The young sprinters dodgy hamstring and other stuff......

thirtyfoot

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=8525

Hamstring went after 90m, gutted for the guy, it was his focus all season.

I suppose its bothered him all season. I think he needs to get it sorted once and for all or he could be the new Tomas Coman. Huge potential curtailed by injury.

thirtyfoot

thejovialhost wrote: »

Hamstring after 90m what an awful shame. This was his time to shine.

Gutted is an understatement there. As far as I know this hamstring never really gave any trouble, it was his groin or hip flexor a few years back that was giving him trouble and ruled him out for over a year. Now this

I think the hammer has been an issue in past year. Strained it before World Junior last year when running at the National Juniors. Was a problem too at the Varsities. I fear that if the issues aren't sorted now he could continue to be plagued. Michael Johnson kept getting injured in his college years. He got to the root of it and despite a few niggles was pretty injury free for the following decade. Hamstrings are a fecker. If its a problem and is niggling away, as a sprinter its hard to let her rip when its in the back of your mind.

Irishathlete_1

Here's my question on Gregan having read the posts. Gregan has had this hamstring problem for over a year, correct?

If so, then that either bad coaching, bad management, bad attitude from the athlete in terms of rehab. Its one, or a combination of the above.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept "Hamstrings can be a bitch". It happens once, ok, bad luck. Happens a second time, you sit everyone down, work out why he didn't recover properly the first time, then you do not let it happen again.

If it is a continual problem then there has to be a reason, a root cause. I see Ciaran Fitz posts on here, maybe he could comment generically on hamstring problems and the most common causes are. It could be a lack of flexibility/mobility, it could be a nerve problem that hasn't been treated correctly, or maybe it is just rushing the injury back and not 'cleaning' the scar tissue out properly.

Gregan is one of the bright hopes of Irish athletics, so would be treated accordingly by the medics/physios etc...., so funding should not be an issue.

My next question is if he is carrying an injury why is he wasting his time at the Intervarsities etc...?

You can say I have high standards etc, but this is basics, absolute basics.

Pherekydes

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

Here's my question on Gregan having read the posts...

I don't think this is the thread for discussing an athlete's injury in depth. This is a thread for discussing the results of the European U-23 championships, especially from an Irish perspective.

Irishathlete_1

His result was a DNF due to a hamstring problem he's had for over a year. I'm asking why has he still got the same problem for a year, so I think its entirely appropriate to ask the question on this thread.

DJS

Ok enough critism of the guy irishathlete_1
The guy had no problems in a good while as you can see going into his last few races. He has a problem and he gets physio nearly every single day and has a very hard working crew off people behind him, he has a top coach in john sheilds and he has a very good physio that is always there to help. Nothing else I think can be done to solved his problem. He is a big guy and the only thing that anyone can cristise is his drive to train hard. He is such a determinded athlete, wether its looking after his weight, getting enough sleep or what ever it may be. The guy is an inspiration to alot of athletes so I think you can take your critism somewhere else

Stupid_Private

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

.... I see Ciaran Fitz posts on here...

Don't think he does - there's a cfitz on here alright but that's not him.

Irishathlete_1

DJS - I'm asking what his problem is. Dependent on what it is, then I will pass comment as I believe is appropriate. If there is a relatively simple solution, then I don't have an issue with being critical. From the 4 or 5 posts above, it seems to be a fairly common belief that he has had an on going problem for a sustained period.

That said, nobody should have a hamstring problem that needs daily treatment over a long sustained period. I would ask serious questions of the physio if what you are saying is true.

If it is because of his size, then he should undertake a program to strengthen the weakened muscle so he has balance to the muscles. You say he has a problem that can't be solved, well frankly that's bull****. Moving out of athletics, Ryan Giggs had a persistent hamstring problem that the physio's at Man U could not figure out. It transpired to be as a result of his driving position in his car. He has not had the problem since. Steve McManaman had a hamstring problem that kept coming back. He went to see Ger Hartman and went on to play for years more at Liverpool and Real Madrid unhindered.

I'm sure Brian is a very nice guy, I never said otherwise, nor did I question the commitment of those around him. Again, if what you say is true about his physio treating him almost daily, then I think his coach, or team, should be asking why this is. They obviously are not, which I would seriously ask why they are not.

thirtyfoot

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

His result was a DNF due to a hamstring problem he's had for over a year. I'm asking why has he still got the same problem for a year, so I think its entirely appropriate to ask the question on this thread.

Yeah, probably best to keep it off the thread as I believe you know very little of the situation unless you have a source in the Gregan camp so saying its bad management, bad coaching or bad attitude from Brian is surprising coming from one who claims to be a top coach. Top coaches I know would never say such stuff about a coaching setup they know nothing of. But then again.........

I've sent you a PM.

Rineanna

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

DJS - I'm asking what his problem is. Dependent on what it is, then I will pass comment as I believe is appropriate. If there is a relatively simple solution, then I don't have an issue with being critical. From the 4 or 5 posts above, it seems to be a fairly common belief that he has had an on going problem for a sustained period.

That said, nobody should have a hamstring problem that needs daily treatment over a long sustained period. I would ask serious questions of the physio if what you are saying is true.

If it is because of his size, then he should undertake a program to strengthen the weakened muscle so he has balance to the muscles. You say he has a problem that can't be solved, well frankly that's bull****. Moving out of athletics, Ryan Giggs had a persistent hamstring problem that the physio's at Man U could not figure out. It transpired to be as a result of his driving position in his car. He has not had the problem since. Steve McManaman had a hamstring problem that kept coming back. He went to see Ger Hartman and went on to play for years more at Liverpool and Real Madrid unhindered.

I'm sure Brian is a very nice guy, I never said otherwise, nor did I question the commitment of those around him. Again, if what you say is true about his physio treating him almost daily, then I think his coach, or team, should be asking why this is. They obviously are not, which I would seriously ask why they are not.

I propose this topic gets split into a separate thread. It's a legitimate topic, I guess, but I'm fairly sick of every competition thread getting de-railed and high-tempered.

DJS

Every top athlete gets daily massages and thats what I mean. And I think the negativity on this board is amazing 12months ago he was the best talent in the land. He suffer a career treatening injury at 17, for him to come back and make the final of the world juniors must say something about his coachs.. He had a grade 2 tear in his hamstrings and when the AAI physio's told him he couldnt run at the world junior his physio put in hours of work everyday to get him ready for the start of the 400m last year. So I dont think its the physio just a matter of bad luck thats all

thirtyfoot

DJS wrote: »

Every top athlete gets daily massages and thats what I mean. And I think the negativity on this board is amazing 12months ago he was the best talent in the land. He suffer a career treatening injury at 17, for him to come back and make the final of the world juniors must say something about his coachs.. He had a grade 2 tear in his hamstrings and when the AAI physio's told him he couldnt run at the world junior his physio put in hours of work everyday to get him ready for the start of the 400m last year. So I dont think its the physio just a matter of bad luck thats all

DJS - you know Grego and you know what the story is. Anyone who knows him, knows what the story is and the vast majority of people on the forum who have an interest in track know he is the real deal and respect him and really want the guy to do well. This is a setback but he will be back. He has a long and succesfull career ahead of him. There will always be knockers and those putting the boot in. Most will be sitting on a couch or behind a keyboard (like us:D) but they/we don't matter as they will have no or little influence on Brian in his future. Brian doesn't need defending, he'll do his talking on the track in years to come!!!

irish athlete_1 - if you want to know about Gregans setup, PM DJS and he'll fill you in.

PS - if you want a separate thread on this, let me know and I'll move it out?

myflipflops

DJS wrote: »

And I think the negativity on this board is amazing

i know you're taking issue with a particular post/poster but I would say that that this forum is generally wholly positive towards Irish athletes.

DJS

Tingle wrote: »

DJS - you know Grego and you know what the story is. Anyone who knows him, knows what the story is and the vast majority of people on the forum who have an interest in track know he is the real deal and respect him and really want the guy to do well. This is a setback but he will be back. He has a long and succesfull career ahead of him. There will always be knockers and those putting the boot in. Most will be sitting on a couch or behind a keyboard (like us:D) but they/we don't matter as they will have no or little influence on Brian in his future. Brian doesn't need defending, he'll do his talking on the track in years to come!!!

Nicely put man:D couldnt say it better myself, And yeah there isnt that much negativity but its just a shame to see people getting knocked down

Stupid_Private

Am I the only one who didn't find that post critical? It reads, to me anyway, like irishathlete_1 is asking if this really is a persistant problem have the correct steps been taken to sort it and if not why not. I don't see how it could be split into another thread - athlete gets injured in a championships and someone questions the injury in that championship thread. Seems like the right place to me. What an odd new thread you'd have to start to ask a question about an injury to an irish athlete. Maybe read the post again and you'll see its not critical, highly fueled or bad tempered.

Anyway, great result for McCarthy.

Irishathlete_1

Thank you Stupid_Private, this is pretty much the PM I've sent Tingle.

I think Brian Gregan is a super talent, but as it stands that is all he is. He has achieved very little (tin hat on!!). I believe he has the ability to be a low 45 second runner, but ability and delivering on that ability are two different things.

It is my biggest gripe about athletics/athletes in Ireland. We have all the junior talent in the world, but we probably only filter through less then 10%, but this is for another thread.

My question on Brian has still not been answered. What was his injury that needs daily treatment? I have never known an athlete to need daily physio on a muscle tear. Intensive treatment in a combination of deep tissue massage, active stretching/mobilisation, manipulation, yes, but daily physio is something I have never come across.

thirstywork

I think its a cheap shot myself.also the intervarsities would have to be run as he is on a scholarship.
Im sure he wasnt running them flat out.
regarding pwhites comment i agree most things on here are more in praise of athletes but when things dont go right people are so quick to hav a stab at the athlete/coach ect.
time to grow up!!!

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

. Maybe read the post again and you'll see its not critical, highly fueled or bad tempered.

.

I don't think it should be moved from here by the way.

The point that gets me is that he says the injury is either down to bad management, bad coaching or the athletes bad attitude. Yet, he professes to not having a clue about the Gregan setup. I started the query about the hamstring and said he needs to get it sorted but I didn't start implying that his coach is bad or the guy has an attitude problem.

irish athlete_1 claims to be a world class coach who has coached an athlete to a 4th in a world champs over 400m. Maybe true but apart from Joe Ryan in the States I know of no Irish coach who can claim this. If he is a world class coach (as he claims) I am very disappointed that he would cast aspertions on another coach and his setup especially as he doesn't know the facts. Very simple for me, grand to discuss his injury and the importance of getting it fixed but throwing the boot when he hasn't clue and the reason seems to have a pop (not for the first time) at another Irish athlete.

Stupid Private - if you came on and said you were injured how would you feel if I weighed in and said the reasons you are injured is because you are a lazy bastard even though I have no idea what training you do or what you are like as I have never met you. Now imagine you are an elite athlete and this is your dream and your future. How would you feel. If your mates are on and read it how would they feel. How would your mates feel if I had been on abusing one of their other mates previously. Would it be easy to take again.


Generally, this is not all about being all rosy and positive. Its about being realistic though and encouraging and celebrating what we have and using that to build. Tin hat on here, the vibe from irish athlete_1 is that nothing seems good enough and he seems to like the fact that I claim he has high standards. I have been advised by a couple of people (by PM) to not rise to this as he used to be on previous Irish athletics chatboards doing the same, knocking athletes, knocking the sport in general, nothing good enough, pretending to be some big shot. Now I don't know if its the same person and it probably doesn't matter but even leaving that aside and taking his posts here at face value I struggle to reconcile his roy keane style its all about winning with his constant negativity. Should I be able to forget about his previous posts and 'tone' as a moderator, probably, but jaysus its hard when you see a 19 year old kid been essentially accused of having a bad attutude by a guy who has never met him especially when I have seen the kid break his balls on the track in Santry throughout the winter.

End of rant.

Racing Flat

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

hamstring problem for over a year,

If so, then that either bad coaching, bad management, bad attitude from the athlete in terms of rehab. Its one, or a combination of the above.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept "Hamstrings can be a bitch". It happens once, ok, bad luck. Happens a second time, you sit everyone down, work out why he didn't recover properly the first time, then you do not let it happen again.

If it is a continual problem then there has to be a reason, a root cause.

I don't know anything about the specific athlete but in relation to hamstrng injuries in general...the problem is once you have a muscle injury as an adult the tissue your body produces to replace the damaged tissue will never be the same as the original tissue. So no matter how perfect the rehabilitation, the muscle will never be 100% the same again.

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

Ryan Giggs

An excellent example of someone who eventually continued a successful career despite recurrent hamstring injuries. This was due to improved management of the condition rather than resolving the problem. As you mentioned, changing his car, but also coming off in a game as soon as he felt the slightest tightness in the hamstring. This way he might miss a game or 2, but then he'd be back. Prior to this, for quite some time he'd miss 3-4 months for a few years IIRC. They learnt from their mistakes of rushing him back too soon and taking risks, but ultimately realised that they got more game time out of him by taking an ultra-cautious approach. A player who was possibly not afforded this luxury was Michael Owen, possibly a big factor in him not continuing a successful career. But in both cases, once the initial injury occured, they definitely lost that explosive acceleration to a certain extent. While you might get away with this in football it's a bit harder in sprinting. I suppose my point being the best thing is to avoid the injury in the first place, failing that, have the best management in the world to improve your chances of a successful return, but it still may be problematic.

Irishathlete_1

Racing Flat wrote: »

So no matter how perfect the rehabilitation, the muscle will never be 100% the same again.

I agree with you here, but with a 19 year old athlete do you agree that if this problem has been identified properly, then a plan can be put in place to reduce the risk of a re-occurence to almost nil?

Tingle - The athlete's I have coached are an international 400m runner and an athlete who has finished 4th at a World Championships. I have coached a number of others, but nobody who are worth discussing at an international level.

I have not actually been critical of anyone on this matter (Gregan) as I have clearly stated that I do not know the details of his injury and the background to it. I have asked some probing questions surrounding an injury to an athlete, an injury which also surfaced prior to his last major championships, and according to other posters, he has had earlier this season. If this was a one off injury I would be very sympathetic, as this can happen to anyone at any given time. Something that seems to happen over and over again (and I am yet to be set straight on this) is certainly an issue that should be discussed. I have never accused Brian of having a bad attitude. It is a possibility, as are a dozen other reasons for the injury!

I have not posted on any message boards before, as I stated from the outset. I felt this board is one of the first to have intelligent progressive discussions, which is what I am trying to have.

I still remain without an answer to any of the questions I raised earlier, both here in public and via PM with Tingle and DJS. As I have stated many times, and have found some agreement on here, I am not being critical of any individual(s), I am simply looking to identify the root of a problem, yet nobody seems able/willing to give an answer.

DJS

Im sorry if i didnt reply earlier but some of us actually still run and was running.

As for your question, I answered it. You asked why he needs daily physio and I told you all the top sprinters get massages nearly daily and he is no different. But also his physio is his strenght and conditoner and also a training partner. So he is there when ever brian needs him. Brian works on all aspects to improve his injuries and is the most cautious person I know when it comes to injury. And as far as I know there had been no problem with his hamstring before the champs, if there was he would not have ran the 200m at the u23s its just bad timing that it happened here.

I think this discussion is drifting away from the actual talk about the championships and I for one is sick of being negative, I mean we won a medal today but yet were still talkin about Brian.

thirtyfoot

I just realised is this a prime example the way we love a scrap and a fight. No wonder we have infighting in the sport:rolleyes: We are all as bad;)

Racing Flat

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

I agree with you here, but with a 19 year old athlete do you agree that if this problem has been identified properly, then a plan can be put in place to reduce the risk of a re-occurence to almost nil?

A number of intrinsic and extrinsic predisposing factors to hamstring injury are suspected:

Intrinsic:
1.Age
2.Previous injury
3.Race
4.Flexibility
5.Strength
6.Neuromyofascial
7.Lumbopelvic stability
Joint dysfubction
Extrinsic:
1.Warm-up
2.Fatigue
3.Fitness level
4.Training modalities

As with most of these things, previous history of injury is one of the main risk factors for hamstring injury. So once you have one you are more likley to have another one than if you had never been injured...

Certainly it makes sense that early, correct identification of the inury and associated factors with subsequent appropriate management will maximise the chances of a full return to pre-injury levels of performance. But because of healing (rates and quality possibly being slightly different in everyone), it's not always a linear relationship - some people sit on their ass after an injury and recover fine, others do all the correct treatment and rehabilitation and still have ongoing problems.

A frequent issue, particularly in team sports is people going back or being rushed back too soon. Text-books will tell you that muscle injuries take 4-6 weeks to heal, but this may be a bit misleading. So a player gets injured and after the match, the coach says 'he's tweaked his hamstring, he'll be back in 4-6weeks' so then there's a pressure on the rehab staff as well as the player...But there are 3 phases to healing - 1 inflammatory, 2 proliferation and 3 remodelling, i.e. 1 initial bleeding/swelling and clearing away of damaged tissue, 2 the torn fibres 'joining back together' again and 3 lining up in the right manner according to the forces placed on the tissue. While stage 2 may be completed in 6 weeks, ie the tear is knitted back together, the remodelling or lining up or getting ready for dull force to go through the muscle again may take months or years depending on the structure involved. So sometimes rather than continually trying to get back to play a match, players might be better served taking a back seat, writing off a longer period and spend a long time working on conditioning so that there body is fully ready for a return.

Racing Flat

Tingle wrote: »

I just realised is this a prime example the way we love a scrap and a fight. No wonder we have infighting in the sport:rolleyes: We are all as bad;)

One thing that struck me when I saw one of the people who has been in the media a lot recently at the Morton Mile, was that despite widespread misgivings, there was no chanting from the crowd 'Sack the Board' and the like that you might get at a football match, so maybe we're not all that bad!

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

One thing that struck me when I saw one of the people who has been in the media a lot recently at the Morton Mile, was that despite widespread misgivings, there was no chanting from the crowd 'Sack the Board' and the like that you might get at a football match, so maybe we're not all that bad!

That would be hilarious, fans staying behind in the stadium with a sit in protest on the pitch, silent protest march from the Omni in Santry to Morton in support of such and such a person, talk of Charlie Chawke and Paddy the Plasterer takeovers, banners saying "ABC Out" from the ultras on the Hill at Nationals. Take it to another level then. Raheny Ultras arriving over on the Saturday of the Nationals and storming the Clonliffe clubhouse and taking over the Clonliffe bar, a line of vizzy jacket police keeping the Leevale and Togher boys apart in the stand, a drunken Mary Coghlan doing a Delia Smith type half-time rant and on. More football type shenanigans in athletics. We could then also have 24 hour TV coverage. Could be the way forward.

Jackie_Dazzler

Why cant we all just get along?

RJM22

eh...chill?

SloggerJogger

Tingle wrote: »

That would be hilarious, fans staying behind in the stadium with a sit in protest on the pitch, silent protest march from the Omni in Santry to Morton in support of such and such a person, talk of Charlie Chawke and Paddy the Plasterer takeovers, banners saying "ABC Out" from the ultras on the Hill at Nationals. Take it to another level then. Raheny Ultras arriving over on the Saturday of the Nationals and storming the Clonliffe clubhouse and taking over the Clonliffe bar, a line of vizzy jacket police keeping the Leevale and Togher boys apart in the stand, a drunken Mary Coghlan doing a Delia Smith type half-time rant and on. More football type shenanigans in athletics. We could then also have 24 hour TV coverage. Could be the way forward.

I am all for this!!!!! Nationals ill start the chanting!!!!:D

DangerMouse27

Despite all of this...the poor guy is still injured and no one can question his determination to get back on the track.As for poor coaching/advice i offer you this..

Clyde Hart came acrosss Mj running 200m reps into a gail force wind and rainstorm..Coach Hart asked him why he was out in it and not just swap a session, Mj replied that he couldnt take the chance that any of his rivals would do the same and take the easy way so thats why he took it hard on himself.

Young guy like Gregan would need a locked track,Mountain Gorilla security guards and electrified tartan to stop him from training and even then he would have electrified tartan burns on his feet!
We cant question the guy or his methods or even his coach.
His full potential has not been realised and i for one think he can go 44 in the distant future.

Who did you coach to get fourth in Worlds Irishathlete_1? Senior or Juniors?