Time limits on summons

georgeymac · 05-08-2009 9:06pm #1

if a road traffic offense occurs on 21 July 2008,(failure to show...insurance/license/tax) and the prosecuting garda applies for a summons on 20 Jan 2009, has he made it within his 6 month window in which to nail me... can anyine shed some more light on this 6 month time limit, and how exactly 6 months would be calculated by the courts...

thanks g

445279.ie · 05-08-2009 9:07pm

yes s/he applied one day short of the six months

Our man in Havana · 05-08-2009 9:08pm

6 calender months.

You have been nailed fair and square.

Happynappy · 05-08-2009 9:09pm

I believe the 6 months relates to the date on the summons, so you can receive the summons after the 6 months and it can can still be valid, but it the date on the summons is outside the 6 months then I believe its invalid, thats my understanding of it

nuac · 05-08-2009 9:23pm

Old and fairly well established law - Section 10(4) of Petty Sessions Act 1851.

In some legislation e.g. Waste Management legislation the period is 12 months.

poss · 06-08-2009 6:24am

You'll probably be summoned around now, or within the next few weeks.

seamus · 06-08-2009 8:43am

Sorry to take your thread in a different direction OP, but can anyone explain why the Gardai routinely wait until the very last minute to issue summonses? From what I can tell, and particularly for RTA offences, there is a Garda policy of waiting until the last day before issuing the complaint, and as we've seen in a number of cases, sometimes they get it wrong by a day and a whole case collapses.

What's the aversion to going back to the station and filling out all of the necessary documents, or scheduling Gardai 3 hours a week to do paperwork (so they're not having to go back and fill out forms after a 12 hour shift)?

Hooch · 06-08-2009 11:33am

seamus wrote: »

Sorry to take your thread in a different direction OP, but can anyone explain why the Gardai routinely wait until the very last minute to issue summonses? From what I can tell, and particularly for RTA offences, there is a Garda policy of waiting until the last day before issuing the complaint, and as we've seen in a number of cases, sometimes they get it wrong by a day and a whole case collapses.

What's the aversion to going back to the station and filling out all of the necessary documents, or scheduling Gardai 3 hours a week to do paperwork (so they're not having to go back and fill out forms after a 12 hour shift)?

The reason is simple.....we dont have the time to sit down after a shift to do it. We would loose over half an hour in the 8 hour shift (we dont work 12 hr shifts). With calls and patrols the last half hour can be busy.

The reason it is left late is generally members wait a couple of months, me its 4, and then go back through notebook and computer and spend that day issuing summons. Some members wait right up to the 6 months. A complaint for the summons can be made right after detecting an RTA offence......but members generally wait for some period. Also if it is an offence that requires and investigation file and direction, I.E. Section 49 (1) it could take up 5 months to recieve the section 19 certificate for drugs from the MBRS. So the file then has to be prepared and submitted, hense why the summons are so late.

Issuing summons on the last day isnt good policy and wouldnt recommend it. (last day summons are normally just created when members forget an incident:o.....yes were human!)

Hope this helps

seamus · 06-08-2009 12:05pm

Thanks for that, it's what I'd kind of guessed. I know shifts can sometimes end up 12 hours even if you don't want them to.

It would help I guess if there were X amount of mandatory desk hours which you had to do at the start of a shift, but then that would screw up a lot of scheduling and so forth.

There's also no point in summoning people faster just for them to wait for months to go to court

Hooch · 06-08-2009 12:07pm

seamus wrote: »

Thanks for that, it's what I'd kind of guessed. I know shifts can sometimes end up 12 hours even if you don't want them to.

It would help I guess if there were X amount of mandatory desk hours which you had to do at the start of a shift, but then that would screw up a lot of scheduling and so forth.

There's also no point in summoning people faster just for them to wait for months to go to court

Exactly!!

Some stations get rostered on 4 hours paper work every week.....but those are generally quite stations. When I was on the regular unit I never got regular time to do files!!! It was only done on the odd quite night when nothing was happening. Man power is the problem.

Tom Young · 06-08-2009 12:37pm

Would it not be clever to have a civilian paper centre to process all of this? Or does the Garda have to sign it all and note it themselves?

The old handhelds could send the paper work to a central processing centre and have the summons sent to the Garda for signing. Then things would work with no problem.

...oh yeah, no handhelds! Pulse is an archane byproduct of the New Zealand Police force which is out of date and compliance with most DP laws and takes an age to be updated etc.

This is a question of state revenues to my mind. Needs to be fixed!

Tom

poss · 06-08-2009 6:06pm

georgeymac wrote: »

if a road traffic offense occurs on 21 July 2008,(failure to show...insurance/license/tax) and the prosecuting garda applies for a summons on 20 Jan 2009, has he made it within his 6 month window in which to nail me... can anyine shed some more light on this 6 month time limit, and how exactly 6 months would be calculated by the courts...

thanks g

Couldn't you have rung the clerk of your local district court just after the 6 months and asked them was there anything pending against you?

Our man in Havana · 06-08-2009 6:30pm

They would not know.

Hooch · 06-08-2009 6:50pm

Tom Young wrote: »

Would it not be clever to have a civilian paper centre to process all of this? Or does the Garda have to sign it all and note it themselves?

The old handhelds could send the paper work to a central processing centre and have the summons sent to the Garda for signing. Then things would work with no problem.

...oh yeah, no handhelds! Pulse is an archane byproduct of the New Zealand Police force which is out of date and compliance with most DP laws and takes an age to be updated etc.

This is a question of state revenues to my mind. Needs to be fixed!

Tom

To be honest tom we have civilian clerks but as you said, it takes Gardaí to compile the file and sign off on them.

FCPS system is good in theory if they fixed the delievery problem. We enter the details into a handheld (yes we have handhelds for RTA offences!!:eek:) and thats the end of Garda involvement. The FCPS notice is generated and sent out. The summons application is then done automatically, with a notice sent to the Garda to approve issue and, if they so wish, add extra offences.

PULSE is a complete waste of time. Police Using Leading Systems Effectively........more like Police Using Lump of ****e Effectively

poss · 07-08-2009 6:22am

Bond-007 wrote: »

They would not know.

Why not?

If you rang the District Court seven to eight months after the offence surely they'd know if anything was pending against you....?

...didn't Sam34 advise people to do this in another thread , if they were worried about things?

Our man in Havana · 07-08-2009 10:30am

The court won't know until the summons has been endorsed and returned to the court. This only happens 7 days before the court date.

poss · 07-08-2009 6:54pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

The court won't know until the summons has been endorsed and returned to the court. This only happens 7 days before the court date.

Ok thanks.

No offence Sam34, looks like your advice was wrong.

John5 · 07-08-2009 7:11pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

6 calender months.

You have been nailed fair and square.

Question.

If he's been nailed fair and square, then why is he posting on the 5th August wondering if he's going to get a summons or not?

...what's the actual time allowed to serve these? if he doesn't recieve it in the next few months is he off the hook? (Just a wondering from me).

georgeymac · 08-08-2009 12:54am

i popped my boards.ie cherry with my thread above. all comments greatly appreciated. i moved house since the above 'alleged' offense, they eventually found me 3 days ago and served me with the summons to be in court next tues.

havent the money for a brief, so i'll chance my arm and ask the court to strike it out based on the 6 months thing... if not, i'll ask for an adjounment so i can get money together for a solicitor...

i'll report back on wednesday...

Our man in Havana · 08-08-2009 12:57am

John5 wrote: »

Question.

If he's been nailed fair and square, then why is he posting on the 5th August wondering if he's going to get a summons or not?

...what's the actual time allowed to serve these? if he doesn't recieve it in the next few months is he off the hook? (Just a wondering from me).

No. Once the summons has been applied for in time, they can take as long as they want in serving it provided it is served in person within 7 days of the court.

georgeymac · 08-08-2009 1:02am

what if its not within 7 days of the court date? is that an adjournment, or striking out?

Our man in Havana · 08-08-2009 1:04am

Adjournment most likely as defects in the summons are cured by appearance.

georgeymac · 08-08-2009 1:07am

cheers... i'll hope for the best...

poss · 08-08-2009 10:36am

Bond-007 wrote: »

No. Once the summons has been applied for in time, they can take as long as they want in serving it provided it is served in person within 7 days of the court.

Well, the offence was on the 21st July and he was served on the 5th August, so roughly about a year's return of the summons.

I know what you're saying about the fact that they can take as long as they want in serving it, but if you heard nothing by say the next few months/start of next year, surely you'd be unlucky if they summoned you then?

Remember, Sam34's situation in another thread? He was awaiting a threatened summons for an offence and he hasn't heard anything for the past two years. If you're saying that they can serve it anytime they want, is Sam still under threat of recieving a summons??

John5 · 09-08-2009 2:51pm

poss wrote: »

Well, the offence was on the 21st July and he was served on the 5th August, so roughly about a year's return of the summons.

I know what you're saying about the fact that they can take as long as they want in serving it, but if you heard nothing by say the next few months/start of next year, surely you'd be unlucky if they summoned you then?

Remember, Sam34's situation in another thread? He was awaiting a threatened summons for an offence and he hasn't heard anything for the past two years. If you're saying that they can serve it anytime they want, is Sam still under threat of recieving a summons??

Sam's situation reminds me of my sister who was threatened with a summons some time ago in relation to a driving offence. She still hasn't heard a thing.

But surely, you'd have to assume, a year or more after the offence that they've decided not to summon you.

It makes you wonder why if it takes them a year to serve it, that they can take as long as they like to deliver it? If that's the case...does it mean offences committed two or more years ago will still be dealt with???

Any ideas, anybody?

sam34 · 09-08-2009 8:01pm

poss wrote: »

Ok thanks.

No offence Sam34, looks like your advice was wrong.

no worries.

but am slightly annoyed that i paid a solicitor to give me that advoce and it's wrong :mad:

sam34 · 09-08-2009 8:06pm

poss wrote: »

Remember, Sam34's situation in another thread? He was awaiting a threatened summons for an offence and he hasn't heard anything for the past two years. If you're saying that they can serve it anytime they want, is Sam still under threat of recieving a summons??

:eek::eek:
jesus, dont say that!

John5 · 10-08-2009 6:25am

sam34 wrote: »

:eek::eek:
jesus, dont say that!

It's Bond-007 who saying it, Sam.

If they still can serve it, practically as long as they want, for all we know your summons could be sitting in a drawer somewhere.

poss · 10-08-2009 7:52pm

John5 wrote: »

It's Bond-007 who saying it, Sam.

If they still can serve it, practically as long as they want, for all we know your summons could be sitting in a drawer somewhere.

That could well be the case.

John5 · 12-08-2009 6:31am

poss wrote: »

That could well be the case.

If there's no time limit, god knows they could still serve you with it.

Our man in Havana · 12-08-2009 10:39am

In that case the case would be struck out for undue delay.

Hooch · 12-08-2009 10:39am

John5 wrote: »

If there's no time limit, god knows they could still serve you with it.

Bond is 100% right in regards to the summons being served anytime, however justice delayed is justice denied (my new favorite saying!!)

If it takes three years we'll say to serve a summons, then the prosecuting member will be asked why it took so long. If there is no good reason, ie. you changed address and they were trying to track you down, then the summons would be struck out.

bonzodog2 · 12-08-2009 1:20pm

nice guy always wrote: »

If it takes three years we'll say to serve a summons, then the prosecuting member will be asked why it took so long. If there is no good reason, ie. you changed address and they were trying to track you down, then the summons would be struck out.

How about if someone has fled the country to avoid a possible lengthy prison term for drugs(not a massive amount) ?

Hooch · 12-08-2009 1:25pm

bonzodog2 wrote: »

How about if someone has fled the country to avoid a possible lengthy prison term for drugs(not a massive amount) ?

Then the summons will remain alive and it was not the prosecutions actions that delayed the case.

It can stay alive for that persons lifetime if they fled the state.

bonzodog2 · 12-08-2009 2:07pm

It is not clear that a summons has been issued. The person was detained in a van (drugs were found in the van), questioned in a garda station, and released without being charged. This was nearly two years ago.

Hooch · 12-08-2009 2:32pm

bonzodog2 wrote: »

It is not clear that a summons has been issued. The person was detained in a van (drugs were found in the van), questioned in a garda station, and released without being charged. This was nearly two years ago.

Then im afraid its all a waiting game.....unless that person wants to contact the Garda in question....

Our man in Havana · 12-08-2009 2:35pm

Sure, it is of no harm at this stage.

John5 · 12-08-2009 5:25pm

nice guy always wrote: »

If it takes three years we'll say to serve a summons, then the prosecuting member will be asked why it took so long. If there is no good reason, ie. you changed address and they were trying to track you down, then the summons would be struck out.

Why on earth would a prosecuting member (Gardai) take 3 years to serve a summons?

If summons are struck out if you changed address, can't you see people who were previously arrested and who happen to rent, legging it and moving on?

What i find amazing about this, is that you could have someone genuinely concerned/worried about their court date a year after the offence, and the Gardai put it on the long finger? Baffling. :rolleyes:

georgeymac · 12-08-2009 6:23pm

Well, i had my day in court today. I felt a bit silly as I was the only one wearing a suit!!
My intention was to ask for the whole lot to be struck out because of the length of time the garda took to apply for a summons.

I didnt get my glory moment with the judge (prob just as well), but a kind garda tapped me on the shouder to tell me my case had been struck out earlier that morning.

Thanks for all the advice...

Happy days!!!:D

poss · 13-08-2009 6:26am

georgeymac wrote: »

Well, i had my day in court today. I felt a bit silly as I was the only one wearing a suit!!
My intention was to ask for the whole lot to be struck out because of the length of time the garda took to apply for a summons.

I didnt get my glory moment with the judge (prob just as well), but a kind garda tapped me on the shouder to tell me my case had been struck out earlier that morning.

Thanks for all the advice...

Happy days!!!:D

Interesting, no offence (no pun intended) but...

You can commit an offence, and have it struck out after a year, even when you're summoned, effectively getting away with it!
:eek:

Name Changed · 13-08-2009 8:52am

georgeymac wrote: »

Well, i had my day in court today. I felt a bit silly as I was the only one wearing a suit!!
My intention was to ask for the whole lot to be struck out because of the length of time the garda took to apply for a summons.

I didnt get my glory moment with the judge (prob just as well), but a kind garda tapped me on the shouder to tell me my case had been struck out earlier that morning.

Thanks for all the advice...

Happy days!!!:D

You're lucky someone struck it out beforehand for you so.

There was no way the judge would have struck out a case once the summonses were applied for in the allotted time.

Happy days for you indeed!

John5 · 14-08-2009 6:21am

Name Changed wrote: »

You're lucky someone struck it out beforehand for you so.

There was no way the judge would have struck out a case once the summonses were applied for in the allotted time.

So, somebody else other than the judge struck this case out? Who's got more power than the allotted judge for this case??

People have been saying on this thread that the summons was applied for in the allotted time and this guy was 'nailed fair and square.'...

...and then he isn't? Can somebody please explain?:rolleyes:

poss · 14-08-2009 5:52pm

John5 wrote: »

So, somebody else other than the judge struck this case out? Who's got more power than the allotted judge for this case??

People have been saying on this thread that the summons was applied for in the allotted time and this guy was 'nailed fair and square.'...

...and then he isn't? Can somebody please explain?:rolleyes:

I've no idea.

Can anybody enlighten us?

Tom Young · 14-08-2009 6:01pm

Technically the moving party i.e., the garda, can strike it out for a good volume of reasons. The judge does not have to be involved if it is decided to strike it out or agreed to do so by the parties.

John5 · 14-08-2009 6:08pm

Tom Young wrote: »

Technically the moving party i.e., the garda, can strike it out for a good volume of reasons. The judge does not have to be involved if it is decided to strike it out or agreed to do so by the parties.

From reading the previous posts, it looks like this was struck out due to the Garda taking more than a year to serve the summons, i'm presuming so?

Would the Gardai have realised this and struck this out himself, before the defendant here asked it to be struck out in court?

Tom Young · 14-08-2009 6:15pm

Possibly yes.

poss · 15-08-2009 10:10am

Tom Young wrote: »

Possibly yes.

Well, if that happened, then why would the Gardai summon the defendant to court in the first place?...if he took too long to serve the summons?

Couldn't he just have left it at that? I'm pretty sure that once the year had passed that the defendant would have realised that he/she was not going to be summoned.

Anybody any idea?

Tom Young · 15-08-2009 2:18pm

Clerical delays are a feature of the public service. It's not electronic or automated and often errors are not detected until the court date.

Prosecution of offences is not in the gift of the Defendant, annoying as it might appear to be. Tough I say, but if you're lucky enough that there is some fatal error an hour in court is a little price to pay for a strike out or indeed a dismissal.

Tom

John5 · 18-08-2009 6:23am

Bond-007 wrote: »

No. Once the summons has been applied for in time, they can take as long as they want in serving it provided it is served in person within 7 days of the court.

Why would they take as long as they want in serving it, if they already have it and want to summon the person to court?

Our man in Havana · 18-08-2009 9:38am

God only knows.

There was a reason that if you serve too early the accused will forget he is due in court.

poss · 19-08-2009 6:22am

Bond-007 wrote: »

God only knows.

There was a reason that if you serve too early the accused will forget he is due in court.

How would they be able to serve you too early, if the process of getting the summons together takes a year or so, in the first place?

Time limits on summons

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