Stepson out of jail, what to do?

mirwillbeback · 24-07-2009 11:33pm #1

Hi,

Long time advice giver, shoe on the other foot now.

With my gf 10 years this year, her husband died of cancer a few years before, she had 2 boys when I met her, since then we've had another 2 - loads of testosterone in the house

Get on great with her 2nd eldest, ( 19 ) a real treasure and we're like father and son. My two boys are 6 & 3, amazing kids and we have a great little close knit family.

Problem is her eldest, now 22. He's been out of our house since he was 15, went down a bad road, dealing drugs, robbing cars and eventually 2 armed robberies he's been inside for last 3 years for. He came out this week, despite what I feel about him and how he's treated him mam for the last 7 years, I agreed to say nothing apart from that he isn't welcome in our house.

Well, since he came out on Monday, he's been evicted from where he was meant to stay, lost his sheet that he's to get signed every day for probation, called his mam 3 times saying sh!te like " you're my mam, you need to sort it out " or " so your two younger boys are more important than me ".

Anyways, my gf is very upset over his attitude and the fact he's gone right back into his drug taking gang of wasters. I am absolutely at boiling point. I gave him a hiding once before when he tried to kick in our front door and threaten her ( not knowing I was on a half day from work ) and I am very close to doing it again. Best thing is for her to ignore him ( my opinion ) but he is still her son and it's easy for me to say.

Sorry for long post, but what is best thing to do?

Thanks in advance,

Paul

Victor · 25-07-2009 12:22am

Unless you are actually being attacked, violence is not the solution.

He needs to be told that respect goes both ways. If he wants something, he needs to give something back.

Does he have someone official dealing with him on rehabilitation issues?

CDfm · 25-07-2009 12:43am

His accomadation is a probabion issue and its up to him to sort it out and not his mother or you.

If he tried to kick in the front door you are right not to want him around. Rehabilitating is his own choice not yours nor your gfs.

philologos · 25-07-2009 9:19am

OP: I'd say, let him back into the house. However, insist that he doesn't go anywhere near this gang of his, and insist that he goes to rehab if he has issues with drug addiction. However after being inside for so long I doubt that that would have exascerbated much. After being in jail, you never know, his attitude towards his mother could have genuinely changed. Then again, I'm a second chance kind of guy.

Queen-Mise · 25-07-2009 9:27am

i would go the other way with the boy. Get a barring, protection order against him.

He sounds completely out of control and also very dangerous.

His mother needs to tell him she loves him and when he sorts himself out, he is welcome back into your lives. But the two younger boys need to be protected.

Dont go down the violence route again. This lad is dangerous.

Queen-Mise · 25-07-2009 9:37am

Jakkass wrote: »

and insist that he goes to rehab if he has issues with drug addiction. However after being inside for so long I doubt that that would have exascerbated much.

They are loads of drugs in the irish prison system. Mainly heroin & hash.

Addiction doesnt stop or halt, it gets worse continually. As soon as he put a drug or alcohol he will be as bad or worse before he went to prison. It may take a couple of weeks to kick in but it will.

Does he take drugs or just deal them.

Splendour · 25-07-2009 10:07am

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Hi,

Long time advice giver, shoe on the other foot now.

With my gf 10 years this year, her husband died of cancer a few years before, she had 2 boys when I met her, since then we've had another 2 - loads of testosterone in the house

Get on great with her 2nd eldest, ( 19 ) a real treasure and we're like father and son. My two boys are 6 & 3, amazing kids and we have a great little close knit family.

Problem is her eldest, now 22. He's been out of our house since he was 15, went down a bad road, dealing drugs, robbing cars and eventually 2 armed robberies he's been inside for last 3 years for. He came out this week, despite what I feel about him and how he's treated him mam for the last 7 years, I agreed to say nothing apart from that he isn't welcome in our house.

Well, since he came out on Monday, he's been evicted from where he was meant to stay, lost his sheet that he's to get signed every day for probation, called his mam 3 times saying sh!te like " you're my mam, you need to sort it out " or " so your two younger boys are more important than me ".

Anyways, my gf is very upset over his attitude and the fact he's gone right back into his drug taking gang of wasters. I am absolutely at boiling point. I gave him a hiding once before when he tried to kick in our front door and threaten her ( not knowing I was on a half day from work ) and I am very close to doing it again. Best thing is for her to ignore him ( my opinion ) but he is still her son and it's easy for me to say.

Sorry for long post, but what is best thing to do?

Thanks in advance,

Paul

I feel sorry for this poor chap (easy to say when I'm not going through it I know). His Dad died when he was very young, then his Mom meets someone a few years later. It must have been difficult for him to lose his Dad and then have another man take over what he possibly perceived as being his role i.e. eldest male in the house. From his jealousy over the younger boys, I imagine he hasn't dealt with any of this too well.

Paul, did he have any counselling during this transition period? Maybe you could take a totally different approach. Meet him for a pint and tell him how concerned you and his Mom are for him and that you would like to help him. Can you try and relate to him in anyway at all with something you yourself have gone through? Show him your flaws.Let him see we all mess up. He may be coming across in an angry fashion but beneath this anger and resentment I think there's a young boy still pining for his father.

Above all, whatever you do, don't ignore it.

CDfm · 25-07-2009 10:13am

Queen-Mise wrote: »

i would go the other way with the boy. Get a barring, protection order against him.

I dont think you would be able to get a barring order if he hasnt done anything wrong other than being an asshole.

He is not your child so your feelings will be different towards him naturally enough than his mothers are. But you and his mother need to tackle it as a family unit.That said you cant have him living with you if he is using and dealing -pure nuts.

My suggestion is that while he his hanging out with his old friends you cant really take him into the family and you need to find out more as to whether or not he has given up drugs and dealing. Is this being monitored by his probation service?

It is going to be a very difficult family situation for you and you will need outside help so why dont you contact Narcotics Anonymous to see what they can offer in support.In this way you and his Mum can say well you are welcome but you need to clean up your act first.

http://www.nasouth.ie/

Now NA may not be for everyone but there are other treatment programmes too

http://www.tallaghtdtf.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=29

One of the councellors listed here Liam O'Brien in Killinarden was an order priest and a teacher and helped out a family I know and he might be worth a call and would be used to these situations.

I hope this helps

Edit - you can help him out with clothes food ciggerettes etc and have him around for or bring him out for sunday lunch etc but what you cant do is give in to his addiction. So its a case that you say we love you man but hate what becomes of you when you are on drugs.

LegacyUser · 25-07-2009 4:19pm

NO NO NO NO NO !

Do not let him back to the house to ruin everyone elses happiness i have a sister who gave us hell you have to be cruel to be kind its only a matter of time before he is back inside if he is back with the old crowd funny they aren't bending over backwards for him why should you i understand your GF is his Mam but you but have other children to think about dont let him bring them down hes a big boy now didnt need his Mam when he was robbing and taking drugs sorry if its a bit harsh but it was the ONLY route that warked with my sister trust me we did everything and now 3 years later she is clean sober and in college

BE CRUL TO BE KIND and dont let this ruin a happy family

cowzerp · 25-07-2009 4:33pm

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: I'd say, let him back into the house. However, insist that he doesn't go anywhere near this gang of his, and insist that he goes to rehab if he has issues with drug addiction. However after being inside for so long I doubt that that would have exascerbated much. After being in jail, you never know, his attitude towards his mother could have genuinely changed. Then again, I'm a second chance kind of guy.

Worst advise ever, dont let him near your home-he's a waster and should be left out in the cold, if he messes your family about you know what to do, you reap what you sow and he's not doing himself any favours..

Nevyn · 25-07-2009 4:40pm

You have two very small children in the house and they should come first.
They need a safe, stable and secure home.
The step son is an adult and needs to sort himself out and there are services he can advail of.

thefeatheredcat · 25-07-2009 7:34pm

Paul,

Having someone that has had such a troublesome past in the house is probably not suitable for the others in the family; you need to protect what you have to ensure that you have a safe environment for your family.

If he did live with you it could cause a big rift between your gf and yourself and yourself and your gf's other child. And perhaps put your children at risk.

How is the relationship between him and his brother?
Has he had anything to say on this?

Give him support to get himself sorted out; he may have only gone back to the gang as he felt like he was being alienated from his family and had no other choice.

The least you can do is protect your family and support your gf through this, as she's probably torn on what to do and how she feels about this. Take it one step at a time and see how things go and move from there.

Queen-Mise · 25-07-2009 11:18pm

CDfm wrote: »

I dont think you would be able to get a barring order if he hasnt done anything wrong other than being an asshole.

You actually can get an order against someone on the threat or fear of action/violence.

Not sure of the exact name of which 'order' it is though

CDfm · 25-07-2009 11:45pm

Queen-Mise wrote: »

You actually can get an order against someone on the threat or fear of action/violence.

Not sure of the exact name of which 'order' it is though

You are probably thinking of a Safety Order but these are associated with Domestic Violence and normally are granted for an incident in the home over the preceeding 6 months.

I can't see how it would apply here at the moment unless he had made a specific threat.

If you wanted to check you could contact your local District Court Clerks office.

LegacyUser · 26-07-2009 1:53am

Splendour wrote: »

I feel sorry for this poor chap (easy to say when I'm not going through it I know). His Dad died when he was very young, then his Mom meets someone a few years later. It must have been difficult for him to lose his Dad and then have another man take over what he possibly perceived as being his role i.e. eldest male in the house. From his jealousy over the younger boys, I imagine he hasn't dealt with any of this too well.

Sentimental rubbish..... He is an adult. A lot of people have have no decent parents never mind one and a Dad who passed away. Its no excuse for being a thug and thgs dont learn by being talked to...

What does your partner want? Some of it is her call.

philologos · 26-07-2009 7:53am

cowzerp wrote: »

Worst advise ever, dont let him near your home-he's a waster and should be left out in the cold, if he messes your family about you know what to do, you reap what you sow and he's not doing himself any favours..

He's only just been out after a 3 year spell in prison. Is it really that unreasonable that he wants to see his mother?

I'm starting to feel that there is more behind this than is clear to the eye. His treatment from his family could be a part of his problem.

Yes, I think it's perfectly apt that the OP reach out to him in some way, but be firm with his stance and that him and his partner should make a loving effort to get him out of this life and put him on the straight and narrow.

The lack of compassion on here is quite something else.

Edit:

Unregistered wrote: »

Sentimental rubbish..... He is an adult. A lot of people have have no decent parents never mind one and a Dad who passed away. Its no excuse for being a thug and thgs dont learn by being talked to...

What does your partner want? Some of it is her call.

The OP says that the problems started when he was 15 he left home. He could have underlying emotional difficulties as a result of his treatment at home and certainly someone should have tried to stop him leaving home at 15?

It's a bit easy to say "he's an adult" however these problems seem to stem from adolescence.

CDfm · 26-07-2009 6:00pm

Jakkass wrote: »

He's only just been out after a 3 year spell in prison. Is it really that unreasonable that he wants to see his mother?

He wasnt on holiday he was jailed for being a dangerous criminal commiting armed robbery.He is asking his mother to sort his problems and not taking responsibility for his own actions.

I'm starting to feel that there is more behind this than is clear to the eye. His treatment from his family could be a part of his problem.

That may be so - but the OPs principle responsibility is the safety of his 2 youngest children, his partner and 19 yo stepson.The risks having him around would be very high.

Yes, I think it's perfectly apt that the OP reach out to him in some way, but be firm with his stance and that him and his partner should make a loving effort to get him out of this life and put him on the straight and narrow.

The lack of compassion on here is quite something

The guy needs to straighten himself out and there is nothing wrong helping him out that way or with essentials like food etc the safety of the family is the top priority and that should not be compromised.

He also needs to comply with the terms of his probation and from what the OP has said thats doubtful.

Would you bring him into your house??

starchild · 26-07-2009 10:41pm

hi paul, i think its a really difficult one as obviously you dont want to disrupt a happy home, is there any middle ground where you can try to help him

i personally believe that the only way he will change is if he moves away and loses that group of friends, perhaps you could help him with rent or something for somewhere new

sometimes a second chance can be everything

philologos · 26-07-2009 10:49pm

CDfm wrote: »

He wasnt on holiday he was jailed for being a dangerous criminal commiting armed robbery.He is asking his mother to sort his problems and not taking responsibility for his own actions.

He's just asking his mother to help him after coming out of jail. I don't hold the same view as you do, which is once a scumbag always a scumbag. That mentality actually causes more problems than it solves, and if that kind of attitude is employed this time, it could make this worse rather than better.

CDfm wrote: »

That may be so - but the OPs principle responsibility is the safety of his 2 youngest children, his partner and 19 yo stepson.The risks having him around would be very high.

We have absolutely no evidence that this guy would kill anyone in that family. I don't see why if his mother would reach out to him and actually show him some compassion instead of shunning him.

CDfm wrote: »

The guy needs to straighten himself out and there is nothing wrong helping him out that way or with essentials like food etc the safety of the family is the top priority and that should not be compromised.

Yes, but it is clear that this guy needs help in order to straighten himself out. I think it's ridiculous to say that "the safety of the family" is top priority when he is a part of the family, or at least he should be regarded as such. It seems in this situation this son is the thrash of the family and I think this mindset could contribute to some of the problems he currently has.

CDfm wrote: »

He also needs to comply with the terms of his probation and from what the OP has said thats doubtful.

He needs help to comply, or else he'll just be back in the slammer. The OP and his girlfriend have to decide, do they really care about this guy?

CDfm wrote: »

Would you bring him into your house??

I'd like to think I would. It's hard to say not being in this situation though, however it seems like there is more to this than meets the eye.

mirwillbeback · 27-07-2009 9:13am

Hi all,

Thanks for the advice.

Some seem to suggest that there's more to the situation than meets the eye, but that simply isnt true. We've tried everything to help over the years, as far back as 2003 we emailed eight local politicians looking for help as he had over 50 charges against him, was out of control and kept just getting released on bail to reoffend. One time, he was in court 3 days in a row for robbing cars the night before, and each time he was released. Another time, he ran from the court as he was called in, leaving me and his mam to face the judge.
One thing is that his mam certainly hasn't shunned him - quite the opposite. What really grates is that his mam and uncle have visited him in prison every week for the past 2 1/2 years, and the fact that none of his so called mates bothered to get off their drugged up arses to see him, you would think would let him see who cares about him. Instead, the 2nd day he's out he's up in his mate's house, and tells his mam that they were all out of their head.
He's 22 now, he needs to sort his life out. We are willing to help if he's willing to change, but he seems hell bent on self destruction.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Paul

djk1000 · 27-07-2009 9:26am

He's family, you can't walk away no matter what!

Your stepson is obviously hurting, he is lonely and damaged and as soon as he got out, he went for his junky friends comfort zone, a place where no one will challenge him and no one wants him to change, no one needs a commitment.

You have to show him that the grass is greener on the other side, you should use a carrot and stick approach. If he take a first step, like going to an Annonymous meeting with you, he is rewarded with a dinner out with you and his mum (make sure that he has a good time, show him that family life can be good). As he takes more steps, introduce him more and more back into the family, have him over for a BBQ, play some football with him and the younger kids in the park.

All of this should be conditional on him changing his ways slowly, NEVER bail him out if he gets into trouble, never give him a couch to sleep on and always understand that there will be slip ups and you need to distance yourself from him slightly when he does slip up.

Whatever he comes to you for next, make it conditional on him doing something in return for you.

WIZE · 27-07-2009 9:39am

I think you should help him from outside the home .

See how it goes for a couple of weeks . Make appointments with him and if he is not willing to keep them then he gets no help . Show him that trust needs to be built before peace can be restored . I sure he doesn't trust you and visa versa but there needs to be a start. I think the best thing to do is to go to a football game together or what ever his interest is . If he behaves like a dick you can always walk away .

Some people need help .

Jagera · 27-07-2009 10:21am

I believe you have 2 things to consider.

Firstly, keeping your family safe. You have a close knit family and you need to ensure it stays that way. He has access to your family and can do serious damage in his current state.

Secondly, rehabilitation will only come when HE wants it. Until then any support you give him is falling on almost deaf ears. However, one day it will get to a point where he wants out of that life and reaches out, and that's when you or his mam need to be there to grab his hand.

All the best with it.

weird · 27-07-2009 10:33am

I find it amazing that he just "went bad" at the age of 15. There's nothing acceptable about a 15 year old boy being out on tier own at 15 regardless of the circumstances. Where was the parenting when he was 15? Why was he allowed to be out on his own? What drove him to go into this life? Was he not accpeted at home?

Seems to me like we are only getting a very one sided view of this situation.

Yes, wether you like it or not he's a member of your family and saying he is not allowed in the house is no way to go about mending fences. That said you can't have anti-social behavior going on.

Sounds like this is a family that is badly in need of some counseling. There isn't going to be a quick solution.

CDfm · 27-07-2009 12:35pm

Hi Paul

It really is sad - I have a 19 year old son and thank god he is a great lad. Im divorced and have seen lots of nice kids get into problems over the years and its not their parents fault.

I know a 23 yo girl who has just completed rehab and the lenghts she has gone to keep away from "old friends" really helped her. She is over 4 months clear.

That could be your guy if he thinks jail etc is not normal and where he doesnt want to be.

Keep positive.

CD

LegacyUser · 27-07-2009 12:38pm

If he's just out from 2 armed robberies then he's probably on probation- if he's using drugs again then let his probation officer know- get him locked up again

CDfm · 27-07-2009 2:21pm

Unregistered wrote: »

If he's just out from 2 armed robberies then he's probably on probation- if he's using drugs again then let his probation officer know- get him locked up again

Well I wouldnt go that far as its the Probation Officers job to monitor him. I would point out to him that hanging around the people he hangs around with can lead to increased police attention and a return to jail.

You should point the risks wouldnt he be better off on a FAS course if he qualifies.

The Big Red Button · 27-07-2009 2:40pm

weird wrote: »

I find it amazing that he just "went bad" at the age of 15. There's nothing acceptable about a 15 year old boy being out on tier own at 15 regardless of the circumstances. Where was the parenting when he was 15? Why was he allowed to be out on his own? What drove him to go into this life? Was he not accpeted at home?

Now that's a bit unfair. Some of the best parents can end up with messed up kids - and vice versa. And as to why he was allowed out on his own - it's quite difficult to physically restrain a 15 year old boy if he wants to go somewhere!

CDfm · 27-07-2009 4:42pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd like to think I would. It's hard to say not being in this situation though, however it seems like there is more to this than meets the eye.

I didnt mean this hypothetically - but as a would you bring a 22 year old drug user who has just come out of prison home and put them up.

Probably not.If you have done fair dues to you.

Most people wouldn't and not doing it because you have young kids is reason enough.

Lots of people don't because they are afraid - if not of the person themselves then their criminal associates -and rightly so.

philologos · 27-07-2009 4:53pm

CDfm wrote: »

I didnt mean this hypothetically - but as a would you bring a 22 year old drug user who has just come out of prison home and put them up.

Probably not.If you have done fair dues to you.

This is rather deceptive. This 22 year old is his girlfriends son, a part of his family. I feel that they are obligated to help him out and quick before he gets in more trouble.

He should have never been allowed to leave and move out at the age of 15. That's the root of these issues in my interpretation.

CDfm wrote: »

Most people wouldn't and not doing it because you have young kids is reason enough.

Most people wouldn't take in a 22 year old on drugs that they have no connection with, but as for taking in your son after being in jail. That's a different matter altogether.

CDfm wrote: »

Lots of people don't because they are afraid - if not of the person themselves then their criminal associates -and rightly so.

I'm aware, but when this is a relative of yours, I believe you are obligated to help in any way possible.

Nevyn · 27-07-2009 4:56pm

There comes a point even when a person is family that the well being of the more vulnerable members of the family have to be put first.

There are services available to him having just been released and he should make use of them if he is serious about rehabilitation and changing his ways so that he can be eventually welcome back into the family.

CDfm · 27-07-2009 5:02pm

Jakkass wrote: »

This is rather deceptive. This 22 year old is his girlfriends son, a part of his family. I feel that they are obligated to help him out and quick before he gets in more trouble.

He should have never been allowed to leave and move out at the age of 15. That's the root of these issues in my interpretation.

And how do you stop him? They went to Court with him and if he wouldnt obey the Courts and police what were they to do. Chain him up

Most people wouldn't take in a 22 year old on drugs that they have no connection with, but as for taking in your son after being in jail. That's a different matter altogether.

Its not that different really. The son is an adult.

I'm aware, but when this is a relative of yours, I believe you are obligated to help in any way possible.

The OP wants to help him but stops at taking him in because of previous behaviour and 2 young children.

He has an overiding duty of care there that trumps the 22 vyear olds needs.

philologos · 27-07-2009 5:08pm

CDfm wrote: »

And how do you stop him? They went to Court with him and if he wouldnt obey the Courts and police what were they to do. Chain him up

The OP doesn't give any credence to these problems starting before he was 15. Perhaps some clarification is warranted.

However, I don't know any reasonable person who would let their 15 year old leave home. The Gardaí should have been sent out to look for him if he didn't come home.

CDfm wrote: »

Its not that different really. The son is an adult.

He wasn't when the problems began, and I suspect that there are other family problems behind this.

CDfm wrote: »

The OP wants to help him but stops at taking him in because of previous behaviour and 2 young children.

Sometimes in life, one has to reach out to people in order to promote lasting change. From politics to family disputes this is how the world works.

CDfm wrote: »

He has an overiding duty of care there that trumps the 22 vyear olds needs.

I disagree with you here. The 22 year old is more in need than he ever was. He needs to be helped effectively to get out of this situation, and to get himself straight. This is his girlfriends son, not some random stranger.

CDfm · 27-07-2009 6:07pm

Jakkass wrote: »

The OP doesn't give any credence to these problems starting before he was 15. Perhaps some clarification is warranted.

However, I don't know any reasonable person who would let their 15 year old leave home. The Gardaí should have been sent out to look for him if he didn't come home.

There really is very little you can do- once a child is 16 they can pretty much live where they want and there is very little you can legally do. Parents have duties and obligations but limited rights of enforcement.

We should agree to disagree on taking him in as its not helping the OP -the 22 year old is a man and you cannot force him to do anything.

Now at 22 if he still doesnt want to live a normal life there is even less they can do to help if he doesnt want it.

mirwillbeback · 28-07-2009 9:55am

Jakkass wrote: »

The OP doesn't give any credence to these problems starting before he was 15. Perhaps some clarification is warranted.

Clarification -

problems started when he was about 13, he was mitching school, getting suspended etc. Started taking hash ( as far as we know ) when about 14. We went to social worker as we knew where it was leading to. Social worker at one stage said " just give him a hug " and " if i got involved with every troubled teenager i'd have no time to do anything ". Still have her name actually, would love to see if she is still performing to such a high standard.

He left our house at 15 to live with his grandparents ( on fathers side ). 1st night he stayed there he robbed the wallet belonging to their spanish student.
Stayed a while there, then his uncles where drugs were found. Given last chance and both robbed money and took drugs there and left.

We went to court to take him back under a curfew, whereby he had to be in by 11pm. Never adhered to it, and we'd ring the gardai who would bring him back, ring the doorbell. When we would tell them he wouldn't stay in, they would tell us that once the porch door was closed, they had done their job and when he went out again to ring them again.

He took to sneaking out in the middle of the night, and robbing cars. As I said earlier, we went to the courts after these curfew breaches and were told just to continue to call the police every night. We got to know the gardai quite well, and they sympathised fully with us, they knew we were trying our best, and that the law was not sufficient for childrens crimes. Additionally, when we contacted politicians to see what could be done, one of eight, Eamonn Gilmore contacted us back, though admitted there just were no facilities available. Funnily enough, the then Minister for Children Mary Hanafin never even had the dignity to reply to our calls or letters.
Trust me, no one wants to know when you have hassle.

weird · 28-07-2009 10:59am

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Clarification -

problems started when he was about 13, he was mitching school, getting suspended etc. Started taking hash ( as far as we know ) when about 14. We went to social worker as we knew where it was leading to. Social worker at one stage said " just give him a hug " and " if i got involved with every troubled teenager i'd have no time to do anything ". Still have her name actually, would love to see if she is still performing to such a high standard.

He left our house at 15 to live with his grandparents ( on fathers side ). 1st night he stayed there he robbed the wallet belonging to their spanish student.
Stayed a while there, then his uncles where drugs were found. Given last chance and both robbed money and took drugs there and left.

We went to court to take him back under a curfew, whereby he had to be in by 11pm. Never adhered to it, and we'd ring the gardai who would bring him back, ring the doorbell. When we would tell them he wouldn't stay in, they would tell us that once the porch door was closed, they had done their job and when he went out again to ring them again.

He took to sneaking out in the middle of the night, and robbing cars. As I said earlier, we went to the courts after these curfew breaches and were told just to continue to call the police every night. We got to know the gardai quite well, and they sympathised fully with us, they knew we were trying our best, and that the law was not sufficient for childrens crimes. Additionally, when we contacted politicians to see what could be done, one of eight, Eamonn Gilmore contacted us back, though admitted there just were no facilities available. Funnily enough, the then Minister for Children Mary Hanafin never even had the dignity to reply to our calls or letters.
Trust me, no one wants to know when you have hassle.

What part have you or his mother played in this? It seems to me you're quite content to absolve yourself from any responsibility for how he's turned out... even thought you're his parents! You should have looked inward at your family dynamic and resolved this many years ago...

It is so sad how you found the suggestion on giving him love abhorrent... no wonder her turned out like this!

Here's what I think happened and I base this from personal experience having seen it replicated time and time again.

You started a new family with his mother and in the process basically shunned him. You admited to sending him off to live with the grandparents so you could have your own little family without him. No wonder he acted out!

You looked at him and his behavior as "the problem"... "the hassle". You contacted agencies and politicians looking for help with your "problem". He was a child, not a "hassle" ffs! When what you should have done was look inward and thought "what can I change about myself to accommodate him better? What can I do that help him?" "what have I done to make him react like this?". After all, the onus was on you to do this as you joined his family... not the other way around.

Children aren't born bad, he's not a "scumbag" as other people have said. He is self medicating. This is a person in pain. He's not in a rational emotional state. He's been on his own since 15 and now he's just gotten out of jail after a 3 year stint. He doen't have the life skills needed to live on his own! He doesn't know how to get a job, or take care of himself properly! he needs to be taught how to get a job. Be taught how to pay rent and blance a current acocunt. he also needs years of therapy so he can learn how to interact with other people in a positive manner. He's 22 years old, with no job, just got out of jail and I bet is unemployable and uneducated. This is you and his mother's fault. Harsh words I know... but this is your fault as you are his parents.

I feel so sorry for this poor kid. He been though all of this and now, he's getting crap off you when he wants help fom his mother! he has no life skills ffs of course he needs help!

You tried to treat the symptoms and not the cause of the illness and did so in manner that fit your best interests and not his.

You and his mother need to admit to yourselves and to him that you failed him as parents. That he's paid for his crime, that your actions directly or indirectly forced him to do. You're going to say that you love him and you're going to do everything in your power to see that he becomes a happy, stable adult. That he's just as much a member of your family as all your other children.

He also needs to admit that his life is in bad place and he has to want it to get better.

He needs an activity that will make him feel better about himself and not leave his hands idle. A job would be ideal but I don't think it's going to be easy for him to get one right off... also if he got one he'd loose it as he's not used to being responsible.

He's needs something with minimal responsibility that increases over time. Manual labor would be ideal. Some place far away from his current surroundings and connections. Working on a farm would be great.

You didn't "raise" this child. You fobbed him off on his grandparents. When that didn't work he went out on his own at 15 and did his best to survive. No wonder he was a delinquent!

In short, you caused this mess and it is your responsibility to do whatever it takes to get him out of it.

The problem isn't him, it's the man in the mirror. Unless you fix this he's gonna be in and out of jail the rest of his life and causing all sorts of misery. His life will be horrible.

Nevyn · 28-07-2009 11:14am

The 22 year old is an adult and has to learn to look after himself and take responsiblity for his actions, no one can fix him other then himself.

philologos · 28-07-2009 11:29am

Thaedydal: You've repeated that again and again on this thread, but it is clear that these issues stem from far earlier and that there is parental responsibility for what has happened to this guy throughout his life. The attitude of let him sort it out himself, means that he'll probably be right back in the slammer, knowing pretty much that his mother doesn't even care about him. Tell me would you like to be in that position?

Nevyn · 28-07-2009 11:37am

Jakkass having seen first what drugged addicated and criminal cousins have done in terms of tearing thier famlies apart and ruining the lives of thier younger siblings there are times when you have to cut off a finger to save the hand and there are plenty of ways of being suportive of a person who is willing to work at sorting themselves out with out having them in the family home and causing suffering on innocent children.

There are many types of love and tough love is one of them and I have never suggest that his mother didn't love him and doens't not still love him but she has two children under the age of 10 in that house hold and the 22 clearly has no respect for her or for the family and to say they would be a 'disruptive influence' in the family home is a huge understatement.

irishgrover · 28-07-2009 11:52am

weird wrote: »

What part have you or his mother played in this. it seems to me you're quite content to absolve yourself from any responsibility for how he's turned out... even thought you're his parents! You should have looked inward at your family dynamic and resolved this many years ago...

It is so sad how you found the suggestion on giving him love abhorrent... no wonder her turned out like this!

Here's what I think happened and I base this from personal experience having seen it replicated time and time again.

You started a new family with his mother and in the process basically shunned him. You admited to sending him off to live with the grandparents so you could have your own little family without him. No wonder he acted out!

You looked at him and his behavior as "the problem"... "the hassle". You contacted agencies and politicians looking for help with your "problem". He was a child, not a "hassle" ffs! When what you should have done was look inward and thought "what can I change about myself to accommodate him better? What can I do that help him?" "what have I done to make him react like this?". After all, the onus was on you to do this as you joined his family... not the other way around.

Children aren't born bad, he's not a "scumbag" as other people have said. He is self medicating. This is a person in pain. He's not in a rational emotional state. He's been on his own since 15 and now he's just gotten out of jail after a 3 year stint. He doen't have the life skills needed to live on his own! He doesn't know how to get a job, or take care of himself properly! he needs to be taught how to get a job. Be taught how to pay rent and blance a current acocunt. he also needs years of therapy so he can learn how to interact with other people in a positive manner. He's 22 years old, with no job, just got out of jail and I bet is unemployable and uneducated. This is you and his mother's fault. Harsh words I know... but this is your fault as you are his parents.

I feel so sorry for this poor kid. He been though all of this and now, he's getting crap off you when he wants help fom his mother! he has no life skills ffs of course he needs help!

You tried to treat the symptoms and not the cause of the illness and did so in manner that fit your best interests and not his.

You and his mother need to admit to yourselves and to him that you failed him as parents. That he's paid for his crime, that your actions directly or indirectly forced him to do. You're going to say that you love him and you're going to do everything in your power to see that he becomes a happy, stable adult. That he's just as much a member of your family as all your other children.

He also needs to admit that his life is in bad place and he has to want it to get better.

He needs an activity that will make him feel better about himself and not leave his hands idle. A job would be ideal but I don't think it's going to be easy for him to get one right off... also if he got one he'd loose it as he's not used to being responsible.

He's needs something with minimal responsibility that increases over time. Manual labor would be ideal. Some place far away from his current surroundings and connections. Working on a farm would be great.

You didn't "raise" this child. You fobbed him off on his grandparents. When that didn't work he went out on his own at 15 and did his best to survive. No wonder he was a delinquent!

In short, you caused this mess and it is your responsibility to do whatever it takes to get him out of it.

The problem isn't him, it's the man in the mirror. Unless you fix this he's gonna be in and out of jail the rest of his life and causing all sorts of misery. His life will be horrible.

I honestly think that this is the most disagreeable post I've ever read on boards....:(

weird · 28-07-2009 12:12pm

irishgrover wrote: »

I honestly think that this is the most disagreeable post I've ever read on boards....:(

That's really not helpful at all IMHO. If you disagree with me then state why... but the OP has asked for this community's opinion and that one is mine.

Further to the point I believe the reason we have people like this in our society is because the parents have not done their jobs. We are all too quick to blame the child when they are just another victim.

I see these kids every day, delinquents... in shops and on the Luas. Sure, we want to give 'em a slap but then I think "where are their parents?" These kids probably have so much worse than you can even contemplate.

As far as the OP goes, and I'm sorry if this inflamitory, but there is no excuse for a child being on the streets and on his own at 15. None whatsoever. I think it is criminal but yet he speaks about it as it's par for the course.

It seems to me like the OP signed up for the mom and not her son. Her son didn't fit easily into his plan and pushed him out. When he starts to act out he gets labled a "bad seed". Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe we are dealing with Damien from the Omen. Maybe he's the antichrist... but I somehow doubt it.

Sounds to me he's another lost child in a man's body.

Faith · 28-07-2009 12:17pm

weird wrote: »

That's really not helpful at all IMHO. If you disagree with me then state why... but the OP has asked for this community's opinion and that one is mine.

Further to the point I believe the reason we have people like this in our society is because the parents have not done their jobs. We are all too quick to blame the child when they are just another victim.

I see these kids every day, delinquents... in shops and on the Luas. Sure, we want to give 'em a slap but then I think "where are their parents?" These kids probably have so much worse than you can even contemplate.

As far as the OP goes, and I'm sorry if this inflamitory, but there is no excuse for a child being on the streets and on his own at 15. None whatsoever. I think it is criminal but yet he speaks about it as it's par for the course.

It seems to me like the OP signed up for the mom and not her son. Her son didn't fit easily into his plan and pushed him out. When he starts to act out he gets labled a "bad seed". Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe we are dealing with Damien from the Omen. Maybe he's the antichrist... but I somehow doubt it.

Sounds to me he's another lost child in a man's body.

The OP stated that his gf has two sons. He gets on fantastically with the second. If your assessment was correct, then the second son of the gf would also have been pushed out and started to act out criminally. He didn't though, so I think you are completely off the mark. Furthermore, you comments are nothing but hurtful to the OP, and provide no constructive advice at all.

weird · 28-07-2009 12:18pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Jakkass having seen first what drugged addicated and criminal cousins have done in terms of tearing thier famlies apart and ruining the lives of thier younger siblings there are times when you have to cut off a finger to save the hand and there are plenty of ways of being suportive of a person who is willing to work at sorting themselves out with out having them in the family home and causing suffering on innocent children.

There are many types of love and tough love is one of them and I have never suggest that his mother didn't love him and doens't not still love him but she has two children under the age of 10 in that house hold and the 22 clearly has no respect for her or for the family and to say they would be a 'disruptive influence' in the family home is a huge understatement.

This kid's mother and step father have allot they owe to him in my opinion. No wonder he is angry and disapointed.

It's all well and good to say "sort yourself out" but if you don't have the skills to do so that's another thing. This kid at 15 was put out of his home and did what he had to survive.

I suspect you were lucky enough to have a home and family who looked after you. I bet you never had to wonder how you clothes would get paid for.

Seems to me like you need to realise not everyone has had it as well as you have.

weird · 28-07-2009 12:20pm

Faith wrote: »

The OP stated that his gf has two sons. He gets on fantastically with the second. If your assessment was correct, then the second son of the gf would also have been pushed out and started to act out criminally. He didn't though, so I think you are completely off the mark. Furthermore, you comments are nothing but hurtful to the OP, and provide no constructive advice at all.

Wrong. This other son may have delt with this in another way. Maybe this gent was the daddy he always wanted while the other son felt dejected and when he didn't play allong was shunned. We do not all react the same way to these sorts of situations and further more it was the OPs responsibility to make sure both boys had a home... not just one.

The advice I gave is very helpful. He needs to sort this out because wether he likes it or not it's his responsibility. Fact is unless he does this poor kid is gonna be right back in jail.

CDfm · 28-07-2009 12:24pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Thaedydal: You've repeated that again and again on this thread, but it is clear that these issues stem from far earlier and that there is parental responsibility for what has happened to this guy throughout his life. The attitude of let him sort it out himself, means that he'll probably be right back in the slammer, knowing pretty much that his mother doesn't even care about him. Tell me would you like to be in that position?

Jackass - as a parent it isnt that clear.I am so lucky I havent been in that situation but I know people who have been.

The guy just thinks the life he lives is more attractive and doesn't want to leave it behind. He is an adult and if he does end up back in jail its his responsibility and not his mothers or Paul's or his Uncles. They would visit him again.

From what Paul has posted they have not abandoned him at all. They have been innovative and pro-active from the getgo.

What Paul has posted is proactive and rather than giving up -which many people would he is getting ready to have another go.

For the guy to overcome his problems would take commitment which he may not feel ready to give. Thats not to say his family will write him off and they havent this past 10 years.

I think what Paul is asking is twofold -can anyone see a spark of hope or are is there anything that is worth exploring or agencies worth talking too. I can't see how over analysing it can help as they probably have already done that themselves.

They are looking at ways to approach it for a positive outcome but which keeps their family safe too.

You can lead a horse to water etc .........

mirwillbeback · 28-07-2009 12:33pm

weird wrote: »

This kid's mother and step father have allot they owe to him in my opinion. No wonder he is angry and disapointed.

It's all well and good to say "sort yourself out" but if you don't have the skills to do so that's another thing. This kid at 15 was put out of his home and did what he had to survive.

I suspect you were lucky enough to have a home and family who looked after you. I bet you never had to wonder how you clothes would get paid for.

Seems to me like you need to realise not everyone has had it as well as you have.

Honest to God I hope this is trolling and it's sad if it isn't.

- i absolved myself of any responsibility

we spent years trying to help him

- we found the idea of giving love abhorrent

what we found abhorrent was that a troubled child was dismissed as " just needing a hug " to stop him robbing cars and taking drugs

- that i basically shunned him

despite giving him 3 years of attention, bringing him to footie, bringing him to my footie, trying everything to get a connection

- i didn't look inside and ask myself to change

yeah, i should have wondered was I too strict insisting he wouldn't rob cars and do drugs in our house with other children around

- he's getting crap off me when all he wants is his mother

i havent seen him or talked to him, and if all he wants is his mother, why is he going back to his drug gang when she has told him if he does she can't support his choices and needs to help himself

- we failed him as parents

great, if you can offer us some counselling we'd appreciate it, particularly as you can judge us from a internet forum. luckily with the other 3 children we seems to have fluked the test

- we caused this mess

how dare you be so judgemental

- the problem is the man in the mirror

cheers for that, maybe you could tell me how i can change my flaws. and there was me thinking I was perfect.

Thanks so much for sorting all this out for me, I'll bring him back with his drugs tonight, sure we can do the family thing around a bag of heroin and chat about where I have made the mistake, and perhaps tomorrow we can go and look for job openings counting hen's eggs.

I think your post was one of the most, ignorant and unhelpful replies I've ever seen on Boards.

paperclip2 · 28-07-2009 12:37pm

Jeez Weird, tell us how you really feel.

If all responsibility was being absolved I dont think Mirwillbeback would be posting on Boards looking for help.

Hope is a finite resource. Especially the hope we have when we see someone we love hurting themselves. We keep hoping they'll change and that hope fuels our desire to help but with every failure we have less hope in the face of the reality. Its up to this guy to do something to give his parents a chance to be hopeful for him again.

At some point he needs to take responsibility for his life. Maybe this kids parents failed him but if they did I dont think it was through lack of love.

If we're speculating on how this family operated than I'll say his history, to me, looks like a kid who got the message that he was the most important thing in the universe, and then one day real life kicked in and he had to share his toys, and his mother. He looks like a chap who has no idea how to tolerate frustration which is something that we generally learn through being disciplined as kids. Sometimes seperated parents overindulge their kids and let them away with things. Thats something I've seen replicated time and time again, and God knows I've been guilty of it too.

The reality is that he is now 22, his family are willing to help him but having been down that road with him already they are justified, I think, in waiting for this guy to come some way towards them and show that he is sincere in his wish to change.
I've worked in prisons and there is a certain element of 'poor me' from some of the guys. The ones who make valid changes are the ones who are honest with themselves and start the process of change there. There are support services in prison, limited and insufficient in many cases but one which does work fairly well is the education service. Engaging with that would have helped him towards gaining the kinds of skills needed to make real changes on the outside. Theres no indication he did anything with his time inside except sat it out.
Words are easy to say but its actions that tell the real story. Also there is a chance that the family dynamic is such at this moment, that his family aren't really the right ones to help him, that there's too much history that could get in the way of real help on both sides.

I've waffled enough.

weird · 28-07-2009 1:08pm

CDfm wrote: »

Jackass - as a parent it isnt that clear.I am so lucky I havent been in that situation but I know people who have been.

The guy just thinks the life he lives is more attractive and doesn't want to leave it behind. He is an adult and if he does end up back in jail its his responsibility and not his mothers or Paul's or his Uncles. They would visit him again.

From what Paul has posted they have not abandoned him at all. They have been innovative and pro-active from the getgo.

What Paul has posted is proactive and rather than giving up -which many people would he is getting ready to have another go.

For the guy to overcome his problems would take commitment which he may not feel ready to give. Thats not to say his family will write him off and they havent this past 10 years.

I think what Paul is asking is twofold -can anyone see a spark of hope or are is there anything that is worth exploring or agencies worth talking too. I can't see how over analysing it can help as they probably have already done that themselves.

They are looking at ways to approach it for a positive outcome but which keeps their family safe too.

You can lead a horse to water etc .........

disagree completely. I have a son and there is no way I would ever allow him to be on his own from the age of 15. That's unacceptable. I would do anything to make sure they he was happy.

I don't think anyone would find prision "attractive" I doubt he likes living like this at all. No one likes living in misery.

paperclip2 · 28-07-2009 1:20pm

weird wrote: »

disagree completely. I have a son and there is no way I would ever allow him to be on his own from the age of 15. That's unacceptable. I would do anything to make sure they he was happy.

I don't think anyone would find prision "attractive" I doubt he likes living like this at all. No one likes living in misery.

My brother was an alcoholic at 15, what would have made him happy then would have been an unending supply of drink and no-one nagging him to please stop drinking. What do you think my parents did?

As for living in misery you would be so surprised at how many people chose to live there because its safer than changing and making the effort to do those things that would make them truly happy. In my work I see it every day. Literally every day and it is so sad.

CDfm · 28-07-2009 1:21pm

weird wrote: »

disagree completely. I have a son and there is no way I would ever allow him to be on his own from the age of 15. That's unacceptable. I would do anything to make sure they he was happy.

I don't think anyone would find prision "attractive" I doubt he likes living like this at all. No one likes living in misery.

Well how could you stop all these things happening - you can't.He may not like prison but is willing to take the risk of it.

I was in a bar in Dorset St years back and the barman put on the DVD Scarface with Al Pacino and well you had to be there.

Paul and the boys mother didn't plan for this and while a retrospective is fine where can they go for help in the now. What do you suggest?

weird · 28-07-2009 1:21pm

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Honest to God I hope this is trolling and it's sad if it isn't.

- i absolved myself of any responsibility

we spent years trying to help him

- we found the idea of giving love abhorrent

what we found abhorrent was that a troubled child was dismissed as " just needing a hug " to stop him robbing cars and taking drugs

- that i basically shunned him

despite giving him 3 years of attention, bringing him to footie, bringing him to my footie, trying everything to get a connection

- i didn't look inside and ask myself to change

yeah, i should have wondered was I too strict insisting he wouldn't rob cars and do drugs in our house with other children around

- he's getting crap off me when all he wants is his mother

i havent seen him or talked to him, and if all he wants is his mother, why is he going back to his drug gang when she has told him if he does she can't support his choices and needs to help himself

- we failed him as parents

great, if you can offer us some counselling we'd appreciate it, particularly as you can judge us from a internet forum. luckily with the other 3 children we seems to have fluked the test

- we caused this mess

how dare you be so judgemental

- the problem is the man in the mirror

cheers for that, maybe you could tell me how i can change my flaws. and there was me thinking I was perfect.

Thanks so much for sorting all this out for me, I'll bring him back with his drugs tonight, sure we can do the family thing around a bag of heroin and chat about where I have made the mistake, and perhaps tomorrow we can go and look for job openings counting hen's eggs.

I think your post was one of the most, ignorant and unhelpful replies I've ever seen on Boards.

Why was this kid on his own at age 15? Why did you allow that to happen?

Anyone one can bring a kid to fottie, it doesn't mean you are emotionally available!

No, I am completely wrong here.. you're his parents and everything is fine and dandy with him... oh wait it isn't.

No child can put themselves out of the house at 15.

Do you know why people do herion? When you do heroin you nod out, and enter a world void of emotional and physical pain... at least until you come to. He's self medicating and trying to escape the pain.

The reality of this situation is harsh and yeah it is hard to look at yourself and say "I really let him down" but that's what it's going to take.

Anything that he is is a direct result of his up bringing.

You rather deal with this by being sarcastic. Yeah a bit of soul searching would do you no harm.

This kid, and he is a kid... a 22 year old child... needs help.

Once he gets that help, the first thing they are going to try to figure out is why he is self medicating and I bet my monthly salary that being 15 and on his own had allot to do with it.

You need to get this kid help. get him in a program because he is in pain, out of control, and lacks any skills to properly care for himself.

As far as your saracstic invitation goes to meet up with you, I'd be happy to do so. I'd be happy to meet with the both of you if it would mean this kid gets some help. I'd be happy to find out why he's doing this to himself. I'd like to see him get better so he doesn't end up robbing me some day to buy heroin... and I am not being sarcastic.

I have seen this so many times before. The parents say "we did all we could do" and next thing we have streets full of heroin users. He's your family ffs you can't be happy seeing him like this.

Stepson out of jail, what to do?

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