New taxes on way to plug €5bn council debt

ei.sdraob

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/new-taxes-on-way-to-plug-83645bn-council-debt-1842170.html

to sum it up

local councils now owe €1,179 for every man, woman and child in the State -- a 10pc increase in one year -- and the figure is to keep rising

The soaring debt comes as the Commission on Taxationconsiders new water charges, a property tax, a carbon tax and a raft of other increased levies for already hard-pressed families.

ok i can understand property charges they should have introduced one years ago to cool the property bubble

but carbon tax? ffs we already pay increased ESB bills thanks to them paying carbon taxes already (see back of bill), and the chineese dont give a rats arse about global warming, sigh

and water taxes? come on it never stops pissing raining here

:mad:

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and water taxes? come on it never stops pissing raining here

It doesn't matter how much it rains, the water still has to be treated and distributed, the distribution network has to be maintained, storage capacity and the capacity of the distribution network has to be increased because we are using more water than ever before, etc. It all costs money.

Spudmonkey

djpbarry wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much it rains, the water still has to be treated and distributed, the distribution network has to be maintained, storage capacity and the capacity of the distribution network has to be increased because we are using more water than ever before, etc. It all costs money.

An interesting point on this, a lad from SA works with us and he says that water is taxed over a certain quota. Up to a certain amount the government provide water free (what with it being a basic requirement and all) and tax everything over that. It makes sense, like if you want to water the garden, take lots of baths etc.

Sleipnir

djpbarry wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much it rains, the water still has to be treated and distributed, the distribution network has to be maintained, storage capacity and the capacity of the distribution network has to be increased because we are using more water than ever before, etc. It all costs money.

This is what income tax paid for, traditionally. Raising income tax looks bad so just put a 'levy' on everything instead.

Income taxes used to pay for road, waste collection, water, roads etc.
What does our income tax go towards these days seeing as I now pay a separate charge for waste collection and now they want another separate charge to pay for my water and CO2 emmisions.

spank_inferno

A point on the "co2" tax

If you raise the duty on petrol by 8c per litre people seem to accept it.
If you raise it by the same 8c and call it a "carbon tax" people get angry and turn on the greens.

If I were in the greens I would be begging not to have it called a "carbon tax"
Because if it is the only 2 words I can think of is: "coffin" & "nail".
It could be a FF tactic for heaping blame on their smaller coalition partner

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much it rains, the water still has to be treated and distributed, the distribution network has to be maintained, storage capacity and the capacity of the distribution network has to be increased because we are using more water than ever before, etc. It all costs money.

If it makes you feel better heres an interesting story from mee travels

in the darkest times in early 90s of the post soviet collapse water was and still last i checked free

countries were people lost almost everything and got raped by communism and then by cowboy capitalism, still had free clean water (also free gas and communal central heating in some cities)

now what does that say about Ireland?

spank_inferno

And another point.

I would have absolutey no problem paying more local taxes if I actualy received anything in return for it.

Whereas this will just end up being a cash grab to help maintain their riciculous pay / pension bill / leave / entitlement / expenses bills.

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

in the darkest times in early 90s of the post soviet collapse water was and still last i checked free

I'd rather my life here with a water charge than a life there with none

Riskymove

Sleipnir wrote: »

This is what income tax paid for, traditionally. Raising income tax looks bad so just put a 'levy' on everything instead.

Income taxes used to pay for road, waste collection, water, roads etc.
What does our income tax go towards these days seeing as I now pay a separate charge for waste collection and now they want another separate charge to pay for my water and CO2 emmisions.

for a lot of people in rural areas water charges have been a reality for sometime in Group Water Schemes. Water charges are inevitable really due to EU plans.

It may have been provided free but at enormous costs to provide and maintain. Those costs could be reduced and money put towards other things. I personally have no issue with the idea of metering water, its the only way to have people act responsibly to the supply. As someone said it rains here all the time, we could all easily collect it for use in garden etc.

and..the main reason income tax may no longer cover all these things is because public expenditure is too high.

gurramok

I just wonder how there will be water usage issues with a declining population?

If they put the tax on the fuel like pay as you use, they better get rid of the unfair road tax to balance the burden.

is_that_so

Paradoxically it is FF who are to blame for the lack of local taxes. It makes sense but as posted I'd like to see the results of it. Personally would like to see more power vested in local councils as well. That said the local council do a decent enough job most of the time. I see no problem with water charges at all although the question of how to apply them is the key. With no meters in sight the administration of a charge is unlikely to be fair.

is_that_so

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If it makes you feel better heres an interesting story from mee travels

in the darkest times in early 90s of the post soviet collapse water was and still last i checked free

countries were people lost almost everything and got raped by communism and then by cowboy capitalism, still had free clean water (also free gas and communal central heating in some cities)

now what does that say about Ireland?

It was also unavailable for large parts of the day and often involved filling every receptacle with water at 6 in the morning. I used to get visitors for baths because I lived in an area that had water almost all day.

Tazdedub

spank_inferno wrote: »

And another point.

I would have absolutey no problem paying more local taxes if I actualy received anything in return for it.

Whereas this will just end up being a cash grab to help maintain their riciculous pay / pension bill / leave / entitlement / expenses bills.

I have no problem paying a property tax but will that mean the end to management company fees and all other fees. This is the problem that I have, we will have to pay this tax but will not get any services back for it. To me paying tax is paying for goverment services such as clean water, street cleaning, hospital services, the support staff to provide the services but at the moment I am not getting value for my money.

max 73

is_that_so wrote: »

Paradoxically it is FF who are to blame for the lack of local taxes. It makes sense but as posted I'd like to see the results of it. Personally would like to see more power vested in local councils as well. That said the local council do a decent enough job most of the time. I see no problem with water charges at all although the question of how to apply them is the key. With no meters in sight the administration of a charge is unlikely to be fair.

i agree - the local councils have their hands tied by leinster house

water charges over a certain quota makes sense but before they bring in water charges, the distribution system should be in correct order to deliver not have massive wastage/leakage (43% - forfas report sept 08)

it will cost a small fortune to install meters in every building/unit that uses water - money which we dont have

Riskymove

gurramok wrote: »

If they put the tax on the fuel like pay as you use, they better get rid of the unfair road tax to balance the burden.

the original carbon tax proposed a reduction in income tax to offset the higher fuel cost..unlikely in today's reality

ei.sdraob

is_that_so wrote: »

It was also unavailable for large parts of the day and often involved filling every receptacle with water at 6 in the morning. I used to get visitors for baths because I lived in an area that had water almost all day.

you get what you pay for oh wait nvm

ceret

The quote I like about water taxes is that the lack of water meters would make it "difficult" to implement. :P

One of the ideas of property tax would be to get rid of stamp duty and replace it with property tax. This way the government would get a more reliable year on year income. Whereas before we were relying on stamp duty. When there aren't as many houses being sold, the government gets feck all stamp duty and goes broke. This is what's happeneing now.,

jmayo

Sleipnir wrote: »

This is what income tax paid for, traditionally. Raising income tax looks bad so just put a 'levy' on everything instead.

Income taxes used to pay for road, waste collection, water, roads etc.
What does our income tax go towards these days seeing as I now pay a separate charge for waste collection and now they want another separate charge to pay for my water and CO2 emmisions.

Ehh up until 1977 when another famous FF government, that helped scupper the Irish economy for nigh on 18 years, removed household rates we did help pay for local services through a form of property tax.

It was only after this that income taxes had to be used to used to fund local government.
Commerical rates have always been there and has become reason for councills siting large devleopments in their areas e.g Dundrum Town Centre.

Another strange anomally is we pay huge amounts of car tax, yet most of it has never gone anywhere near the building or upkeep of roads :rolleyes:
In fact I recall one minister (can't now remember who exactly) actually stating that it was for more than the actual upkeep of roads.
He probably meant councillor junkets etc :rolleyes:

BTW in case you haven't noticed the governmnet are not getting enough tax to cover expenditure and they are borrowing millions everyday just to pay for the day to day running of the country.
Thus they are going to have to cut expenditure and raise taxes.

Sleipnir

Riskymove wrote: »

It may have been provided free but at enormous costs to provide and maintain.

That's just my point; providing water has never been 'free'! It's always been paid for by income taxes. But now, as we're living in a "low-tax" country, they don't put taxes up to pay for these things, they introduce a new 'levy'

and..the main reason income tax may no longer cover all these things is because public expenditure is too high.

again, you're missing my point. I'm not saying "how come we don't have enough money anymore" I'm saying that we're told that we live in a low-tax environment because income tax doesn't go up. We're just taxed via the back door.

Any suggestion of "we're need to increase income tax by 10%" (or whatever) to cover our costs. No, they'll introduce levies on everything instead.

Riskymove

Sleipnir wrote: »

That's just my point; providing water has never been 'free'! It's always been paid for by income taxes. But now, as we're living in a "low-tax" country, they don't put taxes up to pay for these things, they introduce a new 'levy'

again, you're missing my point. I'm not saying "how come we don't have enough money anymore" I'm saying that we're told that we live in a low-tax environment because income tax doesn't go up. We're just taxed via the back door.

Any suggestion of "we're need to increase income tax by 10%" (or whatever) to cover our costs. No, they'll introduce levies on everything instead.

well yes but that's usually the case, you either have high taxation whereby these sort of things are covered from general taxation

or


low taxation but you are charged for services (not levies but that you pay for what you consume)


is there a country where there is low taxation but no charges?


which one is best? well thats a more difficult question to agree on an answer

Outkast_IRE

Ok theres a defecit ,
Step 1. Cut back on wasted resources and cut budgets to all deparments.
Step 2 . Raise tax.
Balcence the budget.

Balence it by raising tax so people know what the **** they are paying for not all these stealth taxes charges for this and that . Things that were always part of your tax. GRRRRRRRRRRRR:mad:

Hagar

There's little point trying to get more money in without making some attempt to stop the money leaking out.

There isn't a single council or corpo worker anywhere in the country that does a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. The abyssimal productivity and half-hearted effort of the average CoCo employee is where the money is being wasted. A project that should be completed in a week or two takes months with its attendant wage costs and materials wasted or just knocked off. The dogs in the streets know what's happening but nothing is ever done about it.

Give the fools more money and they will just squander it as before.

Sleipnir

Riskymove wrote: »

well yes but that's usually the case, you either have high taxation whereby these sort of things are covered from general taxation

or


low taxation but you are charged for services (not levies but that you pay for what you consume)


is there a country where there is low taxation but no charges?


which one is best? well thats a more difficult question to agree on an answer

I know. IT JUST ANNOYS THE HELL OUT OF ME!!!

"Aren't you lucky, you pay low tax" !

ART6

Hagar wrote: »

There's little point trying to get more money in without making some attempt to stop the money leaking out.

There isn't a single council or corpo worker anywhere in the country that does a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. The abyssimal productivity and half-hearted effort of the average CoCo employee is where the money is being wasted. A project that should be completed in a week or two takes months with its attendant wage costs and materials wasted or just knocked off. The dogs in the streets know what's happening but nothing is ever done about it.

Give the fools more money and they will just squander it as before.

I'm with Hagar. In my village the coco decided to build a footpath between the village store and the primary school, a distance of about half a mile. It has now been finished about nine months after starting. No-one was on site before about ten o'clock, and they were gone again by three.

I work in the private sector, where on construction projects everyone works ten hours a day six days a week. Conclusion: we badly need a root and branch sorting out of the public sector in this country, stopping ill informed and incompetent politicians from trying to manage anything when they are too stupid to do so. We need to recruit into the public services people who have management competence and the determination to get the job done on time and on budget.

The tragedy is that it isn't going to happen until the PS unions have been brought to heel and the civil service has been radically reformed, and a final collapse of the economy is possibly the only thing that will cause that -- The IFM anyone?

halkar

I wouldn't mind paying for water if I can get clean drinkable water from the tap. As it stands water is full of lime and the money spent on bottle waters, filters, appliance repairs & replacements is far more than what I would be paying for good clean tap water. Most of the country is same, there are some parts of country you can not even turn on the taps :mad:

It's about time we start acting like the French and let this government know what we think of them. We, the public, should organise a mass protest at Dail Eireann and tell them enough is enough and demand a general election before FF drag this country down any further.

spank_inferno

Thats the reason we dont have any mass protests.

We're a country of 4 million different people.
If I or you call for a mass rally this saturday at college green, who will come?
Who will listen.

Those rallys in France are organised mostly by the Trade union movement.
As well as other representative bodies and community groups.

However in Ireland the trade unions have their face firmly buried in the trough like all the other vested interests here.
With no one to rally us, we are very much on our own.

thebman

Well we aren't actually going to see any improvements for all these extra taxes is the real problem.

They are just there to stop the government having to sort out its own issues and to ensure more money goes out of the economy so the recession gets worse.

Hagar

Startling new figures obtained by the Irish Independent show that local councils now owe €1,179 for every man, woman and child in the State

I would be quite happy to write them a once-off cheque for my share (€1,179) of the debt that these wastrels have run up on my behalf on the condition that they borrow no more money in my name and never darken my door again.

tritium

As another poster pointed out, if they bring in a property tax will they be doing away with management fees? As it is the council has washed their hands of their responsibility for many matters in newer estates so I'll be damned if I'll settle for paying twice.

The other thing is they're proposing to base the tax on house value, just like in the 70's. It was true then and it's true now that such a tax is massively inequitable and penalises urban dwellers.

The middle class have always been the traditional easy target since kids and jobs keep them off the streets. I figure the population of Dublin alone is >1million and that marching on the Dail a few times might hammer some sense home to this government.

I wouldn't be a socialist by any stretch but net result, if they implement this one, and don't pull something pretty spectacular out of the bag to make it palatable, I'll be marching, and you're all welcome to join me.

FreedomJoe

In the UK the council collect your Bins as part of the council tax.

Will the government here be doing the same?

Or will I have to continue forking out 500 a year for my bins, and 600 to the government for nothing?

I dont think so!

I wont be paying. And they can send me to jail and all the rest of us!

Remeber the in the UK nobody paid and they had to do away with Poll Tax.

NewDubliner

FreedomJoe wrote: »

Remeber the in the UK nobody paid and they had to do away with Poll Tax.

Indeed, they renamed it 'council tax':rolleyes:

FreedomJoe

NewDubliner wrote: »

Indeed, they renamed it 'council tax':rolleyes:

Not quite


Poll tax was a individual tax

Council tax is a property tax


Eitherway you still get more for your money for the UK property tax than what you will for the Irish.

Twin-go

How can anybody say we are alow taxed country?

I did some quick calculations:

Based on an average income of €34,000 p.a the yearly tax bill is approx €14,000.
This €14k is made up of
Income Tax at 20%
Health Levey at 2%
Specıal Levey at 2%
TV Lıence at €160 pa
Motor Tax (1800cc) 550 pa
Government levey on insurance policys at 3% (health, Car, House)
Fuel duty and VAT
13.5%-21.5% VAT on clothıng>Gas>Electricity>Phone>Bin>Car Servicing and Parts>Insurance etc etc:mad::mad::mad:

Not intitled to Medical card, no childrens allowence or other social welfare.
Do get approx 400 pa in mortgague interest releif.

I dont think I can afford to pay any Property or carbon tax with out a cut in tax elsewhere.

thebman

I'm sure the Irish government will try to screw the renters with a property tax somehow since they are the ones not up to their eyeballs in debt in most cases.

It will end up being paid by renters in many cases anyway though I guess.

Riskymove

Twin-go wrote: »

I did some quick calculations:

Based on an average income of €34,000 p.a the yearly tax bill is approx €14,000.

are you talking credits/allowances into account?

rasper

FreedomJoe wrote: »

In the UK the council collect your Bins as part of the council tax.

Will the government here be doing the same?

Or will I have to continue forking out 500 a year for my bins, and 600 to the government for nothing?

I dont think so!

I wont be paying. And they can send me to jail and all the rest of us!

Remeber the in the UK nobody paid and they had to do away with Poll Tax.

Don't think they'll be enough room in the jails and if they are I'll be joining ya coz I haven't got a bulls notion of paying another unfair tax in this low tax economy, I get feck all from the government local or national and they've already wasted enough already .
I will pay my share when the FF fiasco is finished (no fan of lab/fg either but better than the current clowns)

population

In Iceland the first thing they did was haul the Govt out by the ear for the economic shenanigans that bankrupt the country.

Over here we are still having to listen to moron after moron smugly saying "it's all Lehman Bros fault, we have a mandate from the people etc etc"

We cannot rebuild unless we get the rot out immediatley

ardmacha

We cannot rebuild unless we get the rot out immediatley

Throwing out the present shower has its appeal. But the new government still has to collect tax. The taxes on property will not have increased greatly, they will merely be collecting them annually rather than when you sell your house.

There may be issues with people who have no bin collection or bad water etc, but these are much more likely to be addressed when there is a property tax on each address than when they are paid out of a general tax pool.

thebman

ardmacha wrote: »

Throwing out the present shower has its appeal. But the new government still has to collect tax. The taxes on property will not have increased greatly, they will merely be collecting them annually rather than when you sell your house.

There may be issues with people who have no bin collection or bad water etc, but these are much more likely to be addressed when there is a property tax on each address than when they are paid out of a general tax pool.

It will change how much of the tax goes toward protecting invested interests like property developers and people that are heads of useless boards within government.

cyclopath2001

I think more thought has to be given to whether or not a property tax should be based on the value of a property or the cost of providing services to it.

A tax based on value suits rural dwellers because it will mean that Dubliners will pay more.

A tax based on number of occupants and the size of a property would be more equitable. Especially if it is linked to local costs, as cities benefit from economies of scale and we should be encouraging city-living as a way of make optimal use of services and helping to conecntrate labour near centres of employment.

thebman

Yeah farmers shouldn't exist and no town in Ireland is sustainable.

Me thinks you never left the city on your bike.

cyclopath2001

thebman wrote: »

Yeah farmers shouldn't exist and no town in Ireland is sustainable..

Or would you prefer that people in cities subsidise the rural lifestyle?

porte

Ok im going to stress this first im NOT racist in any way shape or form.
Why in gods name are we wasting money supportring these refugees/asylum seekers how much is this costing the govenment, no sorry tax payer each week in staff, food, clothes, electric, housing ,solicitors ,court case and health care.

thebman

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or would you prefer that people in cities subsidise the rural lifestyle?

Well you have not provided any proof that this is the case so I don't know if it is the case.

Everyone pays taxes including people in rural areas. Farmers export their goods and improve our balance of trade and reduce our dependence on imported foods. They pay taxes on their businesses too.

You are basically saying we should kill rural Ireland and import all our food. That will fix our economy.

As usual, lunatic Dubliner that doesn't leave the capital often enough. I've had this discussion with another user on here before, he lost. I'm not going to repeat all the BS again. Needless to say your wrong and you need to leave the capital more.

Boskowski

porte wrote: »

Ok im going to stress this first im NOT racist in any way shape or form, but...

FYP:rolleyes:

Bull76

This is quiet a joke, Were to soft a nation. Well how can a government assume that we will accept this. Look at all the increases in taxes and stealth taxes that have been levied out in the last year and they want to put more taxes on us.

How can we afford them. There telling us the people to tight up our finances. Paycuts left right and centre.
Where as the politicians and all those in power are sure I don't want a paycut so lets just increase taxes and make a few up. I'd like a few extra weeks off as it is tough having to listen to all those poor folks complaining about how tough times have gotten.

I for one am against anymore taxes as they don't benefit the country. Besides are they at the moment just think up of all the taxes we can pay. I mean whats a property tax for, we don't get anything for it. Carbon tax on feul, sure why not, then increase fuel costs and drive the carbon tax higher.
Beyond a joke really...Time for decisive action.

bangersandmash

thebman wrote: »

As usual, lunatic Dubliner that doesn't leave the capital often enough. I've had this discussion with another user on here before, he lost. I'm not going to repeat all the BS again. Needless to say your wrong and you need to leave the capital more.

Cyclopath2001 made a reasonable point. A value-based property tax will be naturally weighted against those who live in urban areas. This is at a time when we should be encouraging sustainable lifestyles, rather than rewarding sprawl or encouraging people to commute long distances from poorly-serviced areas.

The poster said nothing about killing rural Ireland or destroying the livelihood of farmers. Interesting that you were so quick to put words in his mouth. Saying "your wrong" (sic) doesn't make it so.

thebman

bangersandmash wrote: »

Cyclopath2001 made a reasonable point. A value-based property tax will be naturally weighted against those who live in urban areas. This is at a time when we should be encouraging sustainable lifestyles, rather than rewarding sprawl or encouraging people to commute long distances from poorly-serviced areas.

The poster said nothing about killing rural Ireland or destroying the livelihood of farmers. Interesting that you were so quick to put words in his mouth. Saying "your wrong" (sic) doesn't make it so.

You can say all that bollocks all you want but as soon as you say urban is more sustainable than rural, you just end up coming across as another Dubliner doesn't know what a farm looks like that has convinced themselves that rural leaving is unsustainable somehow.

Why should farmers be punished because you want to pay less tax on your property in Dublin? Farmers offer fresh fruit and veg to the Irish people and so provide an essential service.

cyclopath2001

I'm surprised the government is thinking along the lines of a tax linked to property values. Isn't this what got us into trouble in the first place?

Far better to link it to the consumption of local services and the cost of providing them.

ardmacha

The logical thing is for the tax to have both a sq metre element, which hits everyone equally on a geographic basis and a value of house element, which is a surrogate for ability to pay. Then everyone pays something, but people in Killiney pay a bit more, which would not appreciably affect people's propensity to live there. Stamp duty could then be reduced on the basis of the value element of the tax.