Rigid training schedules - good or bad?

aero2k

Hi all,

I'm a lot less experienced at running than many on here, however I do have a bit of experience of training for an endurance sport at a reasonably high level (cycling). I was intrigued by some remarks over on the Frank Duffy 10 mile call your time thread, where some people referred to planning (or having?) to do a very long run the day after the race. In my cycling days, during the off season I learned never to do hard sessions on successive days, in fact at times I'd combine a sprint, tempo and endurance session all together, then I could have an easy day or two to recover. During the season I typically raced twice per week, ocassionally three times, but many of these races were treated as training sessions, unless I thought I had a chance of getting a placing. I always juggled things around to get my easy (usually active recovery on the bike) days in.
My approach to the running is pretty similar now. I run every day, with only two hard sessions per week. If I want to race, I make the race part of one of those sessions. The day of the 5 mile I did 3.5 miles warm-up and nearly 4 miles warm down. The following day I ran 8 miles at a reasonably gentle pace, and I only went that far because I felt good.
My approach is to set an overall goal, in this case a sub 3hr DCM '09, and then try to make everything else work towards that. So rather than feeling I have to do a particular session, I can say I choose to run hard (or easy) today because I believe doing so will improve my chances of achieving my goal, not because I wrote it in my program 3 months ago and I'm going to stick to that regardless of how I feel, whether or not I'm injured, and in spite of the fact that I got carried away by offers of nice T-shirts and entered a few more races. (I'm referring to myself here:))

What do ye all think?

another world

Totally rigid seems wrong and a bit dangerous. I noticed that as well in the 10 mile thread, I think 10 miles is a decent enough distance and to be doing a LSR the day after seems a bit hard and could possibly lead to injuries.

My theory is similar to yours. 2 hard days a week but they don´t have to be on particular days just at some stage during the week (when I´m feeling best preferebly). Over a period of months this should have the right effect.

Running Bing

I think it varies for different people.

I certainly like a good rigid training programme and knowing I have to do x workout at y pace this week. Having said that I dont think a workout programme should be so rigid in that you specific days are planned months in advance and you never deviate. I like knowing what I have to do for a given week and then fitting it in depending how I feel.

I think if your too flexible it can also be bad because some people will be making excuses that they just dont feel up to it and its not sensible to do when it reality they might just be a bit tired and might be perfectly ok for the workout. I could see myself being like this. Some days Im not feeling good but as I get into the workout I feel better and some of my best session have been on days where Im feeling less than 100% starting off. I think you would need a lot of discipline to make a really flexible programme work.

another world

Running Bing wrote: »

I think it varies for different people.

I certainly like a good rigid training programme and knowing I have to do x workout at y pace this week. Having said that I dont think a workout programme should be so rigid in that you specific days are planned months in advance and you never deviate. I like knowing what I have to do for a given week and then fitting it in depending how I feel.

I think if your too flexible it can also be bad because some people will be making excuses that they just dont feel up to it and its not sensible to do when it reality they might just be a bit tired and might be perfectly ok for the workout. I could see myself being like this. Some days Im not feeling good but as I get into the workout I feel better and some of my best session have been on days where Im feeling less than 100% starting off. I think you would need a lot of discipline to make a really flexible programme work.

Good point about giving yourself excuses. I make a point of having to do 2 hard sessions per week and having to do X mileage. If not, I´d never get off the couch... The flexibilty is in the days not the sessions.

scottreynolds

another world wrote: »

Totally rigid seems wrong and a bit dangerous.

Running Bing wrote: »

I think it varies for different people.

I agree with most here. I mean you have to have a plan and a goal. My plans (more for cycling) have always had a mixture of days but they also were strict. I find I stick to them better... however if I am really tired or injured then my plans can change. The same if I get personal commitments... I always rest Sundays -- to be spent with the fairly unless I'm training for a long event where I need to do more than 4 hours twice (I'll get up early / stay out late Friday instead on Sunday training if possible).

Looking at someone running 10 miles and questioning there next days activity is looking at a training pan out of context. You have to take into account their overall plan... I'm running 11 miles Friday then 15 miles Saturday but its means nothing. In Sept I have a double long run planned 2X25 miles. Now to some thats two hard days in a row for me if two bloody long training days. Duration and intensity are different things.

RacoonQueen

This is the first time I've followed a marathon training schedule, while I'm not following it to a tee because I like getting my gym sessions in too, I'm finding that it is great for helping me get in my long runs and get in my speed sessions which are really hard to dump by the wayside for an easy run if it's not sitting on your wall/in your diary/on your phones calandar(yep I've have it on all of them) leering at you. Before I'd have said 'yeah I'll do an 17 miler or so on Saturday' then Saturday would come and go...soon it would be Monday again I'd be back in work and feeling guilty for missing my long run.
I also consider 10 miles as an 'easy' distance(all that ultra training is still in my head) so doing 10 miles @ 70/80% the day before a LSR, mentally, seems like a breeze to me(until I actually do it next weekend and realise how much fitness I've lost).

aero2k

scottreynolds wrote: »

Looking at someone running 10 miles and questioning there next days activity is looking at a training pan out of context.

I didn't want to appear to question any particular person's plan, just the thought struck me as I was reading the thread and I was wondering if others felt the same.

scottreynolds wrote: »

Duration and intensity are different things.

Absolutely, but large amounts of either, separately or together, can lead to fatigue / overtraining.

Thanks for all the responses so far. I take the point that it can be easy to make excuses if your plan is too flexible. For those that are wondering I do have a plan, mostly in my head. I run every day, with a tempo session (total 13ish miles, 90 ish minutes) on a Tuesday and a LSR with some @ MP on a Saturday. Other days I run 30-60 min at a pace I enjoy. If I'm feeling particularly sluggish on a Tue, the tempo session is replaced by an easy run and is done instead on Wednesday. I do 3-4 weeks of increasing intensity and / or volume, followed by an easier week with a long run instead of tempo, and cutting back a little on the overall mileage. I work it so that races fall just before the easy weeks.
I am refining an excel sheet with the hard workouts listed so I'm sure I'm making progress. The Forerunner 305 has been a big help so far.

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I also consider 10 miles as an 'easy' distance(all that ultra training is still in my head) so doing 10 miles @ 70/80% the day before a LSR, mentally, seems like a breeze to me(until I actually do it next weekend and realise how much fitness I've lost).

Ha, forgot about the ultra thing, now I feel all inferior:(! For some reason 10 miles feels hard for me, except on an 18 mile run - once I pass the 10 mile mark the increasing fatigue is offset by the increasing sense of achievement, and even though I feel tired, in a strange way I feel my legs are moving easier. Weird:D

lizanne83

I was rigid, very rigid. In fact that's an understatement... I was obsessive about running... hitting target weekly mileage.... time goals for every race. I set a training schedule out each Sunday for the week ahead. And nothing would get in the way... lack of sleep, work, other commitments... I would ensure the schedule was done: churning the miles rain hail or snow and doing the cross-training (weights and cycling) "as per schedule"....... Wise? No. I learned the very hard way! As a result I got a serious injury (complicated pelvic stress fracture after Berlin marathon Sept-08) Still have it. Haven't been able to run since.... yet alone walk for a lot of this time or exercise. Can go for walks now since start of June but still far from recovered and still limited in walking time nor can cycle as it's directly on injury! But many valuable lessons are learned.

Sounds like I'm going off the point to the thread topic but reverting back.... Runners all have a very similar mentality:
focused, determined, passionate, disciplined.... all very good traits indeed... but which can inevitably lead to burn out and in my case - serious injury. We all know the wonderful word 'balance' and for runners the importance of 'rest'. But we hate that word. When I caN run again and exercise to my hearts content, I will never ever underestimate those too important words: rest and balance. My - rant - is - done! But this 'rant' is intended to be strong advice, not a lecture or call for sympathy. I have actually gained very important insights and definitely agree with the rigidness and almost regimented lifestyles of most (not all) runners... good topic raised by aero

Krusty_Clown

Hal Higdon's intermediate II program (which is quite soft in comparison to a number of other programs) features 10 mile PMP runs on a saturday, followed by 20 mile LSRs on a Sunday three times. While a 10 mile PMP run may not necessarily be considered a hard day, racing a 10 mile followed by a 20 mile lsr should be fine, as long as you're willing to sacrifice a bit of effort (pace) in one of the two runs. Just my opinion.

Being regimental also includes not running on the days you're not supposed to run (or cross-training for the exercise junkies!).

Vinny Mulvey

I think it varies for different people but personally speaking i prefer a rigid approach which should be followed down to the tee but is also open to change to take into account injuries and colds and flus etc. You can't predict those things and your schedule should be adaptable to suit those times. but overall i feel that if we didn't have coaches who pushed us and got us out when we didn't feel like it or when the excused kicked in (and we all have those days!!) then we wouldn't be tested and we wouldn't get any closer to our limits in the sport. so in short i would say yes rigid, but it has be flexible if it needs to be

shels4ever

Vinny Mulvey wrote: »

I think it varies for different people but personally speaking i prefer a rigid approach which should be followed down to the tee but is also open to change to take into account injuries and colds and flus etc. You can't predict those things and your schedule should be adaptable to suit those times. but overall i feel that if we didn't have coaches who pushed us and got us out when we didn't feel like it or when the excused kicked in (and we all have those days!!) then we wouldn't be tested and we wouldn't get any closer to our limits in the sport. so in short i would say yes rigid, but it has be flexible if it needs to be

I'd agree with Vinny there, I like ridgid schedules too but there comes a time when you just cant run and any schedule should avoid flogging a dead horse, today Work got in the way of training for me, well actuallt had a reallt long day and got to the park after 10pm , didn't run as I couldnt see a thing and didnt fancy the road at all.
Listen to your body.

shels4ever

lizanne83 wrote: »

lack of sleep, work, other commitments... I would ensure the schedule was done:

I know, it just doesnt work , worked an 1 hour shift at the weekend and suck the runners on after, only managed 3-4 miles until i decided to go home to bed, next day felt great... As some of the coaches say stress, sleep, diet are all apart of the training schedule and missing sleep is almost as bad as missing training...

scottreynolds

lizanne83 wrote: »

I was rigid, very rigid. In fact that's an understatement... I was obsessive about running...

Sorry to hear of your injury but thanks for your sage advice. All the best with the recovery.

wizwill

lizanne83 wrote: »

I was rigid, very rigid. In fact that's an understatement... I was obsessive about running... hitting target weekly mileage.... time goals for every race. I set a training schedule out each Sunday for the week ahead. And nothing would get in the way... lack of sleep, work, other commitments... I would ensure the schedule was done: churning the miles rain hail or snow and doing the cross-training (weights and cycling) "as per schedule"....... Wise? No. I learned the very hard way! As a result I got a serious injury (complicated pelvic stress fracture after Berlin marathon Sept-08) Still have it. Haven't been able to run since.... yet alone walk for a lot of this time or exercise. Can go for walks now since start of June but still far from recovered and still limited in walking time nor can cycle as it's directly on injury! But many valuable lessons are learned.

In Tim Noakes book "The Lore of Running" there is a very interesting section about the greatest marathon runners of all time, the guys who were pushing times down from 2.15 to 2.14 etc etc. He has a section for each legendary marathon runner and its fascinating to read about the lessons that these guys learned the hard way before there was conventional wisdom in area's like rest, recovery and nutrition. The legendary Ron Hill had a strict routine sometimes running up to 290k per week but some of his best performances came after injuries that limited the amount of training he could do. There was is another guy who broke a marathon world record back in the day and he reckons that one particular race he did effected him so badly in terms of heat stroke he was never the same runner again. I think the lessons learned by these guys is train hard but be smart and know when to back off for injuries / illness or over training.

The book is a fascinating read on the topic, i know some people dont like his "central governor" approach, but its 1000 pages long and cost 25 quid, i got it last christmas and am reading it over and over, its a great read at the cost of say four Runners World magazines.

lizanne83

Shels I fully agree that: “stress, sleep, diet etc are all apart of the training schedule and missing sleep is almost as bad as missing training...”
This is bang on. But when you are deep into a rigid schedule, so determined to follow-it to a tee & it’s non-stop go, many of us are in a cloud of smoke and can’t actually see what’s reaLLY happening or how immersed we are in such. How the disciplined training (which for me diD include the rest day etc but it wasn’t really enough) is still damaging and perhaps over-rigid and disciplined that it doesn’t allow for enough of the other important factors of training: more rest time when actually needed (despite this interrupting the original schedule) and enough sleep. But such military style schedules sometimes pull the wool over your eyes where you are unable to forecast the effects and consequences of this unbalanced non-sensible approach.

Wizwill, thanks a lot for the book recommendation. I may pick it up. I read the Radcliffe autobiography last month and wow those elite pro runners pretty much have all come through some string of long-term injuries… which have all served to make them stronger more sensible runners.

I definitely think that in terms of being a better (more sensible) runner, you often need to get a serious / long-term injury that knocks you out for a longtime in order to really Clearly see that there truly is more to life than running-running-running! For many runners on the other hand, they have seen and heard enough of these stories to know the importance of balance and ‘listening to your body’ more….. we all know this but sometimes choose to ignore in favour of our running passion & hope for the best! I look forward to running again one day & the pure relief and passion and incomparable feeling I once got from running…. but definitely with my eyes wide open next time and the oh so important newfound ability of ‘balance’!

wizwill

Lizanne, Best of luck with your recovery

aero2k

Hi all,

Been away from the internet for a few days (yes, I did still get my daily runs in as per plan!). Thanks for all the responses and comments / advice.
I suppose the consensus might be that it's good to have a plan and stick to it - just make sure it's the right plan for you and your personal circumstances / ability.

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm a lot less experienced at running than many on here, however I do have a bit of experience of training for an endurance sport at a reasonably high level (cycling). I was intrigued by some remarks over on the Frank Duffy 10 mile call your time thread, where some people referred to planning (or having?) to do a very long run the day after the race. In my cycling days, during the off season I learned never to do hard sessions on successive days, in fact at times I'd combine a sprint, tempo and endurance session all together, then I could have an easy day or two to recover. During the season I typically raced twice per week, ocassionally three times, but many of these races were treated as training sessions, unless I thought I had a chance of getting a placing. I always juggled things around to get my easy (usually active recovery on the bike) days in.
My approach to the running is pretty similar now. I run every day, with only two hard sessions per week. If I want to race, I make the race part of one of those sessions. The day of the 5 mile I did 3.5 miles warm-up and nearly 4 miles warm down. The following day I ran 8 miles at a reasonably gentle pace, and I only went that far because I felt good.
My approach is to set an overall goal, in this case a sub 3hr DCM '09, and then try to make everything else work towards that. So rather than feeling I have to do a particular session, I can say I choose to run hard (or easy) today because I believe doing so will improve my chances of achieving my goal, not because I wrote it in my program 3 months ago and I'm going to stick to that regardless of how I feel, whether or not I'm injured, and in spite of the fact that I got carried away by offers of nice T-shirts and entered a few more races. (I'm referring to myself here:))

What do ye all think?

I've been trying to follow a half marathon schedule for good few weeks now+ even tough it gets interrupted with work/hols (sometimes beer!), I think its great to have it as a reference. The key workouts in any schedule are the tempo/interval and long run.The rest is easy running.this sounds obvious to a lot of people here?
A good schedule will also recommend training paces for all these runs as well. I think it is key to get the above harder sessions into the week as best you can, if it means re-aligning the easier days of running, so be it, but the training plan is the reference for that week,as each week progresses to the next...