Landlord Keeping Deposit (but he's not even registered)

Skywriter

I know this has been asked a thousand times before but I really would appreciate some advise. My friends & I moved into a house in Dublin on 1st September 2008 on a year long lease but had to move out last month as we were unable to afford the rent. Gave over a month's notice and guess what? He's keeping the money.

We moved out of the on Tuesday 30th June after giving our 35 days notice, plus a extra month's "warning" that we would be moving out if we couldn't find another tenant (previous tenant was relocated by his employer) which he said was no problem at all. Now our ex-landlord is refusing to pay us back our €1800 deposit as he claims we broke our lease (1 year) that only two of us signed - which he failed to mention each time I called him to discuss rent/moving out. I also placed the house up on daft.ie (as per his request) on May 22nd to find new residents only for him to say that we wouldn't let the first callers live there as they were on rent allowance.
He also claimed that he had to get solicitors involved in order to get the ESB bill transferred back to his name as there were unpaid bills - the ESB was paid via direct debit out of my account when it was due, no payment was ever late and I have all ESB & bank records to prove this.


After hearing all this I checked the Private Residential Tenancies Board's website only to discover that neither he nor the property has been registered. Does this mean that he's an illegal landlord, evading tax? He never gave us a copy of the lease and doesn't look like he's going to send one onto us now. But we do have a "Threshold" rent book, filled out & signed by him, including him ticking the box on page 7 stating that the Term of the Tenancy was monthly.

Maintenance of the house was never followed through, with unfinished roof work which he never chased down the builders to complete. A windowless bathroom's door which had to be broken down after the key broke on a bank holiday Sunday, trapping someone inside. We called the landlord to get a spare key to the house but he did not answer our call until the following day when he informed us that we would have to pay for replacement door and install it ourselves.

Can you please advise us on the best COA, we really need our €1800 (€450 each) deposit back, the house was absolutely immaculate when we left. Surely he cant get away with this?

**this post has already been sent to both Threshold and the Private Residential Tenancies Board but they have just giving me generic responses saying that we have to pay them if they are to look at the case. Any actual help here would be greatly appreciated. I'll be going to talk to Citizen's Advise on Thursday.

D3PO

firstly being registerd on the prtb and evading tax are two completly seperate things you cant assume one leads to the other.

secondly the prtb website isnt 100% up to date so checking online isnt definitive.

thirdly he has no legal right to withold your deposit, however he does have a legal right to sue for rent until september of this year assuming no break clause in the lease.

given the deposit would be i assume 1 months rent you are actually coming out of this better than you could have if he decided to take you to court.

suck it up you broke a legally binding contract did you really expect there to be no concequences ?

Imposter

D3PO wrote: »

suck it up you broke a legally binding contract did you really expect there to be no concequences ?

If they don't have a copy of said contract and he won't provide them with one how is it legally binding?

Skywriter

The website was last updated on 31st May 2009, he should have been registered long before that as he's be renting out the house for years.

And technically, I didn't break the contract as I didn't sign anything and he's refusing to send me a copy of the lease.

People are entitled to their deposit bank if they can find replacement tenants for the remainder of the contract, which I did find, and he said he wouldn't let them move in because one of them was on rent allowance.

petes

Skywriter wrote: »

T

And technically, I didn't break the contract as I didn't sign anything and he's refusing to send me a copy of the lease.

You did sign a lease. You mentioned so in your first post and your last.

Skywriter

Two of the lads signed the lease, me and the other guy weren't there on the day. I asked him to call 'round to the house with the lease for me to sign but he never did.

RentDayBlues

If you signed a lease they you are liable for the remaining rent unless you can sublet the lease - just because you think you found someone doesn't mean the LL has to let them move in! Its his property and his decision!

I would say in this case that you have one of 2 options:

1. Suck it up and go
2. Report him for not being registered and then approach the PRTB about initiating dispute resolution for the deposit, it will take some time though so be prepared

NewFrockTuesday

Tricky one. You didnt sign a lease therefore you dont have any rights. The two who did sign might be in a different boat, but those two did break their lease agreement with him and if the landlord is not happy with the replacement tennents, then you have to live with that. You cant expect him to let just anyone in to his property and it is his choice whether or not to accept rent allowancec and if he doesnt then thats fair enough.

I suspect to report him youre going to be handing out money too so look through your side of reporting thoroughly and find out how much it will cost you. Also find out the penalites involved for him to see if its even worth you reporting it. Remember, you have to back up and actively persue the case against him. Its not such a simple case of report and wash your hands and wait for the prosecution. You are part of the prosecution.

If it was me, honestly, I probably suck it up and move on. Sign the lease the next time and dont break it! Good luck

Skywriter

I know this whole thing is complicated, plus you have to keep in mind, the only thing I have in writing from him is the rent book I made him sign - where in the field "term of the tenancy", he wrote monthly (& the monthly rent).

D3PO

if you didnt sign the lease its a different story.

next question is did you physically give him the deposit or did you give it to somebody who did sign the lease to pass on. If its the latter then the landlord doesnt have "your" deposit only the deposit he got from the leaseholders.

therfore your entitled to your deposit back off the persons breaking the lease but if they arent getting "their" deposit back your going to ahve some fun trying to get it off them

NewFrockTuesday

I know this whole thing is complicated,

It will be very complicated if you actually persue it.

plus you have to keep in mind, the only thing I have in writing from him is the rent book I made him sign - where in the field "term of the tenancy", he wrote monthly (& the monthly rent).

Whats to stop him saying you signed that book yourself? Or that you even lived there? The lease will be examined - nothing more than that afaik. The whole case will be based on it. If youre not in, you cant win.

Im sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but to go after him will cost you more than your deposit and create so much stress for you , really think about whether or not its worth it. Im sorry this has happenned to you. It sucks, it really does, but sometimes its easier to pay the cost of the lesson and forget about it. Hes down tennents too - and in this market, is hardly likely to fill the hosue quickly if hes not open to rent allowance.

Skywriter

He has filled it. He had viewings the day after we moved out and got a new tenants there and then.

NewFrockTuesday

You didnt mention that he got tennents in straightaway. I hate when people just drib and drab the info. Its a waste of time replying to drip feeds. Take it from the top or not at all.

On Thursday, bring with you the ESB bills etc. You Landlord should be requested to produce the solicitors invoice and issue forth any bill he claims to have paid. Check the lease to see what ones were included.

Your named housemates should be involved in this - not just you. Are they all involved?

Have you photos of the state you left the house in? Has your LL claimed any damage to the property?

Im sure CAB will be able to rough out the cost of the persuit of this through the correct channels - are your mates willing to see it through at cost?

How old are you if you dont mind me asking?

Skywriter

Deepsense wrote: »

You didnt mention that he got tennents in straightaway. I hate when people just drib and drab the info. Its a waste of time replying to drip feeds. Take it from the top or not at all.

On Thursday, bring with you the ESB bills etc. You Landlord should be requested to produce the solicitors invoice and issue forth any bill he claims to have paid. Check the lease to see what ones were included.

Your named housemates should be involved in this - not just you. Are they all involved?

Have you photos of the state you left the house in? Has your LL claimed any damage to the property?

Im sure CAB will be able to rough out the cost of the persuit of this through the correct channels - are your mates willing to see it through at cost?

How old are you if you dont mind me asking?

Sorry for the lack of info, I don't really use forums much. I'm 25 and the other lads are around the same age.
All he's claiming is a dirty carpet, but that's bull cause we cleaned it to a better standard it was when we moved in (no photos though).
I'm just pissed off at how friendly, supportive he was about us moving out and then shafted us as soon as we were out the door - I've never had a landlord do this before.

Cheers for the advise about the bills, I'll take the signed rent book along too.

D3PO

Skywriter you still havent answered my question.

Did you physically hand your portion of the deposit to the landlord / letting agent and do you have a receipt for this ?

or
odid you hand the deposit to one of the other person renting the house who signed the lease

NewFrockTuesday

Skywriter wrote: »

Sorry for the lack of info, I don't really use forums much. I'm 25 and the other lads are around the same age.
All he's claiming is a dirty carpet, but that's bull cause we cleaned it to a better standard it was when we moved in (no photos though).
I'm just pissed off at how friendly, supportive he was about us moving out and then shafted us as soon as we were out the door - I've never had a landlord do this before.

Cheers for the advise about the bills, I'll take the signed rent book along too.

No worries. Im just not big on thread dripping. Dont mean to sound narky.

D3POs question is really important.

Calina

RentDayBlues wrote: »

If you signed a lease they you are liable for the remaining rent unless you can sublet the lease - just because you think you found someone doesn't mean the LL has to let them move in! Its his property and his decision!

I remain open to correction but in the event that the landlord refuses to accept the assignee of the lease - ie the people found - the tenants can end the lease without penalty.

OP = word of advice. Call Threshold.

Skywriter

D3PO wrote: »

Skywriter you still havent answered my question.

Did you physically hand your portion of the deposit to the landlord / letting agent and do you have a receipt for this ?

or
odid you hand the deposit to one of the other person renting the house who signed the lease

Sorry, we put the deposit directly into into his account through a local AIB branch, I should still have the receipt from the bank (I never throw stuff like that out). After that we put all rent into one of the lad's bank accounts and he lodged it into the landlord's account using online banking so that can easily be proven/tracked using statements.

NewFrockTuesday

What might be best to do is come back when youve talked to CAB. My own opinion is - Im sorry in advance - but its not worth persuing. Im sorry you have lost your hard earned dosh and it is a significant ammount if you have to save up a new deposit due to trickery. But the actual cost in time (not just yours) and with very fuzzy financial boundries, I would say forget it. Of course, I am (a) a complete flake and (b) have no motivation to persue as its not my money.

Where you all living now btw? Have you got a signed lease this time?

D3PO

sorry to be pedantic but your answer isnt clear to me.

Did you transfer money from your bank account to his re the deposit ?

Skywriter

D3PO wrote: »

sorry to be pedantic but your answer isnt clear to me.

Did you transfer money from your bank account to his re the deposit ?

No, no. That's just how we paid the rent on a monthly basis. For the deposit, I physically lodged it into his account in a bank.

Calina

D3PO, I think his view is that although the payment went from one account, it was a collective payment as far as they are concerned. IE, he is not going to go after one of his flatmates for the deposit since they are all in this together. They are probably friends. I understand where he is coming from.

OP please call Threshold. In my experience they have been very helpful.

D3PO

Skywriter wrote: »

No, no. That's just how we paid the rent on a monthly basis. For the deposit, I physically lodged it into his account in a bank.

ok in which case there is nothing to indicate from his side that it was from you.

He could claim the deposit was due to be paid by the leaseholders and therfore if you have paid a portion of the deposit it would be refundable by them as they have essentially sublet to you as you have never signed the lease.

D3PO

Calina wrote: »

D3PO, I think his view is that although the payment went from one account, it was a collective payment as far as they are concerned. .

My point here is that the lease is likely to mention the monthly rent and also the deposit that was due.

If the deposit was then paid collectively its likely to be considered to be paid by the leaseholders of which the OP is not. Therefore as the OP has no reciept from the landlord acknowleging he made any payment.

As the OP is for all legal purposes nothing more than somebody that sublet from his friends he has no legal rights to return of a deposit because it would be argued that he didnt pay one to the landlord and by all accounts he cant prove otherwise.

So my point is that what would happen assuming everything was rosy is that the landlord would return the deposit to the leaseholder(s) who would return the share to the subletters. So really its the persons that signed the lease owe the OP his deposit back and not the landlord.

He cant take a case to threshold against the landlord for this as he isnt the leseholder and didnt technically pay the landlord a deposit. The leaseholders however can.

Skywriter

D3PO wrote: »

ok in which case there is nothing to indicate from his side that it was from you.

Apart from my signature on the lodgement slip and the banks keep records of who pays in any money to accounts.

NewFrockTuesday

You could have been paying him money on a gambling debt. Are you going to subpoena his accounts?

We're not being obstructive, just realistic about how far youre going to get with this. As I say, yes, its galling and the LL is a <insert word of choice here>, but Ill tell you whats going to happen.

Youll go to CAB, youll explain from the top. Youll show the bills, the records and prove your upstanding tennency with your bank records, a copy of the lease (downfall here - not your name on there) and proof of leaving the house in an imaculate state (downfall here - no photos)

CAB will listen, shake their head, nod and agree that this is a cruel world we live in. They will make a call or two to confirm their position on this - which is to give advice and not act upon btw - so dont expect them to action anything because they are not in a position to and they cannot represent you in any way. They can just do what it says on the tin - advise.

Heres why....

Because a LL might ring tomorrow saying he is beingg harrassed by ex tennents who vacatated the property early breaking the lease, they tried to force rent allowance tennents in - knowing he does not accept RA and now are harrassing him for a deposit which he has had to use for repairs and lost rent on the property. And they were only subletting from their friends!!
What will i do?!

If he is not being fair and truthful now...do you really think hes going to have a change of heart when (powerless) agency calls him - even if he answers or doesnt hang up?

D3PO

deepsense is spot on. You can look at this from multiple different angles to try and find an argument or somethign to support you getting your deposit back, the realism here is your not going to get your deposit back.

Calina

Uhem, the agency to call is not CAB, it is PRTB and they have historically taken a dim view of landlords not returning damage deposits. Threshold are good for legal advice and I strongly advise the OP to call them. PRTB will investigate even if the tenancy is not registered if the complaint comes from the tenants' side. PRTB process however takes a while.

OP can, AFAIK, terminate a fixed term tenancy pre end if they find someone to assign the lease to and the landlord does not accept the assignee which appears to be the case here under current legislation.

In my view, it's not cut and dried "you won't get your deposit back" but it may take a while. Presumably those whose names are on the lease are also affected by this issue in which case...

NewFrockTuesday

In my view, it's not cut and dried "you won't get your deposit back" but it may take a while. Presumably those whose names are on the lease are also affected by this issue in which case...

Nobody said it was...its just the jumping through hoops makes it difficult.

**this post has already been sent to both Threshold and the Private Residential Tenancies Board but they have just giving me generic responses saying that we have to pay them if they are to look at the case. Any actual help here would be greatly appreciated. I'll be going to talk to Citizen's Advise on Thursday.

From OPs 1st post. I got the impression OP cant really afford to hand out money at the moment so went on that.

gar_29

Calina wrote: »

OP can, AFAIK, terminate a fixed term tenancy pre end if they find someone to assign the lease to and the landlord does not accept the assignee which appears to be the case here under current legislation.

i think i read that too, and it's slightly off topic, but what's to stop anyone in a similar situation from getting bob the local hobo from agreeing to act as an obviously unsuitable prospective tenant, let the LL refuse to take bob, and then the tenant can break the lease?

surely there's a reasonable right to refuse unsuitable tenants without prejudicing a lease?

D3PO

gar_29 wrote: »

i think i read that too, and it's slightly off topic, but what's to stop anyone in a similar situation from getting bob the local hobo from agreeing to act as an obviously unsuitable prospective tenant, let the LL refuse to take bob, and then the tenant can break the lease?

surely there's a reasonable right to refuse unsuitable tenants without prejudicing a lease?

id assume there is Gar.

Heisenberg1

Were you getting tax relief on your rent??if so then he
was registared for tax if you didn't get tax relief then call
the tax office and claim for it.

NewFrockTuesday

Any update OP?

baltazar

luzon wrote: »

Were you getting tax relief on your rent??if so then he
was registared for tax if you didn't get tax relief then call
the tax office and claim for it.

This is correct. I'm a legitimate landlord and submit a tax return every year, however, the number of non-legit landlords operating at the moment is frightning. The fact that this guy isn't registered with the PRTB (PRTB Registration form asks for tenant and landlord PPS numbers) and the fact that he won't/can't accept Rent Allowance tenants might suggest that this landlord is not paying tax on his rental income. Fines and penalties are quite severe for this at the moment and Revenue are looking for ways to raise money with the economy in the state it's in.

The Revenue Commissioners website is very good and will direct you on where you need to go to claim your rent relief. Although you may need the Landlords PPS number to claim rent relief I've heard stories of Revenue investigating cases based on addresses alone. They can link an address to a landlord through stamp duty records.

Well worth a shot! Any landlord recieving rent should be declaring the rental income!

whizzbang

baltazar wrote: »

This is correct. I'm a legitimate landlord and submit a tax return every year, however, the number of non-legit landlords operating at the moment is frightning. The fact that this guy isn't registered with the PRTB (PRTB Registration form asks for tenant and landlord PPS numbers) and the fact that he won't/can't accept Rent Allowance tenants might suggest that this landlord is not paying tax on his rental income. Fines and penalties are quite severe for this at the moment and Revenue are looking for ways to raise money with the economy in the state it's in.

The Revenue Commissioners website is very good and will direct you on where you need to go to claim your rent relief. Although you may need the Landlords PPS number to claim rent relief I've heard stories of Revenue investigating cases based on addresses alone. They can link an address to a landlord through stamp duty records.

Well worth a shot! Any landlord recieving rent should be declaring the rental income!

The revenue ask for the Landlords PPS if you can get it, if you can't then address is enough. I have never heard of anyone being denied the relief because of not having the PPS, otherwise it would basically allow the landlord to stay off the radar by just not giving out their PPS!

Isn't this tax relief really only there to highlight landlords who are not paying their tax?

Johnee

There's a lot of amateur second-guessing going on in this thread. OP, get proper advice from someone you can tell the whole story too in one sitting. From what you've said, it does sound like you may have a good chance of being entitled to your deposit back but it may take quite a while to work through the system.

Contacting Revenue and the PTRB to let them know your landlord exists so that they can confirm he's fully compliant with all his obligations is obviously also an option if you dont want to take his shafting lying down.