Thick / Incompetent / Lazy?

ballistic

I am sick to the teeth with the service that the Gardai of this country provide when it comes to Firearms administration.

I am not a criminal, I am not disrespectful to them, I dont call them pigs, I dont abuse them, so why dont they do their job properly (with regard to firearms licencing).

I have had a number of firearms over the last twelve years and have had many dealings with many Gardai. In that time I dealt with one Garda that knew his stuff and sadly he has now retired.

I am sick and tired of being nice when they fob me off or pass the book to another garda. Gardai have filled me with lies that I know to be false and I just smile and nod and come back on the next shift in the hope of meeting a slightly more competent Garda. Yes I do of course acknowledge that they have a tough job and that there are far more important aspects to their job than firearms admistration

I will now give you a few examples

I applied for an export order this year, it took 9 phone calls and three visits to the station over the course of five weeks. In the end I had to go to a firearms dealer and get a copy of an export/removal order and show it to them (so they knew what one looked like). A week later they rang telling me that the order was ready. When I went into the station they presented me with the one that I had previously presented as an example (it had a different persons name on it). When they finally got it for me they put the wrong serial number on it. Oh ya they delayed me an hour saying "jaz we're flat out have you anything to do around the town for a hour"

In some situations I have had to tell Gardai what procedure was to be followed with regard to ammendments and renewals.

A Gard told a person I know that only a handfull of people in wexford with moderators and that they were only for people who fired near houses. He then said "sure get one and I will say nothing work away sure".

One day in Garda training college would teach them everything they need to know?

Should we just assert ourselves and say thats fine Im going to contact the Garda ombudsman or just say "you are 100% wrong Garda, I now wish to make an appointment to see the superintendent" I mean if being nice doesnt work?

So I ask you are they thick/incompetent/lazy or all three

Please feel free to add your encounters with the people who panic when they see a FORM.

jwshooter

i have to deal with the same bunch , i have one them recorded verbally abusing me telling me lies .
i do not ring them now unless i record the conversation in my nokia .

i have the cpo shouting at me and the supers clerk telling me lies .

im 4 months waiting on a response about a sak mod for my .22

i know many guys that have mods for rims and fulls ,i have them for my full bores.
they know i recorded them as i used it to get <him> to sign off on my .22 licence.
this district is a joke.

cavan shooter

I am very lucky in that the Gardai I have dealt with over the years have been all very reasonable. I think however that your first step might be a meeting with the Superintendent in relation to your issues.

Their is an avenue of complaint posted on the garda website which eventually leads to the Garda ombudsman. The GOC might be an option but I would think that their proprities might lead you to being more frustrated. They are dealing with some serious shlt and are way under staffed

Unfortunately when some people get into a position of power they think that they can shout, abuse walk all over you. Never get angry put everything in writing, use your representative body.

I dont think it's fair to call them all Thick/incompetent/Lazy. Some are brilliant, helpful, they are under pressure the most part and dont have sufficient information or knowledge about firearms in the first place. Its not like we have a dedicated Fire arms and explosives officer like in the uk. Its normally the SIC (Sergeant in charge ) that looks after the license. There is in all Government bodies (I worked for the government) the attitude of dont be too helpful and eventually they'll Fluick off, have you tried get a straight answer on anything from a government body.

It's a case of wearing you down, I again recommend a dosier of communication between them and you and tie them to dates, then at least they will look unreasonable and you reasonable.

Trojan911

Garda Ombudsman to make your complaint. You are spot on about fob offs, I'm sure it is taught up in Templemore at some stage during the training... .

If you know you are being fobbed off, then challenge it straight away, let them know you are not going to tolerate it. Ask to speak to the Duty Officer or ask for the name of the Super before leaving. Take the officers shoulder number and them ask them for the Garda Ombudsmans address. Be polite.

However, most are efficient & hardworking and I'm glad to say my FO Skipper is one of them. Never had a bother with him.

Dusty87

Careful there JW, afaik its illegal to record someone without them knowing so your recording would be pretty much useless. Open to correction but last time i checked it was illegal

ballistic

I am not anti Garda I simply wish that there were standard, consistent, fair and transparent procedures in place.

jwshooter

Dusty87 wrote: »

Careful there JW, afaik its illegal to record someone without them knowing so your recording would be pretty much useless. Open to correction but last time i checked it was illegal

possibly dusty ,it would be interesting to see them making a bigger <fool> of themselves by demanding my phone.

i think its not illegal to tape some one but its not admissible in court i think.

lordarpad

jwshooter wrote: »

possibly dusty ,it would be interesting to see them making a bigger <fool> of themselves by demanding my phone.

i think its not illegal to tape some one but its not admissible in court i think.

not sure - not in a criminal suit, no. But a civil one?

Grizzly 45

No perfectly legal to do so,so long as you inform the other parties concerned.Thats why you have these"Your phone call may be recorded for training or other purposes."messages on Govt and banks and corporations phone lines.

Of course no doubt no Garda will then talk to you then ,just as much as they wont talk to you if you pitch up with your solicitor to have a chat about things,.....Intresting that.

However,it is standard practise in the busisness world to record conversations regarding busisness deals and whatnot so that no one can dispute established facts.You can always "forget" to switch off your dictaphone too.
As for court admissability,unless it is in relation to a crime or a piece of crucial evidence.NO unless the judge anddefence/prosecution allow it and think it is viable evidence.

arrowloopboy

Try the samaratins guys,i'm sure they'll listen:D:D:D

Joking aside men,my experiences have been pritty simular

ironsight

Well I played the softly softly card with the Gardai in Coolock for a year, constant FOB off's and plain old lies from the Officer and Super.

Eventually I got sick and tired of them, so I made an official complaint to the Ombudsman and had a Solicitors letter delivered on the same date as the complaint was issued to the members responsible.

Strange but the Officer dealing with it called my firearms dealer 2 days later in a fould mood, but he had my license and Article 7.

The only way to deal with them is Pressure them.

ballistic

Very good Ironsight. This confirms what I suspected. Had you any hassle since?

kakashka

jwshooter wrote: »

im 4 months waiting on a response about a sak mod for my .22

i know many guys that have mods for rims and fulls ,i have them for my full bores.
they know i recorded them as i used it to get <him> to sign off on my .22 licence.
this district is a joke.

Correct me if i'm wrong JWya but did i not see a pic of your .22 recently amongst a pile of rabbits with mod fitted?..

As for incompetence,i deal with our Guard's regularly and generally no problems,odd lad that just doesnt give a fiddlers about anything,guns,crime whatever but overall ok,i think it's more a lack of understanding and knoledge with the rest

jwshooter

kakashka wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong JWya but did i not see a pic of your .22 recently amongst a pile of rabbits with mod fitted?..

As for incompetence,i deal with our Guard's regularly and generally no problems,odd lad that just doesnt give a fiddlers about anything,guns,crime whatever but overall ok,i think it's more a lack of understanding and knoledge with the rest

you sure did i told the sargent that i have it and im using it and i want a permit for it .
that was in april no word on the permit yet

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

you sure did i told the sargent that i have it and im using it and i want a permit for it .
that was in april no word on the permit yet

With a silky silver-tongued approach like that? My word, I wonder what could possibly have caused the delay?

Trojan911

ironsight wrote: »

Well I played the softly softly card with the Gardai in Coolock for a year, constant FOB off's and plain old lies from the Officer and Super.

Eventually I got sick and tired of them, so I made an official complaint to the Ombudsman and had a Solicitors letter delivered on the same date as the complaint was issued to the members responsible.

Strange but the Officer dealing with it called my firearms dealer 2 days later in a fould mood, but he had my license and Article 7.

The only way to deal with them is Pressure them.

Good on you for taking the strong stance & not allowing yourself to be pushed around. However, it still is a crying shame that you had to go to those lenghts to get what you are entitled to apply for.

It appears you recieved a shoddy service and from reading other posts, not specific to this one or forum, you are not alone.

Pity more people wouldn't follow your lead as it would identify a trend which the Ombudsman would highlight and have it addressed when they throw out their annual stats.

Half-cocked

ballistic wrote: »

Very good Ironsight. This confirms what I suspected. Had you any hassle since?

I wouldn't be doing any driving without making sure the tread depth on my tyres was Ok and all lights working;)

But seriously, now that we have a Garda Ombudsman, lets make full use of it when we're being treated like pieces of sh*t every time we have to deal with the Gardai over firearms issues. I know most gardai aren't fully familiar with the licensing process and it is such a small part of their work load that its hard to justify putting resourced into training but there is no excuse for being rude and telling porkies to the people you are there to serve (and who pay Garda wages through tax).

I've lived in 3 different Garda divisions and have to say the way I was treated in each was respectively : slow but acceptable, downright terrible and excellent. Interestingly, the current area which provides excellent service to gun owners also has the worst crime rate in Dublin. At least the Gardai here differentiate between criminals and lawful firearms owners.

Sparks

And let's go to the Firearms Policy Unit before going to the Ombudsman perhaps...

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

With a silky silver-tongued approach like that? My word, I wonder what could possibly have caused the delay?

are you posting that as a mod or some trying to be <silly>.
i gave the super a written request for the sak back in april like i have said before.

Sparks

I'm pointing out jw, that you've confessed (forcibly, even) to a Garda Superintendent that you've broken the Firearms Act and are in possession of an unlicenced firearm, and you're complaining about his inefficency in granting your application.

Seriously jw, do you not get that you owe the guy a favour already? You're breaking the law. And he's cutting you some slack and all you can do is rag on him in public?

Not smart.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

I'm pointing out jw, that you've confessed (forcibly, even) to a Garda Superintendent that you've broken the Firearms Act and are in possession of an unlicenced firearm, and you're complaining about his inefficency in granting your application.

Seriously jw, do you not get that you owe the guy a favour already? You're breaking the law. And he's cutting you some slack and all you can do is rag on him in public?

Not smart.

i told the sargent i have mod , after 3 months looking for the note from the super.

i dont want favours from the super ,i want him to his job and treat every one the same.
this division are delebertly fxxkxxg around with the firearm end of things.

you never answered my question ? you are stirring hear the hole time and then sending snotty PMs and handing out infractions.
as a mod you should not have a opinion on threads or try to force your opinions on others.you can be helpful or have your say but dont use your little bit of power to walk over others.
also i have noticed if your not getting your way you close the thread but not till you get the last word in.

please dont send me another PM as my in box if full of your PMs

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

With a silky silver-tongued approach like that? My word, I wonder what could possibly have caused the delay?

jwshooter wrote: »

also i have noticed if your not getting your way you close the thread but not till you get the last word in.

please dont send me another PM as my in box if full of your PMs

You guys really should get a room

bunny shooter

Seems JW has taken over my mantle of Sparks tormentor

bunny shooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

Seems JW has taken over my mantle of Sparks tormentor

I'm sure you'll be able to get it back.

I believe in you!

Hibrion

Had a seriously long delay with my 10 22 recently but that was, as I found out, the fault of headquarters and not the local lads in Gorey.
All in all they have been good to deal with, at least with me anyway.

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

i told the sargent i have mod , after 3 months looking for the note from the super.

And you don't see the issue there?

i dont want favours from the super ,i want him to his job and treat every one the same.
this division are delebertly fxxkxxg around with the firearm end of things.

*sigh*
jw, if the Sargent did his job, as stipulated by the Firearms Acts, you would be in jail right now. For possession of an unlicenced firearm.
Can you not see this?
You are required by law to have a licence or an authorisation for your moderator. If you have a mod and no licence or authorisation, you're breaking the law - and it is not the Gardai's "fault" for not getting a licence to you.

*shakes head*

as a mod you should not have a opinion on threads or try to force your opinions on others.you can be helpful or have your say but dont use your little bit of power to walk over others. also i have noticed if your not getting your way you close the thread but not till you get the last word in.
please dont send me another PM as my in box if full of your PMs

/facepalm
JW, if you don't want PMs, don't send me PMs. And if you want to put your opinion out there and not have anyone comment on it, go to http://www.wordpress.com and get a blog and turn the comments off, because you don't get to say who can and can't have an opinion here. And if you've a problem with that, then it's clearly spelt out in the forum charter what to do about it - and that's the third time I've had to tell you all this.

Sparks

Okay, could we get back to the topic now please?

fish slapped

Back several years ago I applied for a .22lr. The FO said give me 3-4 weeks, so 4 weeks later I gave him a buzz, " no, no word yet!" 2 weeks later and "no, no word yet!" 2 weeks later and I went into the station and asked him was there any movement on that application. He then opened the drawer in his desk took it out in the same envelop I had given it to him in said "NO, no word yet!!" and flung it into the drawer with a chuckle.:mad::mad::mad:

I rang my super and made an appointment to see him that evening. I brought my 8 year old son with me and the super started a conversation with my son about offaly football :rolleyes:. Then he turned to me and asked how he could help me? So I explained my situation, to which he replied "Give me 1 minute" he turned and rang my local station and spoke to the Sergent and in front of me said "(Name) will you take that off that F**king eejit and sort it out FOR ME quickly" he then apologised and said I would have the licence soon.

That meeting took place on a Monday, on Wednesday morning I got a call saying the licence was in the station.


Unfortunately the super has moved on but luckily the other <Garda> has retired. The FO I have now is not to bad.

FS

ballistic

Thats interesting fish slapped. Wouldnt it be great if we didnt have to give out? I live for hunting, shooting and the outdoors I hate having to fight or give out about anyone.

In conclusion I do not think that Gardai are thick / incompetent / lazy. I think there are two problems

apathy in some cases (why I dont know? possibly due to lack of accountability? busy work load? lack of delegation?)

lack of training in the finer detail or lack of retraining /supervision.

I think both these give rise to delays, mistakes and misinformation.


Thats my opinion anyway. I also acknowledge the good work done by the many Gardai (based on some of the possitive replys).

mister gullible

I recently changed from .22 to .17 hmr. Brought licence to local station, saw FO, got licence changed by hand and initialled. Took 2 minutes. Had pleasant chat about guns and shooting, went home happy. I know it's only rimfire but was surprised how easy it was. I'm not a big Garda fan but have to give credit where it's due.

alan123

Sparks wrote: »

With a silky silver-tongued approach like that? My word, I wonder what could possibly have caused the delay?

Funny Sparks, Funny!!! It made me laugh anyway! You hit the nail on the head.

gofaster_s13

Incompetance is the norm where firearms officers are concerned, my first shotgun licence took 18 months to process, my second shotgun licence took over a year I eventually got a cover letter from the guards to pick it up, after a further six months and no sign of a licence I went back to the station only to be told no application had ever been submitted for the gun, my third shotgun licence took about eight months and when it was issued it had all the details of my second gun so basically I had two licenses for the same gun My .223 was the quickest, it only took 6 months to come through:rolleyes: but it was a lot of hassle as they kept looking for deer permits among other strange requests. In all honesty how hard can the job be, its just regarded in the force as a burden and the FAO's have no interest or understanding of the job.