Our Young Athletes

downthemiddle · 27-07-2009 10:24am #1

For a period of time I have been concerned about posts relating to some of your young athletes and things have come to a head in the last 24 hours.
Some of the threads on this board relating to 15/16/17 yr olds are in my opinion over the top and unfair on youngsters who show great commitment to the sport they love. Some of our posters feel free to pass comments on and to criticise athletes who are still legally children.As a parent of a young athlete who has been fortunate enough to represent their country I know the dedication and sacrifices involved and if some of these comments had been passed about my child I would certainly be taking action. No athlete is a machine and no athlete is immune to injury or loss of form.There is no athlete who takes representing their country for granted and they all strive to do so as successfully as possible.However nobody sets a PB every time they compete.
The "hype" merchants on this board also cause me great concern.The recents comments about Ciara Mageean have ,I feel, been over the top. This is a young girl of 17. I have had the pleasure of watching all her victories at national level(and her disappointments) and she is an extremely talented young athlete.If she continues in this sport and remains relatively injury free she should peak around 2020. Yet some posters have decided see is a cross between Sonia and Szabo. No pressure there !Names like Ciara Cronin and Carol Meagan should serve as a warning as to what can happen to promising young athletes.Ciara's performances should be enjoyed and celebrated but lay off on the pointless speculation about her future.
We also have the posters who feel the reason we enter young athletes in these championships is solely to win medals. Some of our must successful senior athletes failed to medal as youngsters.Surely these championships are about developing our young athletes and gining them experience for the future. Anything else is a bonus.One poster felt Joan Healy should have been flown from Finland to Serbia to compete in a relay and was critical of the failure to do so. Joan is 16 yrs old and after a long season.Perhaps her parents or coach felt she had enough after a successful season. Maybe the AAI in their wisdom (I know

) felt it was unfair to flog her or maybe a decision was taken to develop another young athlete.This is just another example of the ill informed comments that are made on this board. I happen to know the athlete who took her place and know that this was a natural step in her development and feel the experience she has gained will stand her in good stead in the future.
Those of you who claim to be top coaches should know the value of protecting young athletes and leave your own egos and agendas behind when in a public forum such as this board.
If our young athletes were not aware of this board before this week they certainly are now.They will undoubtedly be logging in here on a regular basis in future. Is it too much to hope for that posters can limit their comments to giving them the congratulations or commiserations they deserve without indulging in idle speculation or unwarranted criticism?

Dr Watson · 27-07-2009 10:38am

Well said.

RoyMcC · 27-07-2009 10:55am

Well said, downthemiddle. However there is a probably a fine line between giving our young athletes the credit they deserve, and heaping pressure on their shoulders. Certainly it is wrong to expect present success to translate into future success. These youngsters have a lot of growing up to do and life is tough enough without them having to deal with a whole country's expectations.

Let us applaud current success but leave it there. Criticism of youngsters, informed or otherwise, is unfair on a public forum.

And with the dropout rate in athletics let's not assume that success will automatically continue - history often tells the opposite.

Woddle · 27-07-2009 11:06am

You do talk alot of sense and I agree with some of what you say, however I do not agree with wrapping our kids up in cotton wool. One silly comment was made which the poster apologised for. As regards comparing a teenager to a Sonia, surely this is a compliment and not to be taken as unwanted pressure, back in my football days I would have loved to be compared to a Paul McGrath or John Sheridan but I just wasn't good enough

Maybe I'm been naive here but I really don't see what the fuss is and yes I am a father of two and I try to bring my kids up in the real world and that involves the good and the bad.

downthemiddle · 27-07-2009 11:21am

John Sheridan :eek: had you no ambition:D

These youngsters are not wrapped in cotton wool. They work hard to get where they are. They learn from their achievements and their disappointments.They are all highly motivated and that in itself is enough pressure for someone of 15/16/17 yrs of age as they learn their way in sport and in life. It is the public analysis of their performances ,from people who quite often have not seen these athletes compete, and the pointless speculation that I find objectionable.

--amadeus-- · 27-07-2009 11:28am

The policy on here is that any athlete can be discussed. And fair comment is fine and is allowed. If I think that athlete X ran a great time then I am free to say so. Likewise if I think Athlete X ran well below par or needs to rethink injury management or whatever then that's fine too. And that cuts both ways, athletes are welcome here to discuss training, races, explain performances (good, bad or indifferent) and put them into context. In fact I hope that more of teh juniors do register on here and post, it would be great and could help build profile, support them and be a positive for teh sport.

But we live in a media age - anyone and everyone has an opinion and a platform to voice it. Frankly no athlete (elite or otherwise) should expect nothing but positive commentary. It is unrealistic to expect to get praise just for turning up, that's not the way the world works. It's particularly not how elite sport works. And speculation is part of that. 20 years ago juvenile runners were largely below the media radar, now they aren't and unfortunately that won't change.

I also know that this open discussion policy needs to be balanced a bit with juveniles - I'm sure all the mods expect everyone on here to be more sensitive to under age athletes than adults. If anyone has an issue with a post that they think crosses a line or a boundary then do not argue or retaliate in the thread. Report the post and the Mods will clean up.

thirtyfoot · 27-07-2009 12:07pm

No 15/16/17 year old has been criticised here, as far as I can see. One small criticism of a 19 year man who is well able to look after himself, for which the poster apologised and we have the Irish 4 x 100 squad (or someone pretending to be them) on here going bananas. If its them (which I hope it wasn't) then its good in someways as they are passionate about it but also bad in that they may be so sensitive about a small comment on a messageboard populated with roadrunners, failed athletes, hype merchants and 2nd rate immature coaches. I don't see Hesh on here (not that he has ever been criticised as he is god) or DOR who has been abused quite a bit here or even Alistair Cragg who in fairness gets a fair old digging. Yes, these are older athletes but we are talking about 19 year old men here, not little girls.

As regards the 'hype', I am happy to be a fully paid up member of the Hype Merchants Association. I'll continue to hype celebrate extraordinary success by Irish athletes no matter the age. Don't seem the harm especially when nobody is making any predictions about medals or Olympics to come. Most of the regular track posters here are anoraks. They know times, standards etc. When a kid comes along and break a legend's record (is that too much hype) and then beat the championship record of another then can we not get excited? Nobody mentioned anything about Ciara Mageean winning medals in the future. Lots of hope that she can progress but no medal talk. Her coach says she can run 2:00 next season, is he hyping her too much. The meet director of Crystal Palace gave her an invite for the 800 on Saturday, must be reading boards.ie and falling for our hype.

The harshest criticism that has been seen here in the last week or so was from the U20 4 x 100 guys or the person pretending to be them. They are all grown men and open season on the criticism stakes (thats if it was them) and some quarters would even say more so after their outburst (thats if it was them). I won't criticise them as I am a hype merchant but some here will now be checking these guys out in weeks/years to come to see can they race as well as they post;) (thats if it was them).

I'll say it again, I hope they do their talking on the track over the coming years, they are a talented decent bunch (see toning down on the hype already).

Compared to leevale messageboard or letsrun in the States this forum is a positive place. Crap isn't tolerated and usually shot down with stats or other insights from the regular posters. On the case of excessive criticism, I don't think the forum has a case to answer. On the hype, I take the OP's opinion on board and will be more mindfull but I won't be curbing my enthuasiasm for great Irish athletes any time soon.

thirtyfoot · 27-07-2009 12:27pm

Based on concerns from some, how would people feel about a ban on any talk about athletes from Youths downwards. It was suggested maybe Junior downwards will struggle to take criticism but I think this would be too much.

Youth (U18) would be reasonable but it would mean that you either have a total ban on talking about them or no ban at all.

I'm not proposing this but just maybe a discussion on it would be worthwhile.

No ban, ban on U18, ban on U20, any thougths?

My piece on the discussion would be that maybe yes have a ban on talking about the U18 as they are still kids but not on the U20. My number one preference would be no ban as I believe there is a good balance here between the merchants of doom and hype and that its good to let the general running public (that read boards.ie) know how well these kids are doing.

Woddle · 27-07-2009 12:36pm

I would like to leave things as they are now and have no bans, I, like Tingle do not see a problem. I don't comment on the junior stuff as I don't know enough about it but I do use boards to educate myself about the junior stuff.

shels4ever · 27-07-2009 12:45pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

For a period of time I have been concerned about posts relating to some of your young athletes and things have come to a head in the last 24 hours.
Some of the threads on this board relating to 15/16/17 yr olds are in my opinion over the top and unfair on youngsters who show great commitment to the sport they love. Some of our posters feel free to pass comments on and to criticise athletes who are still legally children.As a parent of a young athlete who has been fortunate enough to represent their country I know the dedication and sacrifices involved and if some of these comments had been passed about my child I would certainly be taking action. No athlete is a machine and no athlete is immune to injury or loss of form.There is no athlete who takes representing their country for granted and they all strive to do so as successfully as possible.However nobody sets a PB every time they compete.
The "hype" merchants on this board also cause me great concern.The recents comments about Ciara Mageean have ,I feel, been over the top. This is a young girl of 17. I have had the pleasure of watching all her victories at national level(and her disappointments) and she is an extremely talented young athlete.If she continues in this sport and remains relatively injury free she should peak around 2020. Yet some posters have decided see is a cross between Sonia and Szabo. No pressure there !Names like Ciara Cronin and Carol Meagan should serve as a warning as to what can happen to promising young athletes.Ciara's performances should be enjoyed and celebrated but lay off on the pointless speculation about her future.
We also have the posters who feel the reason we enter young athletes in these championships is solely to win medals. Some of our must successful senior athletes failed to medal as youngsters.Surely these championships are about developing our young athletes and gining them experience for the future. Anything else is a bonus.One poster felt Joan Healy should have been flown from Finland to Serbia to compete in a relay and was critical of the failure to do so. Joan is 16 yrs old and after a long season.Perhaps her parents or coach felt she had enough after a successful season. Maybe the AAI in their wisdom (I know ) felt it was unfair to flog her or maybe a decision was taken to develop another young athlete.This is just another example of the ill informed comments that are made on this board. I happen to know the athlete who took her place and know that this was a natural step in her development and feel the experience she has gained will stand her in good stead in the future.
Those of you who claim to be top coaches should know the value of protecting young athletes and leave your own egos and agendas behind when in a public forum such as this board.
If our young athletes were not aware of this board before this week they certainly are now.They will undoubtedly be logging in here on a regular basis in future. Is it too much to hope for that posters can limit their comments to giving them the congratulations or commiserations they deserve without indulging in idle speculation or unwarranted criticism?

Some very good points there , It's always hard to play down things when people are doing well and to compare someone as a cross between Sonia and Szabo is hard to stop when the break records set by these people. I know they need to be protected at a young age.

But if thats the case why not do away with all under age records as these in fact will add to hype whenever broke by someone who went on to do great things.

Racing Flat · 27-07-2009 1:36pm

Or perhaps parents of under 18's could ban their children from reading boards if they think it is inappropriate?

ChickenTikka · 27-07-2009 1:39pm

I'm in favour of allowing comment but feel that posters should be careful how they comment on both youth and junior performances. Praise and recognition of achievements is great. I don't think public criticism (however it is phrased) is good for teenage athletes - a junior athlete is still a teenager.

As others have pointed out, these teenagers are exemplary people - when most of their age group are getting tanked at weekends, they are training hard, watching their diet, etc.. They are mostly role models for our youth and who are we to knock them from the anonymous obscurity of our keyboards.

My motto would be for these ages ... if you don't have something good to say, then don't say it. I'd be in favour of this being written into the forum's posting policy.

thirtyfoot · 27-07-2009 1:54pm

ChickenTikka wrote: »

My motto would be for these ages ... if you don't have something good to say, then don't say it

Thats a good motto and pretty much followed here 100% (for U18 anyway) and aside from the accusation* of Chris Russell going for the free trip for U20 also and even for all Irish athletes. When someone slags them we get very defensive (I know I do). Its funny that people are accusing some posters of being overly critical of athletes and these are the same posters (all of us in general) who were accused of being over sensitive, having a chip on our shoulders, having a complex etc etc last summer when the non-athletics people were coming onto this forum and abusing the bejaysus out of our athletes in Beijing. But good motto anyway from ChickenTikka.

As Racing Flat says, if parents have an issue they should maybe restrict their kids reading the forum, just a thought.

*for about the 20th time I'll re-iterate an accusation that was retracted by the poster.

HaileGeb · 27-07-2009 2:04pm

Some excellent points have been made on this thread so far.
I would not like to see a ban on discussion of Youth and Junior athletics. It can also difficult to fully differentiate between the age groups e.g. Ciara Mageen winning Youth medals and setting Junior records. There will almost certainly be Youths on the European Junior teams in Santry in December. I'd hope that we could be able to discuss these races when the time comes.
It shouldn't be too hard to do. We may have conflicting points of view on some issues but we are all athletics enthusiasts. When posting about Youth/Junior athletes maybe we just need to consider how we would feel if someone posted a similar comment about an athlete that we coach/know/ are clubmates etc. Criticism may be part of the sport but it is only constructive if the facts are known and also articulated.

This board is generally a good one and informative. Yes there will be hype whenever an Irish competitor takes a medal at european or world level. I don't think that's necessarily bad and I don't think that any pressure has been placed on any young athletes shoulders by this forum.

Anyway, roll on the nationals, Berlin and the European Cross Country.

plodder · 27-07-2009 2:17pm

The worst thing about it is when athletes themselves get into slagging matches over (perceived) criticism. Nothing good can come out of that, and their coaches or team management should be steering them away from reacting.

You can't stop people from commenting, so maybe take a lesson from Oscar Wilde: "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about"

Racing Flat · 27-07-2009 3:19pm

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I'm in favour of allowing comment but feel that posters should be careful how they comment on both youth and junior performances.

My motto would be for these ages ... if you don't have something good to say, then don't say it. I'd be in favour of this being written into the forum's posting policy.

HaileGeb wrote: »

When posting about Youth/Junior athletes maybe we just need to consider how we would feel if someone posted a similar comment about an athlete that we coach/know/ are clubmates etc. Criticism may be part of the sport but it is only constructive if the facts are known and also articulated.

Both very sensible - the only thing I would add is that this should apply to all posts - not just those for younger athlete's IMO. Whenever posting if you think 'would I say this to the person's face' before posting, and then post, or don't post accordingly, you won't go too far wrong. Also, by keeping personalities out of it, steers you clear of trouble, referring to athletes in general rather than individuals makes sure you won't jurt anyone's feelings. But my motto - 'if you wouldn't say it to their face in front of other people, don't post it'.

plodder wrote: »

The worst thing about it is when athletes themselves get into slagging matches over (perceived) criticism. Nothing good can come out of that, and their coaches or team management should be steering them away from reacting.

Definitely. Young sports stars need to learn to completely ignore all that is said or written about them in the media - good or bad, just ignore. Listen to those close to you, ignore the rest.

runner43 · 27-07-2009 4:45pm

I wonder what coach you are talking about over the last few weeks there seem to be a lot of people claiming to be the coach of this young lady (would the real coach please stand up)and if it was her coach that stated she would run 2.00 well why not surely moving the goal posts is no bad thing and gives a athlete something to aim for .i liked the picture of the eyof home coming i see ciara hugging her coach dont know that lady i thought ciara.s coach was a bloke?

HaileGeb · 27-07-2009 4:51pm

I am not sure what picture you are referring to but Ciara Mageen is coached by Eamonn Christie.

thirtyfoot · 27-07-2009 4:55pm

runner43 wrote: »

I wonder what coach you are talking about over the last few weeks there seem to be a lot of people claiming to be the coach of this young lady (would the real coach please stand up)and if it was her coach that stated she would run 2.00 well why not surely moving the goal posts is no bad thing and gives a athlete something to aim for .i liked the picture of the eyof home coming i see ciara hugging her coach dont know that lady i thought ciara.s coach was a bloke?

Eamon Christie is her coach isn't he.

http://www.niathletics.org/news/default.asp?ID=1478&itemId=219&topicId=&va=0

Her coach Éamonn Christie has no doubts about her either. “ It is a privilege to work with her. Ciara is definitely the most talented athlete I've ever worked with and there is no doubt she has the potential, not just to win an Olympic medal, but and Olympic Gold medal,” he says.

He thinks she could even be ready to compete at the London Olympics in
2012, essentially four years ahead of schedule. “Within a year she
could be running two minutes for 800m and 4:05 for 1500m, which is
frightening for such a young girl,” he says.

He is realistic, though, and knows that not all talented young athletes go on to make it at senior level. “I know next year will be
a difficult year. She will be studying for A-levels and they will dictate her future and her training routine,” he says adding “but she has great parental support and I'm hopeful she will be able to juggle the two.”

thirtyfoot · 27-07-2009 5:04pm

Its rare to see an Irish coach set such lofty targets, he must really believe in his athlete which is good to see.

Interesting listening to the new high performance guy at Swim Ireland (Peter Banks). He has spent a lot of time in the States and has coached many Olympians. He has a very much winners atitude, sets lofty targets too and is very positive and optimistic. I'd imagine athletes will thrive off that and be pushed out of their comfort zone.

I suppose if we want these kids to succeed at the highest level and compete at Olympics etc then we should be getting them ready and geared up for it when they are 16 and 17. They are coming out of the stage of the long term athlete development when they should be learning how to compete and all the bells and whistles that go with that.

runner43 · 27-07-2009 6:03pm

<snip>

Unneccessary criticism of one of our youth athletes.

The first on this forum and from a new poster as opposed to the regulars (sorry, couldn't resist!).

Be aware, this won't be tolerated especially along the bitter lines and cryptic form this took.

You have had 3 posts and they've all had an agenda which I'm not sure what it is yet.

sleapy235 · 27-07-2009 6:10pm

I don't think a ban on discussing underage athletics is necessary, but its is important to remember how much these athletes sacrifice. Any comments on the youths posted here were very positive, and rightfully so because they did fantastically well. It certainly wouldn't be fair to posting negative comments about kids of that age because thats what they are really- kids, living normal teenage lives away from the track.
As for the juniors, as I've said before it takes fierce commitment and sacrifices to keep going at that age, the amount of athletes who give it up in their late teens is alarming, and once a few start to leave the club others follow as the social aspect of running diminishes and the focus moves to pubs and nightclubs. They will have to put up with criticism during the course of their careers however, and would probably be best off not rising to comments posted on message boards like this, maybe try to focus their anger or whatever in a more positive way, like how GAA teams often use negative newspaper articles to motivate themselves for big games. Not that the opinion of posters on message boards like this should really matter to them. However competitors of that age see how much they have to sacrifice compared to their peers, and can be very sensitive of such criticism. I remember reading the cycling boards before where a very similar situation occurred. The Irish u23 cycling team were being criticised over their performance at a race in Europe, and many of the riders were only 18 or 19, very young for the under 23 grade, and came onto the forum to defend themselves in a similar manner.
As regards hyping up young athletes, its hard not to hype the likes of Mageean and I'm sure everyone here hopes she does go on to achieve at senior level. Besides, its not like we've been winning much at senior level lately! (Besides Derval and Mary Cullen obviously), so people can't help getting excited at future prospects. The IAAF publish youth and junior performance lists, I'm sure seeing their name at the top of such a list would do more in terms of pressure to succeed than what some randomer here says. Promising youngsters in all sports are going to be hyped, its part and parcel of sport, and yes, the person who started this thread is perfectly right in saying that it doesn't always work out for promising young athletes. But like the Maguire twins in golf or Grainne Murphy the swimmer, athletes like Mageean are going to be hyped regardless, and unfortuneately its just something they will have to learn to deal with, especially when they are producing performances that compare favourably to a lot of senior athletes.
Just to finish I'd like to reiterate that maybe people should give consideration to the sacrifices made by junior athletes before making any personal criticisms.

HaileGeb · 27-07-2009 6:23pm

runner43 wrote: »

<mod snip>

Not true.

Ciara does speak about him in the article in the Irish Runner. He was also quoted on the OCI website after the EYOF.
She conducts herself superbly when interviewed and is extremely level headed.

ecoli · 27-07-2009 6:31pm

sleapy235 wrote: »

I don't think a ban on discussing underage athletics is necessary, but its is important to remember how much these athletes sacrifice. Any comments on the youths posted here were very positive, and rightfully so because they did fantastically well. It certainly wouldn't be fair to posting negative comments about kids of that age because thats what they are really- kids, living normal teenage lives away from the track.
As for the juniors, as I've said before it takes fierce commitment and sacrifices to keep going at that age, the amount of athletes who give it up in their late teens is alarming, and once a few start to leave the club others follow as the social aspect of running diminishes and the focus moves to pubs and nightclubs. They will have to put up with criticism during the course of their careers however, and would probably be best off not rising to comments posted on message boards like this, maybe try to focus their anger or whatever in a more positive way, like how GAA teams often use negative newspaper articles to motivate themselves for big games. Not that the opinion of posters on message boards like this should really matter to them. However competitors of that age see how much they have to sacrifice compared to their peers, and can be very sensitive of such criticism. I remember reading the cycling boards before where a very similar situation occurred. The Irish u23 cycling team were being criticised over their performance at a race in Europe, and many of the riders were only 18 or 19, very young for the under 23 grade, and came onto the forum to defend themselves in a similar manner.
As regards hyping up young athletes, its hard not to hype the likes of Mageean and I'm sure everyone here hopes she does go on to achieve at senior level. Besides, its not like we've been winning much at senior level lately! (Besides Derval and Mary Cullen obviously), so people can't help getting excited at future prospects. The IAAF publish youth and junior performance lists, I'm sure seeing their name at the top of such a list would do more in terms of pressure to succeed than what some randomer here says. Promising youngsters in all sports are going to be hyped, its part and parcel of sport, and yes, the person who started this thread is perfectly right in saying that it doesn't always work out for promising young athletes. But like the Maguire twins in golf or Grainne Murphy the swimmer, athletes like Mageean are going to be hyped regardless, and unfortuneately its just something they will have to learn to deal with, especially when they are producing performances that compare favourably to a lot of senior athletes.
Just to finish I'd like to reiterate that maybe people should give consideration to the sacrifices made by junior athletes before making any personal criticisms.

I think it is also important to take other factors not just social into account here as maintaining high grades in college while trying to work to support yourself through college ( if you are not on scholarship) makes training so hard even before taking into account the social aspects.

downthemiddle · 28-07-2009 9:05am

Some interesting replies and thankfully most of them supportive of my main points.
This board has members from a diverse background and I'm aware many members would not be aware of these excellent young athletes if it wasn't for some of the posts here.It is important we recognise and acknowledge the acheievements of our young athletes but lets do it with a sense of perspective.
I would hope that this thread might get some of posters to think a little more carefully about what they write in future.It would be nice to think that they would refrain from mentioning 13/14 yr olds as future stars and give them the chance to develop.
Let us enjoy the success of Ciara Mageean.It is important to realise how talented she is. Ciara is currently the UK Schools' Athletics Ambassador. There is no doubt UK Athletics would love to get her to declare for them but let us hope that the AAI and ISC don't manage to screw this one up.But please refrain from calling her the new Sonia,or heavens forbid the new Szabo.Recognise her achievements for what that are and do not apply unnecessary pressure. Note that while her coach set high standards for her he was also very realistic about where her priorities were next year.I hope all posters take that into consideration if there is a dip in performance next year.
Keep the posts positive, use common sense and we can prevent the board from becoming the internet equilvalent of "Liveline".

thirtyfoot · 28-07-2009 9:42am

downthemiddle wrote: »

.It would be nice to think that they would refrain from mentioning 13/14 yr olds as future stars and give them the chance to develop.

I don't think anyone is writing about 13/14 year olds to be honest, this is the EYOF, all are 17 are they not? For the vast majority of regular posters here these kids only come onto our radar when they have performances that are of a standard that would be good for an adult, so its only the really good ones - like the kids who will be at EYOF. These are 17 year olds, not 13 or 14 year olds. I think you are wrong to say we are here saying such and such a 14 year old will be a future champion.

Also, nobody is saying that Ciara is the next Sonia or Szabo. She beat Sonia's 800 NJR. She beat Szabo's EYOF CR. What are we supposed to do, ignore these facts in case we jinx her. Its a small community. Nobody outside of our little bubble of athletics knows Ciara Mageean. In the general scheme of sport in Ireland she is a nobody. I'll continue to sing from the rooftops about Ciara Mageean as long as she still runs these amazing times. You argue that we shouldn't be forecasting how great these kids will be in the future (nobody here has made any predictions?) and you say we shouldn't be really be celebrating her present success too much either. So, we can't celebrate the now or get excited about the future, might as well give up if thats the case.

I think you are missing the gist of this sport, with respect. Its all about firstly celebrating you most recent achievement but then for most you begin thinking of the next race, the next champs, the next season. All athletes do this, all athletic fans do this. Kelly jumped well, I wonder can she get to 6.70 this season or Kenneally took 9 secs off his PB at the weekend but he is now saying to himself I hope I go 13.29 next time. Its always pushing, always looking to the future. Its the beauty of this sport for me (because its individual and in your control). The same applies when you race bad or are hurt. There is always the next race or the next season. Its the nature of the sport. Look at all the logs on this forum, filled with optimism, all looking to the future. Fans are the same, somebody does well and we all think "I wonder how far they can go". These are exceptional 17 year olds, lets push and give them every opportunity to make it. I understand over hyping shouldn't be part of this but learning to live with pressure is part of the learning experience. It took Sonia well over a decade to learn to deal with the pressure of expectation at Olympic time.

I like your comment on liveline. Your original post reminds me a bit of the concerned parent who calls in to say her 17 year old son is on creatine and his testicles are going to fall off. Scare mongering. These are young exceptional adults, lets take away some of the cotton wool and let them breathe. Its all positive here, you are taking much of the fun out of it.

If a parent is uncomfortable with their child reading whats on this forum, do as Racing Flat suggested and ban them from viewing here.

BrotherBoniface · 29-07-2009 12:01am

Tingle wrote: »

I don't think anyone is writing about 13/14 year olds to be honest, this is the EYOF, all are 17 are they not? For the vast majority of regular posters here these kids only come onto our radar when they have performances that are of a standard that would be good for an adult, so its only the really good ones - like the kids who will be at EYOF. These are 17 year olds, not 13 or 14 year olds. I think you are wrong to say we are here saying such and such a 14 year old will be a future champion.

Also, nobody is saying that Ciara is the next Sonia or Szabo. She beat Sonia's 800 NJR. She beat Szabo's EYOF CR. What are we supposed to do, ignore these facts in case we jinx her. Its a small community. Nobody outside of our little bubble of athletics knows Ciara Mageean. In the general scheme of sport in Ireland she is a nobody. I'll continue to sing from the rooftops about Ciara Mageean as long as she still runs these amazing times. You argue that we shouldn't be forecasting how great these kids will be in the future (nobody here has made any predictions?) and you say we shouldn't be really be celebrating her present success too much either. So, we can't celebrate the now or get excited about the future, might as well give up if thats the case.

I think you are missing the gist of this sport, with respect. Its all about firstly celebrating you most recent achievement but then for most you begin thinking of the next race, the next champs, the next season. All athletes do this, all athletic fans do this. Kelly jumped well, I wonder can she get to 6.70 this season or Kenneally took 9 secs off his PB at the weekend but he is now saying to himself I hope I go 13.29 next time. Its always pushing, always looking to the future. Its the beauty of this sport for me (because its individual and in your control). The same applies when you race bad or are hurt. There is always the next race or the next season. Its the nature of the sport. Look at all the logs on this forum, filled with optimism, all looking to the future. Fans are the same, somebody does well and we all think "I wonder how far they can go". These are exceptional 17 year olds, lets push and give them every opportunity to make it. I understand over hyping shouldn't be part of this but learning to live with pressure is part of the learning experience. It took Sonia well over a decade to learn to deal with the pressure of expectation at Olympic time.

I like your comment on liveline. Your original post reminds me a bit of the concerned parent who calls in to say her 17 year old son is on creatine and his testicles are going to fall off. Scare mongering. These are young exceptional adults, lets take away some of the cotton wool and let them breathe. Its all positive here, you are taking much of the fun out of it.

If a parent is uncomfortable with their child reading whats on this forum, do as Racing Flat suggested and ban them from viewing here.

"Its all positive here, you are taking much of the fun out of it."

As a newcomer to this forum, I would have to disagree with that statement. I have read some insulting/deflamatory posts here in ART that were unfair and unfounded. The point was made earlier, which is so true (in the real/non web based world), that if you have nothing positive to say you should say nothing.
In the real world, these cowards would not make these comments for fear of retribution or simply to be made accountable for their statements.
Without taking sides, if I was a parent like above or one of those 4 X 100m guys, of course I would take offence.
Unfortunately a forum like this offers sanctuary for people like this who support this kind of behaviour.
Do you honestly believe that your smart post to downthemiddle(who has made some constructive statements) is fair or are you trying to make a laugh of him while you get 2 "thanks" from your audience/supporters?

plodder · 29-07-2009 7:35am

BrotherBoniface wrote: »

"Its all positive here, you are taking much of the fun out of it."

As a newcomer to this forum, I would have to disagree with that statement. I have read some insulting/deflamatory posts here in ART that were unfair and unfounded. The point was made earlier, which is so true (in the real/non web based world), that if you have nothing positive to say you should say nothing.
In the real world, these cowards would not make these comments for fear of retribution or simply to be made accountable for their statements.
Without taking sides, if I was a parent like above or one of those 4 X 100m guys, of course I would take offence.
Unfortunately a forum like this offers sanctuary for people like this who support this kind of behaviour.
Do you honestly believe that your smart post to downthemiddle(who has made some constructive statements) is fair or are you trying to make a laugh of him while you get 2 "thanks" from your audience/supporters?

This is the internet, get used to it. On one hand, I'm amazed that so many people from "the real world" take it so seriously, as if this forum had some kind of "official" status. It's not really much different from bar stool conversations down the pub. I'm also amazed at how thin-skinned some people are. The comment that some people are complaining about certainly wasn't defamatory. While I agree anonymity does lend itself to people mouthing off to an extent, being able to avoid "retribution" is not necessarily a bad thing.

BrotherBoniface · 29-07-2009 9:04am

plodder wrote: »

This is the internet, get used to it. On one hand, I'm amazed that so many people from "the real world" take it so seriously, as if this forum had some kind of "official" status. It's not really much different from bar stool conversations down the pub. I'm also amazed at how thin-skinned some people are. The comment that some people are complaining about certainly wasn't defamatory. While I agree anonymity does lend itself to people mouthing off to an extent, being able to avoid "retribution" is not necessarily a bad thing.

Of course it will be taken seriously, once it goes out into the public domain, people will read it, same effect/damage as if it were written on paper. That is the problem here, it is more damaging here as people can hide.
If you think these conversations are not to be taken seriously, then they are not effecting you directly. I could guarantee if the on the other hand they effected you or some close relative/friend it would be a different story.
An exact example of this was when a moderator here got very animated in protecting a young Irish athlete regarding his hamstring injury. Apparently he knows the athlete and thought the comments made were unfair.
Sometimes it is so easy to forget about how other peoples feelings/views are when the shoe is on the other foot.

--amadeus-- · 29-07-2009 9:21am

These runners are not children. My understanding is that they are all young men and women in thier late teens who are competing at the entry level point of elite sport. Most (all I would assume) have ambitions to compete at senior level in World Championships and Olympic Games. I am sure some will go on to make the leap to full time status and again I would imagine that all would harbour that status as an aspiration.

As such - frankly - they / thier friends / supporters / whoever need to accept that there will be media attention on them and that (shock, horror) this attention will not always be hagiographic. And in some ways they are lucky to compete in a sport with a fairly low media profile. Look at the nonsense around youngsters in other sports - Jaime Alguersuari is 19 and was accused of being a danger to himself and others when he made his debut in F1 recently. Comments from the other drivers were directly critical ("it's not a learning school" being among teh mildest). And then there is 16 year old Michelle Larcher De Brito. A junior tennis player who no less a body than the Times of London described as sounding as if "she is having her fingernails torturously ripped out on every single shot" and is pretty much accused of cheating.

The absolute worst I have seen on here is one comment about an athlete going to a championship just for a free trip (later apologised for) and one who's injury management strategy was questioned. And that's it. Hardly torrents of abuse now is it?

If you feel that any post on this forum crosses a line between legitimate comment on an athletes performances then use teh report post function and teh Mods will look at it and decide if it is fair. If is isn't it will be deleted or edited. If you feel that our decisions are wrong feel free to raise teh matter in either the Feedback or Helpdesk forums where the site Admins can review.

plodder · 29-07-2009 9:26am

BrotherBoniface wrote: »

Of course it will be taken seriously, once it goes out into the public domain, people will read it, same effect/damage as if it were written on paper. That is the problem here, it is more damaging here as people can hide.
If you think these conversations are not to be taken seriously, then they are not effecting you directly. I could guarantee if the on the other hand they effected you or some close relative/friend it would be a different story.
An exact example of this was when a moderator here got very animated in protecting a young Irish athlete regarding his hamstring injury. Apparently he knows the athlete and thought the comments made were unfair.
Sometimes it is so easy to forget about how other peoples feelings/views are when the shoe is on the other foot.

That's true, with respect to the comments being public, but most people who post here regularly, know that you can't hide from defamatory or libellous comments, despite being anonymous. People can be sued, and even the owners of sites like this, have some liability, which is why policies do exist to deal with that. Whether moderators are always being consistent or not is another question. I'm not one, but I can believe what you're saying.

I agree with you on fairness generally. Really all I'm saying is that you can't stop people commenting. The best policy is to ignore it or else defend your position in whatever way you think is appropriate. Sometimes I think a lot of the problems in this country are caused by people being unable to deal with disagreement and dissent.

thirtyfoot · 29-07-2009 10:23am

There seems to be 2 separate issues here -

- Comments on young 13/14 kids
- A comment about someone taking a free trip to Euro Juniors

The OP was talking mainly about the first issue. I Pm'ed him/her and they carified further and confirmed it was not just the EYOF thread him/her was talking about but threads earlier in the year. So, yes, I apologise for saying that 13/14 yr olds weren't spoken about, they were but again in a positive light, non-hyped in my opinion. Can we stop people posting about these, I don't think so and I won't as long as its positive and informative, statisically based in black and white and not petty or parochial like you would have seen on other (now closed) Irish athletic messageboards. People are interested and they will post.

The accusation of us being hype merchants I will refute though. We are not. We state everything in black and white, statistically sound and not just based on pure opinion. I can't recall any predictions of what such and such an athlete will run in years to come or will they medal in the future (maybe there was and if so, what harm, its all about being excited about the future as I explained already). We are even very cautious here to talk of guys like Gillick medalling as we know the pit falls. On the EYOF/Ciara M, they are 17 years olds and elite on a European/Global scale, of course we will talk about them. The OP seems reasonable and non-reactionary so I assume they can see it from my side also.

The 2nd issue is the Chris R issue. There was one comment and it was retracted. BortherBoniface brings up my defence of similar comment about Brian Gregan. Thats true and yes when you see what you believe falsehoods appear you want to react. Yet, that poster, irish_athlete, never retracted the statements and so we argued trying to make our points. If he had retracted that would have been the end of it. Its how it works here. helpisontheway apologised, get over yourself and move on. He has. One comment that was retracted for God sake. Can you not see that still compaining about this is like the Joe Duffy Show?

Interestingly, in the irish_athlete/Brian Gregan debate, myself and irish_athlete had a good discussion offline. irish_athlete did some research and reviewing and has come up with some good suggestions and highlighted these in a very impressive review of his mechanics etc. All good and very constructive. We were hammering the hell out of us in the discussion and very rarely see eye to eye yet at the end of the day we can still discuss in a constructive manner.

BrotherBoniface, I am as big a hypocrit as anyone but I love the way you complain about my smart post and throw in a smart post of your own. If my post's smartness offended you, I apologise but I thought the Creatine/Testicle line was funny and deserved a few more thumbs up from my many fans here.

So, lets get to brass tacks. What are the outstanding issues?

OP - do you understand where we are coming with regarding 'hyping' the exceptional athletes like Ciara? She is world class for her age. Its not idle hyping. In my opinion we need more hype merchants to do get across how great our sport is so maybe our opinions differ on that (and thats not a bad thing).

I will try to be more conscious of people posting about kids that are too young (the 13/14 yr olds) but you must understand its a forum and people will want to talk about them. Its all positive and in these cases if its not we will moderate accordingly.

Brother - what do you want out of this (I could be smart and say Oh Brother, where are thou coming from? , but I wont:D). Is it an apology for Chris R as that poster has already given that? If not, what's your point caller? (as Joe Duffy might say). If its the fact that a forum like this exists then something like that is out of our hands and you should maybe direct that towards feedback as --amadeus-- suggests.

This forum is very lighted hearted (unless I am having a row with irish_athlete:D) and supportive practically all of the time, I hope it stays like that and it doesn't become the athletics version of Joe Duffy Show or follows what has happened to practically every other irish athletic messageboard.

BrotherBoniface · 29-07-2009 10:55am

Tingle wrote: »

There seems to be 2 separate issues here -

- Comments on young 13/14 kids
- A comment about someone taking a free trip to Euro Juniors

The OP was talking mainly about the first issue. I Pm'ed him/her and they carified further and confirmed it was not just the EYOF thread him/her was talking about but threads earlier in the year. So, yes, I apologise for saying that 13/14 yr olds weren't spoken about, they were but again in a positive light, non-hyped in my opinion. Can we stop people posting about these, I don't think so and I won't as long as its positive and informative, statisically based in black and white and not petty or parochial like you would have seen on other (now closed) Irish athletic messageboards. People are interested and they will post.

The accusation of us being hype merchants I will refute though. We are not. We state everything in black and white, statistically sound and not just based on pure opinion. I can't recall any predictions of what such and such an athlete will run in years to come or will they medal in the future (maybe there was and if so, what harm, its all about being excited about the future as I explained already). We are even very cautious here to talk of guys like Gillick medalling as we know the pit falls. On the EYOF/Ciara M, they are 17 years olds and elite on a European/Global scale, of course we will talk about them. The OP seems reasonable and non-reactionary so I assume they can see it from my side also.

The 2nd issue is the Chris R issue. There was one comment and it was retracted. BortherBoniface brings up my defence of similar comment about Brian Gregan. Thats true and yes when you see what you believe falsehoods appear you want to react. Yet, that poster, irish_athlete, never retracted the statements and so we argued trying to make our points. If he had retracted that would have been the end of it. Its how it works here. helpisontheway apologised, get over yourself and move on. He has. One comment that was retracted for God sake. Can you not see that still compaining about this is like the Joe Duffy Show?

Interestingly, in the irish_athlete/Brian Gregan debate, myself and irish_athlete had a good discussion offline. irish_athlete did some research and reviewing and has come up with some good suggestions and highlighted these in a very impressive review of his mechanics etc. All good and very constructive. We were hammering the hell out of us in the discussion and very rarely see eye to eye yet at the end of the day we can still discuss in a constructive manner.

BrotherBoniface, I am as big a hypocrit as anyone but I love the way you complain about my smart post and throw in a smart post of your own. If my post's smartness offended you, I apologise but I thought the Creatine/Testicle line was funny and deserved a few more thumbs up from my many fans here.

So, lets get to brass tacks. What are the outstanding issues?

OP - do you understand where we are coming with regarding 'hyping' the exceptional athletes like Ciara? She is world class for her age. Its not idle hyping. In my opinion we need more hype merchants to do get across how great our sport is so maybe our opinions differ on that (and thats not a bad thing).

I will try to be more conscious of people posting about kids that are too young (the 13/14 yr olds) but you must understand its a forum and people will want to talk about them. Its all positive and in these cases if its not we will moderate accordingly.

Brother - what do you want out of this (I could be smart and say Oh Brother, where are thou coming from? , but I wont:D). Is it an apology for Chris R as that poster has already given that? If not, what's your point caller? (as Joe Duffy might say). If its the fact that a forum like this exists then something like that is out of our hands and you should maybe direct that towards feedback as --amadeus-- suggests.

This forum is very lighted hearted (unless I am having a row with irish_athlete:D) and supportive practically all of the time, I hope it stays like that and it doesn't become the athletics version of Joe Duffy Show or follows what has happened to practically every other irish athletic messageboard.

Ok Tingle, I dont want to have a go at you personally, if i did, I was just using you as an example and I apologise if I offended. I am not looking for any apology for Chris R or any other athlete/parent/friend etc. Really, all I was trying to do was highlight the hypocracy as you mentioned and how a forum like this can cause personal hurt/objection to some people. I didnt feel it was necessary to report to feedback as I didnt think charter rules were broken and I am not fully versed in those rules.
My opinion is what it is regarding forums, and I felt it was right to speak out where the issue of fairness and hypocracy where concerned.
You seem like a good guy as I have read other posts by yourself which are very supportive and positive regarding athletes and the sport in general.
The problem here as I see it, is how easy the line can be crossed between subjectivity and objectivity when emotion comes into play.
I hope I am making some sense and I dont wish to make any enemies here

thirtyfoot · 29-07-2009 11:06am

Ok, thats fair enough, I see what you mean, we are all friends again

and I didn't think you were having a go at me personally. I thought you were dragging up the Russell Gate issue again (which you weren't), so just some confusion.

BrotherBoniface wrote: »

The problem here as I see it, is how easy the line can be crossed between subjectivity and objectivity when emotion comes into play.

Thats a good point. I struggle with that here as a moderator and it hard to gauge. My stance here on things can be hypocrital but it can be hard being a moderator on something that you feel passionate about and have strong opinions on. Mods are still human and have to work off gut feeling most of the time, we will get it wrong but I suppose we need to be big enough to admit that when we do. The Gregan thing is a good example as I know the situation well and when irish_athlete came on I went bananas as he drives me mad a lot of the time. Then again, a lot of the time he talks sense and his constructive criticism on Gregan (sent through PM ) is very impressive. Its a tough call being a moderator when you want to get really stuck into a debate:(

downthemiddle · 29-07-2009 11:28am

My main purpose in posting this thread was to give posters food for thought. Remember anyone under 18 is a child and just apply some restraint when discussing them. After all our mods are going to be busy with our new posters, deleting threads on a regular basis and don't need us old fogies causing problems too !!