Lenihan the damned/savior?

Mario007

Reading many of the opinion pieces in the newspapers following the Board Snip report one clear thing emerged, most of our commentators believe right now the future of the country rests on lenihan's shoulders. With cowen doing his usual stunt of inaction, i suppose they are right. So what do you think will lenihan downplay the report and be the saviour of 'our most vulnerable' and damn the future years of the country, or will he largely implement it and point us to the road to recovery, damning himself in the eyes of the general public?

(i'd post a poll here, but i can't seem to find the magical button that would add the poll to my post, sorry)

brianthebard

That's assuming that implementing the reports recommendations leads to recovery?

You can't post a poll because they're not allowed in the politics forum.

irish_bob

Mario007 wrote: »

Reading many of the opinion pieces in the newspapers following the Board Snip report one clear thing emerged, most of our commentators believe right now the future of the country rests on lenihan's shoulders. With cowen doing his usual stunt of inaction, i suppose they are right. So what do you think will lenihan downplay the report and be the saviour of 'our most vulnerable' and damn the future years of the country, or will he largely implement it and point us to the road to recovery, damning himself in the eyes of the general public?

(i'd post a poll here, but i can't seem to find the magical button that would add the poll to my post, sorry)

i think lennehan has the guts to do what needs to be done , unfortunatley the utterly spineless cowen will shackle lennehan from making the really unpopular descisions mainly because of union pressure

FlutterinBantam

he will play a major part in the country's recovery.

A lot will depend on whether he has the balls to push this stuff through in what would appear to be concerted opposition.

In fairness I reckon he is as good as we have for the task.

Has to be obvious that harsh measures are needed.

rugbyman

I agree with you BOB, I think Brian Lenihan is probably Ok. he certainly comes out of this crisis, head up. Not a genius ,but sound
Rugbyman

mikemac

irish_bob wrote: »

i think lennehan has the guts to do what needs to be done , unfortunatley the utterly spineless cowen will shackle lennehan from making the really unpopular descisions mainly because of union pressure

I'd agree also.
Lenihan has a hard task and will face criticicm no matter what he does. For every action he'll take some will scream about hitting vunerable people and some will shout it doesn't go far enough.
As with most things, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

I reckon he can do a good job but is getting overruled by Cowen.
He'll do as good a job as the other 165 deputies anyway

FlutterinBantam

As long as some other spineless gimps don't try to undermine him to save their passage to the trough of plenty.

It's starting already.!!!

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

As long as some other spineless gimps don't try to undermine him to save their passage to the trough of plenty.

Could you expand on this?

Mario007

brianthebard wrote: »

That's assuming that implementing the reports recommendations leads to recovery?

You can't post a poll because they're not allowed in the politics forum.

well i was assuming that without implementing those recommendations we will still keep borrowing at this rate which would mean the country defaulting and the IMF or the ECB coming in...

i agree with the general opinion here, i think lenihan will have the balls to push those cuts through, hopefully he will be able to overrule cowen and some other ministers to force the cuts in. and also we'll have to see how the opposition is going to respond because FG seem to be supporting of the measures so far.

peasant

You all make this sound as if there were a choice.
There is a big, gaping hole in the public finances and it has to be plugged. It is the job of the finance minister do bloody well do so.
Seenashow the hole was opening in front of his eyes for about a year now, I fail to see how he is supposed to have done a "good job" so far as he's done very little other than fighting a raging fire by throwing thimblefulls of water at it. Changing to buckets now still won't change much.

tlev

Lenihan should have resigned when it he admitted hadn't read PWC report on the loans taken out by the Anglo Director. He is an incompetant minister and is way out of his depth. As is Cowan and many more in the government.

oncevotedff

Lenihan doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.

What he and the rest of the cabinet will do is pick and chose the cuts they want to implement. As a token offering they may disband the Dept of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs but form an innovative and brand new Department For Localities, Non-Urban and Irish Speaking Areas so that Baby Dev need not get the Snip.:D

Then, having shared the pain the government will proceed to shaft the old, the poor and the sick. In order to properly focus on these moochers they will adopt Labour's suggestion for the formation of a new Department For Hardship. Mary Harney will take over a junior ministry here with responsibility for national starvation. There will also be a Min of State with responsibility for stealing sweets from Children.

Mario007

peasant wrote: »

You all make this sound as if there were a choice.
There is a big, gaping hole in the public finances and it has to be plugged. It is the job of the finance minister do bloody well do so.
Seenashow the hole was opening in front of his eyes for about a year now, I fail to see how he is supposed to have done a "good job" so far as he's done very little other than fighting a raging fire by throwing thimblefulls of water at it. Changing to buckets now still won't change much.

he took out 9bn, i think, out of the economy since becoming a minister, otherwise our loan would be around 32bn...
i didnt like lenihan particulary at the start, especially after the october budget which was really all over the place to be honest, but this year i think he's one of the few ministers who know what they are doing and how bad the situation is. plus unlike cowen he doesnt seem to be too keen to appease the unions which is good in these times.
and you're right, he shouldnt have a choice, he should implement the whole report but we know most of the cabinet will be strongly against it

FlutterinBantam

brianthebard wrote: »

Could you expand on this?

Certainly.

Ireland Inc. is in the deepest shíte, right now.

everybody knows the 56 bn out 36 bn in equation.

However some gimps in power do not seem to have looked at reality, and seem to think that by watering down/delaying/ ignoring the evil day they might hold their job in charge of a country that is sinking down the plughole.


There is ONLY ONE SOLUTION implement the McCarthy report in full or run out of money.

In the name of God why do you want me to explain that to you Brian???

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Certainly.

Ireland Inc. is in the deepest shíte, right now.

everybody knows the 56 bn out 36 bn in equation.

However some gimps in power do not seem to have looked at reality, and seem to think that by watering down/delaying/ ignoring the evil day they might hold their job in charge of a country that is sinking down the plughole.


There is ONLY ONE SOLUTION implement the McCarthy report in full or run out of money.

In the name of God why do you want me to explain that to you Brian???

That's not really explaining anything. Who are these 'spineless gimps'? In what way are they trying to get at the 'trough of plenty'? What is the 'trough of plenty'? Why do you believe that the MCarthy report should be implemented in full?

In the name of God flut, why can't you just answer a question with some proper reasoned arguments instead of random insults at non specific people and pointless rhetoric?

Taxipete29

Apparently there have been some rumours circulating that some ministers are gearing up to discredit McCarthy and his report.

ynotdu

there are many items inserted in the report that the govt(i believe deliberatly inserted by the board)that will cost very little for the govt to reject,help to make the public perception seem as if Dec budget will be "not as bad as i expected"

peasant

Mario007 wrote: »

... this year i think he's one of the few ministers who know what they are doing and how bad the situation is.

Let's re-phrase that a bit closer to the truth:
In comparison with our tea-shock he is indeed showing signs of life ..he's breathing and has a pulse for starters
In comparison with the tanaiste he does indeed seem to have more than two brain cells to rub together
In comparison with the rest of the cabinet he shines by not having a silly tache, he isn't overweight and has no ridiculous accent and when he speaks he is actually coherent most of the time.

So yes, he's a shining beacon ...in comparison.

But I'm sorry ..he doesn't know what he's doing either. If he knew, he should have done it long ago and not dither and wiggle and hope for some miraculous world-wide recovery that will carry Ireland in its wake ...which clearly aint happening.

deadhead13

NAMA is a long way from being up and running. How much will it pay for the assets? Will Brian Lenihan try to save FF or the economy in the december budget? The backbenchers are getting restless by all accounts. Will the coalition survive that budget? It is too early to say whether Lenihan is the damned our the saviour.

FlutterinBantam

brianthebard wrote: »

That's not really explaining anything. Who are these 'spineless gimps'? In what way are they trying to get at the 'trough of plenty'? What is the 'trough of plenty'? Why do you believe that the MCarthy report should be implemented in full?

In the name of God flut, why can't you just answer a question with some proper reasoned arguments instead of random insults at non specific people and pointless rhetoric?

Have you not been listening to radio?

have you not been reading the papers?

All i'm hearing is vested interests like Unions, politicians (Eamon O Cuiv) quangos, and the Public Service bleating about how everyone needs to be cut EXCEPT THEMSELVES.

Now we have Coughlan conducting an evaluation into the inquiry by a body which the enquiry said should be axed!!!!

If that's not obfuscation and delaying tactics Brian I don't know what is.

This report should be acted on immediately Brian, 56 out 36 in with the taxpayer maxed out!!!

Don't understand your attitude to this Brian, the time for rhetoric and bulldust is long gone.

Act, in the name of God!!!

Time is running out.

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Have you not been listening to radio?

have you not been reading the papers?

All i'm hearing is vested interests like Unions, politicians (Eamon O Cuiv) quangos, and the Public Service bleating about how everyone needs to be cut EXCEPT THEMSELVES.

Now we have Coughlan conducting an evaluation into the inquiry by a body which the enquiry said should be axed!!!!

If that's not obfuscation and delaying tactics Brian I don't know what is.

This report should be acted on immediately Brian, 56 out 36 in with the taxpayer maxed out!!!

Don't understand your attitude to this Brian, the time for rhetoric and bulldust is long gone.

Act, in the name of God!!!

Time is running out.

Oh I see, so you're repeating what the papers say. Do you really think the tanaiste is a spineless gimp trying to get at the trough of power? As the tanaiste she's already there, do you think for some reason she's going to cause a coup over this? Likewise O Cuiv is a minister. Is he a spineless gimp making a power grab? Unlikely. So your first statement doesn't really hold up.

Secondly why must the report be used in full, you haven't answered that. Going by the near hysterical tone of your power I doubt you really know the answer to that question, other than the papers told you so. If the time for rhetoric and bulldust is gone then perhaps you should consider cutting them from your posts. The first cut is the deepest.

Riskymove

brianthebard wrote: »

Secondly why must the report be used in full, you haven't answered that. Going by the near hysterical tone of your power I doubt you really know the answer to that question, other than the papers told you so. If the time for rhetoric and bulldust is gone then perhaps you should consider cutting them from your posts. The first cut is the deepest.

even mcCarthy does not expect all the cuts to be implemented...and its natural for those lined up for cuts to try and avoid them, although i notice he left out anyone from outside public sector for criticism (e.g. farmers)

I think it obvious that the report would go beyond whats expected (e.g. a 5% cut in SW) so that when lesser cuts are implemented (e.g. 3% in SW) people will be less resisitant

brianthebard

Riskymove wrote: »

even mcCarthy does not expect all the cuts to be implemented...and its natural for those lined up for cuts to try and avoid them, although i notice he left out anyone from outside public sector for criticism (e.g. farmers)

I think it obvious that the report would go beyond whats expected (e.g. a 5% cut in SW) so that when lesser cuts are implemented (e.g. 3% in SW) people will be less resisitant

I don't see what farmers have to do with the current issue? But apart from that yes you're right, so that's why I want to know why flut thinks the report should be implemented in full, he's quite adamant about that. He clearly believes that cutting 17,000 jobs, sending these people to the dole queues, and taking the money they would have spent from their wages out of the economy, is a good thing. Yet after being asked twice he still hasn't told me why.

ragg

Lenehin is doing ok - he got handed the worst position possible & he is really suffering a lack of competent leadership.

Cowen, is more interested in buttering us up then just coming out straight with the situation! Remember the will there wont there, about the emergency budget? Cowens incompetent attempts at playing politics were painful to watch. To my mind they showed the measure of the man. More interested in softening us up, then actually coming out straight!! The man is hideous in every sense of the word.

With regards to the McCarthy report- I don't know if it will be in lenehins hands. Like it or not NAMA is the option we have plumped for, everyone is waiting for it to be set up, before making any kind of moves - I don't see the government surving much longer after it has been set up.

Riskymove

brianthebard wrote: »

I don't see what farmers have to do with the current issue? But apart from that yes you're right, so that's why I want to know why flut thinks the report should be implemented in full, he's quite adamant about that. He clearly believes that cutting 17,000 jobs, sending these people to the dole queues, and taking the money they would have spent from their wages out of the economy, is a good thing. Yet after being asked twice he still hasn't told me why.

I mentioned farmers as an example of a group outside public sector which are also trying to avoid cuts, thats all, it is not only public sector thats doing that

i should point out that there is no intention to sack/make redundant 17,000 public sector workers, its a phasing out of posts over time through "natural wastage"

brianthebard

Riskymove wrote: »

I mentioned farmers as an example of a group outside public sector which are also trying to avoid cuts, thats all, it is not only public sector thats doing that

i should point out that there is no intention to sack/make redundant 17,000 public sector workers, its a phasing out of posts over time through "natural wastage"

report wrote:

On this basis, the Group is putting forward proposals for initial reductions in public service
numbers of over 17,300 (inclusive of reductions of around 6,000 in the Health sector under the
Employment Control Framework introduced in 2008). Initial reductions on this scale are the
minimum that must be achieved.

That doesn't suggest phasing out to me.

FlutterinBantam

brianthebard wrote: »

Oh I see, so you're repeating what the papers say. Do you really think the tanaiste is a spineless gimp trying to get at the trough of power? As the tanaiste she's already there, do you think for some reason she's going to cause a coup over this? Likewise O Cuiv is a minister. Is he a spineless gimp making a power grab? Unlikely. So your first statement doesn't really hold up.

Secondly why must the report be used in full, you haven't answered that. Going by the near hysterical tone of your power I doubt you really know the answer to that question, other than the papers told you so. If the time for rhetoric and bulldust is gone then perhaps you should consider cutting them from your posts. The first cut is the deepest.

What planet are you on Brian?

These people are IN power and trying to HOLD ON TO POWER irrespective of the obvious need to take immediate corrective action.

The time for talking is LONG GONE1.. It's ACTION time now Brian.

You strike me as one of those arrogant politicos who try to blind people with statistics, and bulldust,when the average John Q Taxpayer knows corrective action needed and needed urgently.

Lenihan at least, seems fairly convinced of the need to take action, but others in power Brian, seem to think we can go on waffling till the kyne come home.


please don't take people for idiots Brian.

Riskymove

brianthebard wrote: »

That doesn't suggest phasing out to me.

nevertheless that's how it works

the general moratorium has resulted in contract staff not having contract renewed and becoming unemployed but as far as fulltime public sector posts the approach is generally through non-filling of vacanices over time

redundancies for 17,000 would cost so much as to make little sense in the short term

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What planet are you on Brian?

One where I expect a real answer when I ask a question.

These people are IN power and trying to HOLD ON TO POWER irrespective of the obvious need to take immediate corrective action.

The time for talking is LONG GONE1.. It's ACTION time now Brian.

EXCLAMATION AND CAPITAL LETTERS!!!! you did say that rhetoric has no place here, so why continue with it instead of using some facts to create an argument for your position?

You strike me as one of those arrogant politicos who try to blind people with statistics, and bulldust,when the average John Q Taxpayer knows corrective action needed and needed urgently.

Lenihan at least, seems fairly convinced of the need to take action, but others in power Brian, seem to think we can go on waffling till the kyne come home.


please don't take people for idiots Brian.

I'm not an arrogant politico, thanks. If you can't even tell me what corrective actions are needed or why they all must be implemented then I'm sorry if you feel slighted but I can't take you very seriously. Honestly to claim that someone's being arrogant simply by asking you why the whole report needs to be implemented is cringeworthy. This isn't After hours flut, arguments will need to be backed up with some sort of factual evidence. Lenihan may be convinced that ACTION is needed (is that age action you're yelling about?) but I don't think he's said yet that all recommendations need to be implemented, so why do you feel that way? Please refrain from the personal remarks flut.

Its like this flut, fancy nicknames for the taxpayer works for David McWilliams and others, but only when they back up their rhetoric with something more substantial, which so far you have failed to do, and instead resorted to name calling when questioned about your position.

FlutterinBantam

Now I'm well aware this isn't after hours, and after having received a warning I'm not going to rise to that bait.

Point one: Country is in dire financial condition.

Point two: Taxpayer is unable to bridge the gap which will set us on the road to recovery.

Point three: Only option therefore is to cut public spending to bridge that gap.

Point four. Govt. commissioned Colm Mccarthy to produce a report which would identify savings which would try to bridge that gap

Point five: This report has now been produced and handed over to Govt.

Point 6: they should go ahead and implement it, as otherwise, in my opinion, we will end up bankrupt.


END.

Riskymove

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Now I'm well aware this isn't after hours, and after having received a warning I'm not going to rise to that bait.

Point one: Country is in dire financial condition.

Point two: Taxpayer is unable to bridge the gap which will set us on the road to recovery.

Point three: Only option therefore is to cut public spending to bridge that gap.

Point four. Govt. commissioned Colm Mccarthy to produce a report which would identify savings which would try to bridge that gap

Point five: This report has now been produced and handed over to Govt.

Point 6: they should go ahead and implement it, as otherwise, in my opinion, we will end up bankrupt.


END.

point one: even the authors did not envisage all cuts being implemented, they are options

point two: these authors are not all-seeing, all-knowing; you don't have to agree blindly with every finding; there may be valid reasons for not doing somethings; they are only looking at it from economic viewpoint

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Now I'm well aware this isn't after hours, and after having received a warning I'm not going to rise to that bait.

Point one: Country is in dire financial condition.

Point two: Taxpayer is unable to bridge the gap which will set us on the road to recovery.

Point three: Only option therefore is to cut public spending to bridge that gap.

Point four. Govt. commissioned Colm Mccarthy to produce a report which would identify savings which would try to bridge that gap

Point five: This report has now been produced and handed over to Govt.

Point 6: they should go ahead and implement it, as otherwise, in my opinion, we will end up bankrupt.


END.

There was no bait. Now while you've repeated yourself in a nicer fashion, you have only repeated yourself, not added anything new. And you've ignored the question again, which is Why must the report be implemented in full? Its underlined for emphasis.

FlutterinBantam

See point 6

FlutterinBantam

Riskymove wrote: »

point one: even the authors did not envisage all cuts being implemented, they are options

point two: these authors are not all-seeing, all-knowing; you don't have to agree blindly with every finding; there may be valid reasons for not doing somethings; they are only looking at it from economic viewpoint

I am well aware of that.

There are valid reasons not doing things indeed, like holding on to power at the next election.That's a valid reason,even though in economic terms it may be a tad disasterous:cool:

Riskymove

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

See point 6

so you think that ALL of the proposals must be implemented or else we'll be bankrupt....fine you are entitiled to your view

FlutterinBantam

Thank you.

Otherwise all we have is a slugfest of vested interests each fighting to maintain their position at the trough of plenty,where the strong prevail and the weak suffer.

Govt. paid for the report, Govt. got the report, go on and do the right thing-implement it.

amacca

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Thank you.

Otherwise all we have is a slugfest of vested interests each fighting to maintain their position at the trough of plenty,where the strong prevail and the weak suffer.

Govt. paid for the report, Govt. got the report, go on and do the right thing-implement it.

Implement all?

Wasn't the report supposed to be a menu? or was that just a placatory modification of the truth of the matter?

If it was supposed to be a menu, what restaurant would you go into and order everything from the menu despite the establishments reputation for culinary excellence.

Do you think every single last thing in the report will be implemented. The report identified areas where the government can make savings and I suppose I agree they should make savings but even the report itself has a disclaimer of sorts.....something to the effect that if you make savings in this area and in this fashion it may actually end up costing you more in the near future and Im not talking about social cost im talking actual moolah here.

I'm fairly certain they wont implement every single thing in the report exactly as it is laid down and Im fairly sure that this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Surely you must agree that a bit of informed debate would be a good thing?

FlutterinBantam

amacca wrote: »

Implement all?

Wasn't the report supposed to be a menu? or was that just a placatory modification of the truth of the matter?

If it was supposed to be a menu, what restaurant would you go into and order everything from the menu despite the establishments reputation for culinary excellence.

Do you think every single last thing in the report will be implemented. The report identified areas where the government can make savings and I suppose I agree they should make savings but even the report itself has a disclaimer of sorts.....something to the effect that if you make savings in this area and in this fashion it may actually end up costing you more in the near future and Im not talking about social cost im talking actual moolah here.

I'm fairly certain they wont implement every single thing in the report exactly as it is laid down and Im fairly sure that this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Surely you must agree that a bit of informed debate would be a good thing?

Look, of course not every single iota, but broadly speaking , i say again,broadly speaking, they paid the guy to produce the report, they should implement it .

The only reason for not taking action is political.

There is a head to head between Lenihan and George Lee up in Donegal this week, I can bet they won't agree on everything.

They probably won't agree on anything!!

That's politics.

Economics is a totally different discipline.

peasant

Riskymove wrote: »

so you think that ALL of the proposals must be implemented or else we'll be bankrupt....fine you are entitiled to your view

Emmm ...

Diameter of hole to be plugged = 20 billion

Diameter of proposed McCarthy plug = 5 billion



Any further questions?

brianthebard

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Look, of course not every single iota, but broadly speaking , i say again,broadly speaking, they paid the guy to produce the report, they should implement it .

You were quite clear earlier that the whole report should be implemented in full. Are you changing your mind now?

FlutterinBantam

Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realise that not every single iota of the report needs to be implemented.

It does need to be implemented in the broad sense, not degenerated into a PR war amongst the many vested interests.

action is what is needed now, not flowery speches by well supported groups as to their reasons for not taking a hit.

We elected politicians to run the country-go ahead and run it.

pot shot

i agree they run the trade unions as well o conor shud beshot

FlutterinBantam

I see total conflict in that statement.

FlutterinBantam

You see at the end of the day it's all about vested interests protecting their own patch.

All these vested interests will have no problem putting forward their point of view and how they are integral in the smooth running of local govt.

there are guys and gals out there who could "talk for Ireland" about their utter necessity in the smooth running of the country.

Now is not the time for that,in my opinion.

Time is for leadership and decision making, a quality sadly lacking in all our political masters and handlers!!!

Riskymove

peasant wrote: »

Emmm ...

Diameter of hole to be plugged = 20 billion

Diameter of proposed McCarthy plug = 5 billion



Any further questions?

very simplistic there, the McCarthy report is on cuts in Government expenditure (excluding pay), it was never intended to fill the gap completely

I don't believe we should should just get rid of everything suggested on economic grounds alone

irish_bob

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You see at the end of the day it's all about vested interests protecting their own patch.

All these vested interests will have no problem putting forward their point of view and how they are integral in the smooth running of local govt.

there are guys and gals out there who could "talk for Ireland" about their utter necessity in the smooth running of the country.

Now is not the time for that,in my opinion.

Time is for leadership and decision making, a quality sadly lacking in all our political masters and handlers!!!

indeed , the unions would have us believe that cuts in public service number mean a sick child will not get the proper care it needs when in reality the cuts propose are meant to focus on surplus to requirement pen pushers of which thier are thousands , the unions spin and lies must not go unchallenged , im talking to you RTE

FlutterinBantam

You already have the teachers playing the education card.

If they are so concerned about the children, take a pay cut.

But no,oh no, they are sacrosanct and vital to the future well being of the state, let some others take the cuts.

They are in virtually unsackable positions, have huge holidays good pensions, and they won't give an inch.

What part of crisis don't they understand I sometimes wonder.

irish_bob

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You already have the teachers playing the education card.

If they are so concerned about the children, take a pay cut.

But no,oh no, they are sacrosanct and vital to the future well being of the state, let some others take the cuts.

They are in virtually unsackable positions, have huge holidays good pensions, and they won't give an inch.

What part of crisis don't they understand I sometimes wonder.

i personally am prepared to take part in counter marches to what the unions may have planned , i didnt tick a box which had that power monger jack o connors name in it at any election , i wont see my country dragged down because of demagogues like him