I reckon is the most competitive in the country - they have so many more players at top level than any other County..this needs to be brought through to Inter-County level. How though, well thats for their county board to decide...so a huge population and number of clubs makes it a lot more difficult to get the right balance of players.

Dapos

Here we go again!

Can i ask one thing. Would ye consider Tyrone, Kerry and Cork the three best teams in the coutry (at football) at the moment? I would.

Would ye of considered them the best three at the start of the year? I would.

So out of the last four, we have the three best teams in the country and Meath. Plus Meath could very well beat the top three teams on any given day if they play well enough.

The system is not that flawed.

dcr22B

This is the best solution I feel:

- Bring the Qualifiers down to a penultimate round leaving 2 teams rather than the current 4.
- Provincial Finalists play each other in the Quarter Finals; the winners go into the semi finals, losers play the 2 teams from above in the final round of Qualifiers.
- The winners of this final qualifier round play the 2 Quarter Final winners in the semis, if teams had previously met at QF stage they can't meet again.
- It means we'd be guaranteed at least 2 Provincial Champions in the semi-final instead of none under the current system.

Would definitely provide a greater incentive on winning your province.

Atomic Pineapple

How about playing the Quarter final games over two legs?

To be honest theres no system that would give the provincial champions the same sort of run as a team in the Qualifiers.

I personally think the system is flawed but its very hard to come up with an improvement on it and I think its fairly good as it is

corny

draffodx wrote: »

To be honest theres no system that would give the provincial champions the same sort of run as a team in the Qualifiers.

I personally think the system is flawed but its very hard to come up with an improvement on it and I think its fairly good as it is

+1

LeoB

dcr22B wrote: »

This is the best solution I feel:

- Bring the Qualifiers down to a penultimate round leaving 2 teams rather than the current 4.
- Provincial Finalists play each other in the Quarter Finals; the winners go into the semi finals, losers play the 2 teams from above in the final round of Qualifiers.
- The winners of this final qualifier round play the 2 Quarter Final winners in the semis, if teams had previously met at QF stage they can't meet again.
- It means we'd be guaranteed at least 2 Provincial Champions in the semi-final instead of none under the current system.

Would definitely provide a greater incentive on winning your province.

Thats a good suggestion.
Diddler82 was fair in his summing up. There is a distinct advantage to teams coming throgh the qualifer (if they have the players to work with), Meath have so it gave Eamon and his backroom team the chance to iron out problrms.

B.T.W. Micky Harte voiced his concerns about the championship last year before they beat Dublin. Micky is very much a tradionilist when it comes to the G.A.A

grenache

bacon bites wrote: »

"Dublin are considering submitting a motion to next year's Congress proposing that the All-Ireland football qualifier format be altered in order to aid provincial champions.
Despite winning the last five Leinster football titles, the Dubs have failed to progress further than the All-Ireland semi-finals, leading to suggestions that they would be better off taking the qualifier route in their quest for Sam Maguire.
It has been argued that the provincial champions are at a distinct disadvantage to qualifier teams because they haven't got the luxury of a second chance.

And now the qualifier issue is set to be discussed at the next meeting of the Dublin county board on 7 September.
'There is an anomaly there,' Dublin chairman Gerry Harrington said.
'If teams lose up to the provincial finals, they have a second chance, but if you win your province and then lose a quarter-final, you're out.'"
RTE.ie 19.08.09

The only anomaly Gerry is how Dublin have not won a quarter final in 3 years, despite being Leinster champs for the last 5. You're not good enough Mr. Harrington, stop blaming the system and look at your own crop of footballers instead.

dcr22B

grenache wrote: »

The only anomaly Gerry is how Dublin have not won a quarter final in 3 years, despite being Leinster champs for the last 5. You're not good enough Mr. Harrington, stop blaming the system and look at your own crop of footballers instead.

In fairness grenache, you might want to find that we did win our quarter final in 2007, 0-18 to 0-14 against Derry.

blackbelt

grenache wrote: »

The only anomaly Gerry is how Dublin have not won a quarter final in 3 years, despite being Leinster champs for the last 5. You're not good enough Mr. Harrington, stop blaming the system and look at your own crop of footballers instead.

Although I agree that the system has to change,I also agree with this point.I think Gerry Harrington and the DCB should seriously consider who they appoint as managers and also take a look at the underage and minor structures.Simple fact is that Dublin haven't been winning anything of note in underage level for years.

While Tyrone were in the doldrums,they were rebuilding from minor and u-21 level and have now produced players like Cavanagh,Mulligan and O Neill.Pair them up with the experienced Brian Dooher and Peter Canavan and they were a good All Ireland winning team.

DCB need to take a leaf out of Tyrone's book.

robpurf

what needs doing is to move the calendar around to fit in a champions league style championship with the groups and all.having said that cant see any of the provinces giving up their championships

newmills

While the system maybe needs a shake up it is a bit unfair to say it plays to the advantage of kerry, tyrone or cork.
I don't believe any manager of any team is saying to his lads before a game "sure don't worry about winning cause the qualifiers will give us a chance to build ourselves"
It's all very well to get knocked out in your province but how would you feel going in to a draw where you could meet anyone - cork, kerry, tyrone etc?

grenache

dcr22B wrote: »

In fairness grenache, you might want to find that we did win our quarter final in 2007, 0-18 to 0-14 against Derry.

Yes i thinking that straight after i posted it. And you lost to Kerry in the semi by 2 points? I couldn't be arsed changing it!

rossie1977

would make no difference, dublin will still have to play kerry or tyrone at some stage and will again be destroyed, they are just not at the same level as those two, not even in the same ballpark at this present moment in time

its like us in roscommon complaining about the connaught set up we can beat sligo and leitrim, easily beat london and new york but every damn year we get hammered by mayo and galway, we need to change the system :rolleyes:

dublin should be trying to get to kerry and tyrones level instead of worrying about the system in place