Munster sign French Prop

2040

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/9777.php

Hmmm.

Depp

could be a good signing...never know

tbaymusicman

Whether it will be good for munster or not will be seen but im sure it will be good for braugnauts career

wixfjord

Someone explain to me how this is allowed? As far as I can see Munster are now 2 above their NIQ quota at least until xmas?

tbaymusicman

wixfjord wrote: »

Someone explain to me how this is allowed? As far as I can see Munster are now 2 above their NIQ quota at least until xmas?

Quite you :P:P

wixfjord

tbaymusicman wrote: »

Quite you :P:P

Quiet you!

:pac:

2040

Seven is a bit much alright. I was okay with it up until De Villiers. It's a real shame Timmy Ryan went to France.

However, i think all this is indicative of the new importance given to the magners league this year. I think the playoffs will make it a far more competitive competition. Munster bulking up their squad like this is an acknowledgement of that.

tbaymusicman

wixfjord wrote: »

Quiet you!

:pac:

Dam my spelling haha i meant very you i swear:P

Stev_o

Isn't this the same guy who when we came on for France in 2008 got absolutely destroyed in the scrums resulting in a penalty try.

Tim Robbins

tbaymusicman wrote: »

Dam my spelling haha i meant very you i swear:P

Ok so it's 3 elite players and 3 non elites so for Munster is it?
Munster Elites: Julien Brugnaut, JDV, Howlett
Munster non - elities: Mafi?, Warwick, Nick Williams
Temps: Toby Morland,
Manning - Irish qualified?

Correct?

for Leinster it's

Elites: VDL, Hines, ?
Non elites: Isa, Beirne, ?

Whitake, Contemponi, Elsom gone, so we'll probably be signing one or two more before the season starts.

Correct?

2040

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok so it's 3 elite players and 3 non elites so for Munster is it?
Munster Elites: Julien Brugnaut, JDV, Howlett
Munster non - elities: Mafi?, Warwick, Nick Williams
Temps: Toby Morland,
Manning - Irish qualified?

Correct?

for Leinster it's

Elites: VDL, Hines, ?
Non elites: Isa, Beirne, ?

Whitake, Contemponi, Elsom gone, so we'll probably be signing one or two more before the season starts.

Correct?

Julien Brugnaut is, by no stretch of the imagination, an elite, in fairness.

edit: and stan wright is still at leinster afaik.
reedit: actually no he's gone.

Tim Robbins

2040 wrote: »

Julien Brugnaut is, by no stretch of the imagination, an elite, in fairness.

French international? If he's not that would mean Munster can sign another elite player.

I suspect it all goes on how the players are paid.

Stev_o

Tim Robbins wrote: »

French international? If he's not that would mean Munster can sign another elite player.

I suspect it all goes on how the players are paid.

Tim Isa is elite then since he is technically capped by Fiji.

[Jackass]

I'm nothing short of astonished by this signing!!

Timmy Ryan being let go is looking more and more like a big faux pas by Munster. I thought the days of Munster signing a prop were well and truly gone, but not just in foriegn signings, in Irish ones also, they've signed 2 backrow players also in the last 12 months.

Add to that the countless signings in the backs, I've got to be honest, but I know I bring it up often enough, but Munster are producing nothing at the moment...any academy player leaving or not making it is resulting in a signing at this stage, as are retirements or players leaving.

This is of grave concern for Irish rugby in the longer term, but immediate term, for Munster themselves. Is he a 1 or a 3 as a matter of interest? I'd imagine at this stage (no disrespect) that either Horan OR Hayes could be put under serious pressure with any sort of competition for their jersey...you've got potentially 6 of the regualr startes in Munster as foreign players (Brugnaut, Williams, Mafi, JDV, Howlett, Warrwick) and depending on how things go, a further 2 Leinster lads in Felix Jones and Neill Ronan (Leamy hasn't been up to much for a while and could well lose out and with Quinlan getting on Wallace could be at 6, Williams at 8 and Ronan at 7) .... that's more than half of the team not being Munster prodcuts...then on the bench you've got guys like Toby Morland, Jeremy Manning .... up to 10 in the strongest 22 who are not Munster products...even throw in Hurley and Dowling who didn't learn their trade in Munster, and that's over half of a match day 22.

Now I've mentioned this stuff before, and people might see it as taking a swipe at Munster, it's not at all, but it's deffinitley a VERY valid talking point...I mean, this is getting serious now...if it wasn't for Earls, you could nearly ask the question of whether or not Munster have an academy...I think the problem with Earls is, he's one of the most talented players at his age you'll see in a generation, so he's putting a VERY shiny gloss on a quite serious situation......

There was even a thread about the best "All Ireland" team each province can put out...and Leinster are looking like they can quite comfortably put out a team capable of competeing at the highest level in Europe with nothing but Irish players (only postions in strongest 15 where there wont be Irish is probably going to be 3, where there's back up of Ross, and 14, where there's endless back-up, but most notably Horgan...a former Lion!)

Now honestly lads, not trying to get into any flame wars at all here...just like if we were talking about Ireland at international level you might compare them to peers such as England or Wales etc., the main rivals, this is just to compare to Munsters closest rival, but from the Munster lads, is this becoming a grave concern or not? No one is looking for one-up-manship here or anything, but I'm amazed by all of this!

This is a massive season in the context of Munster rugby. There's young lads after being promoted to the squad, and the Munster stronghold of players are ALL over 30....something is going to have to give here....either Munster will have a ridiculos amount of signings in their 15, or players will be delaying retirement to ridiculos levels, or a ridiculos amount of young talent will have to come through in 2 or 3 seasons...but something is going to give here....

Stev_o

Well they are just feeling the effects of their own development, the main bulk of Munster's starting XV have been playing for the best part of 8 years for some and others 6 with little or no change. Thus we have the situation where they have a very big group of players who have years of experience at very high level and then another group which is completely under experienced. It would be suicide for Munster to suddenly drop the likes of ROG, Stringer, Horan, DOC, Hayes,Quinlan, Flannery and POC in other to bring through new young players.

Kidney though during 2007/8 used the ML to give some game time to fringe players but i mean honestly the only noticeable return was TOL and Ronan. They haven't faced the problem like Leisnter or Ulster where a main player had retired or got a long term injury and had to be immediately replaced and in a way it was a blessing as it helped have a core group of high level players who were always fit.

2040

I am slightly concerned but i really think it's too early for it to be considered a problem. There are some promising players coming through at the moment and an awful lot can happen in a season. To the casual observer Keith Earls came out of nowhere. I'm optimistic about Ciaran O Boyle, Tommy O Donnell, Darragh Hurley and Dave Ryan. We'll just have to see.

And yeah, there was always going to be a bit of a hangover from having the Irish first 10 on the team.

jumpguy

I'm a Munster supporter and I'm getting abit concerned about this. We're beginning to sign too much international players now imo. Eventually, it'll be just a case of foreign players winning tbh. :-/

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

I'm nothing short of astonished by this signing!!

Timmy Ryan being let go is looking more and more like a big faux pas by Munster. I thought the days of Munster signing a prop were well and truly gone, but not just in foriegn signings, in Irish ones also, they've signed 2 backrow players also in the last 12 months.

Add to that the countless signings in the backs, I've got to be honest, but I know I bring it up often enough, but Munster are producing nothing at the moment...any academy player leaving or not making it is resulting in a signing at this stage, as are retirements or players leaving.

This is of grave concern for Irish rugby in the longer term, but immediate term, for Munster themselves. Is he a 1 or a 3 as a matter of interest? I'd imagine at this stage (no disrespect) that either Horan OR Hayes could be put under serious pressure with any sort of competition for their jersey...you've got potentially 6 of the regualr startes in Munster as foreign players (Brugnaut, Williams, Mafi, JDV, Howlett, Warrwick) and depending on how things go, a further 2 Leinster lads in Felix Jones and Neill Ronan (Leamy hasn't been up to much for a while and could well lose out and with Quinlan getting on Wallace could be at 6, Williams at 8 and Ronan at 7) .... that's more than half of the team not being Munster prodcuts...then on the bench you've got guys like Toby Morland, Jeremy Manning .... up to 10 in the strongest 22 who are not Munster products...even throw in Hurley and Dowling who didn't learn their trade in Munster, and that's over half of a match day 22.

Now I've mentioned this stuff before, and people might see it as taking a swipe at Munster, it's not at all, but it's deffinitley a VERY valid talking point...I mean, this is getting serious now...if it wasn't for Earls, you could nearly ask the question of whether or not Munster have an academy...I think the problem with Earls is, he's one of the most talented players at his age you'll see in a generation, so he's putting a VERY shiny gloss on a quite serious situation......

There was even a thread about the best "All Ireland" team each province can put out...and Leinster are looking like they can quite comfortably put out a team capable of competeing at the highest level in Europe with nothing but Irish players (only postions in strongest 15 where there wont be Irish is probably going to be 3, where there's back up of Ross, and 14, where there's endless back-up, but most notably Horgan...a former Lion!)

Now honestly lads, not trying to get into any flame wars at all here...just like if we were talking about Ireland at international level you might compare them to peers such as England or Wales etc., the main rivals, this is just to compare to Munsters closest rival, but from the Munster lads, is this becoming a grave concern or not? No one is looking for one-up-manship here or anything, but I'm amazed by all of this!

This is a massive season in the context of Munster rugby. There's young lads after being promoted to the squad, and the Munster stronghold of players are ALL over 30....something is going to have to give here....either Munster will have a ridiculos amount of signings in their 15, or players will be delaying retirement to ridiculos levels, or a ridiculos amount of young talent will have to come through in 2 or 3 seasons...but something is going to give here....

No offence, but you don't know a huge amount about Munster rugby.

For example, Munster didn't let Tim Ryan go, he was out of contract and refused another one.

Toby Morland was signed because two of three scrumhalves are injured, and the other will probably be in the Irish squad. The two injured scrumhalves are O'Leary and Williams.

Our back up props this year would have been Dave Ryan (completely inexperienced) Darragh Hurley (recovering from neck surgery) and Buckley (injury prone and probably in the irish squads).

In the backrow we've always had a foreign player, we signed Jim Williams when we already had Wallace, Quinlan and Foley. We've given contracts to young guys like Holland and O'Donnell this year.

You say you aren't trying to start a flame war and then go on about Leinster born players like Ronan, Jones, Hurley and Dowling. A bit of honesty on your part would see that Fogarty, Ross, Reddan, Hogan and Keogh came through the Munster system before ending up in Leinster. Clearly you do want to start a boring "Munster are awful, Leinster are great" thread.

I don't deny we have to work harder on bringing through young backs, but overall, we're still in great health.

anonymous_joe

In fairness, before anyone says something stupid, Munster has less people playing rugby in it than Leinster or Ulster (check the IRFU's annual report for the numbers.)

In terms of player numbers they've always been third, in terms of success in teh overall pro-era they've been first. That is overachieving in fairness. The calibre of player they've had is very high, and anyone would struggle to replace them.

The loss of Ryan now does look a bit silly. Why wasn't he willing to stay, why wasn't he guarenteed game time or money or whatever, or is he not good enough? (I've no idea.)

In the long term, of the three big Irish provinces, Munster were always going to be the one with the greatest reliance on imports, and that's fair enough.

Anyway, for the right price, this could be quite a canny signing. If it works out fair play to Munster.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

In fairness, before anyone says something stupid, Munster has less people playing rugby in it than Leinster or Ulster (check the IRFU's annual report for the numbers.)

In terms of player numbers they've always been third, in terms of success in teh overall pro-era they've been first. That is overachieving in fairness. The calibre of player they've had is very high, and anyone would struggle to replace them.

The loss of Ryan now does look a bit silly. Why wasn't he willing to stay, why wasn't he guarenteed game time or money or whatever, or is he not good enough? (I've no idea.)

In the long term, of the three big Irish provinces, Munster were always going to be the one with the greatest reliance on imports, and that's fair enough.

Anyway, for the right price, this could be quite a canny signing. If it works out fair play to Munster.

Ryan wanted more gametime, Munster couldn't give it to him. Simple as. Same as happened Reddan before him.

We do have the less players but we've more top clubs. People give out about this signing, i think it's far worse than a club like Clontarf has decided to buy in 15 players to buy the AIL rather than invest that money into it's underage section.

remus808

Stev_o wrote: »

Tim Isa is elite then since he is technically capped by Fiji.

I would be suprised if Isa wasn't considered elite, given his S14 experience and Fiji cap as you mentioned. He seemed to think he would be in the All Black setup (presumably Maoris or JAB, realistically) had Fiji not capped him. He has refused to play for Fiji since as far as I know.

Nukem

I think everyone needs to take deep breath and relax on the whole topic of Munster/Leinster foreign player involvement. Honestly think the saying "don't throw stones in glass houses" comes into play here.

1. Munster let Ryan go silly move (-1)
2. Leinster let Jones go (-1)
3. Leinster let Ronan go (-1)
4. Munster sign French prop (-1)
5. Warrick sits on bench for long parts of season(-1)
6. Playing Kearney on Wing instead of fullback for long parts of season (-1)
7. and on and on and on .................

All this talk detracts from the fact that the personnel coming through on both teams and indeed other provinces just won a Churchill Cup. Also consider the A province tournament staring soon and the amount of players who will get proper blooding to competitive rugby and feed into the main teams.

People have to remember that Ireland heavily depend on these two teams to fuel the national team and its inevitable that they need to sign Elite players to cover during internationals. Munster would not have won the HC without foreigners and neither would Leinster so lets just call it a draw:P

MickTipp

is this french lad actually any good ???

Tim Robbins

Nukem wrote: »

its inevitable that they need to sign Elite players to cover during internationals.

I have heard this reason several times and it's a chimera my friends.
There are no provincial matches on during the internationals.

As for Munster, well what's clear is that there just isn't much young blood coming through. How far have Munster come since their first HC final until now? There were able to make their first final with one player not registered for Ireland. Now they need 6 or 7. Note I remember reading a similar point about Gloucester and thinking that would never happen in Irish Rugby.

Could you imagine Munster making a final with only one overseas player now - I couldn't?

Yes you could make similar points for Leinster. The Matt Williams team which should have won a HC, how many overseas players? not many.

Lads, we're trying to stay at the top by living of the rugby hype bubble. We all know there's been a lot of blow ins to rugby in last few years because the teams have been doing well, they won't stay in the rainy days. This reminds me of the property boom - let's hope it doesn't end in tears...

I'd much prefer to see clear goals from the IRFU for grass roots:
1.X number of clubs to have floodlights by such and such a year
2.Y number of clubs to have access to weights
3.Z number of clubs to have over 50 registered players
4.X number of schools playing the game
5.Y number of competitive leagues for the youth leagues
6.Z retention rate of players over 18.

Sort out the grass roots and we're much better off.
Instead the goals seem to be
1. Munster and Leinster must qualify for the HC for the last 8 every year.
2. One of these teams should be in the final.
3. If these teams are incapable of doing this from Irish players, they must get players from abroad to do so.
4. If young lads aren't getting a chance in the province system because that might mean goals 1 and 2 aren't met - it doesn't matter.
5. If Ireland don't have back up players for key positions, it doesn't matter because goals 1 and 2 are more important.
6. Get everyone playing Tag Rugby.

razorblunt

Bit of an overreaction on the Ryan part, they guy never troubled the first team at any stage during the season. No point keeping him really same could be said for O'Sullivan.

Still a bit worrying with the increasing number of foreign players coming in, I still cant see what Nick Williams adds to the team.

Amazotheamazing

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I have heard this reason several times and it's a chimera my friends.
There are no provincial matches on during the internationals.

As for Munster, well what's clear is that there just isn't much young blood coming through. How far have Munster come since their first HC final until now? There were able to make their first final with one player not registered for Ireland. Now they need 6 or 7. Note I remember reading a similar point about Gloucester and thinking that would never happen in Irish Rugby.

Could you imagine Munster making a final with only one overseas player now - I couldn't?

Yes you could make similar points for Leinster. The Matt Williams team which should have won a HC, how many overseas players? not many.

Lads, we're trying to stay at the top by living of the rugby hype bubble. We all know there's been a lot of blow ins to rugby in last few years because the teams have been doing well, they won't stay in the rainy days. This reminds me of the property boom - let's hope it doesn't end in tears...

Sort out the grass roots and we're much better off.
Instead the goals seem to be
1. Munster and Leinster must qualify for the HC for the last 8 every year.
2. One of these teams should be in the final.
3. If these teams are incapable of doing this from Irish players, they must get players from abroad to do so.
4. If young lads aren't getting a chance in the province system because that might mean goals 1 and 2 aren't met - it doesn't matter.
5. If Ireland don't have back up players for key positions, it doesn't matter because goals 1 and 2 are more important.
6. Get everyone playing Tag Rugby.

Don't know what the situation is like outside of Munster, but the Munster branch do massive work in promoting the game here. 30 development officers, new school programmes being set up, schools, youths and cadets, etc. This year they've set up training camps for talented players all around the province to give them the basics in nutrition and weight training.

There's been new clubs established all around Munster and the traditional clubs are reporting huge increases in underage players. I really think Munster are on the verge of a bringing through another generation of top class players. All the kids that joined rugby clubs after the 2000 final are coming through the schools now.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ryan wanted more gametime, Munster couldn't give it to him. Simple as. Same as happened Reddan before him.

We do have the less players but we've more top clubs. People give out about this signing, i think it's far worse than a club like Clontarf has decided to buy in 15 players to buy the AIL rather than invest that money into it's underage section.

Hmmm. Be interesting to see how Ryan's sojourn in la belle pays goes. Wonder would Munster have given him much gametime. Is Ryan a loosehead or tighthead by the way? And this new lad?

I don't know enough about the AIL to comment really.

Nukem wrote: »

I think everyone needs to take deep breath and relax on the whole topic of Munster/Leinster foreign player involvement. Honestly think the saying "don't throw stones in glass houses" comes into play here.

1. Munster let Ryan go silly move (-1)
2. Leinster let Jones go (-1)
3. Leinster let Ronan go (-1)
4. Munster sign French prop (-1)
5. Warrick sits on bench for long parts of season(-1)
6. Playing Kearney on Wing instead of fullback for long parts of season (-1)
7. and on and on and on .................

All this talk detracts from the fact that the personnel coming through on both teams and indeed other provinces just won a Churchill Cup. Also consider the A province tournament staring soon and the amount of players who will get proper blooding to competitive rugby and feed into the main teams.

People have to remember that Ireland heavily depend on these two teams to fuel the national team and its inevitable that they need to sign Elite players to cover during internationals. Munster would not have won the HC without foreigners and neither would Leinster so lets just call it a draw:P

I actually think some of the players you list there are interesting. I mean, the likes of Niall Ronan were let go because they weren't seen to make it, same could be said of Shane Jennings and Niall Ronan who in and around a similar timeframe were outshone by others, both of whom have now gone on to become important players for their province (well Jennings is, Ronan's less important, but has made a mark.).

Lots of things that seem sensible at the time look idiotic now (losing Ross, Felix Jones, Reddan, Ronan, etc.).

Also, I can imagine Ulster's importance growing and growing. They've definitely underachieved in recent years and the likes of Stephen Ferris and even Paddy Wallace show that there are still cracking players up there. Let's not forget the effervescent Tommy Bowe.

[Jackass]

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No offence, but you don't know a huge amount about Munster rugby.

For example, Munster didn't let Tim Ryan go, he was out of contract and refused another one.

Toby Morland was signed because two of three scrumhalves are injured, and the other will probably be in the Irish squad. The two injured scrumhalves are O'Leary and Williams.

Our back up props this year would have been Dave Ryan (completely inexperienced) Darragh Hurley (recovering from neck surgery) and Buckley (injury prone and probably in the irish squads).

In the backrow we've always had a foreign player, we signed Jim Williams when we already had Wallace, Quinlan and Foley. We've given contracts to young guys like Holland and O'Donnell this year.

You say you aren't trying to start a flame war and then go on about Leinster born players like Ronan, Jones, Hurley and Dowling. A bit of honesty on your part would see that Fogarty, Ross, Reddan, Hogan and Keogh came through the Munster system before ending up in Leinster. Clearly you do want to start a boring "Munster are awful, Leinster are great" thread.

I don't deny we have to work harder on bringing through young backs, but overall, we're still in great health.

haha....ok....well....please don't humour me with your condenscending tone.

First of all, by saying letting Tim Ryan go, I mean, letting him go, without managing to keep him, not letting him go, as in telling him to look for rugby elsewhere, it's blatantly obvious that they didn't kick him out...just like I complain about how Leinster let Felix Jones go (to Munster) instead of persuading him to stay.

On Morland, I know he's a stop gap signing, but the point is, for example, at Leinster (:rolleyes:) there were the likes of O'Donohoe in the academy who stepped in when Whitts was injured...I mean, it's on a par with Leinster bringing back Holwell when Nacewa was injured because Cheika and Sexton have a terrible relationship at best, but not because there wasn't ample young talent around to cover it. And considering the fact that Williams has never even played a game for Munster in his life says that it's not as if he's this massive player out that couldn't possibly be covered by an equally experienced man in the Munster jersey who has some talent...but...well....they signed someone instead...so does that suggest that they're queing up? Because experience is hardly going to be an issue here...........

And please don't justify signing a prop with the statement that we only have 5 props in the squad...that's plenty...but as I said, the talent isn't there, and of course there will be injuries on and off in a season, but it's the exact same number as Leinster have, and with VDL recovoring from a career threatening injury and winning a Heineken Cup with only 3 props and Ronnie McCormack on the bench!! :eek: No excuse.

In the backrow you haven't really always had a foreign player I'm afraid. Jim Williams hasn't played a game for Munster in 5 years this season...since then it's been all Munster lads as first teamers...time flys and all that, but I suggest you don't patronise when throwing out comments like that.

And I said the point I was making was not that the likes of Ronan, Jones, Hurley and Dowling are Leinster, but that they are not Munster (but may fly under the radar as they are Irish)...the point being, that all 4 of them are likely starters or at least multiple starters for Munster, but are brought in from elsewhere, you see I was discussing the amount and quality of players Munster have produced (and illistrating how few of them are in the team - especially under the age of 30).

As for the Leinster players from Munster - Fogarty, Hogan and Keogh combined will play less games than Felix Jones alone this season. Ross is a very good signing, apperantly one Munster could have done with bringing back, as Leinster don't have a 3 coming through, neither do Munster.

As for Reddan, he's also a good signing, but he's ahead of probably the most promising young scrum half in the country, O'Donohoe, who's about 5 years younger than O'Leary, so will be capped many a time no doubt, so it's not as if it's signing because there's nothing there coming through (like a 6 month stop gap signing or something) I actually think if needed, O'Donohoe could have broken through very sucsessfully this season with Keogh and Keane as cover.

Look, I hate when people have to make you go back and defend your post when you mention Leinster and Munster in the same post. Stop being so precious. OF COURSE Leinster are relevant when talking about how many players are coming through...if not for the simple reason that without terms of reference, most things are impossible to measure, and also, as this is an Irish rugby forum, and most posters are Irish rugby supporters, and Leinster and Munster would be the most comparable teams, it's completely relevant!! Don't turn it into a sh*t slinging competition because you're sensitive abuot the facts. This is exactly the way threads get locked...someone trys to make comparrisons or discuss, someone gets offended calls the blue and red wolf, and then it's locked down and discussion can not be had... :rolleyes: Don't be afraid to discuss and compare the two...I don't see where the problem is...I'm not measuring my mickey against yours, I'm saying COMPARATIVELY, this must be a major concern and outlining why.

Listen...the Scarlets have an academy and have probably promoted 10 of them this season, that doesn't mean they're any good, so you can name off all of the Munster players brought through you want, but when you look at the under age teams that won a grand slam, all Leinster, the underage team this year, all Leinster, over the last few seasons players brought through: Healy, Toner, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Donohoe, Willis, Sexton, Keatley, McFadden, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Carr - ALL of whom have made a fairly significant impact one way or another - 3 Lions, this season it'll probably be at least 7 players all together capped for Ireland ... etc. etc. etc.

Now I'm not saying look how great this is, my point is all these signings are going on and barely one single player is coming through a season in Munster that's making any sort of impact at any level, but gets 3 games off the bench or something, and then that's used as "Well, we've got Seamus O'Toole from Cahersiveen who got a try against Dragons in the Magners...like it's some big breakthrough....I dunno...this is one subject that frustrates...the Munsters seem to get SO defensive and it seems like nothing can be said these days...many a time I've debated the merrits of Leinster rugby when we were going no where and never took offence. I think there's a massive sense of denial. That's all I'm saying. Pure and utter denial and faith put in a few nobody players.

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

haha....ok....well....please don't humour me with your condenscending tone.

First of all, by saying letting Tim Ryan go, I mean, letting him go, without managing to keep him, not letting him go, as in telling him to look for rugby elsewhere, it's blatantly obvious that they didn't kick him out...just like I complain about how Leinster let Felix Jones go (to Munster) instead of persuading him to stay.

On Morland, I know he's a stop gap signing, but the point is, for example, at Leinster (:rolleyes:) there were the likes of O'Donohoe in the academy who stepped in when Whitts was injured...I mean, it's on a par with Leinster bringing back Holwell when Nacewa was injured because Cheika and Sexton have a terrible relationship at best, but not because there wasn't ample young talent around to cover it. And considering the fact that Williams has never even played a game for Munster in his life says that it's not as if he's this massive player out that couldn't possibly be covered by an equally experienced man in the Munster jersey who has some talent...but...well....they signed someone instead...so does that suggest that they're queing up? Because experience is hardly going to be an issue here...........

And please don't justify signing a prop with the statement that we only have 5 props in the squad...that's plenty...but as I said, the talent isn't there, and of course there will be injuries on and off in a season, but it's the exact same number as Leinster have, and with VDL recovoring from a career threatening injury and winning a Heineken Cup with only 3 props and Ronnie McCormack on the bench!! :eek: No excuse.

In the backrow you haven't really always had a foreign player I'm afraid. Jim Williams hasn't played a game for Munster in 5 years this season...since then it's been all Munster lads as first teamers...time flys and all that, but I suggest you don't patronise when throwing out comments like that.

And I said the point I was making was not that the likes of Ronan, Jones, Hurley and Dowling are Leinster, but that they are not Munster (but may fly under the radar as they are Irish)...the point being, that all 4 of them are likely starters or at least multiple starters for Munster, but are brought in from elsewhere, you see I was discussing the amount and quality of players Munster have produced (and illistrating how few of them are in the team - especially under the age of 30).

As for the Leinster players from Munster - Fogarty, Hogan and Keogh combined will play less games than Felix Jones alone this season. Ross is a very good signing, apperantly one Munster could have done with bringing back, as Leinster don't have a 3 coming through, neither do Munster.

As for Reddan, he's also a good signing, but he's ahead of probably the most promising young scrum half in the country, O'Donohoe, who's about 5 years younger than O'Leary, so will be capped many a time no doubt, so it's not as if it's signing because there's nothing there coming through (like a 6 month stop gap signing or something) I actually think if needed, O'Donohoe could have broken through very sucsessfully this season with Keogh and Keane as cover.

Look, I hate when people have to make you go back and defend your post when you mention Leinster and Munster in the same post. Stop being so precious. OF COURSE Leinster are relevant when talking about how many players are coming through...if not for the simple reason that without terms of reference, most things are impossible to measure, and also, as this is an Irish rugby forum, and most posters are Irish rugby supporters, and Leinster and Munster would be the most comparable teams, it's completely relevant!! Don't turn it into a sh*t slinging competition because you're sensitive abuot the facts. This is exactly the way threads get locked...someone trys to make comparrisons or discuss, someone gets offended calls the blue and red wolf, and then it's locked down and discussion can not be had... :rolleyes: Don't be afraid to discuss and compare the two...I don't see where the problem is...I'm not measuring my mickey against yours, I'm saying COMPARATIVELY, this must be a major concern and outlining why.

Listen...the Scarlets have an academy and have probably promoted 10 of them this season, that doesn't mean they're any good, so you can name off all of the Munster players brought through you want, but when you look at the under age teams that won a grand slam, all Leinster, the underage team this year, all Leinster, over the last few seasons players brought through: Healy, Toner, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Donohoe, Willis, Sexton, Keatley, McFadden, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Carr - ALL of whom have made a fairly significant impact one way or another - 3 Lions, this season it'll probably be at least 7 players all together capped for Ireland ... etc. etc. etc.

Now I'm not saying look how great this is, my point is all these signings are going on and barely one single player is coming through a season in Munster that's making any sort of impact at any level, but gets 3 games off the bench or something, and then that's used as "Well, we've got Seamus O'Toole from Cahersiveen who got a try against Dragons in the Magners...like it's some big breakthrough....I dunno...this is one subject that frustrates...the Munsters seem to get SO defensive and it seems like nothing can be said these days...many a time I've debated the merrits of Leinster rugby when we were going no where and never took offence. I think there's a massive sense of denial. That's all I'm saying. Pure and utter denial and faith put in a few nobody players.

After Williams we had McGann, Melck and Partainai (or however it's spelt) as backrow cover.

The reason Munster people are defensive is because despite dominating the AIL and giving more players to Ireland and the Lions, we're still forced to put up with the nonsense that we're somehow falling apart.

You seem to be asking why we don't have more young players on our team? To be brutally honest with you, it's because we don't need to play them. Should we drop O'Connell to play Donnacha Ryan, or Flannery to play Fogarty? What do you make of Tommy O'Donnell or Eoghan Grace? How many times have you seen Darragh Hurley play? Have you ever seen Duncan Williams play? Would you rate Dave Ryan a better prospect that Tim Ryan? Who'll step up between Nagle and Foley?

I like the way you describe players you know nothing about as "a few nobody players" just because you don't know anything about them.

You clearly know nothing about either fringe players in the Munster squad, the Munster teams in the AIL or the Munster Academy but still roam around here dispensing wisdom.

I could catalogue the injuries that both Hurley and Buckley had over the past few years, but I don't need to, everyone knows both are injury prone players and it would be senseless to bet on them making it through the season with picking up a knock.

If we're defensive in Munster it's because ill-informed people insist on sharing their ill-informed opinion on all things Munster.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Hmmm. Be interesting to see how Ryan's sojourn in la belle pays goes. Wonder would Munster have given him much gametime. Is Ryan a loosehead or tighthead by the way? And this new lad?

I don't know enough about the AIL to comment really.

Tim Ryan is a tighthead, played a half of the All Blacks game last year. I don't see how Munster could have given him gametime, like it or not, Kidney and Smal rate Buckley ahead of him so Buckley was always going to get more games than him, and Buckley himself is restricted to the games he'll get any year while Hayes is in such good form.

His younger brother Dave Ryan is also a prop, but he covers both sides. He's very inexperienced and only a clown would expect him to be up to playing a full role this season.

The new guy is primarily a loosehead but can cover both sides.

Darragh Hurley, our other back up prop is still recovering from surgery to his neck, again, only a clown would expect him to be fully fit.

So in short, we have Horan and Hayes who will be in Irish squads this year, and Buckley who might be. We'd have been left with Dave Ryan and Darragh Hurley, both inexperienced props, as our only choices, oh and Darragh would be recovering from neck surgery. Ffs, we wouldn't even have a pro prop for the bench, and yet somehow, Munster are to be blamed for signing someone....

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Tim Ryan is a tighthead, played a half of the All Blacks game last year. I don't see how Munster could have given him gametime, like it or not, Kidney and Smal rate Buckley ahead of him so Buckley was always going to get more games than him, and Buckley himself is restricted to the games he'll get any year while Hayes is in such good form.

Hmmm, fair enough so. Suppose that's the problem with Hayes, great as he is, he's not there for more than a season or two really. Tis a shame.

Buckley's still in my mind a question mark, potentially great, but still not there yet at like 28 or so?

His younger brother Dave Ryan is also a prop, but he covers both sides. He's very inexperienced and only a clown would expect him to be up to playing a full role this season.

The new guy is primarily a loosehead but can cover both sides.

Darragh Hurley, our other back up prop is still recovering from surgery to his neck, again, only a clown would expect him to be fully fit.

Ah fair enough.

So in short, we have Horan and Hayes who will be in Irish squads this year, and Buckley who might be. We'd have been left with Dave Ryan and Darragh Hurley, both inexperienced props, as our only choices, oh and Darragh would be recovering from neck surgery. Ffs, we wouldn't even have a pro prop for the bench, and yet somehow, Munster are to be blamed for signing someone....

I don't think anyone's blaming Munster for signing a French prop. Leinster have had a Cook Islander propping for ages and we all love him, hardly helps the Irish team though. Not to mention a certain World Cup winning prop.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Buckley's still in my mind a question mark, potentially great, but still not there yet at like 28 or so?



I don't think anyone's blaming Munster for signing a French prop. Leinster have had a Cook Islander propping for ages and we all love him, hardly helps the Irish team though. Not to mention a certain World Cup winning prop.

Buckley might never come through, but we don't have enough talent to discard him, not in Munster and not in Ireland. I'd love to promote guys like O'Regan and Archer from the Academy, but what would it achieve to promote them too soon? We'd be weak in a crucial position and the players themselves wouldn't get much from it. People also forget for years we had Gordon McIllwhan and then Puc as an experienced prop in our squad. There's nothing new about Munster having a foreign prop.

Ryan playing in France does help Ireland though, at best if he'd stayed he'd be getting a few ML games, now he's mixing it up with top players in the best league in the world for props.

What bugs me is that people who've never seen guys like Hurley, D. Williams, Foley, Holland, O'Donnell, Nagle, Grace etc play seem to be certain they aren't up it. Holland, for example, held his own against the All Blacks last November, and now he's a nobody because he isn't ahead of a few Lions and Internationals in one of the strongest sides in Europe?

yupyup7up

lets hope hes a decent scrummager and also that he is fit unlike a certain penalty machine called Nick Williams:rolleyes:

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Buckley might never come through, but we don't have enough talent to discard him, not in Munster and not in Ireland. I'd love to promote guys like O'Regan and Archer from the Academy, but what would it achieve to promote them too soon? We'd be weak in a crucial position and the players themselves wouldn't get much from it. People also forget for years we had Gordon McIllwhan and then Puc as an experienced prop in our squad. There's nothing new about Munster having a foreign prop.

Well obviously you need older experienced props. Takes years to fatten 'em up after all. Ireland's never been great with props really I guess, foreign ones are inevitable.

Ryan playing in France does help Ireland though, at best if he'd stayed he'd be getting a few ML games, now he's mixing it up with top players in the best league in the world for props.

It might help. Or he might end up not playing at all. Hopefully he'll improve as a player.

What bugs me is that people who've never seen guys like Hurley, D. Williams, Foley, Holland, O'Donnell, Nagle, Grace etc play seem to be certain they aren't up it. Holland, for example, held his own against the All Blacks last November, and now he's a nobody because he isn't ahead of a few Lions and Internationals in one of the strongest sides in Europe?

I know people hold the game against New Zealand's third team as proof that Munster are actually an ancient order of Celtic warriors, but one summer does not a swallow make. Good and all as Munster were in that game, it's not proof there's a working academy. Then again, if you watch football, you'll know how few academy players make it through to their first team.

With Munster it's a twofold problem (that word is used with a degree of reservation on my part);

1. I said it earlier in this thread - Munster's got less rugby players than Ulster or Leinster (this has nothing to do with clubs, their success, or anything else. It's merely numbers. The more players you have the higher the probability some of them will be international quality.) so they're academy should produce less than those two.

2. Munster tend to favour experience over youth. There;s nothing wrong with that at all, lots of teams do it. Take Mick O'Driscoll as an example, you mentioned dropping O'Connell for Ryan and said no, well O'Connell won't play all games. O'Driscoll captained Munster as much as he did in the ML as far as I could see. Now it would have been very easy to never get O'Driscoll back from France, and to throw in the likes of a Donncha Ryan instead. That would probably weaken the team in the present, and strengthen in the future. There's the trade-off. Different teams have a different style, Munster's is more condusive to an experienced winning team, which means is less likely to blood new youth. C'est la vie.

Anyway, given how wealthy Munster are, it shouldn't be a problem for them.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

With Munster it's a twofold problem (that word is used with a degree of reservation on my part);

1. I said it earlier in this thread - Munster's got less rugby players than Ulster or Leinster (this has nothing to do with clubs, their success, or anything else. It's merely numbers. The more players you have the higher the probability some of them will be international quality.) so they're academy should produce less than those two.

2. Munster tend to favour experience over youth. There;s nothing wrong with that at all, lots of teams do it. Take Mick O'Driscoll as an example, you mentioned dropping O'Connell for Ryan and said no, well O'Connell won't play all games. O'Driscoll captained Munster as much as he did in the ML as far as I could see. Now it would have been very easy to never get O'Driscoll back from France, and to throw in the likes of a Donncha Ryan instead. That would probably weaken the team in the present, and strengthen in the future. There's the trade-off. Different teams have a different style, Munster's is more condusive to an experienced winning team, which means is less likely to blood new youth. C'est la vie.

Anyway, given how wealthy Munster are, it shouldn't be a problem for them.

Having less underage players should in theory weaken our AIL clubs, but we've the best AIL clubs so I don't buy that excuse.

The reason we favour older players, imo, is because our schools and clubs system is very forward dominated. This is played out by the fact we can provide first choice and subs to the Irish forwards, but very few backs. Generally, it takes longer for a forward to get up to pro standard than a back and it takes longer to peak and you last longer at your peak as a forward. The underage rules on props is causing a further delay in a young props career, most props these days are guys who played elsewhere in schools.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Having less underage players should in theory weaken our AIL clubs, but we've the best AIL clubs so I don't buy that excuse.

You don't have less underage players, you've less players full stop. Munster is third in the list of provinces with players. Tis laudable that they're so successful.

I'd love to know how many clubs there are in Munster, and why they're so successful. I'd also be curious as to how the rate of schools players staying in the game differs in the provinces. Tis only anecdotal, but my year in school got to finals (and won at least one) 13's and J's, before doing well enough in the S's. Of that bunch, some of whom were involved in the Leinster set up, a large chunk quit playing rugby instantly upon leaving school. Maybe Munster's better at keeping guys playing.

The reason we favour older players, imo, is because our schools and clubs system is very forward dominated. This is played out by the fact we can provide first choice and subs to the Irish forwards, but very few backs. Generally, it takes longer for a forward to get up to pro standard than a back and it takes longer to peak and you last longer at your peak as a forward. The underage rules on props is causing a further delay in a young props career, most props these days are guys who played elsewhere in schools.

I've no idea why. Italian football teams always favoured older players to other leagues. Some places/teams/etc do it that way.

Forwards is interesting, given that the most outstanding young forwards in Ireland at the moment are lads like Ferris, Pollock, O'Brien, etc, age doesn't seem to be as big a factor as once it was. Diet and conditioning are taking a hold of youngsters earlier and earlier and it's helping them play much faster.

[Jackass]

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

After Williams we had McGann, Melck and Partainai (or however it's spelt) as backrow cover.

The reason Munster people are defensive is because despite dominating the AIL and giving more players to Ireland and the Lions, we're still forced to put up with the nonsense that we're somehow falling apart.

You seem to be asking why we don't have more young players on our team? To be brutally honest with you, it's because we don't need to play them. Should we drop O'Connell to play Donnacha Ryan, or Flannery to play Fogarty? What do you make of Tommy O'Donnell or Eoghan Grace? How many times have you seen Darragh Hurley play? Have you ever seen Duncan Williams play? Would you rate Dave Ryan a better prospect that Tim Ryan? Who'll step up between Nagle and Foley?

I like the way you describe players you know nothing about as "a few nobody players" just because you don't know anything about them.

You clearly know nothing about either fringe players in the Munster squad, the Munster teams in the AIL or the Munster Academy but still roam around here dispensing wisdom.

I could catalogue the injuries that both Hurley and Buckley had over the past few years, but I don't need to, everyone knows both are injury prone players and it would be senseless to bet on them making it through the season with picking up a knock.

If we're defensive in Munster it's because ill-informed people insist on sharing their ill-informed opinion on all things Munster.

Alright, I'm not going to argue with you, because you simply are insistant that these supremen prospects are just being held back because Munster hold the best players in the world and couldn't possibly be given game time. The blinkers are firmly in place.

So let's just simplify the whole thing for you.

Munsters underage representation.

1 player in the starting 15 that won the grand slam. Earls.

From the grand slam, Leinster have so far brought through from that team Healy (first teamer now), McInerny (gone to Ospreys), Willis (gone to Ulster), O'Donohoe, Hagan (Connacht), Keatley (Connacht), Jones (Munster) ... I mean from that year alone, the amount of players feeding into other teams! That's what happens when you're producing quality players who can't get into the team cause there isn't enough room. Even Ulster have brought through Cave and Pollock from that team.

And Earls will show you that if they're good enough, they'll get into the team. Just like Fitzgerald and Toner took Lions players places in Leinster. Kearney taking an Irish internationals place.

Or this season, 12 Leinster players in Ireland U20 best 15, 2 Munster...is this the product of an amazing academy??? Is Paul O'Connell playing under 20's now?

Even look at players like McFadden, he's behind the best 13 in the world, but he played 7 games last season, and from those games has made a massive impression. So just because you have good players, doesn't mean young players can't get a chance and impress.....

I mean you can try and argue "clueless" the whole time...but the truth is that there's very little coming through and you may keep convincing yourself over and over that it's all club based, and youth representation doesn't mean anything etc. etc. etc. ... trust me, the days of AIL club players being the gutts of provincial teams is well and truly gone, and you can talk about the past and players springing out of nowhere, but this is the first generation of academy players, and trust me, 99% of all the sqauds will be replaced by academy, and the difference in standards between the academys is insane.

Anyway, this has gone well off topic, and has gotten far too bitchy. apologies. I'm going to bed.

ALH-06

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The reason Munster people are defensive is because despite dominating the AIL and giving more players to Ireland and the Lions, we're still forced to put up with the nonsense that we're somehow falling apart.

You seem to be asking why we don't have more young players on our team? To be brutally honest with you, it's because we don't need to play them. Should we drop O'Connell to play Donnacha Ryan, or Flannery to play Fogarty? What do you make of Tommy O'Donnell or Eoghan Grace? How many times have you seen Darragh Hurley play? Have you ever seen Duncan Williams play? Would you rate Dave Ryan a better prospect that Tim Ryan? Who'll step up between Nagle and Foley?

I like the way you describe players you know nothing about as "a few nobody players" just because you don't know anything about them.

It is a good point that these are players we know nothing about. But surely the important point is - why not?

If they are good enough for ML / HC level and cannot get any gametime at all because they can't budge the incumbents, then there is something seriously wrong with the way in which Munster are developing youth players.

Guys like Burke are not ready yet but look seriously good and have to feature for Munster in order to progress to the next level, regardless of whether TOL et al are still better etc. Amazotheamazing, your point here is not valid - surely, the objective of professional provincial rugby has always been to balance commercial success with player development. This is the only card the IRFU can play against countries with much bigger playing populations (ie most other RU heavyweights).

[Jackass] wrote: »

Munsters underage representation.

1 player in the starting 15 that won the grand slam. Earls.

From the grand slam, Leinster have so far brought through from that team Healy (first teamer now), McInerny (gone to Ospreys), Willis (gone to Ulster), O'Donohoe, Hagan (Connacht), Keatley (Connacht), Jones (Munster) ... I mean from that year alone, the amount of players feeding into other teams! That's what happens when you're producing quality players who can't get into the team cause there isn't enough room. Even Ulster have brought through Cave and Pollock from that team.

And Earls will show you that if they're good enough, they'll get into the team. Just like Fitzgerald and Toner took Lions players places in Leinster. Kearney taking an Irish internationals place.

Or this season, 12 Leinster players in Ireland U20 best 15, 2 Munster...is this the product of an amazing academy??? Is Paul O'Connell playing under 20's now?

Even look at players like McFadden, he's behind the best 13 in the world, but he played 7 games last season, and from those games has made a massive impression. So just because you have good players, doesn't mean young players can't get a chance and impress.....

I mean you can try and argue "clueless" the whole time...but the truth is that there's very little coming through and you may keep convincing yourself over and over that it's all club based, and youth representation doesn't mean anything etc. etc. etc. ... trust me, the days of AIL club players being the gutts of provincial teams is well and truly gone, and you can talk about the past and players springing out of nowhere, but this is the first generation of academy players, and trust me, 99% of all the sqauds will be replaced by academy, and the difference in standards between the academys is insane.

I don't know anything about the aforementioned Munster youth players, but I have been following the underage teams of late and being completely objective, the signs ARE ominous. These teams are dominated by Leinster-developed players, and that's a fact.

There was an earlier point about a new generation of Munster players coming through now at the moment. I will be a happy man if this is true... So far, however, the above evidence demonstrates an unfavourable trend, one which will surely be exascerbated by the increased amount of overseas signings being made by Munster in recent times.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Anyway, this has gone well off topic, and has gotten far too bitchy. apologies. I'm going to bed.

I think this is a very interesting and well-argued debate - both sides have made compelling points and no-one's being bitchy... Yet!

buck65

Nick Williams could have a big year this year yet! He arrived last season overweight and injured. I for one and have a few consenters on munsterfans thought he did ok in the few games late last year. Again easy target for the armchair fans. He is disruptive, aggressive and good with ball in hand.

back on topic. Personally I felt for the past few months that Munster needed a decent prop for back up. This could be a decent signing - remember we lost Freddie this year so - foreigner in - foreigner out no problem. Even though Tim Robbins said that there are no club games during the international window - it does affect front line players who are never released by ireland for ML games . Therefore we would be without Horan Hayes and potentially Buckley for those weeks. This signing is just a replacement for Freddie, I certainly hope that Hurley makes a breakthrough this year. With the extra games (if Munster win the ML) and the extra games next year( Italian Clubs) the deeper the squad the better.

Tim Robbins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Don't know what the situation is like outside of Munster, but the Munster branch do massive work in promoting the game here. 30 development officers, new school programmes being set up, schools, youths and cadets, etc. This year they've set up training camps for talented players all around the province to give them the basics in nutrition and weight training.

There's been new clubs established all around Munster and the traditional clubs are reporting huge increases in underage players. I really think Munster are on the verge of a bringing through another generation of top class players. All the kids that joined rugby clubs after the 2000 final are coming through the schools now.

Oh do they now? I reffed a very prominent Rugby school from Munster seconds team against a one the big six from Dublin seconds team at SCT level. The Munster team couldn't field 15 players... In fact the ones that turned up were more interested in watching the H cup than actually playing themselves.

There hasn't been that many new clubs in either Leinster or Munster despite the Rugby boom. If you compare this period to the 1970's when quite a number of new clubs were founded in both provinces in comparison, you'll see a major difference. Way more were created in the 1970's.

Even if you go through boards.ie, every single member, at most there's been 5 people who've gone back to play Rugby or take it up.

But the amount of armchairs experts, well I'd guess about 300 boards.ie members have become experts at rugby.

This era has seeen a massive growth in armchair experts and people playing tag rugby - that's all. I accept there's been some growth at mini level. My own club, gets huge numbers down for mini rugby and slightly more for youths than it did in my day.

However, when you factor in population growth in the area it's actually a decrease.

What I'd like to see is new clubs popping up in all these urban growth areas such as places like Adamstown, Bettystown etc and clubs such as Tallaght getting good numbers every week instead of a bare 15 to make a team.

In leinster youths, the age grades system usually goes every two years e.g. U12, U14, U16, U18. This is because there isn't enought people playing it to have U13, U15, U17 etc.

Nothing has really change here. Also, there are f all youth teams in Rugby. Probably 20 in Leinster. GAA would have probably 300 and Soccer the same.

The branch organise a few cups and 1 league but they aren't even graded. Again because of the lack of people playing it. So you get this mega mismatches e.g. Rock could have a great U16 team, full of lads from the old JCT team but haven't made SCT yet so play youths and they hammer other U16 teams by cricket scores.

OldJay

Tim Robbins wrote: »

But the amount of armchairs experts, well I'd guess about 300 boards.ie members have become experts at rugby.

This era has seeen a massive growth in armchair experts and people playing tag rugby - that's all.

Thats a beaut attitude to have of the rugby union following public, I must say. Condescending, elitist...and wrong.
Thankfully a minority view.

7mountpleasant

anonymous_joe wrote: »

1. I said it earlier in this thread - Munster's got less rugby players than Ulster or Leinster (this has nothing to do with clubs, their success, or anything else. It's merely numbers. The more players you have the higher the probability some of them will be international quality.) so they're academy should produce less than those two.
.

Using that logic england should be the best rugby union team in the world and they are not, Munster in many ways mirrors the Ireland set up,. Stand out players will be taken in at a very early level and taken through the ranks and not drop out, so while Ireland with an adult playing population of a tenth of the U.K may not have as many players obvious talent is spotted at a much earlier age and therefore do not just stop after schools rugby, within Munster the big rugby schools do something similar with good prospects also, I would be interested to see how many of the Munster team came to their respective schools after junior cert level, so in a typical Munster kids rugby team say someone like Muskerry while 70-80% of the team might not be playing rugby 10 years down the line attempts will probably be made to get the stand out prospects into the schools system and if there good enough there senior cup, AIL academy Munster etc, this has always been the way in Munster.

Tim Robbins

[Jackass] wrote: »

So let's just simplify the whole thing for you.

Munsters underage representation.

...

Another real failure from Munster is that even though their clubs have performed really well in AIL (usually 3 of the top 4 are Munster clubs and usually Shannon win it) very few of these players break through.

you get almost one cap wonders such as Hurley but very little development.
I think you need to give more chances to more of these players and develop them.

When Toner came along first he didn't look up to much either did DOC. But both teams made an effort to develop them.

Now, someone like a young DOC wouldn't get his chance at Munster. I mean 10 games a season where it's ok if you don't play well in several of them. Afterall you only learn from mistakes.

Sure even Carney, what chances did he get? too much potential talent gets wasted at Munster.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ryan wanted more gametime, Munster couldn't give it to him. Simple as. Same as happened Reddan before him.

We do have the less players but we've more top clubs. People give out about this signing, i think it's far worse than a club like Clontarf has decided to buy in 15 players to buy the AIL rather than invest that money into it's underage section.

In fairness you gotta remember that since professionalism has kicked in the face of club rugby has also changed, whereas once Clontarf like most other clubs not officially affiliated with a feeder school had to rely on their catchment area for players joining from U20 ranks, now most top quality schools players are getting onto provincial academy’s and sign for UCD or Trinity which have far better facilities to offer plus nice grants etc to help the players/students through college. After they finish college a lot of these players would then return to the ‘local’ club.

While Clontarf have never been the strongest at U20 level they’ve always had top quality under age teams and have many Leinster Metropolitan Cups, our current Grand Slam Captain won the Leinster Metropolitan Cup back in ’95, while the Irish U19 team that won the world cup had 2 of the starting 15 who came through the mini rugby ranks at Clontarf and another player from the area who played senior with them. O’Driscoll, Rossi and Moore.

Cian Healy came through mini rugby at Tarf also

Tim Robbins

Justind wrote: »

Thats a beaut attitude to have of the rugby union following public, I must say. Condescending, elitist...and wrong.
Thankfully a minority view.

Why don't you deal with my points rather than take a snip at me. I give up a huge amount of time every weekend for the sport, I've a right to comment on it. I go to pitches that aren't even marked out, or ref games with broken floodlights and refs teams where no-one has any changing rooms.

You expect me to join the bandwagon and pretend everything is all rosy because the provinces bring in big names?

I love this sport and I hate seing being it being subverted by what is a narrow minded view of what success means. I mean some people are booking their trips to the Heineken cup final now, and wouldn't even consider actually any rugby below the level of the Heineken Cup for the entire season.

When English Rugby comes back strong or when the French decide to take it seriously we'll inevitably reach a trough in our success and all the band wagon fans will leave it. What state will Rugby be in then?

Negative equity?

OldJay

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Why don't you deal with my points rather than take a snip at me. I give up a huge amount of time every weekend for the sport, I've a right to comment on it.

You don't earn the right to moral superiority over other people who are involved in rugby union in Ireland in some way or other be that as a supporter or whatever just because you referee, volunteer for coaching or do the post-match dinner.

Without supporters of the national team or provinces, this relatively newly professional game loses a huge amount of money to run it with. Without these tag rugby players that seem to stick in your craw, a host club loses valuable revenue over a time when it would otherwise be more or less closed.

TarfHead

bamboozle wrote: »

.. our current Grand Slam Captain won the Leinster Metropolitan Cup back in ’95, while the Irish U19 team that won the world cup had 2 of the starting 15 who came through the mini rugby ranks at Clontarf and another player from the area who played senior with them. O’Driscoll, Rossi and Moore.

Cian Healy came through mini rugby at Tarf also

All true, but not the complete picture. O'Driscoll & Healy also benefitted from attending Blackrock & Belvedere respectively. Whereas Clontarf, historically, has benefitted from a regular intake from St. Pauls, I can't think of one St. Pauls player, via Clontarf, who progressed beyond AIL. Donovan Rossi maybe could/should have, but didn't.

Riskymove

I love this sport and I hate seing being it being subverted by what is a narrow minded view of what success means. I mean some people are booking their trips to the Heineken cup final now, and wouldn't even consider actually any rugby below the level of the Heineken Cup for the entire season.

That sort of thing is inevitable in most sports, attendances always drop the further you get away from the highest level and its the same in rugby for a long time hence.

When English Rugby comes back strong or when the French decide to take it seriously we'll inevitably reach a trough in our success and all the band wagon fans will leave it. What state will Rugby be in then?

Negative equity?

In fairness i think the advent of the professional era has been managed very well here in ireland compared to the "boom and bust" in England and the current situation in France.

The success of our top teams in the HC allows for funding and exposure which otherwise would be very hard to secure. You cannot get long-term development without some short-term success to support it.

Riskymove

In relation to the original issue of player development my points would be


1. You have to remember the number of people playing rugby. Its true there are more in leinster than munster and therfore on numbers alone you would expect more prospects at academy level there.

2. Holding up earls and saying where are the others like him is unfair. Its like holding up BOD and asking Leinster where are the others like him. Great individuals come along now and then (sometimes the same time if you are lucky) and cannot be the gauge of success of an academy. The gauge should be the numbers that make it in rugby at the right level. On that basis Munster are producing players even if they move on to play elsewhere as they want to move on from being squad players.
I view munster developments playing at leinster and top european clubs very positively.

3. How big can squads be really? Can you expect a lot of these players to hang around in large squads with minimum game time. there are only 4 provinces here after all.

If you know what your best first XV is you go with that and replacements. you cannot drop half your first time to develop propsects.

Riskymove

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What I'd like to see is new clubs popping up in all these urban growth areas such as places like Adamstown, Bettystown etc and clubs such as Tallaght getting good numbers every week instead of a bare 15 to make a team.

In leinster youths, the age grades system usually goes every two years e.g. U12, U14, U16, U18. This is because there isn't enought people playing it to have U13, U15, U17 etc.

Nothing has really change here. Also, there are f all youth teams in Rugby. Probably 20 in Leinster. GAA would have probably 300 and Soccer the same.

This is an issue i agree with,

As I posted before I am from Dublin originally, but from the wrong part from a rugby point of view. While growing up I never encountered any exposure to rugby or any attempts by Rugby to develop rugby. It was dominated by GAA and soccer.

My only exposure was to the national team on tv and my families connections to munster rugby.

There definetly seems to be apathy by Leinster to developing clubs in such areas, especially considering the opportunity the current popularity gives it. The growth in some existing clubs (i.e.coolmine, barnhall) shows the traditional geographic spread can be extended to new areas.

bamboozle

TarfHead wrote: »

All true, but not the complete picture. O'Driscoll & Healy also benefitted from attending Blackrock & Belvedere respectively. Whereas Clontarf, historically, has benefitted from a regular intake from St. Pauls, I can't think of one St. Pauls player, via Clontarf, who progressed beyond AIL. Donovan Rossi maybe could/should have, but didn't.

not disputing the role of the schools at all.

Frank O'Driscoll & Warren O'Kelly two ex 'Pauls provincial players, cant think of any more