Recommendations of .22 gallery rifle

kkelly77

As the title says, looking for opinions on a .22 gallery rifle. Budget is cheap and cheerful

Thanks,
K

demonloop

I've only ever heard praise for CZ rimfire rifles, and they can be picked up cheaply enough.

kkelly77

demonloop wrote: »

I've only ever heard praise for CZ rimfire rifles, and they can be picked up cheaply enough.

Needs to be a lever action rifle

Jonty

I thought you could use a semi auto ruger 1022??

Bananaman

I saw a buckmark kicking ruger ass at the recent fermoy international in .22 gallery rifle.

B'Man

rrpc

I've shot both the Ruger and the Buckmark. The Ruger is not accurate at all, will hit the target alright, but you're not going to know where from shot to shot. The rotary magazines are impossible to clean, so if you drop one in a puddle you may leave it there :eek:

The Buckmark looks like a gimmick, but is surprisingly accurate and will group nice and tightly even after a number of shots. However it has the most horrible trigger known to man; being excessively curved and very tight to the back of the guard. The linkage to the seer is gritty as hell and there are times when it justs locks up and you could be pulling till the cows come home before it will fire. I had lovely dents in my finger after firing a few shots with it.

There are not many options when it comes to semis. Anschütz do a semi called the 525, but I've not seen any and have no idea what it's like. Knowing Anschütz it should be pretty good, but it will no doubt be expensive. It's got a light enough barrel, so it will probably suffer from overheating if you put a lot of rounds through it quickly (which you do with gallery rifle).

Another option is to go for a Biathlon rifle. These are the rifles they use in the skiing/shooting biathlons that you sometimes see on Eurosport. The rifles are marginally heavier than standard semis and are a straight-pull action which would be almost as fast as a semi. Most importantly is that they come with match barrels and match triggers as well as storage for four mags on the side and are configured for standing shooting.



Might be just the trick.

The barrels and actions are tested to -20 degrees celsius, so you don't have to worry about the cold

They are expensive though: A new Anschütz Fortner will cost just over €2,000

Lemon3

The basic Ruger 10/22 might be a bit of a dog, but you won't see too many of these in a Gallery Rifle competition. Most of the guns i see are highly modified, with every possible Ruger part replaced with an up-market version, match barrels, match triggers and custom stocks, in fact, some guns i've seen have no Ruger parts at all.
The result is a much more accurate rifle, easily capable of sub 1/2 groups at 50m on a bench and as the max distance shot in Gallery is 50m, these guns can easily hit the massive bull in the right hands. The 10/22 is a good start if you are interested in Gallery Rifle, as you can upgrade as you progress.
As for cleaning magazines, there's a video here that shows how easy it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek4_iFVoKdo

rrpc

Lemon3 wrote: »

The basic Ruger 10/22 might be a bit of a dog, but you won't see too many of these in a Gallery Rifle competition. Most of the guns i see are highly modified, with every possible Ruger part replaced with an up-market version, match barrels, match triggers and custom stocks, in fact, some guns i've seen have no Ruger parts at all.
The result is a much more accurate rifle, easily capable of sub 1/2 groups at 50m on a bench and as the max distance shot in Gallery is 50m, these guns can easily hit the massive bull in the right hands. The 10/22 is a good start if you are interested in Gallery Rifle, as you can upgrade as you progress.
As for cleaning magazines, there's a video here that shows how easy it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek4_iFVoKdo

It was a very heavily modified 10/22 I was using. Reckoned to be over two grands worth.

Shot at 25 yards indoor at the NSRA 25 yard target. Now that's considerably smaller than the gallery rifle target, but it's the same target I shot the Buckmark at. Both were bench rested.

At the kind of money that people are spending on 10/22's, I'd heartily recommend a Biathlon rifle. No further customisation needed and will cost the same money.

Lemon3

rrpc wrote: »

It was a very heavily modified 10/22 I was using. Reckoned to be over two grands worth.

Shot at 25 yards indoor at the NSRA 25 yard target. Now that's considerably smaller than the gallery rifle target, but it's the same target I shot the Buckmark at. Both were bench rested.

At the kind of money that people are spending on 10/22's, I'd heartily recommend a Biathlon rifle. No further customisation needed and will cost the same money.

If there was any chance that the above Anschutz offered an advantage over a 10/22 for gallery rifle then we would see loads of them in competition. I've only seen one Buckmark, so for most, the Ruger is the way to go. Two grand is a lot for a 10/22, it must have had some serious scope on it.

rrpc

Lemon3 wrote: »

If there was any chance that the above Anschutz offered an advantage over a 10/22 for gallery rifle then we would see loads of them in competition. I've only seen one Buckmark, so for most, the Ruger is the way to go. Two grand is a lot for a 10/22, it must have had some serious scope on it.

I don't think anyone would have considered the Biathlon rifle for Gallery; it's a bit outside the box and not very obvious. Add to that the total lack of Biathlon shooting here (we never get enough snow ) and you've no chance of even seeing one to consider it as a possibility.

The money spent on the Ruger I'm talking about didn't all go into the scope. Pretty much everything was customised.

MgGill

Hmmm - some of the advice in this thread is a little off the mark. (an Anschütz Biathalon rifle - come on!!!)

For a .22 GR a Ruger 10/22 is perfectly adequate for any of the disciplines shot. Its neither inaccurate, unreliable or expensive.

With 300 - 400 euros and you can easily be shooting GR comps with a standard 10/22 with a decent trigger and scope and be competitive. I know X class shooters who do so with nothing more than a slightly modified 10/22 ,a cheap scope and basic ammo.

As mentioned the discipline is essentially based on pistol so the "bulls" are relatively large.

As a regular GR shooter with a 10/22 I'd be interested in what anyone thinks the upgrade path is. Personally I don't think there is one - anything else is a sidestep. Nothing else suits the discipline. The Buckmarks mentioned are not comparative and cannot hold their own against a decent 10/22.

The Buckmark model is being converted to LBP and seems to be gaining ground in GR&P but in this guise does not compete in the same field - GRSB and LBP are not shot in the same competitions.

Sparks

MgGill wrote: »

For a .22 GR a Ruger 10/22 is perfectly adequate for any of the disciplines shot. Its neither inaccurate, unreliable or expensive.

Oh come on.
Look, I'll agree a stock 10/22 is cheap as chips.
I'll agree it's reliable enough.
But accurate? Get past ten yards with the thing and you might as well use a shotgun.

rrpc

Gallery Rifle goes out to 50m and at that distance, even with a big target, you need a reasonably good tool to do the job.

I'll repeat what I said about the Buckmark. At 25 yards on the NSRA target (that's the one with a 12.92mm 10 ring - outward gauging) benchrested, indoors, it was better than the 10/22's I've tried on the same target.

I hated the trigger, but couldn't fault the accuracy.

MgGill

Sparks wrote: »

Oh come on.
But accurate? Get past ten yards with the thing and you might as well use a shotgun.

Its perfectly accurate. With appropriate ammunition and benched it will run a single ragged hole at 25M and at 50M will turn in 2-3cm groups. This is easily accurate enough for any GR discipline.

Moving from the standard to the heavier target barrels, standard Ruger or one of the more expensive custom carbon ones will improve on this even more.

We all know its not a 3P rifle - and its not supposed to be. But its capable of cleaning any GR discipline around. The rifle is fine and is highly recommended for anyone wanting to take up small bore GR shooting.

MgGill

rrpc wrote: »

I'll repeat what I said about the Buckmark. At 25 yards on the NSRA target (that's the one with a 12.92mm 10 ring - outward gauging) benchrested, indoors, it was better than the 10/22's I've tried on the same target.

The Buckmark rifle is a good basis for GR. Its been used for the LBP which is gaining popularity on the circuit now. I've seen LPB shooters come within less than half a dozen points of cleaning a full 1500 course of fire.

This is pistol of course so the inherent accuracy of the piece is proven I agree. I'm not a fan of it in rifle but each to his own.

Triggers etc are easilly solved as well - the Kid Trigger in the Ruger is hightly recommended..

Lemon3

There's a thread on rimfirecentral, 60 pages long, dedicated to sub 1/4 inch groups at 25 and 50 yards with 10/22's. Obviously these guns are modified but it shows what can be done. I haven't shot mine off a bench much, but when zeroing at 50m, a 1/2 inch group is the norm.

Sparks

MgGill wrote: »

Its perfectly accurate. With appropriate ammunition and benched it will run a single ragged hole at 25M and at 50M will turn in 2-3cm groups.

Appropriate ammunition? I've shot a stock 10/22 at 45m benchrested with Eley Match ammunition and it holds groups of about 8 to 10 inches. I don't know where you're getting 2-3cm groups from unless your ammunition has a camera in the front, fins at the back and a computer in the middle...

It wasn't me!

I've been intensely unimpressed with the 10/22s I've shot. Even the upmarket triggers are unspectacular and I couldn't get a fully tricked out one to print tighter than an inch and a half at 25m, which was as well as three other shooters who tried it could manage, and a damn sight better than its owner was managing. Frankly, I think rrpc's suggestion of the biathlon rifle is excellent, and disparaging it in favour of a rifle that a lot of us have found to be tat is not going to be easily to stand up for.

MgGill

Sparks wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting 2-3cm groups from unless your ammunition has a camera in the front, fins at the back and a computer in the middle...

Where - by putting it in my shoulder, aiming at the target and pulling he trigger.

The 10 ring in a 1500 target is about 5 cm - how do you think the top shooters are pulling scores of 1490-1495 with 10/22 variants if the things can't group 2-3cm on the bench?

I've seen people clean the 50m stage of a 1500 many times - 24 shots kneeling, sitting, left and right handed standing - they are holding a 5cm group to do this which is the best I'd expect from a rifle of this sort.

Sounds like whatever 10/22s you guys have got are broken in some way. :-(

Jonty

rrpc wrote: »

I've shot both the Ruger and the Buckmark. The Ruger is not accurate at all, will hit the target alright, but you're not going to know where from shot to shot. The rotary magazines are impossible to clean, so if you drop one in a puddle you may leave it there :eek:

The Buckmark looks like a gimmick, but is surprisingly accurate and will group nice and tightly even after a number of shots. However it has the most horrible trigger known to man; being excessively curved and very tight to the back of the guard. The linkage to the seer is gritty as hell and there are times when it justs locks up and you could be pulling till the cows come home before it will fire. I had lovely dents in my finger after firing a few shots with it.

There are not many options when it comes to semis. Anschütz do a semi called the 525, but I've not seen any and have no idea what it's like. Knowing Anschütz it should be pretty good, but it will no doubt be expensive. It's got a light enough barrel, so it will probably suffer from overheating if you put a lot of rounds through it quickly (which you do with gallery rifle).

Another option is to go for a Biathlon rifle. These are the rifles they use in the skiing/shooting biathlons that you sometimes see on Eurosport. The rifles are marginally heavier than standard semis and are a straight-pull action which would be almost as fast as a semi. Most importantly is that they come with match barrels and match triggers as well as storage for four mags on the side and are configured for standing shooting.



Might be just the trick.

The barrels and actions are tested to -20 degrees celsius, so you don't have to worry about the cold

They are expensive though: A new Anschütz Fortner will cost just over €2,000

The anschutz semi is only badged anschutz. They can't take much hacking.

milkerman

As a former 10/22 owner I can confirm these guns are reliable at least. The mags can be cleaned out but this is best done at home. The gun is available in a huge range of variants - mine was a basic model. It would cycle subsonics all day without a proplem. The only ammo I had a problem with was Eley EPS. With a scope and lapua clubs it grouped 50-60mm at 50m.
THe trigger is AWFUL on a Ruger but a good clean up & polish can help matters a lot. All in all though it was good value at 380 euro odd and I got back most of my cash when I sold it. There are loads of second hand guns about and mags also.
A biathalon type rifle sounds cool - but in all the years I've rooted around gunshops I havent seen one on the shelf. I also know a bloke that has an Anschutz target type rifle that cost him an arm & leg but cant sell because it is so specialised and appeals to a small market.
So OP, my advice is buy a CLEAN s/hand RUger basic model for about 250 euro & 3 mags for about 50-60 euro in all. A cheap & cheerful fixed 4x32 scope will be good enough to start with.
I wouldnt use a lever action- Do you really want a tubular mag like that?
The Anschutz semi has a REALLY bad track record with serious failures in the receiver area - and Anscutz just badge them from an Italian maker.

rrpc

milkerman wrote: »

A biathalon type rifle sounds cool - but in all the years I've rooted around gunshops I havent seen one on the shelf. I also know a bloke that has an Anschutz target type rifle that cost him an arm & leg but cant sell because it is so specialised and appeals to a small market.

PM me on the target rifle, I might have someone interested.

You won't see a biathlon rifle on the shelf anywhere here. It's a shame really because I think they could work out very well as a substitute for semis which by and large never seem to get above mediocre out of the box.

milkerman

rrpc wrote: »

PM me on the target rifle, I might have someone interested.

Done

rrpc

Jonty wrote: »

The anschutz semi is only badged anschutz. They can't take much hacking.

Funny, looking at the picture on the Anschütz website, I wasn't particularly impressed. It looked quite cheap with a very agricultural looking breech design.

Sparks

MgGill wrote: »

Where - by putting it in my shoulder, aiming at the target and pulling he trigger.

Yeah, I have done that once or twice. I'm just telling you, the brand new Ruger 10/22 I was firing wouldn't group smaller than 8" at 40m from a rest. I ran two boxes of Eley through it trying to get it to. They're just not all that, that's all there is to it.

The 10 ring in a 1500 target is about 5 cm - how do you think the top shooters are pulling scores of 1490-1495 with 10/22 variants if the things can't group 2-3cm on the bench?

The top shooters aren't shooting with 300 quid's worth of stock rifle, that's how. Yes, you can make a 10/22 reasonably accurate. I have no doubt of that. I bet you could even hold a 2cm group at 50m with one.... after you've dropped the remainder of two grand into rebarrelling, retriggering, restocking, reactioning and repainting it and slapping a few hundred quid of glass on top. But face it - by that point, you don't have a Ruger 10/22 anymore. You've got a custom-made rifle.

I'm not saying the 10/22 has no uses. I'm not even saying that it's not a good beginner's rifle (for Gallery) - I'm just saying I wouldn't buy one if I could group better than 8" at 50m, and most people shooting were able to do that after four or five boxes of ammo.

Personally, if I was to buy a "fun gun" for this sort of thing, I'd try for that new Baikal MP-161K; and if I wanted a competitive gun, I'd either go with the biathlon idea or find myself a rifle used for the NSRA skirmisher match (~2" target at 25yds, 47 hits in 60 seconds is the record with a bolt-action rifle).

Jonty

If Our Lord Dermot Aherne sees that video he'll have a serious chip on his shoulder about .22 bolt action fully auto assault evil black rifles.

Is Gallery shooting along the lines of practical rifle?? I don't know

rrpc

Jonty wrote: »

If Our Lord Dermot Aherne sees that video he'll have a serious chip on his shoulder about .22 bolt action fully auto assault evil black rifles.

Except that it was a martini action BSA International approximately 50 years old

Is Gallery shooting along the lines of practical rifle?? I don't know

No it most certainly isn't. Gallery rifle is shot from a fixed firing line at a fixed target line. It's broken down into different distances, but each distance is shot seperately.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Except that it was a martini action BSA International approximately 50 years old

For the 47 hits/60 seconds record? I'm pretty sure that was a custom rifle setup being run by David Parish for that record, bolt-action not martini. Mind you, the Martinis clean up nicely in skirmisher matchs and tend to wind up winning a lot. Just because FWB don't make one in an aluminium stock, some folks seem to think they're no good anymore Truth is, they've got a shorter lock time than some bolt actions (I'd bet a tenner on their lock time being shorter than that of a bleiker) and commercial pressures have a lot to do with why you don't see them on the world cup line anymore. In fact, if you can pick up a BSA international on the cheap and it's in good condition, you've got yourself a very very good beginner's rifle right there.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

For the 47 hits/60 seconds record? I'm pretty sure that was a custom rifle setup being run by David Parish for that record, bolt-action not martini. Mind you, the Martinis clean up nicely in skirmisher matchs and tend to wind up winning a lot. Just because FWB don't make one in an aluminium stock, some folks seem to think they're no good anymore Truth is, they've got a shorter lock time than some bolt actions (I'd bet a tenner on their lock time being shorter than that of a bleiker) and commercial pressures have a lot to do with why you don't see them on the world cup line anymore. In fact, if you can pick up a BSA international on the cheap and it's in good condition, you've got yourself a very very good beginner's rifle right there.

I believe John Pugsley made the final of the British nationals last year with 593, shooting a 1960's BSA Martini. They shoot.

rrpc

Here's another option that I had forgotten about. It's a little like the Buckmark rifle, but has the added benefit of giving you a target pistol as well.



This kit goes with the Walther GSP Expert (below) and converts it into a semi-auto rifle.



This is the description from the Walther website.

More than 250,000 GSP have been sold worldwide over the last 25 years. In order to offer the target shooter more variety, Walther developed this conversion unit carbine. Thanks to a 465-mm-long, fluted stainless steel barrel with magna-port bores, match-quality hits are possible at distances up to 50 m. The set, supplied in a plastic gun case, also includes a laminated wood stock, a rear sight and all the necessary accessories.Optional available is an adjustable cheek piece and a Weaver scope base.

■ Easy and quick conversion
■ Precise performance up to 50 m distance
■ Also for the discipline "50 m semi-automatic rifle"

A snip at €833 on top of the cost of your GSP Expert. But it is two for the price of one.

kkelly77

Have you got a link for this on their website? Can't seem to find it.

K

Sparks

it is two for the price of one

Well, two for the price of two technically, since you have to buy the GSP seperately and both will need their own licences, technically speaking

rrpc

kkelly77 wrote: »

Have you got a link for this on their website? Can't seem to find it.

K

This link brings you to their target pistols page which includes the carbine conversion kit.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, two for the price of two technically, since you have to buy the GSP seperately and both will need their own licences, technically speaking

Well pedantically speaking it's still one because you can't possibly use both at the same time.

Sparks

It's one of those interesting edge cases - it's a component part, so it needs a licence, so it must have an identifying mark on it (or you can't get the licence); which means it'll have to be a seperate licence from your existing one for the GSP...

Bleh. I'd rather go buy a proper rifle for the job

kkelly77

rrpc wrote: »

This link brings you to their target pistols page which includes the carbine conversion kit.

Is the pistol used for ISSF shooting?

Sparks

Yes, but not with the carbine kit. The GSP's one of the mainstays of ISSF pistol shooting.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

It's one of those interesting edge cases - it's a component part, so it needs a licence, so it must have an identifying mark on it (or you can't get the licence); which means it'll have to be a seperate licence from your existing one for the GSP...

Bleh. I'd rather go buy a proper rifle for the job

Well we're talking about a gallery .22 rifle here. There really are very few contenders for the job, so this could well be another one.

For someone who wanted to do a bit of everything, it's a neat little compromise. The GSP is a pretty faultless machine (250,000 of them say so) and they eat anything you put into them. Add a proper match barrel to a tried and tested action allied with a good stock and you may have a very competitve combo.

It's a hefty 3.8Kgs in weight, so it can't be accused of being too light for the job either.

The pistol will do a lot more than ISSF. It's been around so long there's oodles of add ons for it including 10 shot mags, a .32 wad cutter conversion kit and the older models also had a .22 short conversion kit as well.

There's life in the old dog yet! Walther must be so happy with it

kkelly77

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but not with the carbine kit. The GSP's one of the mainstays of ISSF pistol shooting.

I'd need something for WA 1500 or T&P shooting

Bananaman

That Walther would be an interesting proposition but you'd have to play with one and see if it 'works' - both as a pistol and as a carbine. Same with the weight - would it work for you?

The Pistol Grip may not fit you and would be a pain in the aforementioned.

I've never fired one but have fired various Pardini and Hammerli with the wooden grips and my hand (read bear paw) does not fit into any of the ones I have tried so I end up with a bad grip with obvious consequences.

I still think If I was buying a smallbore gallery rifle I would get a buckmark as I like the action and the weight. Also has the advantage that you can go kick the tyres and see if you like it.

B'man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

That Walther would be an interesting proposition but you'd have to play with one and see if it 'works' - both as a pistol and as a carbine. Same with the weight - would it work for you?

With an overall length of something aound a metre it's going to be short enough to have the C of G back towards your shoulder and the weight shouldn't really be a factor. I'd reckon a lot of it is in the barrel (that's a fairly hefty piece of stainless steel), but as it's only 18" long and your support hand is going to be almost centred on it, it should be OK. The weight should also help keep recoil down.

The Pistol Grip may not fit you and would be a pain in the aforementioned.

I've never fired one but have fired various Pardini and Hammerli with the wooden grips and my hand (read bear paw) does not fit into any of the ones I have tried so I end up with a bad grip with obvious consequences.

You may have been using medium grips which are for a hand of about 85-90mm across the knuckles. Grips can be got up to XXL from some manufacturers and if you're getting your own made well there's no limit to the size.

I still think If I was buying a smallbore gallery rifle I would get a buckmark as I like the action and the weight. Also has the advantage that you can go kick the tyres and see if you like it.

Well you can try out GSP's here as there are quite a few around. When you consider that benched with only a 115mm barrel they can hold a group of 3" or thereabouts at 25m then a 454mm target barrel is going to have to be even better.

But yes, I'd love to try one and see what it's like.