The Ugly Truth?

Novella

I went to see the movie "The Ugly Truth" in the cinema on Wednesday night and while I thought it was hilarious, it also got me thinking!

Basically, the movie takes a look at the sexist differences between men and women and in the beginning, aims to burst the bubble that there are men out there who are caring, sweet etc.

To give a quick example, without spoiling the movie for people who haven't seen it, there is a scene where Abi (played by Katherine Heigl) asks Mike (Gerard Butler - swooon!) "What is wrong with comfort and efficiency?", being these are what she dresses for. He replies, "Oh, nothing, but no one wants to fcuk comfort and efficiency!".

He suggests that men are interested in looks first and foremost and unless they wanna be in the friendzone, don't care what a woman has to say!

So guys and girls, what do we think? Is there a huge difference between the sexes? For anyone else who has seen the movie, did you just watch it as a comedy or did you find that are their core many of the sexist comments have some resonance in how men and women actually think and feel?!

PK2008

Novella wrote: »

He suggests that men are interested in looks first and foremost and unless they wanna be in the friendzone, don't care what a woman has to say!

This is true

"Every joke has a kernel of truth"

Wibbs

I would say in my humble that men and women as a generalisation are different, in the initial mating/dating game anyway. Different reproductive strategies at play deep down.

At a very basic level women have more to lose by picking the wrong man(much more so in the past of course). While both men and women are visual, men are more exclusively visual. Social proof in men seems to be more of an attractant for women and a lot less so for men unless it's again based on her looks. While a very handsome man will get plenty of attention, he can be trumped by a more socially powerful man(richer/higher status). Rarely happens the other way around.

That's just the initial though and other stuff is obviously in play and there are more nuances and individual's attitudes at play too.

That would be my 2 cents, but I would reckon from personal observation that what men and women look for is similar but there are differences. There are also differences in approach to hooking up too. Simple things like how many woman will say that they were giving hints all night to a guy and he missed them and men saying they missed hints. All the women in the room can usually spot another woman making a play for a guy, not so many men can. Women tend to be more subtle and men less so in general.

The bit about men not caring what women say I wouldn;t agree with. I would say though that many men will give more time and more chances and listen more to BS if the woman is very good looking. More than a plainer woman anyway. Initially anyway.

The movie like all of those fun things just exagerates the nuances enough to be somewhat believable and it works because we do recognise certain "truths" in them albeit hyped up.

Raze_them_all

I'm honest about it, Yes looks are the most important thing at the start, without attraction there's nothing to build a sexual relationship off. I've yet to see a stunning girl in a pub go up to an ugly guy and chat him up.

Novella

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say though that many men will give more time and more chances and listen more to BS if the woman is very good looking. More than a plainer woman anyway. Initially anyway.

I totally agree.

As for the bit about women being able to see another woman coming onto a man from a mile off but the man totally missing it, that made me laugh! Definitely true.

RealEstateKing

is not that men dont care what women say or what their personality is like, its is that for most men, that has little bearing on whether we want to sleep with the woman in question or not.

Take an average looking man, sit him in a pub, no girl is interested: Give the average looking man a guitar and get him up on stage in the pub: Hes got a golden voice and he plays guitar like Jimi Hendrix. Is he sexier now? Ye damn right he is.

Try the same trick with a woman: For most men her golden voice might make her more interesting, or more worth talking to, but it probably wouldnt increase her sexual attractiveness as much as dropping 20 pounds would.

Thats not to say that men dont look for personality/talent in girlfriends/wives, they do. But for most of us the primary erogenous zone is our eyes, not our brains. For women it's a bit more begotiable.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I'm honest about it, Yes looks are the most important thing at the start, without attraction there's nothing to build a sexual relationship off. I've yet to see a stunning girl in a pub go up to an ugly guy and chat him up.

Then why are so many stunning women married to and going out with complete mingers?! Have you seen Donald Trump and his wife?! But I know what ya mean.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

is not that men dont care what women say or what their personality is like, its is that for most men, that has little bearing on whether we want to sleep with the woman in question or not.

Take an average looking man, sit him in a pub, no girl is interested: Give the average looking man a guitar and get him up on stage in the pub: Hes got a golden voice and he plays guitar like Jimi Hendrix. Is he sexier now? Ye damn right he is.

Try the same trick with a woman: For most men her golden voice might make her more interesting, or more worth talking to, but it probably wouldnt increase her sexual attractiveness as much as dropping 20 pounds would.

Thats not to say that men dont look for personality/talent in girlfriends/wives, they do. But for most of us the primary erogenous zone is our eyes, not our brains. For women it's a bit more begotiable.

Wow, interesting. That whole guitar example is really good 'cause I know that for me a man with a talent like that would definitely make him more attractive.

shellyboo

Novella wrote: »

Wow, interesting. That whole guitar example is really good 'cause I know that for me a man with a talent like that would definitely make him more attractive.

Interesting and depressing. It all comes down to looks at the end of the day, it seems - if you're not sexy, you might still get someone, but it'll be "in spite" of your looks.

Again, depressing, I say. Especially when that isn't really true for men.

Doctor DooM

shellyboo wrote: »

Interesting and depressing. It all comes down to looks at the end of the day, it seems - if you're not sexy, you might still get someone, but it'll be "in spite" of your looks.

Again, depressing, I say. Especially when that isn't really true for men.

Thats a really negative way to look at simple biological function: people are initially attracted to people they find physically attractive.

It would take an exceptionally shallow person to allow this initial drive decide who you end up with, though.

RealEstateKing

Cause for every superficial guy that wouldnt be interested in a girl unless she looked like Jesicca Alba, theres a woman that wont be interested in a guy unless he earns 100 K a year.

Both men and women are equally capable of being superficial, they are just superficial about different things.

In just the same way as women have to torture themselves to lose weight, and wear the right clothes and make-up and heels and all that crap, us men have to worry about being dominant and confident and successful in order to be attractive to the opposite sex.

As a woman you never have to worry "He'll never be interested in me, Im too shy/Im only a waitress" , all you have to do is look as good as you possibly can. He doesnt give a crap if your not confident or have a crap job.

In short: All women have to do is shave their legs, whereas us men have to shave our whole personality.

Novella

RealEstateKing wrote: »

In short: All women have to do is shave their legs, whereas us men have to shave our whole personality.

OUCH!
That isn't true, I'd never not be interested in a guy because of how much money he had (or didn't have!) or because he wasn't confident!

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

Then why are so many stunning women married to and going out with complete mingers?! Have you seen Donald Trump and his wife?! But I know what ya mean.



.

I said at the start...if your ugly as fook a few billion doesn't hurt. Look at Bill Gates.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I said at the start...if your ugly as fook a few billion doesn't hurt. Look at Bill Gates.

Too true, too true.
But I mean, a minority of women are going to go out with a guy they are not attracted to but who has a lot of money. I just mean, would it also be a minority of guys who'd go out with a girl just because she was gorgeous but with no personality or other attributes? Is beauty the dominant factor in making a decision about someone for a guy?

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

Too true, too true.
But I mean, a minority of women are going to go out with a guy they are not attracted to but who has a lot of money. I just mean, would it also be a minority of guys who'd go out with a girl just because she was gorgeous but with no personality or other attributes? Is beauty the dominant factor in making a decision about someone for a guy?

Yes it is. You have to be attracted to somebody to want to be with them. Somebody that's attractive, funny, interesting, attentive = Girlfriend material. Somebody that's funny, interesting, attentive = Friend material

Corb

Well it is true. Two girls in a bar. One slim and pretty, the other one on the chubby side....who do you think gets more attention? The slim one of course. Not saying that's fair but that's how it is. We all know that.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Yes it is. You have to be attracted to somebody to want to be with them. Somebody that's attractive, funny, interesting, attentive = Girlfriend material. Somebody that's funny, interesting, attentive = Friend material

Yeah, clearly. But the issue raised was that nothing actually matters other than how a woman looks. So if all a girl had going for her was the fact that she was gorgeous, is that enough?

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

Yeah, clearly. But the issue raised was that nothing actually matters other than how a woman looks. So if all a girl had going for her was the fact that she was gorgeous, is that enough?

Depends on how gorgeous.Probably for a bit but in the end you get bored and want more.

Novella

shellyboo wrote: »

Interesting and depressing. It all comes down to looks at the end of the day, it seems - if you're not sexy, you might still get someone, but it'll be "in spite" of your looks.

Again, depressing, I say. Especially when that isn't really true for men.

I wouldn't say it'd be "in spite" of your looks. I'm sure there are some guys who like a good ole personality! :rolleyes:
In all fairness though, you have to admit you would notice a good looking guy before you'd notice a not so good looking one! I think it's maybe just that women think more about things and aren't instantly bedazzled by looks. Sometimes not the case though.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Depends on how gorgeous.Probably for a bit but in the end you get bored and want more.

So gorgeous is good but you need more but have you ever first been attracted to something other than looks?! If that makes sense

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

So gorgeous is good but you need more but have you ever first been attracted to something other than looks?! If that makes sense

Georgous is great, more is needed though.No I have not. I don't know anything about people when I see them for the first time, so looks is all I can be attracted to.

Doctor DooM

Novella wrote: »

So gorgeous is good but you need more but have you ever first been attracted to something other than looks?! If that makes sense

Other things can attract a man to a woman. You'll often hear men ineptly trying to describe it by saying something along the lines of "It's not that she's hot, there's just something about her..."

Being completely honest, and it's been said and it's true, there's superficial people on both sides of the fences. Amazing how despite being horrifically sweaty and exhausted, I am apparently much more attractive when I happen to be slipping off a stage with my bass.

Doctor DooM

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Georgous is great, more is needed though.No I have not. I don't know anything about people when I see them for the first time, so looks is all I can be attracted to.

This is a good point. You can't blame people for being attracted on looks when looks are all one has to go for.

If one of my friends, though, continued to date a horrid human being who happened to look quite attractive, I think it would lose respect for him.

Raze_them_all

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Other things can attract a man to a woman. You'll often hear men ineptly trying to describe it by saying something along the lines of "It's not that she's hot, there's just something about her..."

Being completely honest, and it's been said and it's true, there's superficial people on both sides of the fences. Amazing how despite being horrifically sweaty and exhausted, I am apparently much more attractive when I happen to be slipping off a stage with my bass.

Ah but the person admits she's hot so the attraction is there to begin with.

Now if some lad said, "I know she's not good looking but there's something about her" I'd be shocked

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Georgous is great, more is needed though.No I have not. I don't know anything about people when I see them for the first time, so looks is all I can be attracted to.

Hmm.... If you met a girl online, didn't see a picture of her, you had loads in common with her and she was just really fun to talk to, if you met her and she wasn't hot, would you still go for it?

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Other things can attract a man to a woman. You'll often hear men ineptly trying to describe it by saying something along the lines of "It's not that she's hot, there's just something about her..."

Being completely honest, and it's been said and it's true, there's superficial people on both sides of the fences. Amazing how despite being horrifically sweaty and exhausted, I am apparently much more attractive when I happen to be slipping off a stage with my bass.

Yeah, I know the something!
Bass players are hot! Who isn't attracted to talent?! Other than men, it seems! :rolleyes::p

Raze_them_all

Doctor DooM wrote: »

.

If one of my friends, though, continued to date a horrid human being who happened to look quite attractive, I think it would lose respect for him.

Oh I agree if the girl is a complete betch I'd be wondering why he's there, the same way if I went back with a few of my ex's It wouldn't be long before I got a slap upside the head off a few of my mates

Manic Moran

Yeah, clearly. But the issue raised was that nothing actually matters other than how a woman looks. So if all a girl had going for her was the fact that she was gorgeous, is that enough?

I feel I must quote Clarkson.

"If you were with a woman who was attractive, charming, witty, intelligent, great in bed, fantastic cook, but who had a nasty habit of stabbing you in the leg every morning, the relationship wouldn't last that long"

Every man has a 'toleration' limit. Some are pickier than others.

NTM (Interloper)

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

Hmm.... If you met a girl online, didn't see a picture of her, you had loads in common with her and she was just really fun to talk to, if you met her and she wasn't hot, would you still go for it?




! :rolleyes::p

Honestly? No.She'd be a friend. No more.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Honestly? No.She'd be a friend. No more.

And if you met a girl out and she was hot but couldn't hold a conversation, you would go for it?!!!!! :eek:

valery

In my dating years i would never have gone out with a guy cos he had money, if asked out by a guy i would say yes if i was intrigued/ interested in maybe a personality trait. You know when a guy makes you take in an almost frenzied first breath on first sight ??, i always said YES to those laddies , if same was hung like, " ojesus ojesus " , and he asked me out again ??, yes, oh yes. Unfortunately this is all in my past, as settled down, too old , fart for Ireland, more blah, blah, blah.

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

And if you met a girl out and she was hot but couldn't hold a conversation, you would go for it?!!!!! :eek:

I'd give her the chance, maybe she's just really shy? I had an ex (who was stunning if I do say so myself) who my mates think is really stuck up cos she never said more than a few words around them, in reality she was just really shy and would say something stupid.

It takes time to suss a person out, but only a second to tell if they are hott or not.

Novella

valery wrote: »

In my dating years i would never have gone out with a guy cos he had money, if asked out by a guy i would say yes if i was intrigued/ interested in maybe a personality trait. You know when a guy makes you take in an almost frenzied first breath on first sight ??, i always said YES to those laddies , if same was hung like, " ojesus ojesus " , and he asked me out again ??, yes, oh yes. Unfortunately this is all in my past, as settled down, too old , fart for Ireland, more blah, blah, blah.

Haha, that made me laugh
When you mention the frenzied breath on first sight, are you basing this on the guys looks?! Or do you mean that excited little feeling you get when seeing someone you like but actually know regardless of looks?!

bogs

Havnt seen the film but id be nervous in chatting up a girl because of what she might think of me as a man when all i want is to be in a Ladys presence.ALL MEN are not what you saw in the film TG.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I'd give her the chance, maybe she's just really shy? I had an ex (who was stunning if I do say so myself) who my mates think is really stuck up cos she never said more than a few words around them, in reality she was just really shy and would say something stupid.

It takes time to suss a person out, but only a second to tell if they are hott or not.

So you only give chances to girls who are hot and it doesn't matter what kinda personality any other girl has or what she has going for her, if the packaging isn't right, you won't go there? Guys are mean

But I like the last bit!

Novella

bogs wrote: »

Havnt seen the film but id be nervous in chatting up a girl because of what she might think of me as a man when all i want is to be in a Ladys presence.ALL MEN are not what you saw in the film TG.

Awh, don't be nervous. We're just nervous of what you think of us!

And of course I know that all men aren't like in the movie haha, just thought it was a pretty interesting topic!

Doctor DooM

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Ah but the person admits she's hot so the attraction is there to begin with.

Now if some lad said, "I know she's not good looking but there's something about her" I'd be shocked

I've seen it. Maybe an age thing?

Novella wrote: »

Hmm.... If you met a girl online, didn't see a picture of her, you had loads in common with her and she was just really fun to talk to, if you met her and she wasn't hot, would you still go for it?




Yeah, I know the something!
Bass players are hot! Who isn't attracted to talent?! Other than men, it seems! :rolleyes::p

I've taken punts on girls from the net. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. There has to be some physical attraction but I find it is slightly mitigated by getting to know the person first.

Oh, and men can be attracted to talent. It's just... well...

I draw and I also play music. I would be ten times more intrigued by a woman who's fascinated by my scribbling than throws themselves at me as I struggle offstage. Because the ones from the stage are generally in love with the image- and perhaps attaching themselves to the image. (Which is extra weird, because we're hardly talking U2 here. ) This is a lesson that took a while to learn though. They're the equivalent of a man who is attracted purely on looks, in my eyes. ( You can always tell them apart from the ones who just like the artsy thing too, for some reason).

Also, maybe it is a male thing, but I am not attracted to a woman who can simply play music. But it she is playing it well- thats different. I once saw a lady playing a violin with an amazingly light and deft touch in Howth and that I found attractive.

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Oh I agree if the girl is a complete betch I'd be wondering why he's there, the same way if I went back with a few of my ex's It wouldn't be long before I got a slap upside the head off a few of my mates

They're real mates so.

Manic Moran wrote: »

I feel I must quote Clarkson.

"If you were with a woman who was attractive, charming, witty, intelligent, great in bed, fantastic cook, but who had a nasty habit of stabbing you in the leg every morning, the relationship wouldn't last that long"

Every man has a 'toleration' limit. Some are pickier than others.

NTM (Interloper)

QFT. Problem is we're wither talking opinion or generalisation here.

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

So you only give chances to girls who are hot and it doesn't matter what kinda personality any other girl has or what she has going for her, if the packaging isn't right, you won't go there? Guys are mean

But I like the last bit!

Pretty much, I'm either attracted to the girl or I'm not, I'm not going to try force myself like someone. Why can't a stunning girl have a stunning personality to boot?? So no I wont go there if the initial attraction isn't there* Guy's are mean but at least we're up front about it.

*= As long as I'm not wearing my beer goggles

Novella

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I've seen it. Maybe an age thing?



I've taken punts on girls from the net. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. There has to be some physical attraction but I find it is slightly mitigated by getting to know the person first.

Oh, and men can be attracted to talent. It's just... well...

Also, maybe it is a male thing, but I am not attracted to a woman who can simply play music. But it she is playing it well- thats different. I once saw a lady playing a violin with an amazingly light and deft touch in Howth and that I found attractive.

Don't think it's an age thing. I've heard it before and I'm not super old!

Yeah, that's cool. I wouldn't be attracted to a guy playing music badly either, if it's just an image thing, it does nothing for me. A real passion and an actual talent is a completely different thing.

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Pretty much, I'm either attracted to the girl or I'm not, I'm not going to try force myself like someone. Why can't a stunning girl have a stunning personality to boot?? So no I wont go there if the initial attraction isn't there* Guy's are mean but at least we're up front about it.

*= As long as I'm not wearing my beer goggles

BUT CAN YOU NEVER BE ATTRACTED TO SOMEONE WHO ISN'T TYPICALLY HOT?!!!

valery

Novella wrote: »

Haha, that made me laugh
When you mention the frenzied breath on first sight, are you basing this on the guys looks?! Or do you mean that excited little feeling you get when seeing someone you like but actually know regardless of looks?!

Thinking back a few years here so please forgive my ....er, lack of modern ....attitude (i think ) , anyway , you know when you are in the company of a guy for the first time and your trying to hide the fact you are getting breathless at the thought of what you want to do to the poor soul ?, this happened to me just a few times in my hunting (oh yes ) years and even though i am happily settled down now i will never forget those " moments "
.

Novella

valery wrote: »

Thinking back a few years here so please forgive my ....er, lack of modern ....attitude (i think ) , anyway , you know when you are in the company of a guy for the first time and your trying to hide the fact you are getting breathless at the thought of what you want to do to the poor soul ?, this happened to me just a few times in my hunting (oh yes ) years and even though i am happily settled down now i will never forget those " moments "
.

I know what you mean. I hope I never do either

(By the way, I've read posts by you in various other places and I always thought you were around my age haha )

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

Don't think it's an age thing. I've heard it before and I'm not super old!

Yeah, that's cool. I wouldn't be attracted to a guy playing music badly either, if it's just an image thing, it does nothing for me. A real passion and an actual talent is a completely different thing.




BUT CAN YOU NEVER BE ATTRACTED TO SOMEONE WHO ISN'T TYPICALLY HOT?!!!

What's typically hot??

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

What's typically hot??

I meant like typically hot for you, as in whatever you generally consider attractive in a girl.

valery

Novella wrote: »

I know what you mean. I hope I never do either

(By the way, I've read posts by you in various other places and I always thought you were around my age haha )

Oh, your so kind, thank you.

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

I meant like typically hot for you, as in whatever you generally consider attractive in a girl.

Oh right. There is no typically hot, I love emo/scene/alt girls but if a girls hot and not into that I still see her as hot. If I don't find a girl hot then nothing will happen.

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Oh right. There is no typically hott, I love emo/scene/alt girls but if a girls hott and not into that I still see her as hott. If I don't find a girl hott then nothing will happen.

Haha, I don't really think I can do anymore arguing here then! Looks always win!

Doctor DooM

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Oh right. There is no typically hott, I love emo/scene/alt girls but if a girls hott and not into that I still see her as hott. If I don't find a girl hott then nothing will happen.

But here's the kicker, what someone finds hot might not be what people stereotypically consider hot.

Novella

Doctor DooM wrote: »

But here's the kicker, what someone finds hot might not be what people stereotypically consider hot.

Exactly. That's why life is wonderful! It doesn't really matter if you're not stereotypically hot 'cause the probability is that there's someone out there who does think you're gorgeous!

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

Haha, I don't really think I can do anymore arguing here then! Looks always win!

At the start yes. Have you ever had a friend try set you up with someone who's lovely a great laugh etc and got there only to see someone who's not good looking. I highly doubt it would go further.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

But here's the kicker, what someone finds hot might not be what people stereotypically consider hot.

I know this. But what I'm saying is from your point of view is that you find them attractive. Not your friends. You could be a person who likes the larger ladies, your friends would see someone horrible but you would be sexually attracted to them. If that makes sense?

Novella

Raze_them_all wrote: »

At the start yes. Have you ever had a friend try set you up with someone who's lovely a great laugh etc and got there only to see someone who's not good looking. I highly doubt it would go further.

I know this. But what I'm saying is from your point of view is that you find them attractive. Not your friends. You could be a person who likes the larger ladies, your friends would see someone horrible but you would be sexually attracted to them. If that makes sense?

*cough* Have you ever seen my ex's?! :P

Purrrfect sense. Attractive is not the same for everyone.

Wibbs

Of course it also depends on the culture. It could be the other way around. The slim woman gets less attention in a culture that values bigger women.

They're the extremes though, rather like the guy with the 100 billion. The majority live in the middle and what is aspired to is not always what is actively sought. I've seen this with women who were models. Tall very thin, polished to within an inch of their lives and men I knew and met said women with, were not that interested. They said they were, but didn't take it further and these guys weren't shrinking violets.

Looking at my mates, the majority have ended up with more curvy women, even in one case very curvy(it's his preference), only one other and myself has tended to end up with thinner women. Not a one has gone for the catwalk model type.

IMHO regardless of the extremes of aspiration in any culture, there exists a vague template in the middle for both men and women.

It's not just our culture that has it either. I mean I'm sure women in ancient greece felt somewhat intimidated by statues of aphrodite. Images that would never age or lose their looks and would be forever out of reach. I wouldn't be surprised if the men thought the same of statues of achilles either. It's more overt in our culture, but I think it's always been there to one degree or other.

Raze_them_all

Novella wrote: »

*cough* Have you ever seen my ex's?! :P

Purrrfect sense. Attractive is not the same for everyone.

Yup i've seen a few of them. You appear to be attracted to the skinny musical emo type boy.

Novella

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not just our culture that has it either. I mean I'm sure women in ancient greece felt somewhat intimidated by statues of aphrodite. Images that would never age or lose their looks and would be forever out of reach. I wouldn't be surprised if the men thought the same of statues of achilles either. It's more overt in our culture, but I think it's always been there to one degree or other.

Yeah, totally. I don't think there was ever a time there wasn't pressure on women (and men!) to look a certain way to attract the opposite sex. I think though that the pressure on women to be skinny or wear whatever comes more so from other women, than it does from men. It could be the same vice versa.