is doing 2 arts a mistake?

daymz

hi all,

i am a total beginner in the clare/limerick area who is keen to get involved in a martial art. my reasons are 2 fold, self defence and fitness.
i had been thinking of doing aikido for self defence, and also something else like maybe tang soo do for conditioning. would that be a mistake, would it be too much for me as a beginner?
should i just go for BJJ on its own instead? i figure that may tick both boxes, but i dunno if it is as effective as aikido for self defence (please correct me if i'm wrong!).
krav maga would probably be ideal, but i don't think there are any local classes for it.

any advice would be appreciated guys, thanks!

Nothingcompares

Aikido would be largely useless for self-defence.

daymz

thanks for the reply, though i'm surprised by what you say!

why would it be useless, i thought the whole purpose of aikido was self defence?

cowzerp

i'd agree with nothingcompares-bjj is great and would be good for condition and self defense. Try it if its in your area..

daymz

thanks cowzerp, can you say why you would not endorse aikido, i'd really appreciate your input?
this will be my first foray into the world of martial arts and i'd really like to make an informed decision if i can.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I honestly think its unwise to choose a style based on its effectiveness as a method of Self Defence, simply because very, very few of us will ever be in a position whereby we'll need it.

And when you do, and I'm speaking from experience as someone who has worked on doors in bar's and clubs for almost 20 yrs, there's nothing more effective than a quick pair of fists, a kick in the bollox and (on the street) leg it.

Choose a style of Martial Arts primarily based on something which you will enjoy, and from all account Aikido is hugely enjoyable. Buy and read 'Angry White Pyjamas', its a great read.

Secondly, as a beginner its normal to change clubs & styles a few times before finding a system which 'clicks' so don't be afraid to look around and visit a few club. If nothing else, it'll give you an insight and understanding of other Martial Arts system's and broaden your mind.

.

daymz

thanks a lot makikomi, i've been getting by on the ol' kick in the bollox and run tactics so far in life!

i'll defo have a look at that book too, cheers. i'd like to check around like you suggest, just sit in for a class in each. are most clubs open to letting you do that? for free of course, i defo can't afford to join every class i'm interested in!

unreggd

Summer Fancy Stratum wrote: »

there's nothing more effective than a quick pair of fists, a kick in the bollox and (on the street) leg it

I agree 100%

I can see people expecting to be conditioned masters who will call on their attacker a la Neo, and defend themselves with perfect form & technique, probably saying all their moves out loud

It's great havin a MA under you're belt, but they really need a "How to use Martial Arts as self defence" class

As Summer Fancy Stratum said, bita smarts, killer instincts, and dont hang around!

cowzerp

daymz wrote: »

thanks cowzerp, can you say why you would not endorse aikido, i'd really appreciate your input?
this will be my first foray into the world of martial arts and i'd really like to make an informed decision if i can.

Im not going to pretend i know lots about Akido but as far as i know its about using your opponents force against them, kind of pushing them away from you using there momentum, thats a really basic way of explaining it but if that is the sort of Art you want i'd do Judo which does the same thing but is more likely to end the attack when you slam the opponent on the ground, Akido is quite peacefull in my opinion,

BJJ is more about engaging your opponent and making them unable to fight by putting them asleep or damaging there joints through locks and holds

Boxing in my opinion is 1 of the best self defense systems as it teaches you to hit fast and hard and not lose balance or end up on the ground

either way it would be worth trying a few till you find 1 thats effective and most of all-Fun.

daymz

hmmm, i shall meditate on this...

thanks a lot for the replies lads, much appreciated!

ColinJennings

daymz wrote: »

i'd like to check around like you suggest, just sit in for a class in each. are most clubs open to letting you do that? for free of course, i defo can't afford to join every class i'm interested in!

Most should let you see what they are about before asking you to commit. In the school I help run (Dublin based TKD, so it is no use for you) we offer 2 months free training before we ask for a committment.

daymz

thanks for the reply colin, i'll defo have to check them out so!

Crazi_Monkey21

im no expert,and you shouldnt listen to this but.

i think you should focus on 1 MA for now,its not a problem learning different ones.but i think focusing on one at a time would be best

Martin25

Hi
I think that it depends upon what you want to do and what your goals are?
Many young people like to compete and test themselves out and for example are interested in; boxing,kickboxing,Muay Thai, BJJ competitions or MMA,karate etc.
Others are interested in just the self defence aspect and go for that.
There are groups which practice the traditional Chinese and more exotic less well known arts such as Silat and South East Asian martial arts.
I think that the advice of trying just one based on your goals is sound as doing more than one can be confusing at the start. One art may conflict with another, eg a hard blocking linear style vs a softer style.
By the way I don't understand how someone can say that Aikido is of no value?
good luck in your training
Martin

Niall Keane

There's an old saying:
onehundred blades, none of them sharp!

daymz

thanks lads, i think i will go down the road of checking each class and see what i think.

my goals are self defence and fitness, i loathe violence to be honest. this is why i was thinking of doing aikido and something else, i just didn't know if i was suited to BJJ. i don't mean for that to sound disrespectful of BJJ, i just figured a lot of MMA fighters would be doing it and i wouldn't quite fit in there.

but, thanks to you guys, i feel a bit more open minded about it all now so i'll give a few different ones a fair shake.

cowzerp

daymz wrote: »

i just didn't know if i was suited to BJJ. i don't mean for that to sound disrespectful of BJJ, i just figured a lot of MMA fighters would be doing it and i wouldn't quite fit in there.

Most BJJ players dont do MMA, And even the 1's that do train the way there meant to for BJJ and you would not even know they done MMA.

Let us know how you get on, then you can practise what your shown at home..then you'll be proper practising a martial art..

Furious-Dave

daymz wrote: »

thanks lads, i think i will go down the road of checking each class and see what i think.

my goals are self defence and fitness, i loathe violence to be honest. this is why i was thinking of doing aikido and something else, i just didn't know if i was suited to BJJ. i don't mean for that to sound disrespectful of BJJ, i just figured a lot of MMA fighters would be doing it and i wouldn't quite fit in there.

but, thanks to you guys, i feel a bit more open minded about it all now so i'll give a few different ones a fair shake.

Loathing violence is all well and good, however, the guy on the dreaded street doesn't think like that and has no problem with violence, he may even get a buzz off it. Being able to fight doesn't mean you are lowering yourself to their level either. My personal believe on what makes a good self defense system is the main body of the training being an all-round system, preferably MMA (this will also make up ultra fit), to give you a solid base in striking, wrestling and ground fighting. This is supplemented then with something developed specifically for the street, Krav Maga, Urbancombatives etc. Developing explosive sprinting is also a good idea.
Aikido is cool but knowing little about it I always felt that it's the one you do after you have done your striking/wrestling style. Sort of a "learn how to fight before you learn how not to fight" type thing.

I hope this is of some use, otherwise just ignore it

daymz

cool man, i'll defo post how it goes. not sure if i'll wait til college starts first or just get crackin right away, but i'll defo be doin it sometime in the next couple of months.

daymz

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Loathing violence is all well and good, however, the guy on the dreaded street doesn't think like that and has no problem with violence, he may even get a buzz off it. Being able to fight doesn't mean you are lowering yourself to their level either. My personal believe on what makes a good self defense system is the main body of the training being an all-round system, preferably MMA (this will also make up ultra fit), to give you a solid base in striking, wrestling and ground fighting. This is supplemented then with something developed specifically for the street, Krav Maga, Urbancombatives etc. Developing explosive sprinting is also a good idea.
Aikido is cool but knowing little about it I always felt that it's the one you do after you have done your striking/wrestling style. Sort of a "learn how to fight before you learn how not to fight" type thing.

I hope this is of some use, otherwise just ignore it

i know what you're saying man, when i said i hate violence i meant that i'm not interested in learning martial arts just to go dig the heads off lads. it's precisely BECAUSE the guy on the street likes to start something that i'd like to learn to defend myself well. krav maga is something i'd be very keen on, i just dunno if it's being done in limerick or clare (if anyone knows please tell me!).
but ya i'm not gonna rule anything out from here on in til i've had a good look at it first, including BJJ. cheers for the reply!

daymz

if anyone on here is currently doing BJJ then i'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Hephaestus

daymz wrote: »

if anyone on here is currently doing BJJ then i'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I recently starting training in BJJ & I'm really enjoying it.

You said in a previous post that your two main reasons for taking up a martial art are for fitness & SD. BJJ would tick both of those boxes IMO.

When rolling (BJJ term for sparing) you are constantly trying to use the techniques you've learnt against a resisting opponent (ie. somebody trying to prevent you from doing whatever your trying to do) which leads to increased body strength & cardio.
You will use literally every muscle group in your body & I'm not going to lie to you, it's tough going and you'll be sore & bruised in the beginning.
But this is a good thing as its a sign that you are actually working your body hard.
We also do strength & conditioning exercises which aid in building the parts of the body which are important in BJJ.
Hip movement (when lying with your back to the mat) for example is of fundamental importance in BJJ so we'll do drills to strengthen areas of the body which will help with this.

In relation to the self defence aspect, every time I spar in class I can see that it works.
When you make mistakes against resisting oponents (which is quite often in my case:() you are punished immediately for it which enables you to understand what you did wrong & learn from it.
On the other hand when you use the correct technique and gain a strong position/submission from it, it instills a belief/confidence in the techniques which you're being thought.

Its a tough art to learn & can be very frustrating especially when starting out. But this is because there no Bullsh*t with it & you have to work hard to learn how to implement the techniques when rolling with someone.
When you initially start rolling with guys who have been training a while you will continually walk into sweeps/submissions etc, but again this is just a sign that it actually works & you just need to stick at it & accept its part of the course.

One thing I noticed in one of your previous posts is that you seem wary/concerned that the environment in a BBJ club may be a bit too rough for your liking with MMA fighters all over the shop.
When rolling, submissions like arm bars, chokes wont be applied at full force by an opponent but will be gradually applied to give you plenty of time to tap. So unless your a dick and decide your to tough to tap you'll be given plenty of time to tap. So dont let this be a reason not to give BJJ a crack.

I hope this is of some help

daymz

thanks a million for your reply mate, you've really given me a great insight into it. i've been looking into it more and i'm starting to get pretty interested, really i guess i should just empty my head of any preconceptions i may have and get in there!

ninjasurfer1

daymz wrote: »

i've been getting by on the ol' kick in the bollox and run tactics so far in life!

I always remember my original shotokan instructor (He was a 5th dan at the time) saying, "The best form of defence is a good pair of runners".
Having said that, he had no objection to teaching how to plant the "good pair of runners" in someone's face/crotch if needed!! :D

He also advised learning everything you could from every discipline, but at the same time concentrating on the core basics. (There's a quote he kept repeating (from Sun Tzu?) that goes something along the lines of: "It's better to practise one kick 1000 times per day than practise 1000 kicks once per day"). i.e. There's something to learn from every discipline, but learn the basics properly!!!!

Enjoy the learning!!!:)

Furious-Dave

While BJJ is a great sport, but it is not good for self defense, despite what anyone says. Sure when you're in the gym tying people like knots it can seem extremely useful in any situation, but you have to bare in mind that guys that start fights often have friends and if you go to ground with one the others will kick and stomp. Ok there may be situations where it will work, but it's very risky.

That said BJJ will offer great fitness training, but it ticks only one of your boxes.

daymz

Furious-Dave wrote: »

While BJJ is a great sport, it is not good for self defense, despite what anyone says. Sure when you're in the gym tying people like knots it can seem extremely useful in any situation, but you have to bare in mind that guys that start fights often have friends and if you go to ground with one the others will kick and stomp. Ok there may be situations where it will work, but it's very risky.

That said BJJ will offer great fitness training, but it ticks only one of your boxes.

hmmm, that brings me back to my initial question. what would you recommend for self defence dave? do you think i'd be getting in over my head if tackled 2 arts?

Furious-Dave

I already said what I believe to be good for self defense
What college are you going to?
Don't get me wrong though. You'll have a lot of fun doing BJJ.

daymz

ah yes, sorry! you actually did kinda advocate multiple arts (MMA and krav maga i think?), not sure about MMA but i'd love to do the krav maga.

i'll be starting in the virgin megastore (mary i) in september, was at UL last year doin a cert and i've caught the college bug!
doin the liberal arts degree this year, looking forward to it.

Furious-Dave

I don't really know what's available down that direction. Can you still avail of the clubs in UL? If so it says on their website that there's both Krav and MMA, amongst others there. http://www.clubsandsocs.ul.ie/

daymz

cool, thats a new page. the previous clubs and socs page was full of broken links so i never went back.
i think i'm still entitled to join them, hopefully, that'd be great! will defo do the krav maga there.
i see the aikido is gone though, shame. still, plenty to choose from there!:)

cowzerp

Furious-Dave wrote: »

While BJJ is a great sport, but it is not good for self defense, despite what anyone says. Sure when you're in the gym tying people like knots it can seem extremely useful in any situation, but you have to bare in mind that guys that start fights often have friends and if you go to ground with one the others will kick and stomp. Ok there may be situations where it will work, but it's very risky.

That said BJJ will offer great fitness training, but it ticks only one of your boxes.

Dave without been smart, and im not disagreeing with all your post on BJJ and self defense, i have to say on a 1 on 1 encounter BJJ would be great for self defense-against an untrained lad you could literally submit them in seconds, or if the case be that he is intent on harming you snap his arm for his troubles, and then change to an easy choke and say nighty night.

Now where i do agree with you is if there is multiple opponents, then going to ground is foolish imo, Boxing is the way to go here as you can strike hard, fast and still stay upright as your not giving up balance with 1 leg off the floor like kicking, kicks will just put you on the ground in this situation fast so i'd avoid them unless i had serious space and confidence that i wont end up on my hole, Knee's although awesome need you to clinch so there in the grappling category here too.

Also op, MMA is available too you so you should seriously check it out, its not full of scumbags and trouble makers and "is the most complete martial art there is" and will cover boxing, thai boxing and grappling, assuming the coach is well rounded and can coach all the ranges. If you dont try it due to preconceived ideas then your the 1 losing out im afraid.. Best of luck.

Furious-Dave

HI Cowserp. I think what I was getting at last night when I said "Ok there may be situations where it will work, but it's very risky" was that you can never know for sure if there are friends, and it's a big risk that could end up being very costly.
I feel that I should make it clear that I'm mainly talking about BJJ on it's own, or as the main SD style. daymz, if you do get to do Krav, BJJ (or Judo) would be a good secondary system.

daymz

ya dave, i'm looking at that combo now very seriously. i'll defo be doing KM, i figure BJJ will be of great benefit to fitness and stamina/durability.

thanks for all the replies and help lads, it's great to see such activity on this forum.

Zen65

Hi Daymz,

I'd like to repeat some of the advice already offered here. Starting with 2 MA's at the same time is a very risky strategy, unless you plan to train 4 times a week, every week. In practice you will not learn enough from any 1 MA to use for self-defense unless you commit to doing it at least twice per week, so if you take up 2 arts you will need to commit to training 4 times. Also, the two arts may have concepts that disagree with each other, so you could get yourself confused right from the start. I would suggest that you pick a MA for self-defense and then also if you wish take up something completely different for building stamina & fitness (squash, running, cycling, etc).

Krav Maga is probably a good place to start if you want to build up a quick self-defense knowledge, though I don't know whether it's a suitable MA for long-term training (I suspect it would get boring after a while). A more appropriate long-term MA would be karate, TKD, boxing, MMA etc if you wanted to keep a strong self-defense element to it. I like Aikido (to watch) but to apply it successfully in self-defense is very difficult and requires a very high level of skill. Judo and BJJ are good also but they are very ground-based and may not be easily applied in the 2-attacker situation.

There is no single best MA, despite what many posters like to suggest. The best MA, like the best hairstyle or partner, is the one that's right for you. So go find your MA partner, and don't start the relationship by two-timing!!

Keep the faith,


Zen65

daymz

Zen65 wrote: »

There is no single best MA, despite what many posters like to suggest. The best MA, like the best hairstyle or partner, is the one that's right for you. So go find your MA partner, and don't start the relationship by two-timing!!

Keep the faith,


Zen65

haha, nice analogy! thanks for the advice mate, i will be wary in my approach not to take too much on. i'll see how the KM goes, it's a fair point you make about training 4 times a week cos i already play football twice a week so that could complicate things.

Ger Healy

Hey daymz,
If you are looking for a martial art that will give you a good foundation for self-defense and boast your fitness levels while remaining completely functional then your in luck. Check out this link http://www.crazymonkeydefense.com/cmdp
We will be moving our gym into the limerick city very soon. But at the moment you can train with us follow link below

daymz

thanks ger, the website and clips look pretty cool but i get the feeling it is costly. please correct me if i'm wrong tho.
i probably shoulda mentioned in this thread that i'm on a student budget, so thats a factor in any decision!

Tones69

2 is good, If i was to pick 2 alone it would be Kickboxing/Muay thai and BJJ

Tones69

cowzerp wrote: »

Dave without been smart, and im not disagreeing with all your post on BJJ and self defense, i have to say on a 1 on 1 encounter BJJ would be great for self defense-against an untrained lad you could literally submit them in seconds, or if the case be that he is intent on harming you snap his arm for his troubles, and then change to an easy choke and say nighty night.

Now where i do agree with you is if there is multiple opponents, then going to ground is foolish imo, Boxing is the way to go here as you can strike hard, fast and still stay upright as your not giving up balance with 1 leg off the floor like kicking, kicks will just put you on the ground in this situation fast so i'd avoid them unless i had serious space and confidence that i wont end up on my hole, Knee's although awesome need you to clinch so there in the grappling category here too.

Also op, MMA is available too you so you should seriously check it out, its not full of scumbags and trouble makers and "is the most complete martial art there is" and will cover boxing, thai boxing and grappling, assuming the coach is well rounded and can coach all the ranges. If you dont try it due to preconceived ideas then your the 1 losing out im afraid.. Best of luck.

Agreed 100%, I had a smiliar conversation with a friend the other day, I was basically telling that even without submissions, BJJ is great for knowing positions and how to hold a guy down etc, its not all just fancy submissions. His attitude is like a lot of other guys i know, "ah i wouldnt be into all that grappling crap, just wanna be able to throw a punch and defend myself" :rolleyes:

colinlaird000

In the eyes of the law, is throwing a punch defending yourself? Whats the difference between self defence, and knocking the absolute tripe out of your attacker when he moves at you? what is reasonable force? I think either way youre buggered. All of the alive martial arts would be the best bet, because grappling or not, at leas you are put into a controlled pressure environment, where your technique is tested with appropriate resistance. IMHO the most important thing is not soiling yourself and making as quick an exit as possible. All those street situations are pretty much no win scenarios. You just have the option of legging it or playing the doomed hero and slugging it out and hoping you get very very lucky.

Personally ive never trained Krav Maga so cant really comment on what its like. Like all martial arts in my opinion, its probably good fun. At the end of the day thats my priority. As long as its fun, you'll keep turning up, and if you keep turning up to "alive" training sessions, you might get better at defending yourself. I dont like the idea of krav maga up here as the local clubs have a prefix like "commando", "extreme" or "combat". Those key words wouldnt look good in front of a judge or compensation agency lol

daymz

thanks for the replies lads, i haven't really considered kickboxing at all actually. might have a look at the clubs around for that too.

i hope krav will be fun cos i defo see myself doing that one.

Martin25

You know what, give JKD a try!

daymz

JKD?

is that jeet kune do?

i hear that it can vary wildly, that some classes teach a flashy variant that is of no real use. i just read that somewhere once though, i dunno if thats actually the case.

i also don't think its being done in the limerick area, at least not that i've seen.

Martin25

Our JKD is not flashy at all just very basic and self defence oriented.
It has a very good philosophy as well.

Ger Healy

daymz wrote: »

thanks ger, the website and clips look pretty cool but i get the feeling it is costly. please correct me if i'm wrong tho.
i probably shoulda mentioned in this thread that i'm on a student budget, so thats a factor in any decision!

What costly?
as in what would you expect to pay for you training?

daymz

well the website shows that it's $1000 for the online membership, i dunno how much it costs to do in the gym week in week out but i just said it looks like it could be pricey.

i saw a post once before that someone was paying €60 a month on top of the €100 up front membership fee for jiu jitsu in town, i thought that was a bit steep if i'm honest but i'd pay it if i liked the programme. i don't mind paying a bit every week/month, but any large up front fee would blow me outta the water cos i'm skintypoo frankly.

thats why the college clubs would appeal, should be a lot cheaper i'd say.

Blazer

I did Tang So Do for a while..was a free class run at JJB. Instructor was Des Galligan in Limerick..unfortunately only a few of us turned up every week and it finished after about 10 weeks. Used to really enjoy them as you'd really work through the 2 hours.
Des was a real nice guy but I'd say he could be tough enough on his classes which is what you really want.
Himself and another guy called Keith used to train us..both were extremely good.
His web is below in case your interested. I know he has a few places in around Limerick.


http://www.galliganstangsoodo.com/galligan.asp

daymz

wow, thats such a shame that free classes came to an end due to a lack of participation!

ya, i had a look at that site before and it looks interesting. i think if the krav maga is being done in UL this year i will defo do it, if not tho i would consider this among others.

thanks for the reply!

Blazer

yeah it was a pity alright
I keep meaning to join his proper classes but with tag/soccer/gym etc i don't get much time.

daymz

what was the tang soo do like anyway, just so i have an idea?

getz

aikido is a thinking mans martial art,judo is a sporting martial art,both are good for self defence,and both came from jujitsu[not a sporting style] i have graded in all three styles as well as thai kick boxing , shotokan ,and shukoki karate,all are good for self defence,just find the ones that suits you, i started in judo when i was 9, i now teach shukoki and i am now 68,