salary

dummy09

Hi,

Can I be so cheeky as to ask for a quick survey of what people are making in programming jobs?

I'm a programmer with about 3 years experience, and I earn 31K. I think this is kind of low for the work I do. But I don't know what any of my colleagues make (not comfortable asking!). An opportunity to push for a raise is coming up, and I'd like to get an idea of what I can realistically expect.

It's a small company and I have to be constantly learning new stuff, working overtime, travelling, plus loads of customer facing stuff, and a lot of responsibility, on multi million euro projects. What would you expect to earn in a job like that?

Thanks!

Bill-e

Ask for 36k at least. Your there 3 years! Your claws are well in. It would cost them a lot more in recruitment and training to bring someone in to replace you. Do it!

Sparks

It is not cheeky, it's a basic and important piece of information. A job ad without salary information is like a CV without a name on it.

There are several salary surveys:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/ForumWW/SalarySurvey.aspx?SalarySurveyID=618&BannorID=&BZoneID=0&ParentID=75&CID=16
http://www.recruitireland.com/careercentre/index.aspx?c=itpermanentsurvey
http://www.premier.ie/salary-survey

And anecdotal stories aplenty:
http://embeddedincork.net/2007/03/25/embedded-engineer-salary-survey/

And a recent boards.ie thread on this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055613614

(And were I you, with that sort of job description and three years on the job experience, I'd be expecting 50k as a minimum)

Webmonkey

Thats disgraceful pay. A recent graduate wouldn't be on much less than that. It took you years of experience to get to where you are now. You deserve to be rewarded for this. I would guess you should be anywhere above 45K at least but going by what you mentioned there, how you have such responsibility and dealing with customers, I'd nearly go much more

jon1981

this really f*cks me off! Programming is damn hard work and the reflecting wages are crap! the average salaries are decreasing year on year...its depressing.

Skud

im a grad and was speaking with recruitment agents recently. I said I expect 25-30 outside of dublin starting off and maybe a bit more than that in Dublin. They told me that I was realistic in what I expect.

Some ads recently are posting figures of 20 - 25k in the dublin area starting off. Which is crazy. If you have a good degree and good experience you should warrant a higher salary than you are on. Only problem is you are in a small company. If you push for a large salary increase now it work against you. Plus it depends on how profitable the company is currently.

ilikerashers

After moving back from the UK, wages here stink in Ireland for developers. Alot of companies must be getting good deals here.

Sparks

That, and noone teaches college grads that salaries aren't really assigned according to skill level except in fairly smart companies (who are in a tiny minority); but according to what programmers ask for and how badly stuck companies are, and other such factors which have sod all to do with the actual coding itself...

slogue

It definitely depends on what part of the country you are in e.g. Dublin Vs Cork Vs Donegal

In Donegal with 3 years experience 31K would be a pretty good wage
Generally graduates start on 25K-28K

qwytre

What county do you work in?

If it is Dublin then 31k after 3 years experience sounds low. But depends on how good you are, type of company etc etc

dummy09

It's in Dublin. Thanks for the help guys.

Actually the company has not been profitable for a while, but it's not as simple as that either. For instance, although they let some people go a while back, they've been hiring other people since, and they still are. So my attitude is that if they're not making a profit but are still investing money, they could invest a little more of it in me...:)

Although I work hard, I'd work harder if they paid me more, but I don't think they understand that!

yop

dummy09 wrote: »

It's in Dublin. Thanks for the help guys.

Actually the company has not been profitable for a while, but it's not as simple as that either. For instance, although they let some people go a while back, they've been hiring other people since, and they still are. So my attitude is that if they're not making a profit but are still investing money, they could invest a little more of it in me...:)

Although I work hard, I'd work harder if they paid me more, but I don't think they understand that!

Think thats the line you should concentrate on, you have a job, you are not on the dole.
BUT you are in Dublin and from what I can see the only jobs going are up there. Best thing to do is decide if you are not happy with what you are learning and earning then you send out your CV.

But if you are learning loads and think that you will progress and the company will then give it another year.

I doubt they will be able to give you more money.

techdiver

yop wrote: »

you have a job, you are not on the dole.

Why is this the same old line persisted by people at the moment. Ok, he has a job and is not on the dole, but does that mean he should not attempt to better his situation when he is clearly underpaid?

yop

techdiver wrote: »

Why is this the same old line persisted by people at the moment. Ok, he has a job and is not on the dole, but does that mean he should not attempt to better his situation when he is clearly underpaid?

The company has not been profitable, he seems to realize this, so his chances of getting more money are probably less.
As I also said was if he was not happy get the CV out there.

techdiver

yop wrote: »

The company has not been profitable, he seems to realize this, so his chances of getting more money are probably less.
As I also said was if he was not happy get the CV out there.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree about getting the CV out there, my only gripe is I'm sick hearing everyone saying - "Aren't you lucky to have a job", I'm just venting.:D

Civilian_Target

Push for more money. How much have you got in the way of raises since you start?
At what you're on, with 3 years of experience, even given the current outlook, you should be able to get 5%. It's not a lot, but it's better than nothing.

qwytre

I think you should look around for other jobs and see if you could get a better one with more pay. After 3 years you should be up towards the 40 mark. If this was 2 years ago I would say you should be up to 45 but salaries have dropped a bit.

What skills do you have in IT?

pauldiv

Tricky one.

It's interesting that your bosses are working on Multi Million Euro projects because if there is so much money involved then it suggests that they can afford a raise. If they think 31k is a fair wage for Dublin with 3 years experience then it would suggest that they are penny pinching

All that extra work you do is unpaid and while it valuable experience it sounds like you are being overworked and underpaid. Like the poster above said 45k would not be too much for someone doing all this work. Unemployment is around 13% and it might be hard to find a better paying position. You could try outside first and then see what it's really like out there in the market but It might be better to act more directly with your existing employer and push hard for a raise when the appraisal comes up

You sound like someone who is not pushy enough but sometimes you have to be. If you value your experience and abilities then you should start building your case now. You could add up all the unpaid overtime, travel and extra efforts put in over the past year and translate it into euros. Once you add that total to your current salary then it might be a better reflection on what you should be earning

I know that money is not everything especially if you enjoy the work you do and have good colleagues. if you like the place and want to stay then tell them that and explain that at this point in your career you need a clear signal that you have achieved something with your life. The best way they could do this is by rewarding you significantly, namely with a good pay raise. Money talks and they know this

What will they say when you produce a list comparing your salary against the average salary figures from the links provided above? If you have the evidence then it would be funny to hear them try to explain away the difference

In Donegal you can live on 31k for sure but in Dublin it doesn't make economic sense. All the jobs are there but for a nice flat to live in you are talking about 200 a week at the very least. That's almost half your take home pay and means that your wage is the biggest thing that affects your quality of life down there

Bon chance

DublinWriter

dummy09 wrote: »

It's a small company and I have to be constantly learning new stuff, working overtime, travelling, plus loads of customer facing stuff, and a lot of responsibility, on multi million euro projects. What would you expect to earn in a job like that?

Using salary levels alone as a benchmark for your progression in I.T. can be misleading, especially in the first five years of your career.

Generally, smaller firms pay less, but offer more in terms of experience and responsibility. Sure, you probably could up sticks and work for a multinational for a couple of K more, but you'd probably be driven batsh*t by the mundane nature of the work.

bigbadcon

You wont get anything unless you ask for it.

You should be looking at at least 40k nowadays (last year I would have said 45k)

It depends what you have 3 years experience in aswell..

Sparks

DublinWriter wrote: »

Using salary levels alone as a benchmark for your progression in I.T. can be misleading, especially in the first five years of your career.

Salary alone if you're just marking time, is a bad metric.
Salary, however, is a pretty good metric of how much the company values you. In fact, it's nearly the only such metric. And if you're breaking your back doing work that would cost them 2500 a day in contractor fees, and which is pulling in millions in revenue, and they're paying you well under the odds? Yeah, I'd be looking to jump, because if they value you that little, the next warning sign is being asked to train up the new graduate they just hired for even less money than you're on, and next thing you know, you're replaced with another cog.

And for every enlightened company and decent boss out there (and there are some, I've worked for a few), there's between ten and twenty shysters whose business model involves lovely practises like hiring new graduates, working them to the bone for just under a year and then firing them on a pretence to avoid the hassle of employees with any form of legal protection or permanency (and I've run into one or two of them as well, and avoided many more because this industry is nothing if not incestous - and that means if you go to the pub on a friday night every so often with your workmates, pretty soon you know someone who's worked, well, in almost any company you chose).

Bottom line is, we're professionals. We don't need hugs, and we don't necessarily need to be paid more than anyone else in the field, but we do (good) work for money. If that money's not forthcoming, then someone's not thinking of you as a professional, but as a mark. And that's not someplace you want to be.

bigbadcon

I moved jobs when I had just 3 years experience.

I was always telling my manager what money I could get elsewhere and they didnt listen until I handed in my notice. Then they mannaged to come up with a 10k rise out of nowhere.

I didnt take it and moved and it was the right decision.

A lot of employers are using this recession as an excuse to overwork and under pay you.

No harm in looking around.

techdiver

bigbadcon wrote: »

I was always telling my manager what money I could get elsewhere and they didnt listen until I handed in my notice. Then they mannaged to come up with a 10k rise out of nowhere.

This is very true. They have no money until they realise that you are going to leave and then manage to come up with the goods. If they were more pro-active in keeping their valuable employees happy it would cost them less in the long run. Unfortunately short sightedness is all too common especially in large companies I've seen.

qwytre

In the first 3-4 years of your career you might find the only way to get a decent increase is to move jobs. That was my experience anyways.

Like the above poster there was one stage back in 2004 when I got a 6% increase which I wasn't happy about (6% of a small amount). Got a job offer a good bit more and actually turned it down as the other place counter offered. Eventually did move for something higher again. Now that was a few years when we didn't have a recession.

But you might have to move to get a proper increase. I dont think I have ever seen someone get more than 15% increase in the same company doing the same role and that would be an exception. That would a 4.5k increase for you if you got it.

On the other hand I think you would find a job for up near the 40k mark (depending on the skills you have). That would be a 25-30% increase.

pauldiv

Quote - In the first 3-4 years of your career you might find the only way to get a decent increase is to move jobs. That was my experience anyways.

+1.

Same experience here. If you make the right moves early in your career then you get further financially by moving.