So what if everyone decided not to pay

jon1981

was listening to Gerry Ryan this morning and he came out about the PTSB interest rise mentioned in the paper. Gerry basically said he is going to urge the Irish people to make a stand and not pay basically! Got me thinking if the whole country did this, would the goverment, banks, Gardai be powerless to do anything about it? It would surely destroy the country!

subway

the whole country arent on PTSB variable rates.
the only thing will happen is you get a black mark on your credit.

why would you want to destroy the country?

jon1981

subway wrote: »

the whole country arent on PTSB variable rates.
the only thing will happen is you get a black mark on your credit.

why would you want to destroy the country?

true, but other banks might not be too far behind.

subway

not everyone is on a variable rate mortgage at all, and not many people agree with this.
its fixed rates one week, variables the next.

i dont see how anything other than damaged credit records will come of this.
you cant protest a contract you signed.

the banks need to become profitable and they make profits by charging interest to customers.
you gotta pay up

D3PO

all you would do is screw up your credit.

People have signed a loan agreement and on a variable agreement that agreement allows PTSB do exactly what their doing. If there not happy sign up to a fixed rate mortgage.

subway

jon1981 wrote: »

true, but other banks might not be too far behind.

and you didnt answer my question.
why would you want to destroy the country?

regardless of whether it would have that affect or not, are you saying you would watch the country burn to save a few quid on your mortgage?

jon1981

im not saying i agree with this, i just might a comment regarding a radio presenter that has a lot of viewers advocating this! I don't agree with it, the banks have enough trouble with defaulting developers as it is, never mind homeowers doing it en masse, if it turned to this who would want to lend money to Ireland. So NAMA takes the toxic debts off PTSB...PTSB go ahead and hike the interest rates and its business as usual, i think alot of people see it like this, that the pressure is taken off the bank but more pressure is placed on the homeowner.

D3PO

Jon whilst I dont agree with what PTSB are doing the bottom line is its a numbers game.

if they are going to get out of this mess they need to make money, to make money right now with all the defaulting thats going on they need to raise margins.

if they dont get out of this mess the irish taxpayer is on the hook. a raise in taxes to cover this would equal more than a half point interest rate rise so it is the lesser of 2 evils.

jon1981

D3PO wrote: »

Jon whilst I dont agree with what PTSB are doing the bottom line is its a numbers game.

if they are going to get out of this mess they need to make money, to make money right now with all the defaulting thats going on they need to raise margins.

if they dont get out of this mess the irish taxpayer is on the hook. a raise in taxes to cover this would equal more than a half point interest rate rise so it is the lesser of 2 evils.

fair point, as i dont have a mortgage... i would prefer the mortgage holder to take the interest rise over the tax payer making up the shortfall.

bangersandmash

Surprising that people are shocked by this. They were told that historically low interest rates would not last and that rate rises in the medium term were very likely, whether via the ECB or banks trying to improve their margins.

Jon while PTSB benefitted from the government guarantee (for a fee), they might not be part of NAMA.

It's unfortunate that this is distracting from more worrying news today. NAMA is likely to take on loans from foreign banks also :eek:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0724/1224251232860.html

D3PO

you would like to think this could be handled in a better way had they announced it would only be a quarter point whilst still painfull for people it would probably be accepted a little more.

I jsut hope the government are taking note and factoring these things into any decisions they make on the mccarthy report. It is likely this will go across the board in terms of lenders and will further reduce the disposible income of mortgage owners.

But knowing how inept this FF led government are they will still propably try to tax us out of this mess

D3PO

bangersandmash wrote: »

Surprising that people are shocked by this. They were told that historically low interest rates would not last and that rate rises in the medium term were very likely, whether via the ECB or banks trying to improve their margins.

Jon while PTSB benefitted from the government guarantee (for a fee), they might not be part of NAMA.

It's unfortunate that this is distracting from more worrying news today. NAMA is likely to take on loans from foreign banks also :eek:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0724/1224251232860.html

its not really a surprise given that many developers will have loans out on developments across the board including foreign banks. if they didnt do this it would end up with court case after course case as banks outside of NAMA protect their interests.

Once and its a BIG presumption that NAMA value properties well below their worth and assuming and again its a BIG assumption NAMA is profit making in the medium term its not an issue.

If this falls on its face though we are so screwed its not even worth thinking about.

subway

D3PO wrote: »

its not really a surprise given that many developers will have loans out on developments across the board including foreign banks. if they didnt do this it would end up with court case after course case as banks outside of NAMA protect their interests.

Once and its a BIG presumption that NAMA value properties well below their worth and assuming and again its a BIG assumption NAMA is profit making in the medium term its not an issue.

If this falls on its face though we are so screwed its not even worth thinking about.

NAMA is destined to fail.
we are screwed.

back on topic /
sorry OP, thought you were advocating this.
its a stupid idea, being peddled by a shill for the property market who wants the little people to get back to buying houses.

D3PO

subway wrote: »

NAMA is destined to fail.
we are screwed.

.

how about explaining why you think its destined to fail ?

The legistlation isnt even complete, people dont know what value will be paid on the property. Saying its destined to fail now is just a throwaway comment

subway

i dont want to drag this thread off topic is the main reason.
if you want more info, read http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewforum.php?f=50

SkepticOne

D3PO wrote: »

its not really a surprise given that many developers will have loans out on developments across the board including foreign banks. if they didnt do this it would end up with court case after course case as banks outside of NAMA protect their interests.

Once and its a BIG presumption that NAMA value properties well below their worth and assuming and again its a BIG assumption NAMA is profit making in the medium term its not an issue.

If this falls on its face though we are so screwed its not even worth thinking about.

I think this is in response to ACC pursuing one of its debtors in the courts recently. The problem here is that if ACC were to succeed the true value of the asset (next to nothing) would become known and the general public would then know the extent to which they are being scr*wed.

The_Conductor

bangersandmash wrote: »

NAMA is likely to take on loans from foreign banks also :eek:

20 billion of the 30 billion in assets that its proposed to transfer to NAMA are in the UK- not in Ireland at all, and another 2 billion elsewhere in the EU........

People are viewing NAMA as a 'failed bank' which is to be used to sop up the toxic loans from the Irish banking sector. Its actually nothing of the sort- its a branch of the NTMA- and is an asset management agency- not a toxic bank at all.

SkepticOne

smccarrick wrote: »

20 billion of the 30 billion in assets that its proposed to transfer to NAMA are in the UK- not in Ireland at all, and another 2 billion elsewhere in the EU........

People are viewing NAMA as a 'failed bank' which is to be used to sop up the toxic loans from the Irish banking sector. Its actually nothing of the sort- its a branch of the NTMA- and is an asset management agency- not a toxic bank at all.

Even before NAMA was set up, the idea of a "bad bank" was never a bank as such. But it will sop up the toxic developer loans as well as a some good ones.

gaius c

Getting outraged by PTSB is daft when you consider that every citizen in the state is going to be covering bank bad debts, whether they bought a house or not. Priorities are all wrong folks.

Senna

Heard on the news that there as been some ulgy confrontations between angry customers and PTSB staff, from the sounds of it its been people getting angry (and spitting) on the staff members at the local branches. These are staff who what noting to do with these decisions, i'd have to question the stupidity of anyone who would target these front line staff.
They may as well go up to the hospital and take a swing at a nurse for the HSE's money wasting:rolleyes:

orbital83

Option A: Bank raises interest rate. Bank doesn't make a loss on mortgages. Jon pays more interest.

Option B: Bank doesn't raise interest rate. Bank makes loss on mortgages. Bank depletes capital. Bank requires state bailout. Income levy rises to cover cost of bailout. Jon (and everybody else) pays more taxes.

Option C: Free lunch for everybody!!

Oh, if Option C does come around, give me a shout.
I'll probably be in my rented apartment, working out how much I'm paying out of my salary each month to bail out the property bubble while listening to mortgage holders griping on the radio about the fact they took out some stupid multiple of their salary to buy an over-priced house and now can't afford to pay it back and how it's my problem.

DJDC

Whats has become obvious throughout this crisis has been the financial illiteracy of the Irish general public. This isnt just an Irish issue as proved by numerous mortgage and investment scandals globally.

AIB, BOI and others will all increase rates in the next 30 days I guarantee. The UK lenders are doing the same and it seems we may be entering into an inflationary environment due to hints of a recovery in the US and pressures from Asia. In short, if you are only just able to afford your mortgage repayments now, you could be in big trouble a few months down the line. House prices have further to fall yet and the increased cost of mortgages will be a big driver in these falls.

Agent J

If the country starts taking its economic advice from Gerry Ryan then we are most certainly doomed.

Jaysoose

Agent J wrote: »

If the country starts taking its economic advice from Gerry Ryan then we are most certainly doomed.

Bingo...Post of the year!!!

The_Conductor

Jaysoose wrote: »

Bingo...Post of the year!!!

At least he said Gerry Ryan, and not Joe Duffy

Jaysoose

smccarrick wrote: »

At least he said Gerry Ryan, and not Joe Duffy

Talk to Joe....i often wonder does the Office of Joe duffy have thousands and thousands of filing cabinets with 'Joes Notes' stored away in them cos they guy is constantly scribbling away with a HB pencil during the show. All that info has to go somewhere.....doesnt it.

Joe and Gerry.....i would rather listen to Bono....shudder..

ronbyrne2005

People with PTSB variable rate loans are free to move to another provider once they arent in negative equity. They have a contract with the bank and these people werent complaining when their variable rates came down from 6$ to 3%. Get real people.

Rb

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

People with PTSB variable rate loans are free to move to another provider once they arent in negative equity. They have a contract with the bank and these people werent complaining when their variable rates came down from 6$ to 3%. Get real people.

Agreed.

Gerry Ryan is merely appealing to the drooling idiots who believe that the word "variable" means that it will only come down.

If people choose not to pay, well let them at it, let them screw their credit rating so much that they'll never be lent another euro (though these very people shouldn't have been given a cent in the first place) and we can all laugh at them when the economy picks up and they want a new car but can't get one.