What secure storage category are you in?

psomers

This is an online poll to ascertain how many people fall into the various catagories for firearm storage.

|Type and number of firearms| Secure accommodation standard
1 |One non-restricted shot-gun.| The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.
2 |One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms. |Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.
3 |Two restricted firearms, or more than three non-restricted firearms. | Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621.
4 |Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place. | In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Siochana. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities.

Sparks

Just changed the list to a table there psomers, it's a little easier to read that way.

No6

Whats the story with one restricted firearm plus two non restricted ones? Is that a category 2??

psomers

Thanks Sparks, I saw it jump into a table and thought what a brilliant job I did:( (only for a split secound) as I know you must of done it. The purpose of the query is that I am looking at a role in a Remote Alarm Monitoring organisation, where I believe they could market to people who own firearms, but I want to go back to them with figures / statistics. Secondly I want to know where are the best locations to target firearm owners. I personally have a shotgun but that is only for rodents therefore I do not subscribe to any firearm publications.

pajero2005

No6 wrote: »

Whats the story with one restricted firearm plus two non restricted ones? Is that a category 2??

Yeah No6. It states "3 or fewer non-restricted" I think

psomers

One restricted firearm and two shotguns would fall into catagory 2, which means that you would have to have each firearm stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.

Sparks

psomers wrote: »

The purpose of the query is that I am looking at a role in a Remote Alarm Monitoring organisation, where I believe they could market to people who own firearms, but I want to go back to them with figures / statistics. Secondly I want to know where are the best locations to target firearm owners.

Yeah, you'll find that's against the boards.ie site rules. We're not a free market research tool, thanks.
I'm leaving the poll up because it might be useful for ourselves to know, but so as you know, that kind of motive isn't well received. :mad:

No6

pajero2005 wrote: »

Yeah No6. It states "3 or fewer non-restricted" I think

Thats what I thought too but theres no "and" its one restricted "or" up to three non restricted?? What if you have one restricted "and" not "or" two unrestricted....see what i mean!!

psomers

No6 wrote: »

Thats what I thought too but theres no "and" its one restricted "or" up to three non restricted?? What if you have one restricted "and" not "or" two unrestricted....see what i mean!!

Suggest you read what Sparks put into the first item on the Shooting page, he details exactly the catagories.

rrpc

No6 wrote: »

Thats what I thought too but theres no "and" its one restricted "or" up to three non restricted?? What if you have one restricted "and" not "or" two unrestricted....see what i mean!!

But you just need to go up to the next level and see do you match that. In the case of one restricted and two non-restricted, clearly you don't fit into category three.

pajero2005

Might be worth while for anyone needing to get monitored alarms fitted to get together with people in the same boat and approach the company as a group. I'm sure ye could haggle a good discount out of them. It should make the cost less painful in the current econ.....blah blah blah!!!

Just an idea, thats all!:)

How about putting up a poll here for those needing one, get together via pm or e-mail. Nominate one person to get quotes or do it as a group and Robert's your mother's brother.

psomers

pajero2005 wrote: »

Might be worth while for anyone needing to get monitored alarms fitted to get together with people in the same boat and approach the company as a group. I'm sure ye could haggle a good discount out of them. It should make the cost less painful in the current econ.....blah blah blah!!!

Just an idea, thats all!:)

How about putting up a poll here for those needing one, get together via pm or e-mail. Nominate one person to get quotes or do it as a group and Robert's your mother's brother.

That is exactly what I was thinking but alas I now have an infraction at boards.ie because I breached the Forum Charter by accident. I could take this to a company and haggle for a 'boards shooting group' package but I reckon I would be in breach of the boards regulation so lets leave it as that.

Thanks Anyway

pajero2005

psomers wrote: »

That is exactly what I was thinking but alas I now have an infraction at boards.ie because I breached the Forum Charter by accident. I could take this to a company and haggle for a 'boards shooting group' package but I reckon I would be in breach of the boards regulation so lets leave it as that.

Thanks Anyway

To be fair, people would be better getting as many prices from different companies as possible and playing one off the other to bring prices down. Cash is king these days.

pajero2005

psomers wrote: »

Recent trip to Canada - I thought you would like these...

Nice, but they don't really relate to firearms storage or alarms!!

Try the hunting photo's thread. They'll fit right in there:D

Trojan911

psomers wrote: »

Secondly I want to know where are the best locations to target firearm owners.

And that's why I will not be participating.

pajero2005

Trojan911 wrote: »

And that's why I will not be participating.

Thats understandable Trojan911, but I think there is a way for people on here (with no connection with alarm companies) to save a few quid by teaming up. Confidential info such as address etc would only have to be disclosed to the alarm company, as is the way in any case.

Trojan911

pajero2005 wrote: »

Thats understandable Trojan911, but I think there is a way for people on here (with no connection with alarm companies) to save a few quid by teaming up. Confidential info such as address etc would only have to be disclosed to the alarm company, as is the way in any case.

And I wish them the best in their savings. Just be careful who you deal with.

psomers

Holly crap, I did not mean to start a debate nor have people thinking that this is a business opportunity chaser. Simply, I am a gun owner and allot of people in my local did not know how much they would have to pay per gun or how to separate restricted to non restricted. I came across this site under advisement from DoJ on the bases that you chaps know more about what is going on. I have no intention of looking for names / numbers etc etc, it was a simple thought process since as I was looking at a role with an alarm company, and yes IF I could secure more favorable rates for like minded firearm holders who do not want to pay incredible prices for security there is power in numbers. If I knew 100 people now who had to have GSM remote monitoring, I would if represented the group in identifying who can offer solutions at competitive prices so that we could collectively save money. And yes IF they had to market themselves is it not better to ask what publication they should advertise in as opposed to advertising in a local rag which they may never read.

The entire new firearm legislation is welcome to tighten who has firearms, but it is going to create allot of problems as well. Looking at statistics 65% of rural farmers neither have the internet nor know how to turn on a PC (this is not slating anybody off but it is a fact). Three local farmers were advised off the Garda to go online to find out about the new rates and forms as the Garda did not know what the story was. One farmer in question came down to the house to look up the form’s and was baffled with the form, he normally only pays €8 per gun. He has two shotguns and three riffles. His house is so remote that even if he had an alarm system no one would hear it, if he had remote monitoring, it takes at least 2 hour’s + for a Garda to turn up at his house (previous experience with an accident outside the house), therefore if he was robbed so too would the local bank, atm, grocer and probably me. The only difference is I have remote monitoring installed so if a mouse leaked outside the front door I can watch him online.

If my questions and reasons are not acceptable to you that’s your business, I was purely curious. Next time I try and do a good thing I know where not to come.

Half-cocked

Actually, I think the bigger shooting associations could look at doing some sort of deal with a security/alarm company for their members. Some sort of 10% off deal if you are a member type thing.

Probably never happen, but if all the shooting assocs teamed up together to get the best deal, there could be some serious discounts available.

Trojan911

And OP, I wish you the best as well.

Ps. Is a "Holly crap" painful? :eek:

Bananaman

Half-cocked wrote: »

if all the shooting assocs teamed up together

Ah bless........

Such innocence in one so youg.

B'Man

Trojan911

Half-cocked wrote: »

Actually, I think the bigger shooting associations could look at doing some sort of deal with a security/alarm company for their members. Some sort of 10% off deal if you are a member type thing.

Probably never happen, but if all the shooting assocs teamed up together to get the best deal, there could be some serious discounts available.

On the back of my NARGC card there is a 12.5% discount with Eircom phone watch.

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Ah bless........

Such innocence in one so youg.

B'Man

Youg ?

He's a worm?

Half-cocked

Bananaman wrote: »

Ah bless........

Such innocence in one so youg.

B'Man

That's why it was preceded with 'probably never happen'.

I suppose the 'probably' should have been a 'definitely';)

Half-cocked

rrpc wrote: »

Youg ?

He's a worm?

???????

rrpc

Half-cocked wrote: »

???????

http://www.2-spyware.com/remove-youg.html

G17

Half-cocked wrote: »

???????

An internet worm, not for fishing (phishing?). Confusing aint it!?

It's a geek joke. Like 127.0.0.1 on a welcome mat. It's only funny to I.T. people and maybe non I.T. people with Aspergers!

Half-cocked

OK, I've been enlightened. Can't say it's the most useful piece of info I learned today though.

rrpc

By the way there have been efforts by some associations to get a group price for alarm systems for their members.

It's had some success the last I heard but there are difficulties in getting a deal nationwide and for a set baseline. In other words, if you already have an alarm, or part alarm it's very hard to get an upgrade cost without knowing what exact equipment is installed and how old it is.

It's easier for a green field so to speak where there's no equipment installed, but yet again there are difficulties depending on the size of house, number of windows/doors etc.

It's not been given up on, just taking a bit more time than first envisaged.

That more useful?

psomers

rrpc wrote: »

By the way there have been efforts by some associations to get a group price for alarm systems for their members.

It's had some success the last I heard but there are difficulties in getting a deal nationwide and for a set baseline. In other words, if you already have an alarm, or part alarm it's very hard to get an upgrade cost without knowing what exact equipment is installed and how old it is.

It's easier for a green field so to speak where there's no equipment installed, but yet again there are difficulties depending on the size of house, number of windows/doors etc.

It's not been given up on, just taking a bit more time than first envisaged.

That more useful?

Thanks for that, I actually know 3 companies who do 'bespoke' upgrade systems, but they would not be interested unless there were sufficient numbers to justify. I agree 'Green Field' sites are better, but for the purpose of this POLL it is just for us in general to get an idea of how many on boards.ie fall into the different catagories. We know that the majority of Framers will not be on line as they are too busy harvesting, so the only ones that responded today would typically be in office jobs....

By the way, whats your opinion on smart arses taking the POLL out of context?? Does it have something to do with spyware / trojan's or the fact that they respond to everybody's boards and add nothing positive.

sfakiaman

Whats the story with one restricted And three unrestricted. As always I seem to fall between two stools (no smart ar%e remarks please). However I do have a gun safe and ammo safe in a walk in cupboard with a five lever mortice lock and monitored alarm so should be OK. The crazy thing about the alarm is I'm 45 minutes from a full-time Garda station.

rrpc

sfakiaman wrote: »

Whats the story with one restricted And three unrestricted. As always I seem to fall between two stools (no smart ar%e remarks please). However I do have a gun safe and ammo safe in a walk in cupboard with a five lever mortice lock and monitored alarm so should be OK. The crazy thing about the alarm is I'm 45 minutes from a full-time Garda station.

You'd fall into section three. Section two is 1R or 3UR so seeing as you have four, you're outside the scope of Section 2.

burke08

im applying for a o/u shotgun.

do i need to buy a gunsafe??

Cass

Type and number of firearms Secure accommodation standard
1 One non-restricted shot-gun.The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.


No. If its just the one gun (shotgun)

rrpc

burke08 wrote: »

im applying for a o/u shotgun.

do i need to buy a gunsafe??

If that's all you will have, then according to the list; no.

You will need a trigger lock though and keep the shottie disassembled when not in use.

Having said that, I would recommend a safe, even if only as somewhere to store things safely and keep ammo out of harms way.

riflehunter77

Lads am i been paranoid this poll is up only 12 hours and it has 589 views, i know its been busy on this forum at the moment with the change of licences and people looking for new info. But I thought there would of been more interest in other sections reguarding the new format and not on what secure storage category you come under. Maybe its just me but it seems a little odd.

jaycee

Its a bit premature discussing the levels of security needed without seeing the amended restricted list .

You run the risk of either ...

A. Thinking you need more security than you actually do.

OR..

B. Thinking you need less security than you actually do.

If you don't know for sure yet what is or is not restricted , how can you possibly calculate your requirements ?
Better I think to wait and see what rewrites it may contain before assuming anything and perhaps spending money unwisely.
It will be available soon enough and will avoid all the guesswork.

Potential 'group buy schemes' work best when there are fixed requirements across the board.
That won't be the case with alarm systems, but I'm sure someone might try to cash in on it anyway .

Perhaps a group buy might be possible with regard to basic approved gunsafes.
Apparently quite a lot of people will be surprised to find they need one at all.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

sfakiaman wrote: »

Whats the story with one restricted And three unrestricted. As always I seem to fall between two stools (no smart ar%e remarks please). However I do have a gun safe and ammo safe in a walk in cupboard with a five lever mortice lock and monitored alarm so should be OK. The crazy thing about the alarm is I'm 45 minutes from a full-time Garda station.

Sorry for the off topic, but how do you live so far from a full-time garda station? Do you mean driving or walking?

I don't actually understand the table too well

The gun I own is very secure, the parts are allways seperated. Bolt and magazines are always stored in a differant location. A key is needed to get into the gun room which is hidden, the gun safe is bolted to the wall. The room is not obvious either. We also have an alarm. Not too sure about the alarm though. Ammunition is stored in a seperate safe. The locks on the safe are the biggest I could get. You know the heavy round ones? I have a trigger lock too, but don't always use it.

I consider my gun to be in a pretty safe place.

psomers

rrpc wrote: »

By the way there have been efforts by some associations to get a group price for alarm systems for their members.

It's had some success the last I heard but there are difficulties in getting a deal nationwide and for a set baseline. In other words, if you already have an alarm, or part alarm it's very hard to get an upgrade cost without knowing what exact equipment is installed and how old it is.

It's easier for a green field so to speak where there's no equipment installed, but yet again there are difficulties depending on the size of house, number of windows/doors etc.

It's not been given up on, just taking a bit more time than first envisaged.

That more useful?

Cason Curved Honeycomb wrote: »

Sorry for the off topic, but how do you live so far from a full-time garda station? Do you mean driving or walking?

I don't actually understand the table too well

The gun I own is very secure, the parts are allways seperated. Bolt and magazines are always stored in a differant location. A key is needed to get into the gun room which is hidden, the gun safe is bolted to the wall. The room is not obvious either. We also have an alarm. Not too sure about the alarm though. Ammunition is stored in a seperate safe. The locks on the safe are the biggest I could get. You know the heavy round ones? I have a trigger lock too, but don't always use it.

I consider my gun to be in a pretty safe place.

Hi Cason Curved Honeycomb, I am not sure about sfakiaman, but where I live is 15 minutes away from the nearest Garda station, but they only open between 10am and 4pm (roughly), after that the district Garda station is 40 minutes away, but they do not patrol this area because they are understaffed. Should my neighbors alarm go off (1 mile away), I would have to be outside to hear it, and although they have eircom phonewatch on two occasions over the last year it took the Garda 5:15 to get to the house on the first, and on the second I rang them to let them know it was a false alarm (but their phone was not even on divert..

For myself, should the parameter of the house be disturbed, I get a text message on the phone where I can log onto the internet and physically see who the intruder is, to my horror on the last occasion it was a neighbors daughter and girlfriend who went into the back garden to use the hot tub. Security ahh

rrpc

jaycee wrote: »

Its a bit premature discussing the levels of security needed without seeing the amended restricted list .

You run the risk of either ...

A. Thinking you need more security than you actually do.

OR..

B. Thinking you need less security than you actually do.

If you don't know for sure yet what is or is not restricted , how can you possibly calculate your requirements ?
Better I think to wait and see what rewrites it may contain before assuming anything and perhaps spending money unwisely.
It will be available soon enough and will avoid all the guesswork.

For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs. For those with two or less potentially restricted firearms or none at all, the situation is quite clear.

Most importantly though is that you can only fill in the form with the information that you have to hand and currently SI 21 of 2008 is the one in force and not SI XXX of 2009.

But for at least 50% of the people here (according to the poll), restricted firearms don't come into it at all.

btw, I don't know what you mean by 'cashing in' on a group buy scheme for alarm installations. My understanding of these schemes is that you agree a specific price with X installer for your members and they get that rate when they sign up for an installation. The value goes straight to the member and the installer has a new market.

Darr

Hi Guys ,
I just managed to get a 20% discount for a major ( munster area) alarm supplier , fully approved and licensed ..
Our club has 100 + members so if we could do it .. some of the bigger clubs would Im sure be able to do better ..

its a recession guys .. contact your clubs and get them to do the calling . .. power in numbers .

Dar

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs.

Except that

• they haven't (all restricted licence owners are in the first group, but they're not the only people in that first group, as several posters here have shown, myself included);
• they are not allowed to do so by law (specifically section 5(a) of SI 295 of 2009); and
• the DoJ has already stated in writing that the onus for deciding if your firearm is restricted lies with the applicant, not the Gardai.

And if there's a change in the Restricted List imminent, we'd all be better off waiting; because otherwise you might get a nonrestricted licence now, and then the list changes and your licence becomes invalid and you have to reapply, possibly with a higher secure storage requirement.

Sparks

BTW, don't forget that for the higher end of the secure accomodation requirements, it's not enough to get the safe and alarm fitted, it must also be maintained by a certified technician. Which might mean you just call the guy back if it breaks, but might also mean that you need a service contract...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Except that

• they haven't (all restricted licence owners are in the first group, but they're not the only people in that first group, as several posters here have shown, myself included);

I said potentially restricted for a reason :rolleyes:

they are not allowed to do so by law (specifically section 5(a) of SI 295 of 2009); and
he DoJ has already stated in writing that the onus for deciding if your firearm is restricted lies with the applicant, not the Gardai.

ditto

And if there's a change in the Restricted List imminent, we'd all be better off waiting; because otherwise you might get a nonrestricted licence now, and then the list changes and your licence becomes invalid and you have to reapply, possibly with a higher secure storage requirement.

And I said that for almost 50% of people on here that's not the case as they are either unrestricted firearms owners under current legislation or they have less than the minimum required to jump to the next section.

Otherwise you are telling O/U shotgun owners etc. to wait for the SI before applying.

psomers

Hey Sparks (I now know why that's your name) and RRPC,

From previous POLL's that you have run would this POLL be quite relistic in the sence that it has 778 views yet only 64 people who have indicated which catagory they fall into? How many people subscribe to the Shooting section?

Rgs

P

Hagar

I'm sure lots of people like myself who used to shoot but don't currently read here a lot. Naturally we wouldn't vote. It's a very interesting forum even if you're not an active shooter.

jaycee

Originally Posted by rrpc
For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs.

Not True..
We can draw no conclusions from either the batchs of extensions or the date they are extended to in regard to non-restricted firearms.

I can personally vouch for one extension for the shortest period where the firearm in question is what would be classed as unrestricted under the existing and soon to be amended order.

The firearm is a bolt action remington 700 rifle , below .308 calibre. It is the only firearm the person in question owns. Therefore it is safe to conclude that much is speculation and possible confusing to people.
As Sparks said .. better to wait and see.

Most importantly though is that you can only fill in the form with the information that you have to hand and currently SI 21 of 2008 is the one in force and not SI XXX of 2009.

Again .. the onus is on the applicant to use the most accurate information available ,
so ... in the knowledge that that information is to be updated shortly it is best to wait rather than make a mistake.

But for at least 50% of the people here (according to the poll), restricted firearms don't come into it at all

The key phrases here are .. 'According to the poll ' ..and 'Restricted firearms' both based on something that we all know is being updated.

My understanding of these schemes is that you agree a specific price with X installer for your members and they get that rate when they sign up for an installation.

In practical terms , where there are many variables a fixed price is impossible. The level of security required, the amount of doors and windows in a house the recommendations of the crime prevention officer . and the conditions stipulated by either the Superintendent or the Chief Superintendent will vary from case to case.

The notion of a fixed price in these circumstances ,while well intentioned , is flawed. It would be as difficult as giving a fixed price for building a house , how many rooms ?, how many windows? how many doors.?

Percentage discounts commonly result in prices being 'padded' so that the theoretical 'saving' is almost nil .

Basic approved Gun safes on the other hand are a different matter because price comparisons are easily made.

rrpc

psomers wrote: »

Hey Sparks (I now know why that's your name) and RRPC,

From previous POLL's that you have run would this POLL be quite relistic in the sence that it has 778 views yet only 64 people who have indicated which catagory they fall into? How many people subscribe to the Shooting section?

Rgs

P

Everytime someone looks at this thread it's counted as a 'view'. So if you come back to it ten times, that's 10 views.

Understand?

Bananaman

psomers wrote: »

to my horror on the last occasion it was a neighbors daughter and girlfriend who went into the back garden to use the hot tub.

In that case an investment worth having.



B'Man

rrpc

jaycee wrote: »

Not True..
We can draw no conclusions from either the batchs of extensions or the date they are extended to in regard to non-restricted firearms.

Well we can because it's stated in the firearms act.

Granted there are going to be exceptions. The foibles of the firearms licensing system are well known and the errors on certs are legendary; such as IRLConor's 105mm Walther

Again .. the onus is on the applicant to use the most accurate information available ,
so ... in the knowledge that that information is to be updated shortly it is best to wait rather than make a mistake.

No, the onus is to get the application in, in time. Legally speaking we are still operating under the 2008 SI. As Sparks said, the onus is on the applicant to declare if his/her firearm is restricted and it's up to them to make that judgment based on the current legislation. For all we know, a new restricted SI could be months away regardless of what some people are saying here.

The key issue is whether your firearm is restricted or not at the time you fill in the form. And as I pointed out, the average O/U shottie is in level 1, but if you have a safe, you're covered up to level 2. People at the margins should be more careful, but again I think its safe to say that most people who are in level 4, won't be in level 3 if there is a new SI.

In practical terms , where there are many variables a fixed price is impossible. The level of security required, the amount of doors and windows in a house the recommendations of the crime prevention officer . and the conditions stipulated by either the Superintendent or the Chief Superintendent will vary from case to case.

That's quite true. You can still get an estimate for an alarm based on averages, with additional costs specified though.

So you get a price on your average semi-d with 5 downstairs windows, 6 upstairs windows and two doors with prices for additional windows or doors specified. Not too difficult at all.

Sparks

RRPC, if you have an extension that ends on 31/10/09, that tells you precisely nothing whatsoever about the restricted/non-restricted status of your firearm, for the same reason that not all dogs are poodles.

And the onus is on the applicant to apply for the correct licence type. The DoJ have specified that in writing in february 2008. And until we get a date for the new Restricted List (and it's existance is confirmed by the DoJ), or get an unofficial look at its contents at least, anyone applying may wind up having to redo their application, and possibly increase their security arrangements. It may be that we're not looking at too many people here, but we don't actually know that for sure, not yet.