Clamping issue

Rushwan

Hi all, was clamped at railway station as ticket fell off car on very windy day, and despite 2 appeal letters no joy from clamping company as regards refund of €125 clamping fee. My question now is should I just leave this to rest in peace? Would it do any good to bring a case to the small claims court? Was half thinking at one stage of trying to get others who have been clamped under the same circumstances and bring a "class action" case to the small claims court. Any advice?

Cabaal

When you say ticket do you mean your parking fee to show you paid for parking?

If so why did you not leave this inside your car on the dash where it couldn't be stolen or blown off?

In relation to class action suits, I don't believe the exist in Ireland in the same way as you see in the states, my understanding is people would need to bring forward there own cases.

Gillo

It's unfortunate that the ticket blew away, but it wasn't on the car as it is meant to be.
Also I've never that I can think of remember seen someone putting the ticket on the outside of the car (exposed to wind).

Welease

I think going to SCC would be a waste of your time and money. The ticket is your proof of payment, which you lost. I can't imagine any court would find in your favour, as that would open the flood gates for everyone to "lose" their tickets.

Without the ticket, i would imagine you have absolutely no recourse apart from learning an expensive lesson.
If they had CCTV, they may be willing to check the video of that day (assuming they still have it).

Carlow52

Welease wrote: »

I think going to SCC would be a waste of your time and money. The ticket is your proof of payment, which you lost. I can't imagine any court would find in your favour, as that would open the flood gates for everyone to "lose" their tickets.

Without the ticket, i would imagine you have absolutely no recourse apart from learning an expensive lesson.
If they had CCTV, they may be willing to check the video of that day (assuming they still have it).

CCTV only available if a crime has been committed.

I'd like to see the paperwork for the SCC:D

jor el

Carlow52 wrote: »

CCTV only available if a crime has been committed.

No, if you're in the CCTV footage, you can request a copy of it under FOI act. You'll need to pay a fee though.

At the end of the day, that won't prove anything anyway, as you wouldn't be able to read the time on the ticket from any CCTV footage, and it was your own fault for leaving it on the outside, that's just bizarre. You messed up, and now you have to pay, let it go.

Rushwan

The ticket was proof of payment, I still have it, it blew from dashboard onto the floor of the car, but despite having this NCPS will not refund the money.

jor el

That's different. However, a ticket must be displayed where it can be seen, in order to be valid. You could of course file the claim with the small claims court, using the ticket as proof you had paid for the time they clamped you, and see what happens. It will only cost you 15 euro.

ladylilly21

I remember seeing something before either on one of those pay & display notice boards in the carpark's or on the back of the ticket itself that the ticket must be facing upwards on your dash board and visable to the traffic warden.

It illuminates people using the excuse 'having no change and going to the nearest shop for some coins (whilst purchasing goods too!) and upon their return they notice the traffic warden and THEN purchase their ticket'. The majority of carpark's now give fifteen minute's grace on parking to account for no change or short stays.

To be honest, I think you'd be bringing additional cost onto yourself by bringing it to the SCC.

Take it as a hard lesson learnt and to always have bluetac in the car to prevent it blowing away in future!!

Del2005

Your 1st mistake was in paying the fee and not cutting off the clamp. Since you've paid the fee they have no need to respond to you, as Dinnerlady says the clamping is for non display not non payment.

Do you not check to make sure that you're parking ticket is on display before you walk away? Or if you believe in conspiracies why did they get rid of the sticker on the back of the tickets?

Rushwan

Obviously I NOW check my ticket every day to make sure it's on the dashboard before I leave the car-blu tac or sellotape unfortunately don't work-the dashboard has been cleaned with son of a gun and nothing sticks to it. I phoned Irish Ral in relation to clamping too but they didn't want to know-private company clamping etc.etc. They did say they were going to bring out plastic holders so people could display their tickets in them and they won't blow off. So far I haven't seen any of these available from I. R. Must be delayed, eh?

Cabaal

Rushwan wrote: »

The ticket was proof of payment, I still have it, it blew from dashboard onto the floor of the car, but despite having this NCPS will not refund the money.

Did you leave the car windows open?

How did it blow onto the floor if the car was closed, if its the case it moved as you closed the door its still your job to make sure it was correctyly displayed so you should have checked after you closed your car.

Welease

Del2005 wrote: »

Your 1st mistake was in paying the fee and not cutting off the clamp.

If you cut the clamp off, then could end up in court on charges of destruction of property.

Del2005

Welease wrote: »

If you cut the clamp off, then could end up in court on charges of destruction of property.

If you do a search for clamping on this site you'll see that while technically you can be done for destruction of property you'd be very unlucky. They have no way of finding you once you drive off so all they can do is clamp you again if they see you:D

Lollipops23

Cabaal wrote: »

Did you leave the car windows open?

How did it blow onto the floor if the car was closed, if its the case it moved as you closed the door its still your job to make sure it was correctyly displayed so you should have checked after you closed your car.

it happened to me a few weeks ago but thankfully i noticed; i put it on the dashboard but when i shut the door, a gust of wind blew it right onto the floor. easily done.

Gillo

Del2005 wrote: »

If you do a search for clamping on this site you'll see that while technically you can be done for destruction of property you'd be very unlucky. They have no way of finding you once you drive off so all they can do is clamp you again if they see you:D

Eh, they keep a record of the car reg and as far as I've seen most clamps have a serial number. If you intentionally damage property, it's not hard for the clampers to get the police invovled.

What is it with bad advice and this forum?

dudara

We are not going to get into a clamping debate here.

OP, it is your responsibility to make sure that the ticket is visible when you leave the car. I would, like many other posters, always check to make sure that the ticket hadn't moved as I closed the door.

I have sympathy for you, but I doubt that you have a case here.

aero2k

I parked the car and stuck the ticket inside the windscreen using the peel off backing - it was about 4 years ago. Discovering I was going to be delayed, I went back to get another ticket. As I approached the car I thought "oh, some poor bastid has been clamped!". Then I realised I was the poor bastid! Cue the "oh, have I lost my mind, I remember buying a ticket etc.....". Anyway, when I got to the car there was the ticket, clearly visible, face up on the passenger seat, for anyone who bothered to take the 2 seconds to see. I had to pay the fee and it took two letters of appeal, including photocopies of the ticket, but in the end they ruled in my favour and I got the fee back. Plus I got a little free parking as I didn't need another ticket for my extended stay; I had 2 hours to move the car after the clamp was removed.
Moral of the story - don't trust the sticky label - if there is one. My windscreen had some condensation on the inside. I now make sure to use the little transparent clip that's about one third way up the inside of the screen on the driver's side - a lot of cars have these.
Good luck with your appeal.

BnA

Do a search on the motoring forum for clamping.

Clamping on private property is a very hairy issue. Whatever about on street clamping by local councils etc., clamping by private companies on private property is very grey. While they do have a right to demand a "fine" off you for not displaying a ticket. They do not have a right to impound your car, which in effect they are doing by clamping it.

I have read a lot of reports of people who cut off clamps and I have yet to see anyone who was prosecuted by a private company for doing it.

A friend of mine done it a few weeks ago. His and his girlfriends cars were clamped in the Apartment block they live it. They got in a dispute with the clampers who were demanding almost €500 and not budging. He took off the clamps by cutting a link in the chain with a grinder, brought the clamps to a friend of his who welded the link back, and left the clamps back where the cars were. The clampers who had his mobile number and were ringing him almost daily never rang him or said a word since. I'd say they were just delighted and surprised to actually get the clamps back

Ste.phen

BnA wrote: »

He took off the clamps by cutting a link in the chain with a grinder, brought the clamps to a friend of his who welded the link back, and left the clamps back where the cars were. The clampers who had his mobile number and were ringing him almost daily never rang him or said a word since. I'd say they were just delighted and surprised to actually get the clamps back

That's feckin' genius. I love that idea. They can hardly claim you damaged it after that :P

BnA

Ste.phen wrote: »

That's feckin' genius. I love that idea. They can hardly claim you damaged it after that :P

True. But he was lucky. Not everyone has a friend with a welder.

Saruman

BnA wrote: »

True. But he was lucky. Not everyone has a friend with a welder.

They wanted €500, surely a welding (electric) machine would cost a fraction of that.

gillo_100

BnA wrote: »

Clamping on private property is a very hairy issue. Whatever about on street clamping by local councils etc., clamping by private companies on private property is very grey. While they do have a right to demand a "fine" off you for not displaying a ticket. They do not have a right to impound your car, which in effect they are doing by clamping it.

Its a funny one cause OP said was in a train station so not exactly private but not on street either, greyer than typical irish summer day.

Personally I'd try me best to get money back, there is a time on the tickets so its not as if you could have got it after it was clamped.

Del2005

gillo_100 wrote: »

Its a funny one cause OP said was in a train station so not exactly private but not on street either, greyer than typical irish summer day.

Train station car park is private property. Once it's not a public road then it's privare clampers acting on a somewhat gray side of the law.

Personally I'd try me best to get money back, there is a time on the tickets so its not as if you could have got it after it was clamped.

The OP was clamped for non display not non payment and has had 2 appeals already rejected. Not much else they can do, except keep appealing...

BnA

gillo_100 wrote: »

Its a funny one cause OP said was in a train station so not exactly private but not on street either, greyer than typical irish summer day.

Personally I'd try me best to get money back, there is a time on the tickets so its not as if you could have got it after it was clamped.

If this was a ticketing system and the Op was issued with a fine of 120 quid for not displaying a ticket, then he woudl appeal away and they would probably have to take him to court etc. Even if they did go that far, they probably wouldn't win it.

However, with Clamping, you have to pay the fine first (to get your car back) and appeal afterwards. They will make it as difficult as possible for you to appeal (ie Ignore you). Your only hope is to go after them legally. But do you really want to go to that trouble.

I know it is easy to say in hindsight, but, if possible, you probably should have cut it off in the first place.

jor el

BnA wrote: »

Your only hope is to go after them legally. But do you really want to go to that trouble.

Small Claims costs 15 euro, and there are no other fees involved. Legal representation is not needed (or allowed I think). He'll either win and get his money back, or lose and that'll be the end of it. 15 euro is worth it, if he has a chance of getting the money back.

The clampers can however use all his current appeals against him, and if he admitted in those appeals that the ticket had fallen out of the window, then a judge could easily decide that the clamping was valid, and hence the payment was due (and will not be refunded).

Moojuice

NCPS did the exact same thing to my mom, the ticket blew on to the floor as she closed the door. I argued that if it was to be displayed on the dashboard or windscreen then they should provide the means to do this e.g with a stick label backing or something. My mom dropped it in the end, I wanted to fight it. They are a nasty company, just ignore you and when they do respond they never refer to any of the points made. I would fight it, as some have said here, they are in a very grey legal area.

heini

nothing you can do - its on the small print on the ticket

i think you can get ticket holders from the office at the train station

Run_to_da_hills

Rushwan wrote: »

The ticket was proof of payment, I still have it, it blew from dashboard onto the floor of the car, but despite having this NCPS will not refund the money.

Makes no odds, having a ticket is not a proof of payment after an offense was committed. Whats stopping you from asking another motorist for their used ticket after you discovered the fine. An old trick.

Rushwan

Hi again, I now think it's time to put this one to bed-have been in touch with the small claims court, they say that as car was clamped on private property the only option would be to take a civil case against NCPS which I am not prepared to do. I had a witness that my ticket had fallen to the floor of the car, as I had offered my neighbour a lift home from station, I wouldn't dream of trying to make a refund request if I had asked another motorist for their ticket as another poster suggested it was possible to do.

I have heard recently that Irish Rail are supposed to be using any money left over from clamping company to improve parking at stations-what a joke! The parking facilities at Rush and Lusk station leave an awful lot to be desired, and there are going to be ongoing works from now til November to make the station wheelchair accessible, with some parking restrictions in place. Why oh why couldn't they have opened the new car parking spaces on Lusk side before all this work starts?

Anyway thanks to all for your advice and comments on the clamping issue.

dnally1983

Hello everybody,

I have a small group of people who have had similar issues with NCPS. We have received no response from NCPS in our request for a refund.

In each situation, there was inadequate signage highlighting the fact that clamping was in operation in the area. We have photographic evidence of this, along with our correspondance with NCPS.

We are now progressing to take NCPS to court to recoup the clamping fees unfairly levied upon us.

If anyone else wishes to be involved in this action, please can you e-mail david.nally@three.ie with your details & we will enter into discussion regarding the matter.

We are making our submission on 18/08/2009. Anyone wishing to join us will need to get their details in before close of business on 17/08/2009.

soc

dinnerlady wrote: »

The majority of carpark's now give fifteen minute's grace on parking to account for no change or short stays.

A word of warning - this is not strictly true in regards to WATERFORD.

My husband received a parking fine while he was going to the post office to get change.

He wrote a letter of appeal concerning the ticket, providing a copy of receipt from PO that exactly matched the timestamp of parking fine - thus proving they gave no grace period whatsoever. Waterford City Council refused the appeal. He then rang them, and they blatantly told him that they have no grace period when it comes to obtaining a ticket for your car, and that you must have change on you there and then for said ticket. Naturally my husband was pretty pi$$ed at their response, and refused to pay fine - he was eventually taken to court, and matter was dropped thanks to a solicitor friend that he bumped into at the courthouse.

...and they wonder why business is dropping in Waterford City Centre :rolleyes:

Amston

I'm in a very similar situation as the OP. When I closed my car door my ticket blew off my dashboard on to the passenger seat and I was clamped by NCPS...

I'm still trying to get my €125.00 back but they are having none of it.

I've explained that the ticket was visible from outside my car as I could see it on the seat as I walked back to my car that day.

NCPS have ticket holders that you stick to your windscreen which you can get from the ticket desk at the train stations. I wasn't aware that these existed until after my car was clamped (I spotted one on someone elses car). I really think they should have made these available to commuters i.e. handed them out to people or at least put up signs to let people know where you could get your hands on one.

Lastly their rules state that you cannot park outside of parking spaces, in yellow boxes etc. or you will be clamped. However, every day without fail I see people parking on the verges along the railings in yellow boxes and so on... I don't understand why these cars are not clamped as they are breaking the 'NCPS Rules' also....

It happened a couple of months ago and my blood still boils when I think about it

wtk2007

Amston wrote: »

NCPS have ticket holders that you stick to your windscreen which you can get from the ticket desk at the train stations. I wasn't aware that these existed until after my car was clamped (I spotted one on someone elses car). I really think they should have made these available to commuters i.e. handed them out to people or at least put up signs to let people know where you could get your hands on one.

Tickets should be "Credit Card" size and made from card just like train tickets! or self adhesive.
2 inch squares of the thinnest thermal receipt paper wont stay on your dash board as I learned the hard way today at Maynooth Station. Its a money making scam! It must happen to hundreds of drivers!!!!

Cabaal

wtk2007 wrote: »

Tickets should be "Credit Card" size and made from card just like train tickets! or self adhesive.
2 inch squares of the thinnest thermal receipt paper wont stay on your dash board as I learned the hard way today at Maynooth Station. Its a money making scam! It must happen to hundreds of drivers!!!!

You want it made out of different material with sticky stuff on it?
Then expect it to be that little bit more expensive to buy it.

Just secure it yourself, its not very hard to do...

tallus

dnally1983 wrote: »

Hello everybody,

I have a small group of people who have had similar issues with NCPS. We have received no response from NCPS in our request for a refund.

In each situation, there was inadequate signage highlighting the fact that clamping was in operation in the area. We have photographic evidence of this, along with our correspondance with NCPS.

We are now progressing to take NCPS to court to recoup the clamping fees unfairly levied upon us.

If anyone else wishes to be involved in this action, please can you e-mail david.nally@three.ie with your details & we will enter into discussion regarding the matter.

We are making our submission on 18/08/2009. Anyone wishing to join us will need to get their details in before close of business on 17/08/2009.

How did it go on monday ?

jor el

Cabaal wrote: »

Just secure it yourself, its not very hard to do...

Blu-tak on the dash would do it. Or just stick the ticket down between the window glass and the dash, that holds it in place for me anyway.

1635barry

I make it a point to never to take a ticket off the dash of my work van after i use one.so when the clampers come round looking for tickets theres probably about 200 on it.I just like to think it p$sses them off just a small bit checking all the dates and times.:D

kida

1635barry wrote: »

I make it a point to never to take a ticket off the dash of my work van after i use one.so when the clampers come round looking for tickets theres probably about 200 on it.I just like to think it p$sses them off just a small bit checking all the dates and times.:D

and then you get one in a bad mood who claims he can't find it and gives you a fine - how do you prove it was visible :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

kida wrote: »

and then you get one in a bad mood who claims he can't find it and gives you a fine - how do you prove it was visible :rolleyes:

you take a picture of it between all the other tickets which will prove you are a regular payer, and it is then up to the clampers to prove it was not visible! do they take a picture of your vehicle to prove tickets are not visible?