Selling

gimmick

Saw this mentioned in another thread and rather than go OT there, said I would start this one.

Selling, for me, is an almost forgotten art in pro wrestling. Why it is forgotten I cannot understand as for pro wrestling, a worked "performance" in search of a better word, to be truly believable, not only does the offense have to look legit, how it is taken (sold) has to look equally if not more legit.

A well sold finisher, or even a well sold punch or whatever does wonders for the aggressor and gives the match a better feel. No selling can ruin a match. How frustrating is it when you watch a match where one works over a body part only for the other to forget about in 3 minutes later and his leg/back/arm is working like nothing ever happened? Prime example of this is the infamous Cena Vs HBK WM Main Event here Cena no sold his arm to a degree where the match just lost its way for me. HBK spend a considerable time fúcking it up, and nothing.

RVD and Benoit to use two prime examples are men who sold their offense very well, and indeed sold others offense great also. RVD after a giant Frogsplash would writhe in agony for a second holding his ribs as if to say "if it hurt me this much, imagine gow hurt that mother fcuker there must me". Similar to Benoits diving headbutt. It was masterful selling and storytelling by these guys. Benoit for his part was one of the greatest sellers ever in wrestling. If someone worked a part of his, he made damn sure that arm or whatever looked hurt.

There are many more but I have not enough time to go on.

So who are the great sellers of the day? Is selling a major pre requisite for your enjoyment of a match? Are there times when you feel a "no sell" is okay?

To answer those latter 2, it depends on the match. A no sell is okay in a hardcore type blow off match to a feud where the wrestler cannot lose and has to use his adrenalin to keep going.

Thoughts???

callaway92

Steph McMahon is excellent at selling.
Batista is useless at selling.

flahavaj

Good topic.

I'll put something more in depth later, but as far as selling goes, Kobashi's selling of the knee in the tag with Misawa Vs Taue/Kawada from AJPW from 6/9/95 is the ultimate masterclass in how to consistently sell a body part throughout a match. Phenomenal.

Off the top of my head other guys who are/were great at it are James Gibson, Benoit, Bryan Danielson, Liger, Dean Malenko, Evan Bourne and El Generico.

As for worst, AJ Styles' performance in the final of the ROH Pure Title tournament was notoriously bad for his complete lack of attention to selling.

michael.etc...

Benoit's selling was utterly ungodly.

To counter Gimmicks' original post- i was never a fan of how RVD sold. Sure, it was cool that he sold the impact of his own frog splash by clutching his ribs. But the bigger picture to me, was that throughout a match, he would rarely long-term sell injured body parts. He may have had a leg worked over for 15 minutes, then suddenly busted out a Split Legged Moonsault, and monkey-flip,not to mention any number of kicks. And the way he would do it as well would sometimes bug me, as he would often do this stuff so athletically and filled with energy.

You're right about it being a lost art. In WWE terms, I blame creative/Vince/agents especially when it comes to the young guys. Guys are told to slow it down, sell, and work smart. Don't do anything flashy. But unless they're a big name, fans don't react to this in the context of a throwaway four-minute match on TV. Then the wrestlers in questions are either labelled as unable to to draw the crowd in, or if they do something extra or exciting, reprimanded for not knowing their spot. It's self-defeating, insular, shallow leadership. It's no wonder selling is lost in the suffle.

Bryan Danielson is absolutely wonderful at selling. Shawn Michaels is one of the best ever.

waltersobchak

for me best seller of all time is william regal.. just watch him selling a punch, hes unbelievable

Rjd2

I will get hammered for this but The Rock's selling was totally awesome, especially his selling of the Stunner. He understood this sports entertainment industry better than most.

chopperbyrne

Rjd2 wrote: »

I will get hammered for this but The Rock's selling was totally awesome, especially his selling of the Stunner. He understood this sports entertainment industry better than most.

Even with the smilie I'm not quite sure if you're joking or not.

Rocks "selling" of the stunner was awful. Big bounce back to his feet and then jump backwards or the stupid backflip he did at one the Manias.

The clue is in the name, you're supposed to be stunned after taking it. The best sellers of the stunner were the guys who took it well on their knees and then just either fell flat when Austin moved aside or fell to the side straight away.

Think it's Steve Blackman who takes it very well about twenty-five seconds into this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUMRjPQsTQI

Penn

Yeah, The Rocks twists and turns after taking the stunners at Mania was awful. No-one should end up vertical on their head after a Stunner. Overall though, The Rocks selling was pretty good

JP Liz

Best: Chris Benoit, Sting, Mr. Perfect, HBK, Ric Flair (sometimes HBK and Ric can oversell) Bret Hart, The Rock, Lita, Matt Hardy

Worst: Batista, Giant Gonzalez

waltersobchak

JP Liz wrote: »

(sometimes HBK and Ric can oversell)

like this?????;)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0BYSLdthvQ

rossie1977

michaels must have been watching the 1990 royal rumble where hennig oversold almost exactly like that against hogan

Rjd2 wrote:

I will get hammered for this but The Rock's selling was totally awesome, especially his selling of the Stunner. He understood this sports entertainment industry better than most.

scott hall bettered rock antics at WM18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIECQf554nI

chopperbyrne

Notice that Austin took it as it should be taken.

Bubs101

Think Christian's selling is very underated

rossie1977

Bubs101 wrote: »

Think Christian's selling is very underated

when i think of christians selling i always think of this first

callaway92

Bubs101 wrote: »

Think Christian's selling is very underated

yep, sold a wrist injury pretty well on ECW earlier on this year

gimmick

rossie1977 wrote: »

when i think of christians selling i always think of this first

What am I missing here?

EdK

Christian slamming himself off the mat possibly?

gimmick

Aha. Yes, thanks

Best: Chris Benoit,Jeff Hardy,Bret Hart,Edge,Ric Flair,Chris Jericho (also anyone who can sell a samoan spike)

Worst: John Cena,Batista,The Rock,Great Khali, Manu.

michael.etc...

To me, The Rock and Cena both get unfairly criticised when it comes to selling. They're a bit cartoony, and their facials sometimes suck, and especially with Cena, there's an element of awkwardness. But while they aren't smooth, they are able to generate huge sympathy, which is half the battle...

flahavaj

michael.etc... wrote: »

To me, The Rock and Cena both get unfairly criticised when it comes to selling. They're a bit cartoony, and their facials sometimes suck, and especially with Cena, there's an element of awkwardness. But while they aren't smooth, they are able to generate huge sympathy, which is half the battle...

Cena's facial expressions when taking a beating are incredible. Selling with facials in wrestling is a much neglected art IMO. Look at a guy like Morishima, one of my major peeves with him is the utterly blank expression on his face throughout a match, whether hes taking a hiding, dishing one out or whether he's just won the World Title. He needs to pay more attention to Kobashi and Yugi Nagata matches.

michael.etc...

flahavaj wrote: »

Cena's facial expressions when taking a beating are incredible. Selling with facials in wrestling is a much neglected art IMO. Look at a guy like Morishima, one of my major peeves with him is the utterly blank expression on his face throughout a match, whether hes taking a hiding, dishing one out or whether he's just won the World Title. He needs to pay more attention to Kobashi and Yugi Nagata matches.

Yeah, What you said there is totally right. I didn't make myself very clear- i meant that Cena's sometimes especially awkward, but not in relation to his facials. His expressions are goofy when he's on offence more so than selling. I'm watching Jericho vs Cena from August 05 right now, and Cena's a beast in this one, his selling is phenomenal.

Jolt2007

I was impressed by Cena's selling at I think it was Judgement Day this year against Big Show, he was selling being injured going into the match well and how he struggling to work around that. Shame he spoiled all that good work by ignoring all that at the end then skipping away like he just left a special massage parlour. Guess that brings us to the other lost art of ring psychology which is another topic for another day :pac:

I can't really blame guys for not selling like they should, performing impressive spots will get them over more than selling being to injured to perform them in a 4 minute tv match.

rossie1977

flahavaj wrote: »

Cena's facial expressions when taking a beating are incredible. Selling with facials in wrestling is a much neglected art IMO. Look at a guy like Morishima, one of my major peeves with him is the utterly blank expression on his face throughout a match, whether hes taking a hiding, dishing one out or whether he's just won the World Title. He needs to pay more attention to Kobashi and Yugi Nagata matches.

facial selling like you said is much neglected, cena and umagas facial selling at the end of their match at royal rumble was fantastic, steve austins facial selling against bret hart at WM13 towards the end of that match will go down in history as one of wrestling greatest moments

flahavaj

rossie1977 wrote: »

facial selling like you said is much neglected, cena and umagas facial selling at the end of their match at royal rumble was fantastic, steve austins facial selling against bret hart at WM13 towards the end of that match will go down in history as one of wrestling greatest moments

One of the best and most unique finishes to a WWE match this decade.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Flah, where's that match from ?

flahavaj

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Flah, where's that match from ?

Royal Rumble 2007. Awesome, awesome match.

Bubs101

flahavaj wrote: »

Royal Rumble 2007. Awesome, awesome match.

Great match let down by a **** finish. This the one with internal bleeding?

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

Great match let down by a **** finish. This the one with internal bleeding?

Not sure about internal bleeding. It was Last man Standing, Cena couldn't put him away no matter what he tried, he eventually goes psycho and chokes him out with the ring rope in the STFU and Umaga doesn't answer the 10 count? That ring a bell? I thought it was a f*cking epic finish.

Bubs101

flahavaj wrote: »

Not sure about internal bleeding. It was Last man Standing, Cena couldn't put him away no matter what he tried, he eventually goes psycho and chokes him out with the ring rope in the STFU and Umaga doesn't answer the 10 count? That ring a bell? I thought it was a f*cking epic finish.

Ah Ok, that was very good. Think i'm thinking about the first blood rematch where Umanga lost due to blood coming out of his mouth blamed on internal bleeding

Actually, come to think of it, Cena is bleeding in the picture:o

chopperbyrne

Bubs101 wrote: »

Ah Ok, that was very good. Think i'm thinking about the first blood rematch where Umanga lost due to blood coming out of his mouth blamed on internal bleeding

Actually, come to think of it, Cena is bleeding in the picture:o

You're thinking of the match Cena had with JBL last year. Think Cena used a chain around JBLs neck and he started spitting out blood. Personally I thought it was quite an innovative finish.

Cenas facial expressions when selling are excellent. The part of selling he lacks in is selling a body part being worked on for a whole match during his comeback. It could be a booking decision though. Benoit was excellent at that. Of the current batch of new(ish) stars in WWE, I'd say Punk does this best.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Is it just me or does Cena somehow look a little bit more bad ass with some blood on his forehead ?