Kidney names second training camp squad

Stev_o

IrishRugby.ie

Ireland Squad Confirmed For Limerick Camp
10 August 2009, 3:25 pm

By Editor
A 37-man panel has been announced for the next Ireland camp which is due to take place in Limerick from August 16-19. The Limerick camp is the second of three scheduled training camps to take place during July, August and September.

The first training camp, which took place in Belfast at the end of July, contained players who were involved in the summer tours to North America and the Churchill Cup during May and June as well as some senior players who were not included for the summer tours.

Several players from the Belfast training sessions have been retained for the upcoming camp, which will also see the return of members of the Ireland squad who toured with the British & Irish Lions in South Africa, as well as some England-based players.

Speaking ahead of the trip to Limerick, Ireland coach Declan Kidney said: "The Belfast camp was productive in that we were able to continue to work with the players and pick up where we left off from the summer tour and the Churchill Cup.
"A lot of players are being given an opportunity and from that point of view as well, we were happy with the spread of players we were in contact with in Belfast.

"The next camp will be slightly different as the players involved with the Lions tour come back into the fold, so it allows us to set some foundations for the coming season."

IRELAND SQUAD - LIMERICK TRAINING CAMP (August 16-19):

Neil Best (Northampton Saints)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Ian Dowling (Shannon/Munster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster)
John Hayes (Bruff/Munster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster)
Shane Horgan (Boyne/Leinster)
Shane Jennings (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Robert Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Fergus McFadden (UCD/Leinster)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester Tigers)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Mick O'Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Tomas O'Leary (Dolphin/Munster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)
Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians/Connacht)

Honestly i just like Horgans inclusion think his days are pretty much done imo.

On another note great to see Ferris back training.

Horgan is only 31 and was immence at the end of the season and was key to Leinster winning the Heinken cup,he is also still extremly fast as he showed in a couple of chases,we are too judgemental on age in Ireland.

I would prefer a 34 yr old Horgan lining out than an any age Dowling,you retain quality with age,pace being the main factor lost which hasnt affected Horgan.

Buckleys inclusion and Mike Ross's exclusion is beyong taking the piss.

Stev_o

Kolten Poor Oasis wrote: »

Horgan is only 31 and was immence at the end of the season and was key to Leinster winning the Heinken cup,he is also still extremly fast as he showed in a couple of chases,we are too judgemental on age in Ireland.

I would prefer a 34 yr old Horgan lining out than an any age Dowling,you retain quality with age,pace being the main factor lost which hasnt affected Horgan.

Buckleys inclusion and Mike Ross's exclusion is beyong taking the piss.

That's a bit of a over statement i don't think he contributed a "key" part to Leinster's HC victory though he was very mediocre for the whole campaign. But if he's there for experience for the other wingers fair enough but honestly id rather not see him at the RWC i think he'll be too old at the age of a 34 and will have lost alot of already depleting gas by then.

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

That's a bit of a over statement i don't think he contributed a "key" part to Leinster's HC victory though he was very mediocre for the whole campaign. But if he's there for experience for the other wingers fair enough but honestly id rather not see him at the RWC i think he'll be too old at the age of a 34 and will have lost alot of already depleting gas by then.

If he kept his pace and he is quite fast for an Irish winger would you still have him?

I would have him in a second tbh,I will admit he was utter rubbish for the start of the year and most of the season but he came into some really good form at the end and was excellent for the last 2 heineken cup games.He rises to the big occasion.

Stev_o

Kolten Poor Oasis wrote: »

If he kept his pace and he is quite fast for an Irish winger would you still have him?

I would have him in a second tbh,I will admit he was utter rubbish for the start of the year and most of the season but he came into some really good form at the end and was excellent for the last 2 heineken cup games.He rises to the big occasion.

Of course he has the head for it we all know that but being practically about it just can't see him at that age being the same pedigree from a few years ago you know? Like fair play to him he could of easily just said enough of this when he started to bench and was in bad form and he did come back and play well but in terms of the other wingers out there he needs imo much better form to justify his place on the team.

But again if he's there for sharing experience then that's great there's no better winger playing in Ireland that could teach these guys what goes on in international rugby.

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

Of course he has the head for it we all know that but being practically about it just can't see him at that age being the same pedigree from a few years ago you know? Like fair play to him he could of easily just said enough of this when he started to bench and was in bad form and he did come back and play well but in terms of the other wingers out there he needs imo much better form to justify his place on the team.

But again if he's there for sharing experience then that's great there's no better winger playing in Ireland that could teach these guys what goes on in international rugby.

Exactly,the 2 best number 14's we have are Bowe and Horgan,we are blessed to have 2 pretty good ones,I wouldnt discard one of them because of his age but as you say you cant tell when he will lose his speed.

[Jackass]

Horgan was poor for most of last season, but in the semi-final and final he was absolutely crucial. In that sense I think he did play a big part in us winning the Heineken Cup. Horgan on form is a devistating winger. Completely different style of player to Bowe, but an excellent option and is probably the best finisher in the Leinster and Ireland squad other than O'Driscoll. If he's on his feet within 5 or even 6 or 7 yards of the line he'll score regardless.

Props:
Buckley
Court
Hayes
Healy
Horan
Wilkinson

Hooker:
Cronin
Best
Flannery

Second Row:
Cullen
O'Callaghan
O'Connell
O'Driscoll
Toner

Backrow:
Best
Ferris
Heaslip
Jennings
Leamy
Wallace
Ryan

Scrum Half:
O'Leary
Stringer

Out Half:
O'Gara
Sexton
Wallace

Centre:
D'Arcy
McFadden
O'Driscoll
Earls

Back Three:
Bowe
Dowling
Fitzgerald
Horgan
Kearney
Murphy
Trimble

Reddan's exclusion is bizzare...especially with only 2 scrum halves in the squad. Decent squad though. I think Jennings inclussion shows he's a contendor in that backrow hopefully, and I don't think Buckley will be dropped just because Ross has come back to Ireland, they'll at least make him earn his place, but come 6 nations time he'll more than likely be in the squad ahead of Buckley.

Although not exactly a shock, the end of an era none the less, Malcom O'Kellys international days are no more. Shame Caldwell or Casey aren't there ahead of MOD though.

Nice to see Neil Nest included, I really rate him, would have been good to see Sean O'Brien get in there too.

McFadden being on the radar is a big plus also, he's some player, would love to see him capped. He deserves it after his Churchill Cup performances alone.

Chilli Con Kearney

Reddan is on his honeymoon so he's out for that reason.

Can't see why MOD is in ahead of a genuine class act in Casey.

yoursaviour1989

great to see o'leary back, thought he was out for another couple of months
would like to see another scrum-half in there

anonymous_joe

Stev_o wrote: »

That's a bit of a over statement i don't think he contributed a "key" part to Leinster's HC victory though he was very mediocre for the whole campaign. But if he's there for experience for the other wingers fair enough but honestly id rather not see him at the RWC i think he'll be too old at the age of a 34 and will have lost alot of already depleting gas by then.

In fairness to Shaggy, most Leinster fans haven't been too pleased with him as of late but the last few games were epic from him. The HC semi and final, as well as the Scarlets game in between were all epic. In fact, he looked positively scary in the Scarlets game. I know they're not great, but he's a class player.

ALH-06

anonymous_joe wrote: »

In fairness to Shaggy, most Leinster fans haven't been too pleased with him as of late but the last few games were epic from him. The HC semi and final, as well as the Scarlets game in between were all epic. In fact, he looked positively scary in the Scarlets game. I know they're not great, but he's a class player.

+1, Shaggy still has a lot to offer Irish rugby.

laugh

[Jackass] wrote: »

would have been good to see Sean O'Brien get in there too.

I think he is still injured.

danthefan

The only issue I'd have is there's only 1 fit SH in the squad.

bleg

I heard Kidney was going to move Leamy to SH!

Stev_o

bleg wrote: »

I heard Kidney was going to move Leamy to SH!

From 8 to 12 disgraceful stuff Kidney needs to give the guy a break :mad:!

Depp

Stev_o wrote: »

Honestly i just like Horgans inclusion think his days are pretty much done imo.

On another note great to see Ferris back training.

this cumin from an avid munster fan but i think hes playin reely well l8ely

chupacabra

Depp wrote: »

this cumin from an avid munster fan but i think hes playin reely well l8ely

Yeah i agree, Horgan has been a great servant for Irish rugby over the years, his experience alone will rub off positively on the younger guys there... and Marcus Horan.

Also it looks like this training camp will take place right after Puck Fair and right before The rose of tralee. Clever planning by the IRFU :pac:

Cuchulain

bleg wrote: »

I heard Kidney was going to move Leamy to SH!

Sorry April 1st was some time ago. This is a training camp so I wouldnt worry to much about exclusions.

However the exclusion of Toner and Cave is just moronic. We need these guys to gel with the squad as they are the future.

buck65

Yeah Horgan is world class, great season. Also where is Malcolm O Kelly? Sean O brien should definitely be in there as should Casey for that waste of time MOD, and Dowling WTF! Marcus Horan surely will be warming the bench this season when Cian Healy takes over. Ross should be there too, wtf Buckley that layabout, isn't it time he was put out to pasture.
Reddan should be there too -surely the honeymoon is over now - matter of time before he gets the no.9 jersey.

sock puppet

Cuchulain wrote: »

Sorry April 1st was some time ago. This is a training camp so I wouldnt worry to much about exclusions.

However the exclusion of Toner and Cave is just moronic. We need these guys to gel with the squad as they are the future.

Toner's in the squad. Do you mean Caldwell?

Crash

Toner's in there.

bamboozle

i'm beginning to think Mick O'Driscoll is a part time physio or perhaps an expert at holding tackling bags as i just dont see any rugby reason why he has made that squad ahead of better players his age such as Casey, or younger players such as Caldwell

Good to see Cronin & Wilkinson involved. Would have been a good chance for Paul O'Donoghue to get some exposure.

thehighground

bamboozle wrote: »

i'm beginning to think Mick O'Driscoll is a part time physio or perhaps an expert at holding tackling bags as i just dont see any rugby reason why he has made that squad ahead of better players his age such as Casey, or younger players such as Caldwell

Mick O'Driscoll can play Back Row and so is a better bench option. He also plays week-in-week-out with the majority of the Irish pack so can slot in very easily.

Fair point about the tackle bags though - its doubtful that either Casey or Caldwell will get ahead of POC & DOC in the pecking order - a situation that MOD is used to dealing with.

Edit: Meant to say backrow instead of 2nd row.

Cuchulain

sock puppet wrote: »

Toner's in the squad. Do you mean Caldwell?

Sorry yeah I meant Caldwell.

bamboozle

thehighground wrote: »

Mick O'Driscoll can play 2nd Row and so is a better bench option. He also plays week-in-week-out with the majority of the Irish pack so can slot in very easily.

Fair point about the tackle bags though - its doubtful that either Casey or Caldwell will get ahead of POC & DOC in the pecking order - a situation that MOD is used to dealing with.

O'Driscoll trains with the majority of the pack but rarely sees game time as POC and DOC are ahead of him. When he does start its generally in ML games when the Irish players are being rested. He's older than POC and the same age group as DOC so we'd expect to see these guys retiring at the same time, so why not realise he'll never be an option ahead of the current incumbents and look to the future and expose some younger 2nd rows to the international set-up.

Diom

Glad for the Connacht lads obviously. Cronin is a future starter for Ireland without a doubt, and Wilkinson is a fantastic scrummager, especially given his age. I personally would have preferred to have seen Carr in the squad but not surprised given he wasn't in the last one. He's a finisher, and Dowling despite his other qualities is not.
Plus it would be an incentive and would make sense to bring on the younger man who has the potential to get to international level.

I understand that people are excited by McFadden, but seriously one CC tourny does not a BOD make. He doesn't even get regular time with his club. Cave has to be the main contender at this stage. Unless we see a lot more of McFadden this year, which I hope we do.

thehighground

bamboozle wrote: »

O'Driscoll trains with the majority of the pack but rarely sees game time as POC and DOC are ahead of him. When he does start its generally in ML games when the Irish players are being rested. He's older than POC and the same age group as DOC so we'd expect to see these guys retiring at the same time, so why not realise he'll never be an option ahead of the current incumbents and look to the future and expose some younger 2nd rows to the international set-up.

Not a huge difference between MOD & Caldwell's gametime (both played 21 games for their Provinces - Caldwell 1472 mins, MOD 1250 mins). MOD frequently captains Munster (in Magners) who won the Magner's last year. Cullen (who is included) is probably a better option than Casey.

I think there is about 6-8 months difference in age between POC & DOC who are going to remain the starting locks for the forseeable future. The Ryans, Toners are the future - not Bob Casey (who is about a year younger than DOC) or Caldwell.

sock puppet

thehighground wrote: »

Not a huge difference between MOD & Caldwell's gametime (both played 21 games for their Provinces - Caldwell 1472 mins, MOD 1250 mins). MOD frequently captains Munster (in Magners) who won the Magner's last year. Cullen (who is included) is probably a better option than Casey.

I think there is about 6-8 months difference in age between POC & DOC who are going to remain the starting locks for the forseeable future. The Ryans, Toners are the future - not Bob Casey (who is about a year younger than DOC) or Caldwell.

Do you really think Caldwell will never make it? Toner's had a good season but I'm not sure if he'll ever be international standard.

thehighground

sock puppet wrote: »

Do you really think Caldwell will never make it? Toner's had a good season but I'm not sure if he'll ever be international standard.

I wouldn't write Caldwell off just yet, but I think Kidney is a very good judge of player. Unless they are of the class of a POC or BOD, anyone who wants to get into a Kidney team are going to have to be able to play in more than one position.

I'm only going on what Leinster fans say about Toner as I haven't seen an awful lot of him - though what I have seen of him he seems to lack aggression.

Stev_o

thehighground wrote: »

I wouldn't write Caldwell off just yet, but I think Kidney is a very good judge of player. Unless they are of the class of a POC or BOD, anyone who wants to get into a Kidney team are going to have to be able to play in more than one position.

I'm only going on what Leinster fans say about Toner as I haven't seen an awful lot of him - though what I have seen of him he seems to lack aggression.

Personally id prefer Caldwell more then Toner, much more physical of a player with great hands id think he'd fill the void when POC is unavailable considering the amount of ball he gets through.

subfreq

Can't wait to see Toner and Healy play with the first team. I think they really offer something that would improve Irelands game.

Crash

Toner is much more of a MOK style player than an agressive second row, which provided you have an aggressive partner is not as much of an issue. Being the joint tallest man in world rugby helps for lineouts too, and while he's reasonably heavy, he's not so heavy as to negate the advantage gained by his height.

McFadden for me, aside from his CC performance, has looked like a player who just knows how to finish. There may be gaps in his game, but he has the confidence to back himself at the drop of the hat and go for the white, which is great to see. Getting into two Ireland training camps will be fantastic experience for him now.

siltirocker

Cave, Keatley and Redden for me personally.

Heroditas

Fidge9 wrote: »

Can't see why MOD is in ahead of a genuine class act in Casey.

Casey has been invisible or at best, mediocre, any time he's played recently for an Irish representative side. Ideal for a Guinness Premiership slugfest where it's a series of rucks in the mud but absolutely useless when the pace picks up. He's too slow.

sock puppet

Heroditas wrote: »

Casey has been invisible or at best, mediocre, any time he's played recently for an Irish representative side. Ideal for a Guinness Premiership slugfest where it's a series of rucks in the mud but absolutely useless when the pace picks up. He's too slow.

Thank god we have sunny Wales, Scotland and Ireland in the ML:D

Stev_o

Crash wrote: »

McFadden for me, aside from his CC performance, has looked like a player who just knows how to finish. There may be gaps in his game, but he has the confidence to back himself at the drop of the hat and go for the white, which is great to see. Getting into two Ireland training camps will be fantastic experience for him now.

Just need him playing alot more regularly this year though, Leinster fans are adamant that he'll be playing the majority of ML games but i think he really should get a taste of HC level rugby and see how he gets on. He's just confined by the position he plays and who's in front of him.

Heroditas

sock puppet wrote: »

Thank god we have sunny Wales, Scotland and Ireland in the ML:D

I'm referring to international representative sides - not the representative provincial sides.
He was useless this summer. He wasn't exactly stellar last summer either.
Any time he's been given an Irish jersey in the last couple of seasons, despite playing lower standard opposition, he's been mediocre.
There's a reason he left Leinster to go to England - Cullen had displaced him and is a far better second row. Cullen is still better than him.

buck65

buck65 wrote: »

Yeah Horgan is world class, great season. Also where is Malcolm O Kelly? Sean O brien should definitely be in there as should Casey for that waste of time MOD, and Dowling WTF! Marcus Horan surely will be warming the bench this season when Cian Healy takes over. Ross should be there too, wtf Buckley that layabout, isn't it time he was put out to pasture.
Reddan should be there too -surely the honeymoon is over now - matter of time before he gets the no.9 jersey.

Damn right,100%

I dont know about Horan warming the bench though,I dont think he will even make the bench tbh.

sock puppet

Heroditas wrote: »

I'm referring to international representative sides - not the representative provincial sides.
He was useless this summer. He wasn't exactly stellar last summer either.
Any time he's been given an Irish jersey, despite playing lower standard opposition, he's been mediocre.
There's a reason he left Leinster to go to England - Cullen had displaced him and is a far better second row. Cullen is still better than him.

Ah I know. It's just you can hardly call the GP a muckfest considering the weather any time a team travels up to the Sportsground or Ravenhill.

Riskymove

sock puppet wrote: »

a muckfest .

I think you are seeing things....

SpAcEd OuT

What is Kidney's obsession with Mick O'Driscoll?

Caldwell in for Mick O'Driscoll, Fionn Carr in for Dowling, Ross in for Buckley are obvious choices. I hate to say this but this seems very much like Kidney is giving preference to his old mates.

Edit : No Reddan? What a joke

Riskymove

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Edit : No Reddan? What a joke

its already been mentioned that reddan is on honeymoon and thus not in the camp

danthefan

Kolten Poor Oasis wrote: »

Damn right,100%

I dont know about Horan warming the bench though,I dont think he will even make the bench tbh.

Neither Horan nor Healy are bench options as neither can play tighthead. I'd expect Horan to hang onto the shirt for now to be honest.

sm.org

danthefan wrote: »

Neither Horan nor Healy are bench options as neither can play tighthead. I'd expect Horan to hang onto the shirt for now to be honest.

Nail on head. They either start or are not in the 22.

A lot of the people who are calling for Ross's inclusion seem to be the same people who selected an all SA front row in their world xv.

twinytwo

buck65 wrote: »

Yeah Horgan is world class, great season. Also where is Malcolm O Kelly? Sean O brien should definitely be in there as should Casey for that waste of time MOD, and Dowling WTF! Marcus Horan surely will be warming the bench this season when Cian Healy takes over. Ross should be there too, wtf Buckley that layabout, isn't it time he was put out to pasture.
Reddan should be there too -surely the honeymoon is over now - matter of time before he gets the no.9 jersey.

He is injured alot maybe becasue of the size of the man... he is also the only prop we have that can demolish a ruck by himself

SpAcEd OuT

Riskymove wrote: »

its already been mentioned that reddan is on honeymoon and thus not in the camp

So was Best and hes back. They went away at the same time for their honeymoon and that was a month ago so surely they'd should both be home by now.

twinytwo

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

What is Kidney's obsession with Mick O'Driscoll?

Caldwell in for Mick O'Driscoll, Fionn Carr in for Dowling, Ross in for Buckley are obvious choices. I hate to say this but this seems very much like Kidney is giving preference to his old mates.

Edit : No Reddan? What a joke

Its funny that some people like yourself can doubt the choices of the man that has won 2 HC's and a grand slam....

Stev_o

twinytwo wrote: »

He is injured alot maybe becasue of the size of the man... he is also the only prop we have that can demolish a ruck by himself

Tbh i see what Kidney could be trying to do, a Buckley that could hold his weight in the scrum with Healy would be a terrifying pairing with ball hand probably one of the more mobile prop pairings around possibly. But if he can't hold the scrum get Ross is in, basics need to be completely solid first.

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

Tbh i see what Kidney could be trying to do, a Buckley that could hold his weight in the scrum with Healy would be a terrifying pairing with ball hand probably one of the more mobile prop pairings around possibly. But if he can't hold the scrum get Ross is in, basics need to be completely solid first.

eh buckley isnt very mobile at all,a scrum that demolishes opposition is a much more positiive aspect.

danthefan

I don't rate MOD but whinging about him being there and MOK or whoever not being there is pointless. Everyone who's going to be ans should be involved in the AIs is there and that is the important thing. For guys like Caldwell missing a 3 day camps doesn't matter a toss, it doesn't affect his future prospects at all.

SpAcEd OuT

twinytwo wrote: »

Its funny that some people like yourself can doubt the choices of the man that has won 2 HC's and a grand slam....

How so? De Villiers won a Lions series and World Cup yet he is not immune to criticism why is Kidney any different? Managers no matter what their accomplishments can make mistakes. EOS was one of the most successful managers in Irish history yet was still criticised nothing wrong with that.