NTL upgraded me to some super €80 a month package and charged me €20 for doing so

Zakalwe

Opened my bill today. It's €100 over normal. I've been disconnected from my broadband package (at a cost of €20) and I'm on a new package at €80 a month. They've also charging me €40 for the package I signed up for.

What the hell is going on here? I didn't agree to any of this! I tried calling today and of course got their infuriating robot and "our accounts department is currently closed...

FloatingVoter

Looks like they put you on this broadband extreme package I heard rumours about. Were you downloading over 250 gigs a month by any chance. You still should have been notified well in advance.

mehmeh12

What package were you on before? What download speeds did you get?

Zakalwe

I was on their 20Mb package. I'm at work now, so I'm not sure of the details exactly. I don't remember any calls. FFS, If I go €5 over my plan with O2 I get a text message. I didn't sign up for this crap and there is no way in hell I'm paying for it. I'm calling NTl first thing when I get up tomorrow. If this is not sorted I'm disconnecting, calling comreg and then Smart or some other broadband provider. I don't even watch TV.

I don't download that much at all. I grab the odd show, play some games, transfer files to and from work and that's about it.

mehmeh12

And judging from what you posted earlier i take it that their customer service is non existent?

tbh i was thinking of taking the chorus 10mb deal for BB but having read a lot a ****ty customer reviews i'm not so sure now.

FloatingVoter

There are rumours on the p2p thread that they're kicking big downloaders up to an extreme package for about €80 per month.
Probably a clerical error on their part...they're good at errors. Admitting to them is their problem.:rolleyes:

Tea_Bag

Yeah its called their "extreme package" that they dont advertise at all. no statistics about it, im guessing its a true unlimited cap package. they try to throw you onto it if you exceed your cap, but ive only heard of them doing it after several months of exceeding the 250gb by something like a further 200gb and sending out letters warning you not to exceed anymore.

mehmeh12

So their ultra package is not unlimited..but rather subject to a 250 GB download allowance? Isn't that false marketing?

Zakalwe

For 2 months, my bill is now €224

That's €124 for 2 months TV and Internet.

On top of that I'm charged a €20 "disconnect fee" and then another €80 for a month of this super awesome ultra broadband **** I didn't ask for. not only are they charging me €80 for a month of broadband, they're also charging me €40 for it at the regular rate. WTF

Zakalwe

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that my connection has been utter **** for the past week. Constant dropouts.

Tea_Bag

mehmeh12 wrote: »

So their ultra package is not unlimited..but rather subject to a 250 GB download allowance? Isn't that false marketing?

unfortunately not. unlimited allowance with a Fair Usage Policy, making it legal.

Tea_Bag

Zakalwe wrote: »

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that my connection has been utter **** for the past week. Constant dropouts.

is it possible that you downloaded more than 250gb for a few months in a row now? doesnt sound like it. i think your wireless has been hacked and someone is leeching off your internet.

mehmeh12

Zakalwe wrote: »

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that my connection has been utter **** for the past week. Constant dropouts.

But generally the BB is of good quality? can you download really big files say over 700mb fast?

Zakalwe

Tea_Bag wrote: »

is it possible that you downloaded more than 250gb for a few months in a row now? doesnt sound like it. i think your wireless has been hacked and someone is leeching off your internet.

Wireless is using WPA AFAIR. I very much doubt I've downloaded 250GB for several months. I don't even have that much disk space to put things

FloatingVoter

This might seem too bloody obvious...but does anyone else use the connection ie. girlfriend, kids etc. ?

Zakalwe

Flatmate, but she's pretty computer illiterate. All she does is stream radio shows through her laptop.

FloatingVoter

I was missing the point on this one. Even if somehow you're the god of movie downloading they still you a few nasty letters before starting on this course of action.
They have no right in this glorious economic climate to start stiffing customers like this without fair warning.
And its doubly wrong to single out someone for no reason at all.

Tea_Bag

mehmeh12 wrote: »

But generally the BB is of good quality? can you download really big files say over 700mb fast?

yes, the 20mb package is noramally always 19-20mb/s.

Zakalwe wrote: »

Wireless is using WPA AFAIR.

its still crackable by a persistent attacker. hard, but not impossible.

Zakalwe wrote: »

I very much doubt I've downloaded 250GB for several months. I don't even have that much disk space to put things

ok, what you need to do is phone UPC up and ask for them to show over the last few months how much you have downloaded/uploaded. only then we can make any real investigation to whats going on with your bandwidth.


do you or your flatmate torrent much? you could be uploading a torrent 24/7 thats chewing away at your cap, but i seriously doubt it.


how many PC's/xbox's/iphones/ps3's (basically anything that uses the internet) are there in the house? and what router do you have? it should be a Netgear or a Cisco?

dub45

UPC frighten me with this sort of behaviour:( Can you confirm which of the companies you are actually with as they all have variations in their terms and conditions. I have wondered about the legality of this transfer of a customer to a more costly product irrespective of Terms and Conditions. I didn't realise that they were also adding on a charge for the actual 'work' involved in the increase.

It is important to actually do something with UPC about this rather than just ranting on here - understandable as it may be to do so.


Are you paying by direct debit? If so address this either to stop the direct debit by cancelling it with your bank or by contacting UPC remind them if you do that it specifically states in the dd scheme that disputed amounts should not be debited. Although they are most likely to ignore this as most companies seem to do.

I say 'address the dd issue' because UPC will charge you 12.50 if you miss the direct debit and your bank will charge you a similar amount.

You then have to find out what amounts you have been downloading and check your wireless security.

If you are more than 12 months with them you can consider leaving of course and this might be a good bargaining ploy in sorting this out.

Are you absolutely sure that you never got any warnings from them about you download amounts?

Zakalwe

My flatmate doesn't even know what a torrent is. I grab the odd show. Most of the shows I watch are on mid-season break though.

It could be just an error on their part. I'll call them tomorrow.

edit: I pay by Laser over the phone. I've been a customer at my current address for nearly three years. No contact from NTL besides the odd bill. No calls from their accounts people. Nothing else that I'm aware of

h2s

Hi Zakalwe, any update on this what response did you get from UPC?

dub45

h2s wrote: »

Hi Zakalwe, any update on this what response did you get from UPC?

You call is valuable to us......................

hightower1

I know from experience that they test for FUP infractions from the mac address on your modem requesting download or upload amounts so unless someone has cloned your modems mac, used it in another address and swapped your mac address with another valid UPC one all without your knowing then its def your modem sending this data up and downstream.


If there are three people in house using wifi, streaming movies and tv shows, transferring files to and from work etc its very possible to use up to or past 250gb a month. When you think of it break it in terms of 3.... so thats standard ya'll pay around 14 eur per month if your one the max pack and that is around 83 gb limit each a month.

If they have you on 80 quid a month pack its def this extreme pack they have you on meaning someone has pushed the limit on the FUP. Its perfectly legal for them to do this ( they would have done their homework first and its common ISP practice) so you've to keep that for 2 months and keep under the 250 cap for those months.

I'd still call them to confirm that all though I am only speaking from what I know.

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

I know from experience that they test for FUP infractions from the mac address on your modem requesting download or upload amounts so unless someone has cloned your modems mac, used it in another address and swapped your mac address with another valid UPC one all without your knowing then its def your modem sending this data up and downstream.


If there are three people in house using wifi, streaming movies and tv shows, transferring files to and from work etc its very possible to use up to or past 250gb a month. When you think of it break it in terms of 3.... so thats standard ya'll pay around 14 eur per month if your one the max pack and that is around 83 gb limit each a month.

If they have you on 80 quid a month pack its def this extreme pack they have you on meaning someone has pushed the limit on the FUP. Its perfectly legal for them to do this ( they would have done their homework first and its common ISP practice) so you've to keep that for 2 months and keep under the 250 cap for those months.

I'd still call them to confirm that all though I am only speaking from what I know.

When you say its perfectly legal for them to do this what are you basing this on? I am not disputing your view I am just anxious to see what it is based on as I would be very dubious about this practise. The fact that an isp would behave in such a way would in no way convince me that they had checked out the legality of such a practise. And which other isps do this?

Companies regularly reinstate dds for example - it does not make it ok for them to do it.

hightower1

Based on comreg being a government body and stating the following...

My Service Provider has advertised an "unlimited package" - what does this mean for me?

A number of telephone and broadband packages being offered are described as ‘unlimited’. In this context the word ‘unlimited’ would normally be taken to mean that a subscriber, having agreed to pay a set price, may make as many calls or spend as much time online as he or she wishes. However, some service contracts qualify the meaning of ‘unlimited’ by stating that it is subject to an ‘acceptable’ or ‘fair’ level of use by the subscriber. This is referred to as a “fair usage policy” in some advertising.

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

Source: http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_service_provider_has_advertised_an_"unlimited_package"___what_does_this_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp



This section specifically....

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

and in relation to the above requirements .....

(screen shot from UPC website in relation to BB products , see attachment...)


Also conforming to these outlines from Comreg is the following section on UPC's T&C's which would have been signed for ....

http://www.upc.ie/termsandconditions/acceptableusagepolicy/

this outlines any steps that can and would be taken by UPC should FUP be breached meaning they conform with the guidelines set out by the communications regulator....

while although may appear unfair to the layman never the less makes them legally compliant to enforce any FUP in place as being agreed for by both parties in the signing for the contract.

tman

Zakalwe wrote: »

My flatmate doesn't even know what a torrent is. I grab the odd show. Most of the shows I watch are on mid-season break though.

You can never be certain though... She might have a p2p app for downloading music running 24/7 for all you know.
My old flatmate was adamant that she didn't do that kind of thing, yet every time she turned on her laptop, the internet connection went to ****e for everybody else in the house...

NTL are a shower of cocks though... They accused me of going over their "usage" limit a few years ago, but the figures they provided were for download and upload combined, even though their T&C clearly stated a download limit of xxxx which I had adhered to

Zakalwe

I got onto them today and they told me to email their person who deals with these things. Interestingly, they didn't have my full address, so that could explain the lack of a letter (which their records say was posted). I'm expecting a call tomorrow

I'll get to the bottom of this and let you all know how I got on.

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

Based on comreg being a government body and stating the following...

My Service Provider has advertised an "unlimited package" - what does this mean for me?

A number of telephone and broadband packages being offered are described as ‘unlimited’. In this context the word ‘unlimited’ would normally be taken to mean that a subscriber, having agreed to pay a set price, may make as many calls or spend as much time online as he or she wishes. However, some service contracts qualify the meaning of ‘unlimited’ by stating that it is subject to an ‘acceptable’ or ‘fair’ level of use by the subscriber. This is referred to as a “fair usage policy” in some advertising.

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

Source: http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_service_provider_has_advertised_an_"unlimited_package"___what_does_this_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp



This section specifically....

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

and in relation to the above requirements .....

(screen shot from UPC website in relation to BB products , see attachment...)


Also conforming to these outlines from Comreg is the following section on UPC's T&C's which would have been signed for ....

http://www.upc.ie/termsandconditions/acceptableusagepolicy/

this outlines any steps that can and would be taken by UPC should FUP be breached meaning they conform with the guidelines set out by the communications regulator....

while although may appear unfair to the layman never the less makes them legally compliant to enforce any FUP in place as being agreed for by both parties in the signing for the contract.

I believe that it has now reached the stage where the average lay person cannot be reasonably expected to have a clue what they are signing up for with UPC. They have 22 pages of Terms and Conditions without the 'fair' usage policy!!!

And how is the average person to interpret this???

Your monthly data transfer allowance depends upon which broadband package you have selected. The data transfer allowances for the various packages can be found at www.upc.ie

That is taken from the fair usage policy and this is taken from [url]www.upc.ie:[/url]

Usage Limits 10GB 30GB * no cap * no cap

* refer to Acceptable Usage Policy for full details.

So the fair usage document refers the would be user to the site and the site refers the would be user to the document? How exactly is that complying with Comreg's requirements?

And in their description of the ultra product there is no caveat at all!!!

What do I get?

* Dedicated support team available to assist with many of your broadband and computer issues. Click here for details.
* 20Mb downstream; 1.5Mb upstream
* 24 hour online connection - no time restrictions
* No telephone line required
* No usage limit
* Up to 15 email addresses
* 300MB web space
* FREE wireless router

Addtionally Comreg call for a clear policy

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds.

There is no clear policy set out in the usage document only a list of alternative actions.

I also don't believe that UPC's actions in transferring a customer to a product the cost of which is unknown in advance to the customer would stand up for a minute in a court. Particularly where the customer had not been informed well in advance of the apparent 'over' usage problem. Unfortunately in all of these situations the 'might is with the companies and lousy consumer law and lack of protection means that the only way these can be contested is in court the cost of which is way beyond the average man.


Although I would hope that Consumer Affairs would not be too happy with any consumer being transferred unknowingly to a product which they did not know the price of in advance!!!

FloatingVoter

I hope to hell someone from comreg with any influence is reading all this. I also hope for world peace and a lotto win.:)

hightower1

dub45 wrote: »

I believe that it has now reached the stage where the average lay person cannot be reasonably expected to have a clue what they are signing up for with UPC. They have 22 pages of Terms and Conditions without the 'fair' usage policy!!!

And how is the average person to interpret this???

I didn't have too much trouble with it tbh? I read all the fine print in anything i sign for. Really is so important considering we are in an age of terms and conditions.

dub45 wrote: »

So the fair usage document refers the would be user to the site and the site refers the would be user to the document? How exactly is that complying with Comreg's requirements?

Well comreg ask for clear statement that an FUP exists (its shown on UPC's main BB products page), what the actions are that are taken if its breached and what consequences may be enforced (both are found on the acceptable usage policy link)

dub45 wrote: »

I also don't believe that UPC's actions in transferring a customer to a product the cost of which is unknown in advance to the customer would stand up for a minute in a court. Particularly where the customer had not been informed well in advance of the apparent 'over' usage problem. Unfortunately in all of these situations the 'might is with the companies and lousy consumer law and lack of protection means that the only way these can be contested is in court the cost of which is way beyond the average man.


Although I would hope that Consumer Affairs would not be too happy with any consumer being transferred unknowingly to a product which they did not know the price of in advance!!!

This has nothing to do with FUP?



Not that I agree with this sales term "unlimited" but also having a FUP , it really is marketing white lies but its not illegal, there is not legal precedent, Comreg seem happy if these guidelines are being used and ultimately I think relying on a company to have good sales conscience instead of relying on ones own common sense is a foolish error at best.


Should be interesting to see how his call turns out tomorrow though. Would like to hear it from themselves

willbur

hi this is what NTL HAVE ON THERE WEB SITE IF YOU APPLY FOR A 20 MEG LINE :cool:

"
What do I get?

• Dedicated support team available to assist with many of your broadband and computer issues. Click here for details.
• 20Mb downstream; 1.5Mb upstream
• 24 hour online connection - no time restrictions
• No telephone line required
• No usage limit
• Up to 15 email addresses
• 300MB web space
• FREE wireless router

NOTICE " NO USAGE LIMIT

I HAVE A 20MEG LINE AND PHONE PACKAGE ONLY BUT NO TV WITH NTL I HAVE SAT WITH SKY FOR THE SPORTS AND THIS WORKS BETTER FOR ME;)

dub45

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds.

Where is the policy detailed? Options for UPC themselves are listed but there is no policy as to how the customer will be informed that they are exceeding a limit that they have been told elsewhere does not exist!

This has nothing to do with FUP?

It has everything to do with FUP at least in my view:) It is one of the options open to UPC if you breach the FUP

Not that I agree with this sales term "unlimited" but also having a FUP , it really is marketing white lies but its not illegal, there is not legal precedent, Comreg seem happy if these guidelines are being used and ultimately I think relying on a company to have good sales conscience instead of relying on ones own common sense is a foolish error at best.

I agree totally with everything here except your use of the word 'white'. It is far too generous:) Comreg should simply outlaw this use of the word unlimited' or any variation thereof.

Quite simply UPC have dictatorial tendencies to put it kindly and someone needs to stand up to them.

By the way the make reference several times in their terms and conditions to charges that are available on the 'price list'

“Charges” means charges to be paid by you for the Services calculated according to
the prices and rates set out in our Price Lists or otherwise notified to you

Can anyone find this on the site?

And consider this! UPC charge 12.50 if you do not meet your direct debit. I am dubious as to whether people are made aware of this when they sign up for dd. Now UPC have 500,000 customers so if only 5% do not meet the direct debit per billing period UPC make a nice handy sum of over €300,000 every two months! and also bear in mind that you are paying them in advance thus giving them a considerable interest free loan - so you are being penalised for not giving them credit!!! Nice work if you can get it.

And yet another thought for you if your monthly bill with UPC is €50 euros then over the course of your two monthly billing period on average you are loaning them €50. Mulitply that by 500,000 and its a nice lot of interest free money that they have access to:rolleyes: Of course other service companies avail of this too but it galls me that they penalise people for missing a payment which is for services not yet rendered!

dub45

willbur wrote: »

hi this is what NTL HAVE ON THERE WEB SITE IF YOU APPLY FOR A 20 MEG LINE :cool:

"
What do I get?

• Dedicated support team available to assist with many of your broadband and computer issues. Click here for details.
• 20Mb downstream; 1.5Mb upstream
• 24 hour online connection - no time restrictions
• No telephone line required
• No usage limit
• Up to 15 email addresses
• 300MB web space
• FREE wireless router

NOTICE " NO USAGE LIMIT

I HAVE A 20MEG LINE AND PHONE PACKAGE ONLY BUT NO TV WITH NTL I HAVE SAT WITH SKY FOR THE SPORTS AND THIS WORKS BETTER FOR ME;)

Lewis Carroll could not have invented this fair usage nonsense!:)

Alice: It would be so nice if something would make sense for a change.

coldfire1x

Zakalwe wrote: »

Flatmate, but she's pretty computer illiterate. All she does is stream radio shows through her laptop.

That acutally can take lot of bandwidth if its constantly on. You dont realise this but it does.

There lot of bandwidth monitor programs (some are free), its good to use one of them. They may not be accurate but atleast they give a fair idea.

el dude

dub45 wrote: »

So the fair usage document refers the would be user to the site and the site refers the would be user to the document? How exactly is that complying with Comreg's requirements?

Haha, laughable isn't it. I went looking for this fair usage limit myself, even having to install Adobe reader, but could i for the life of me find out what this fair usage limit was. They send you to there, and then send you back again. Like something straight out of a bad comedy.

FloatingVoter

So far as I know, the only reason 250 gigs is accepted as the fair usage amount is that is what is quoted on the letters upc send out when you bypass it. I haven't gotten a letter yet but like el dude I've seen nothing specifying the exact limit on upc's gloriously self promoting website.

mehmeh12

What is the download allowance for the 10mb package?

OP are you planning to stick with chrorus ntl or are you changing ISP?

el dude

mehmeh12 wrote: »

What is the download allowance for the 10mb package?

Was wondering that myself actually, am thinking of downgrading and that's why iwent looking for info on their fair usage policy.

Also, probably not the thread to be asking really, so apologies. But they advertise 300mb of webspace. What does that mean? Does it mean i could create my own website and create a domain and host it from there? How do i even access this webspace??

I miss the old Chorus, lol.

coldfire1x

mehmeh12 wrote: »

What is the download allowance for the 10mb package?

OP are you planning to stick with chrorus ntl or are you changing ISP?

10mb and 20mb are the same - 20gb fair usage policy.

mehmeh12

coldfire1x wrote: »

10mb and 20mb are the same - 20gb fair usage policy.

You mean 250 GB right?

FloatingVoter

If it was 20 upc wouldn't have a single customer...maybe a long term goal of theirs.:)

vibe666

mehmeh12 wrote: »

You mean 250 GB right?

yep 250gb, same FUP on 10mbps and 20mbps packages.