Bord Snip - who's for the Chop

McLovinit

Hi,

Has anyone got any opinion which Government Agencies are for the "snip". There is a lot of talk about Shannon Development but does anyone have any sus on who else might go or be merged.

I've seen that something like 20,000 jobs could be axed over next 5 years.

I'm a manager in the public sector and at times its embarrassing. I've just recently approved 3 pay increments (rises) for people on my team. Its a joke we are talking about pay and recruitment freeze but this annual pay rise, (basically for just turning up) still gets paid. Please do not talk to me about PMDS, this is one of the greatest cons of the public sector gravy train. If i could have i would have refused 2 of the 3 pay increments or certainly not approved them, however its simply not worth the hassle, you end up having to go into a whole sham of a process and eventually they grind you down until the increment gets paid. I've seen too many colleagues had formal complaints lodged against them for rejecting the pay rises and in the end its easier just to go with the flow. I know that its a total cop-out and it breaks the back of good performers who have no incentive to achieve more than your Mr and Mrs Average. Rises should only be paid when someone makes an exceptional performance not simply becuause we have a lame duck PMDS box ticking excercise to appease control-crats in HR departments.

A performance bonus should not be an automatic right.

Anyway, we have far too many agencies doing more or less the same thing, spending tax payers money on complete fodder, how many Tourism bodies have we got? how many Agricultural and foods bodies ? how many regional development boards ? etc etc etc.

Time to get real.

moot

I fear the cuts will be opposed by all kinds of special interest groups, and eventually watered down until eventually the savings required aren't realised.

Fair play for being so open about the problems from the 'inside'.

McLovinit

Without doubt, it won't be just the unions but all the party politically appointed boards of all the state bodies. Lets not forget that they are all connected to this Government and form part of the quiet elite vanguard. All the vested interests will also surface. I don't think the current Minister has the bottle to take hard decisions, he thinks by saying he is going to take hard decisions and then giving that scarey look to the camera, will do the trick.....he's got the chocolate fireguard syndrome.

I think you need a Minister like McCreevy who would not take any nonsense and would just go with his own conviction. (which he did with decentralisation! which of course turned out to be a pigs dinner!) but you get my drift.

As for life in the public sector I could fill hundreds of pages on Boards.ie with the farce that is life on the inside. But maybe it will be life on the outside again after 2pm tomorrow!

Kristopherus

Here yous go Public Service bashing again. OP if its such a load on you , why don't you get the hell out and try the private service for a while.

eman66

It's just the pre-show warm up for the IMF.

DigiJem

Hi OP, firstly, welcome as a new boardsie

I can't believe a public sector agency is still dishing out performance bonuses, can you clarify which agency you're a manager in?

jumpguy

Public sector getting pay rises still? In fairness now...there's not much else to say when we're hearing that...

I reckon it will be a major axing of all pen-pushers, but some tough choices too. The unions will go insane, no doubt. It's gonna be an interesting next few months. I think at least ONE major strike is gonna happen. Also, it's unfortunate timing, because our Dáil happens to be enjoying their summer holidays in the most turbulent economics this country has ever faced.

Darragh29

McLovinit wrote: »

Hi,

Has anyone got any opinion which Government Agencies are for the "snip". There is a lot of talk about Shannon Development but does anyone have any sus on who else might go or be merged.

I've seen that something like 20,000 jobs could be axed over next 5 years.

I'm a manager in the public sector and at times its embarrassing. I've just recently approved 3 pay increments (rises) for people on my team. Its a joke we are talking about pay and recruitment freeze but this annual pay rise, (basically for just turning up) still gets paid. Please do not talk to me about PMDS, this is one of the greatest cons of the public sector gravy train. If i could have i would have refused 2 of the 3 pay increments or certainly not approved them, however its simply not worth the hassle, you end up having to go into a whole sham of a process and eventually they grind you down until the increment gets paid. I've seen too many colleagues had formal complaints lodged against them for rejecting the pay rises and in the end its easier just to go with the flow. I know that its a total cop-out and it breaks the back of good performers who have no incentive to achieve more than your Mr and Mrs Average. Rises should only be paid when someone makes an exceptional performance not simply becuause we have a lame duck PMDS box ticking excercise to appease control-crats in HR departments.

A performance bonus should not be an automatic right.

Anyway, we have far too many agencies doing more or less the same thing, spending tax payers money on complete fodder, how many Tourism bodies have we got? how many Agricultural and foods bodies ? how many regional development boards ? etc etc etc.

Time to get real.

Interesting post OP. I think thought that you need to be the change you want to see in the world.

Speak out and call this bullsh*t for what it is. Only in Ireland in the public sector could a performance increment or a bonus be an automatic right. In any private sector employment, very clear conditions would exist for something like this. The notion that there are people getting a pay increase now in the public sector makes me sick.

dresden8

Darragh29 wrote: »

The notion that there are people getting a pay increase now in the public sector makes me sick.

How about the banks? Does that make you sick?

lobber

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0716/1224250762839.html

Irish Times have some brief details of An Bord Snips proposals.

Merging county and city councils, merging small rural schools, abolishing govt departments such as Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, axing €20 million from Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism budgets before deciding its future, cuts in state pensions and unemployment benefit, absorbing all community enterprise boards into Enterprise Ireland (including Shannon development OP!), 17000 state job losses and a €300 million reduction in the HSE paybill!!!

You can bet they have withheld the most severe proposals for the time being as well.

solice

17,000 state job losses...is this by natural waste (not replacing people who leave) or mandatory redundancy?

I would fear that if its a blanket laying off of people, the efficent and dedicated workers, of which there are many, will loose their jobs along with the lazy paper pushers, of which there are many.

I would like it to be dependent on a performance review to be carried out by the employer and an external consultant so it wouldnt be just jobs for the boys

SkepticOne

Kristopherus wrote: »

OP if its such a load on you , why don't you get the hell out and try the private service for a while.

How would that solve the problem? The practices he complains of would simply carry on in his absence.

Fat_Fingers

Government and all politicians need to lead by example but we all know their past record on that.
They should reduce their own salaries and expenses, Reduce the number of TD, abolish Seanad, remove Mary Harney, abolish quangos and abolish Irish president ....world tours at the tax payers expence is no longer tenable, we were not even allowed an election for President in 2004

Darragh29

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Government and all politicians need to lead by example but we all know their past record on that.
They should reduce their own salaries and expenses, Reduce the number of TD, abolish Seanad, remove Mary Harney, abolish quangos and abolish Irish president ....world tours at the tax payers expence is no longer tenable, we were not even allowed an election for President in 2004

These guys are still claiming expenses that they don't have to vouch for. There isn't a business organisation in the country that operates like this, but these guys are still getting blank cheques written for themselves...

astrofool

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Government and all politicians need to lead by example but we all know their past record on that.
They should reduce their own salaries and expenses, Reduce the number of TD, abolish Seanad, remove Mary Harney, abolish quangos and abolish Irish president ....world tours at the tax payers expence is no longer tenable, we were not even allowed an election for President in 2004

Whatever else said about her, Harney's problem has been that she wasn't allowed to instigate the cuts needed in the public health service when they could have been (formation of the HSE) because of FF hand wringing. This has lead to the costs of the HSE spiralling out of control, with most of the wages being spent on administration rather than doctors and nurses.

TCP/IP_King

The farm was more prosperous now, and better organised: it had even been
enlarged by two fields which had been bought from Mr. Pilkington. The
windmill had been successfully completed at last, and the farm possessed a
threshing machine and a hay elevator of its own, and various new buildings
had been added to it. Whymper had bought himself a dogcart. The windmill,
however, had not after all been used for generating electrical power. It
was used for milling corn, and brought in a handsome money profit. The
animals were hard at work building yet another windmill; when that one was
finished, so it was said, the dynamos would be installed. But the luxuries
of which Snowball had once taught the animals to dream, the stalls with
electric light and hot and cold water, and the three-day week, were no
longer talked about. Napoleon had denounced such ideas as contrary to the
spirit of Animalism. The truest happiness, he said, lay in working hard
and living frugally.

Kristopherus

astrofool wrote: »

Whatever else said about her, Harney's problem has been that she wasn't allowed to instigate the cuts needed in the public health service when they could have been (formation of the HSE) because of FF hand wringing. This has lead to the costs of the HSE spiralling out of control, with most of the wages being spent on administration rather than doctors and nurses.

Less than 10% of HSE expenditure is on Administrative salaries. Get you facts right before posting:(

Sniipe

6000 for the chop in the Health section;
Thats a big number, how many are currently are working there?
The areas off the top of my head are:
doctors, nurses, lab aids, porters, cleaners, security, managers, administration, consultants, ...?

Gumbo

Sniipe wrote: »

6000 for the chop in the Health section;
Thats a big number, how many are currently are working there?
The areas off the top of my head are:
doctors, nurses, lab aids, porters, cleaners, security, managers, administration, consultants, ...?

111,000 iirc

Sniipe

kceire wrote: »

111,000 iirc

So thats just a 5% cut, I guess thats reasnoable.

Is that over 5 years? If so thats not so bad, some retire, some will take redundancy, some are just incompetent (surely with such a big figure there are some that are incompetent) that need to be fired/let go.

I know from family working in the HSE that there are other areas where savings could be made.

AFAIK if you go to the doc and get your bloods taken that the doc charges extra... ?? Even tho its a free service, perhaps the hospitals should charge for this? Also consultants which do a great job seem to be overpaid...

luckat

Sniipe wrote: »

Also consultants which do a great job seem to be overpaid...

I think you've missed the point here, Sniipe - the cuts are only designed to hurt the poor. Consultants don't qualify.

MayoForSam

Almost 7000 proposed job cuts for education and science proposed, that's even more than for health.

Plus amalgamation of smaller primary schools.

Plus everyone will have to pay for school transport, up to €500 per year (after means testing).

Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to be abolished.

Is it just me or will that impact unfairly on predominantly the West of the country (so what's new)?

coopersgreen

Sniipe wrote: »

6000 for the chop in the Health section;
Thats a big number, how many are currently are working there?
The areas off the top of my head are:
doctors, nurses, lab aids, porters, cleaners, security, managers, administration, consultants, ...?

So that'll be 6,000 front line workers which will mean the pencil pushers and admins will be more efficient.

luckat

coopersgreen wrote: »

So that'll be 6,000 front line workers which will mean the pencil pushers and admins will be more efficient.

How sweet your faith that the efficient ones will be kept, and not the arselickers.

stereo_steve

MayoForSam wrote: »

Almost 7000 proposed job cuts for education and science proposed, that's even more than for health.

Plus amalgamation of smaller primary schools.

Plus everyone will have to pay for school transport, up to €500 per year (after means testing).

Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to be abolished.

Is it just me or will that impact unfairly on predominantly the West of the country (so what's new)?

If someone chooses to live out side of a city they have to expect higher costs for services. There's a reason you spent less on rent / morgage.

happytime

44 million axed off community dev annual budget...wonder what % of this is annual budget....

RAPID abolished

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

scary times

akaredtop

I think the revelations about the waste in the Public Sector is going to be quite scary. That is why the Unions are trying to gag "An Bord Snip".

luckat

What's RAPID, please, happytime?

old boy

stereo_steve wrote: »

If someone chooses to live out side of a city they have to expect higher costs for services. There's a reason you spent less on rent / morgage.

so you claim that any one who cannot, or wishes not to, adapt to city life, shell out extra, to support the people that wishes to, why not have it the other way around.

Schmerbatov

FSA closed. Reason given? Mediation service wasn't keeping enough couples together. Classic.

When will the media start using the term McCarthyism?

happytime

Revitalising Areas by Planning Investment and Development (RAPID)

http://www.pobail.ie/en/RAPIDandCLR/

stereo_steve

old boy wrote: »

so you claim that any one who cannot, or wishes not to, adapt to city life, shell out extra, to support the people that wishes to, why not have it the other way around.

The fact is, infrastructure and service wise , it is far more expensive to service people living outside of built up areas. Its a simple fact, not my opinion.

It costs more to bring a water pipe / electricity cable / telephone cable / health care to remote areas. Less tax is generated in those areas and they cost more to operate. Simple fact based purely on population sizes.

You seemed to think that the west was getting hit hard as if you were being targeted. The reality is its a lower populated area and that's why it might suffer.

alan4cult

This may seem like a stupid question but:

Are the cuts recommended in the Bord Snip Nua Report just recommendations or must the government adopt them right away i.e. can there be any negotiations?

McLovinit

I've just seen the 2 reports. On face value it would appear that most of what is in the report was substantially leaked so very little real surprises.

Will this change the way the public sector works?, ....I doubt it.
It basically means the public sector will continue to run in a largely inefficient manner but with fewer resources. Putting more strain on workers that already carry most of the deadwood and likely just bringing critical service areas to halt.

Real cost and permanent cost savings could have been acheived if McCarthy had of addressed the way public institutions actual function and perform. He has instead suggested to merge the some of the worst performing bodies with bodies that are larger but not by any means more efficient or providing better services. Its just adding bad work practices to largely worse work practices.

Very little for the Min for Finance to kop out on as McCarthy has largely done it for him

Carlow52

alan4cult wrote: »

This may seem like a stupid question but:

Are the cuts recommended in the Bord Snip Nua Report just recommendations or must the government adopt them right away i.e. can there be any negotiations?

Its just a list of suggestions: its up to Gov to implement or not as the case may be

Can someone explain to me how An Bord Snip Nua recommendations of €5.31 billion euro in cuts are going to save us money and help the economy

1. 17,350 state job loses - increase unemployment
2. 5% cuts to all social welfare payments
3. 20% cut in child benefit payments
4. medical card cuts
5. €1.2 billion cuts in the health budget - 6000 job losses
6. 6000 - 7000 job cuts in primary, secondary and third level education
7. some rural school closures
8. Gardai station numbers to be closed

So job loses, making the poor even poorer, make an absolute shame of our schools and the health system, increase crime rates, keep the rich, rich is the answer to the countries problems, what the hell is this crowd thinking :mad:

What we need is a change of government, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, engery & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

The above mentioned recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua if implemented would be a disaster for the country.

BroomBurner

First off, OP, I am a bit disgusted with your attitude. I would never, ever sign off on a PMDS and issue an increment if I didn't believe that it was deserved. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your ability to manage.

Secondly, the report today was interesting. I'd like to know how they plan to remove the staff numbers that they're talking about. Nothing is going ot happen for the next few months anyway, seeing as the government is on their holidays from the Dail and can't enact anything. That'll give them the entire summer to gather the feeling from the public about it and decide what to do.

Some of the suggestions were immensely poor though.

halkar

Snip Snip. Sounds like IMF to me

oncevotedff

solice wrote: »

17,000 state job losses...is this by natural waste (not replacing people who leave) or mandatory redundancy?

It's by natural wastage unfortunately. 17,000 redundancies won't come near doing the job. The Depts of Health and Education alone had an increase of 38,000 staff in the last 8 years. You have to wonder why?

An I notice that while the Snippers recommended the abolition of two Departments they also recommended the formation of two new ones so there still be jobs for the boys in the Dail.

zod

RTE special

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1052292

BornToKill

Sniipe wrote: »

6000 for the chop in the Health section; Thats a big number, how many are currently are working there?

About half.

ixoy

Haven't studied it in detail but it looks like the area I'm in is one of the few where they're recommending more investment!

For all those against cutting spending, I'd like to hear alternative suggestions...

oncevotedff

hellboy99 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how An Bord Snip Nua recommendations of €5.31 billion euro in cuts are going to save us money and help the economy

1. 17,350 state job loses - increase unemployment
2. 5% cuts to all social welfare payments
3. 20% cut in child benefit payments
4. medical card cuts
5. €1.2 billion cuts in the health budget - 6000 job losses
6. 6000 - 7000 job cuts in primary, secondary and third level education
7. some rural school closures
8. Gardai station numbers to be closed

So job loses, making the poor even poorer, make an absolute shame of our schools and the health system, increase crime rates, keep the rich, rich is the answer to the countries problems, what the hell is this crowd thinking :mad:

What we need is a change of government, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, engery & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

The above mentioned recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua if implemented would be a disaster for the country.

If the government takes a public servant earning €500 a week and puts him on the dole at a cost of €200 a week that's a saving of €300 a week per person.

The current Social Welfare bill is unsustainable.

So is the cost of health care. The taxpayer is being ripped off in being forced to pay hugely inflated prices for medicine.

In addition the depts of health and education are hugely overstaffed. They in particular, and the whole public service in general, should be reduced to 2001 levels at least by mandatory redundancies which would clear out the dead wood.

Small rural schools and Garda stations that are occupied for a few hours a day are a waste of money.

BornToKill

ixoy wrote: »

For all those against cutting spending, I'd like to hear alternative suggestions...

It may be a little toooooo alternative for some but I've been thinking:

http://www.vegas.com/gaming/gaming_tips/roulette.html

One spin. Black. €30bn. Double or quits.

It's risky but it worked for Nick Leeson. Okay it didn't but it could have.

BornToKill

oncevotedff wrote: »

If the government takes a public servant earning €500 a week and puts him on the dole at a cost of €200 a week that's a saving of €300 a week per person.

But it isn't. Once on the dole they will qualify for rent allowance, medical card, back to school clothing and footwear allowance and all the rest of it. It's not the €500 a weekers you should be looking at.

Arathorn

BornToKill wrote: »

But it isn't. Once on the dole they will qualify for rent allowance, medical card, back to school clothing and footwear allowance and all the rest of it. It's not the €500 a weekers you should be looking at.

The proposed cuts are voluntary or through natural wastage. You should read the report, Irish times has it available in full.

irish_bob

oncevotedff wrote: »

If the government takes a public servant earning €500 a week and puts him on the dole at a cost of €200 a week that's a saving of €300 a week per person.

The current Social Welfare bill is unsustainable.

So is the cost of health care. The taxpayer is being ripped off in being forced to pay hugely inflated prices for medicine.

In addition the depts of health and education are hugely overstaffed. They in particular, and the whole public service in general, should be reduced to 2001 levels at least by mandatory redundancies which would clear out the dead wood.

Small rural schools and Garda stations that are occupied for a few hours a day are a waste of money.

i fully agree , especially about the rural schools , i live in a parish with a population of 1500 yet thier are three schools , one with under 40 students , one with under 30 ( both schools have two teachers ) and the other which has over a hundred , if the two smaller schools were to be closed down , the furthest any pupil would have to travel to school is four miles , now what is wrong with that

irish_bob

BornToKill wrote: »

But it isn't. Once on the dole they will qualify for rent allowance, medical card, back to school clothing and footwear allowance and all the rest of it. It's not the €500 a weekers you should be looking at.

gosh , you make it sound like being on the dole is a sweet gig , oh wait , it is

McLovinit

BroomBurner wrote: »

First off, OP, I am a bit disgusted with your attitude. I would never, ever sign off on a PMDS and issue an increment if I didn't believe that it was deserved. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your ability to manage.

I've 22 years experience working in management over which 2/3rds of it is in the private sector, i came with a fresh ideas thinking i could apply private sector logic to public ethics, after a very short period of time that appeared to be almost impossible. If your trying to tell me that the PMDS system is the best way to manage, motivate and incentivise staff then you've obviously never been in the "real world". The first basic premise is that pay rises should never be an automatic right and they should be based on exceptional performance not just by virtue of the fact that you've done your job for the previous 12 months as it appears in your contract. On this basis the above average performers are treated in the exact same way as the average joe or jane. I think you need to re-evaluate your logic to redundant management mechanisms and perhaps take some time out in the real worl.

ixoy

McLovinit wrote: »

I've 22 years experience working in management over which 2/3rds of it is in the private sector, i came with a fresh ideas thinking i could apply private sector logic to public ethics, after a very short period of time that appeared to be almost impossible. If your trying to tell me that the PMDS system is the best way to manage, motivate and incentivise staff then you've obviously never been in the "real world".

Umm I'm pretty sure BroomBurner agrees with you - in fact if anything she's even more hardline than you because she won't sign off on increases unless she thinks they're deserved!

I've never managed it, but I've had a look at it and it's pretty meaningless. Given the tiny minority who don't get an automatic pay increase from it, it should be over-hauled and there's many public and civil servants here who'd agree with that. It'd save money too and give a better name to the service as well as reward those who try - it's win win.

BornToKill

Arathorn wrote: »

The proposed cuts are voluntary or through natural wastage. You should read the report, Irish times has it available in full.

What I wrote, Arathorn, was in response to a previous poster who suggested saving €300 a week per person by putting them on the dole. I've seen the report - though I haven't read it all. It's very long and only came out this afternoon.