Drugs aren't all that bad...

theganster

It really amazes me how often I hear people talking about drugs in a massively naive and ignorant manner. It's 2009 and the old wives tail of 'take drugs and your life is over' is still very much alive - usually shouted about by people who really have no experience or idea or what any of it is like at all. I think it's time a lot of people woke up and took a good look at the reality of things today.

What many people don't realise is just how prominent drugs are in our society (the world, not just Ireland) - and there stereotype of 'drugs are for loosers' is simply not true. The fact is that a huge amount of people in all walks of life, who have very successful lives in any persons book - regularily do recreational drugs without any real negative impact on their lives. Now obviously, I am taking about 'Recreational Drugs' here - Hash/Weed & Ecstasy mainly (and to a certain extent Cocaine) which are the most used drugs in popular society. I am NOT referring to Heroin, Crack, Meth etc etc. I think there is a massive line between these - these drugs really do ruin lives.

The way I look at it is that about 99% of people are probbaly able to responsibly use/enjoy recreational drugs occaisionally with no serious negative impact on their life or lifestyle. Yes, there is always the very small % of people who's personalties dictate that they cannot handle such substances and get carried away and possibly develop a problem - but this goes for anything really - I'm sure the % is much higher for Alcohol - which in fact causes and creates far more social and health problems than weed or pills.

Personally, I think drugs have had a very beneficial impact on my life - I know this might sound like a ridiculous shocking statement to many, but I'm sure very many people would have the same opinion. I'm in my late 20's now - I started smoking weed when i was 19 - but I kind of wish I had have done it a little earlier. Weed totally chilled me out and made me more laid back and relaxed - which was definitely a good thing. Personally, although I've done cocaine many times, I've never really got that much out of it - its fun to do a line now and then but for me I'm just not bothered. However, When I started taking ecstasy, it was an amazing thing and a milestone in my life. It is an incredibly special feeling and to do a few pills with your friends when you are all on the same level - is truly is one of the most incredible experiences to be had in this world. Just the overall amount of enjoyment and fun I have got from these is really quite substantial - yet I can report little or no real negative effects.

I respect people who are just not into drugs and would never try to persuade them otherwise, however I really feel sorry for anyone who will never try it in their lives and miss out on this experience. It would be like living your whole life and never having had sex, and in a way its a shame so many people pass on it due to some naive views on what will happen if they ever take drugs - thinking that one pill they'll turn into a junkie. They really don't call them "Mind Expanding Drugs" for no reason - and I really think they do broaden the mind. I think many people are far too narrow minded and could do to broaden their own minds a little too.

My parents used to be totally ignorant of everything to do with drugs just like everyone else - but I educated them about the whole thing and was honest to them about exactly what drugs I do. They are hardly delighted about it but they know I have a very successful life and I have my head screwed on - so they trust me. Many more parents need to adopt this attitude with their kids, and vice versa. These days its only an occasional thing for me, I smoke weed most weekends and the others I partake just a few times a year, special occasions mostly. Most of my friends are the same. It's unfortunate that some people can't stop there and let it get out of hand, but I think that's partly due to their lack of education on the matter.

In reality, none of these things are without some dangers. Cannabis can be habitually addictive if you are a total pot-head and smoke all day long. Realistically, in excess, it makes you lazy and aids procrastination - but those who know, who how to manage this (I don't smoke during the week). Pills have very few major documented side effects compared to others (the comedowns can be a b*tch though) but again if done too much in quantity or consistency - certainly is not going to do you any favours. Cocaine can be a very dangerous drug no doubt - but thousands do it in nightclubs around the country at the weekends without too much harm.

Rules, laws and morals are set by people who really have no clue about what its like, and I don't think that's right. We now even have a US President who in his book admitted to smoking lots of weed and doing cocaine too - maybe he will change things a little. For the record I do not think any of it should be legalised, no point really - but I think the attitude towards it has to change and get a bit more 'real'.

Sorry for the log post but I thought it was important I got my point across properly. I'm sure many of the PC brigade are going to pounce on the attack - it's very easy to poke holes in individual statements etc - I'm hoping you'll see my overall point and message. I'd also like to hear the opinions of people who maybe agree with me and give their own example and ideas.
Thanks

unreggd

theganster wrote: »

I am NOT referring to Heroin, Crack, Meth etc etc. I think there is a massive line between these - these drugs really do ruin lives.

But thats the point, the others usually lead to the latter, by pressure from dealers / peers, or want/need for a higher level of stimulation

Im shocked you rate cocaine as a recreational drug!

There is some truth in your post, re efficiency etc, but unfortunately these people are in the tiny minority

I think its extremely rare to take drugs as part of a healthy lifestyle

At the end of the day, relying on chemical control / stimulant long term is never a good idea

Ostrom

Drug use, by comparison to other forms of substance abuse (alcohol, tobacco) has had much less research attention. I'm not convinced by any attempt to justify drug use without extensive long term data.

Physical properties aside; we know comparatively less of life course patterns of drug use. Mortality statistics are useless in comparison, if no attempts are made to investigate long-term use in terms of quality of life. I agree that drug laws need serious revision, but I would imagine most of the support you get will come in the form of particular lifestyle-choice defence-with little reference to other contexts of abuse

Zombrex

theganster wrote: »

The way I look at it is that about 99% of people are probbaly able to responsibly use/enjoy recreational drugs occaisionally with no serious negative impact on their life or lifestyle.

How do you "responsibly" use cocaine?

Cocaine damages the human heart and the circulatory system. You cannot use it in a safe manner.

How much damage you do depends on a number of factors including how long you are using the drug and the amount you are taking and the stage of your heart and circulatory system. I know people who have been using cocaine recreationally for about 5 or 6 years who are no developing heart and circulatory problems.

I agree with you that this "You first line could be your last" nonsense is unhelpful as it just makes it look like the government is lying about the dangers.

But equally unhelpful is the nonsense that drugs are harmless and that you can use them in a safe manner. You can't. If you understand the risks and the dangers and wish to continue anyway go ahead. But I don't understand why people pretend it is safe?

theganster wrote: »

I started smoking weed when i was 19 - but I kind of wish I had have done it a little earlier. Weed totally chilled me out and made me more laid back and relaxed - which was definitely a good thing.

Not really, since this is an artificial state you are placing your body in.

Imagine if someone said "Man I wish I had started taking sleeping pills much earlier. I can finally get a good night sleep now" I think that would probably set a few alarm bells off. The first question would be why could they not get a good night sleep before they were taking sleeping pills, and secondly is it a good idea that they now require sleeping pills to sleep properly.

Likewise with you, why did you require an artificial depressant to "chill out" and do you now require this artificial depressant in order to be able to relax. Or to put it another way can you relax without weed? If not then that could be a problem.

theganster wrote: »

Just the overall amount of enjoyment and fun I have got from these is really quite substantial - yet I can report little or no real negative effects.

But you wouldn't know? I imagine you aren't a neurologist, nor has someone examined your brain matter. You can't report no negative effects because negative effects might not appear for days, months, years, decades after the fact.

This again highlights some of the silliness around drugs on both sides of the debate, this idea that if something doesn't kill you straight away it is harmless.

theganster wrote: »

In reality, none of these things are without some dangers. Cannabis can be habitually addictive if you are a total pot-head and smoke all day long. Realistically, in excess, it makes you lazy and aids procrastination - but those who know, who how to manage this (I don't smoke during the week). Pills have very few major documented side effects compared to others (the comedowns can be a b*tch though) but again if done too much in quantity or consistency - certainly is not going to do you any favours. Cocaine can be a very dangerous drug no doubt - but thousands do it in nightclubs around the country at the weekends without too much harm.

Define "too much harm" ... does dying of a cardiac arrest aged 40 count as "without too much harm?"

Dades

I hate stoners.

I know some people who use it a lot, and you can tell it talking them. It's like someone slowed their brain functions down by 10%. Endearing for about a minute and then just plain irritating.

That's the only reason I'd oppose the legalisation of cannabis etc. I couldn't stand the thought of a country full of stoners.

Porkpie

It doesn't make sense to me that hash is illegal and alcohol isn't. Alcohol is a drug that is highly addictive, ruins relationships, fuels violent behaviour, increases unwanted pregnancies, and is a big factor in many admissions to A&E. If alcohol was only discovered recently I can guarantee you it would be illegal. But it's been seen as a social lubricant for centuries, that it's not only accepted but encouraged, even advertised. Society's attitude to alcohol is funny - people even say 'I'm going on the piss tonight' with a jokey enthusiasm.

Studies have shown that prolonged excessive use of hash can be detrimental to the brain, but, even at that, users are only damaging themselves really. Most people that use it enjoy a sociable smoke now and again and find it calming and relaxing. It's highly (excuse pun ) unlikely that someone who is stoned will be a danger to anyone else. Would you rather walk past a gang of youngsters who were stoned or drunk?

I saw a very interesting Horizon documentary on BBC a while back on the 20 most dangerous drugs. The rating system was completely scientific and objective and based on 3 criteria - danger to yourself, others and potential for addiction. Ecstasy was 18, cannabis 11, alcohol 5!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR3gIuWYnQo&feature=related

Regardless of other drugs, I just really think it's wrong the way you can be arrested for having a lump of cannabis in your pocket.

turgon

Even though I disagree with the OP's stance on drugs I do believe some should be legal. Its someones choice if they want to do drugs, the state should not be breathing over their shoulder.

Joey the lips

op your point is interesting I agree I think your attitude boils down to live and let live. You are essentially giving an arguement in favor of drugs which is fine. But then again I dont take any drugs bar alcohol and coffee.

I know of an addiction councillor who says that the most addictive drug on the market at the moment is actually codine. Found in many tablets!

I disagree with your point that everyone should try drugs because you fail to take many things into consideration

1. Taking drugs can lead to an addiction if you have an addictive personality like drinking alchol has done. I think if we were debating the introduction of alchol we would be in the same postition now

2. Taking drugs recreationally and being able to afford it is fine. But many people take drugs to escape poverty hunger and depression. The last one is the reason there adiction usually continues.

Like you I have no doubt that this thread will turn into a "Drugs is good thread" but as it has been started as an opinion perhaps any further information on why its good or bad could be backed up.

Dades

Dades wrote: »

I hate stoners.

I know some people who use it a lot, and you can tell it talking them. It's like someone slowed their brain functions down by 10%. Endearing for about a minute and then just plain irritating.

Yes, true enough. I'm not a heavy user by any standards, and my own thought process has slowed over time. Although then again, thats also to do with age, and the lack of usage of the brain in areas outside of my profession. I can still out-think most people in Strategy games online.

That's the only reason I'd oppose the legalisation of cannabis etc. I couldn't stand the thought of a country full of stoners.

There would never be a country full of stoners. Simply because getting stoned all the time wouldn't appeal to most people. I like getting stoned now and again, but I hate being stoned for long periods of time. Most people would feel the same. Which is proved by those countries with lenient policies towards hash/grass.

There are a number of legal substances which emulate the effects of hash/grass and they're not being "abused" by a huge portion of the society. They've been on the market for quite some time, and if it was going to happen like you suggest, it would have by now. Some of these products I've found to be stronger than mainstream hash/grass. So, you wont have to worry about a country of stoners. Its not as if Ireland is a country of alcoholics, regardless of the jokes made.

I dont believe all drugs should be legalised. Thats simply dangerous.

I do however believe that hash/grass should be made legal simply because its already here, and secondly because the effects are better than getting drunk. We already have a drug in the form of alcohol which causes aggressive behavior, & depression. Stoner drugs might encourage the depression, and paranoia but they also encourage that people do these drugs from the comfort of their own homes.

There are legal alternatives out there right now for a number of illegal drugs, and they've been available for at least 8 months to a year. The country hasn't destroyed itself.

Zombrex

Porkpie wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me that hash is illegal and alcohol isn't.

Are you for legalising hash or making alcohol illegal?

Zombrex

turgon wrote: »

Even though I disagree with the OP's stance on drugs I do believe some should be legal. Its someones choice if they want to do drugs, the state should not be breathing over their shoulder.

Do you think that harm caused by drug use should not be treated by the public health care system?

theganster

There was significant research done in the US that shows legalising any drug will cost a lot more in health and social problems than they would get out of it in any form of tax etc etc. There is no point in legalising it. However, in the US if you even get caught with a relativly small mount of weed you can go to jaul. I just think this is wrong. Having an ounce of weed is illegal yes, but if it was your decidion, would you send an otherwise normal upstanding citizen to jaul for it, practically ruin the rest of his life for a drug related criminal record, thus almost forcing him towards a life of crime?

turgon

Wicknight wrote: »

Do you think that harm caused by drug use should not be treated by the public health care system?

It should be, however in a perfect world we would all have health insurance, and if the insurance company found he took drugs they could legitimately raise the premium.

theganster

theganster wrote: »

There was significant research done in the US that shows legalising any drug will cost a lot more in health and social problems than they would get out of it in any form of tax etc etc. There is no point in legalising it. However, in the US if you even get caught with a relativly small mount of weed you can go to jaul. I just think this is wrong. Having an ounce of weed is illegal yes, but if it was your decidion, would you send an otherwise normal upstanding citizen to jaul for it, practically ruin the rest of his life for a drug related criminal record, thus almost forcing him towards a life of crime?

I often wonder when people point to the US and say that they've disproven that something should be allowed. The US is different to the rest of the world. It has its own problems that are vastly different to that of other countries, and to seek comparison with Ireland or another European country is just plain silly.

Their research may have shown that it wouldn't have worked for them, but their research doesn't apply to us. For Ireland, extensive research would need to be done on Irish people, Irish culture, and Irish social problems before judging against it.

theganster

100% see your point, but this is Ireland and getting drus legalised is very highly unlikely to happen. If you want weed, its not that hard to find so its not like we Need it legalised to get better access. But maybe they should soften up on prosecuting people for possession for small amounts, its a bit of a waste of time. The Guards and the courts have far more important things to be dealing with.

Porkpie

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you for legalising hash or making alcohol illegal?

Legalising hash. I don't think it's possible nor realistic to make alcohol illegal. Look what happened in the US with prohibition, it drove it underground and fuelled crime.

Zombrex

turgon wrote: »

It should be, however in a perfect world we would all have health insurance, and if the insurance company found he took drugs they could legitimately raise the premium.

But then wouldn't he just get the treatment done on the public health service? Which brings me back to my original point, should the State have no say in you using substances that damage your body meaning you require treatment at the cost of the State?

It is all very well to say that the State should stick its nose out of what people do to their bodies, but people still turn up in hospitals expecting to be helped.

Using a non-drug example, should a person be allowed to refuse to wear a seat belt but still be treated in hospital after smashing his car into a tree and impaling himself on the steering wheel?

Zombrex

Porkpie wrote: »

Legalising hash. I don't think it's possible nor realistic to make alcohol illegal. Look what happened in the US with prohibition, it drove it underground and fuelled crime.

Ok, but if ideally you think they should both be illegal because they are harmful, why purpose does legalising hash serve?

theganster

theganster wrote: »

100% see your point, but this is Ireland and getting drus legalised is very highly unlikely to happen. If you want weed, its not that hard to find so its not like we Need it legalised to get better access. But maybe they should soften up on prosecuting people for possession for small amounts, its a bit of a waste of time. The Guards and the courts have far more important things to be dealing with.

Since I returned to Ireland, I haven't bothered to buy weed/hash. I've been buying the legalised product "smoke" which is almost the same, depending on the variety of the product. Tbh, I can't be bothered to smoke much these days since it interferes too much with my life, but thats a personal choice.

Personally, I don't find anything wrong with personal supply of grass/hash. its not as if the drug encourages violence, or theft. Its not addictive, at least not physically. Mentally addictive, sure, but then so are just about anything.

I agree that the Gardai should be focusing on more serious drugs and more serious crimes. Although grass is illegal, it doesn't pose a serious risk to society. If it needs to be kept illegal, keep it so. But make it a minor crime with fines applied to the guilty parties. At least then, the country would gain something from its presence..

As for it ever becoming legal, the no smoking ban would never have been tolerated 20 years ago. Society changes. Look at the changes in Irish society over the last 20 years, and you'll see that it has changed quite a bit. Who is to say what will change in the next 20 years?

ChocolateSauce

Dades wrote: »

I hate stoners.

I know some people who use it a lot, and you can tell it talking them. It's like someone slowed their brain functions down by 10%. Endearing for about a minute and then just plain irritating.

That's the only reason I'd oppose the legalisation of cannabis etc. I couldn't stand the thought of a country full of stoners.

I couldn't stand a country of alcoholics either. Legalisation wouldn't produce legions of abusers.

Anyway, I support the legalisation of all drugs. Of course, the more dangerous ones would be by prescription only (there are already many extremely dangerous drugs available this way). I support it for two main reasons. First and foremost, liberty. My next door neighbour has no business telling me what I can and can't put into my body, and neither does a paternalist government.

The second is that the evidence shows that legalising drugs actually reduces the amount of drugs taken. The Netherlands has one of the lowest cannabis consumptions in Europe, and in Portugal where all drugs are decriminalised, use has decreased for every drug in every social class and age group.

Coriolanus

Going by the statistics of drug use amongst Irish young people, the media personalities slamming drug use count in an increasingly small percentage of the population who've never played around with drugs.

I'm for full legalization. It'd increase the tax coffers, take massive amounts of money out of the hands of dangerous criminals and if we could manage to grow the base plants at home, give hope to an ailing farming sector.

JC 2K3

Wicknight wrote: »

Using a non-drug example, should a person be allowed to refuse to wear a seat belt but still be treated in hospital after smashing his car into a tree and impaling himself on the steering wheel?

That analogy is completely wrong.

Refusing to wear a seatbelt would be akin to using drugs irresponsibly, whereas simply drug use would be akin to driving a car.

And you don't see cars illegal because some people drive them irresponsibly.


Why do people have a warped view that all drug use is inherently harmful? Hell, even the word "drug" shouldn't be used in such a general context. There's nothing remotely similar about a lot of different drugs.

I have used various drugs over the last two decades. I'm not an expert by any means, but I have used some of the "lesser" drugs. I've been an occasional user of hash/grass since I was fourteen, I've tried speed, E a few times, and Shrooms also a few times.

During most of that time, I was fully capable of leading a normal life. I've been working since I left college both in Debt Recovery, and partial accountancy roles. I'm somewhat more successful than other people I know who have never even considered trying drugs.

The point I wish to make clear is that drugs don't necessarily ruin peoples lives. There is a rather common viewpoint that all drugs are bad, and lead to ruining their lives. This is simply not the case, and it really comes down the reasons people take the drugs, and the status of their lives. i.e. whether they have other activities.

I have had a lot more bad experiences, and committed more regrets while consuming alcohol. The only negative aspect is the effect that hash has had on my ability to recall information, which TBH hasn't really affected me too much.

I think people need to separate drugs into categories based on the effects. Throwing in the generalisation that all drugs are bad is simply retarded.

Zombrex

JC 2K3 wrote: »

That analogy is completely wrong.

Refusing to wear a seatbelt would be akin to using drugs irresponsibly, whereas simply drug use would be akin to driving a car.

Yes but I'm talking about drugs you can't use "responsibly", such as cocaine. I'm not talking about aspirin

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Why do people have a warped view that all drug use is inherently harmful?

I don't know.

I do have the view that all use of certain drugs is harmful. And I'm quite amazed at some of the people who are under the impression that their drug use is non-damaging.

For example cocaine. You cannot use cocaine without damaging your heart muscles. That doesn't mean you are going to drop dead in a night club bathroom, nor am I saying that nothing else damages your heart muscles. Lots of thing can and do.

But it is some what bewildering when you hear people say I use cocaine safely/responsible, something I heard from my friends who use the drug a lot after Katie French died.

Considering most people don't regularly monitor their health or their drug usage I don't even understand how exactly people think they are using it safely or not even if it were possible. How would you know.

I would be interested to hear a drug user, of any drug, explain how they know they are using it responsibly?

BTW, before anyone says about alcohol, the vast majority of people have false ideas of what is a safe amount of alcohol to consume in a night out. Study after study has shown that what people think is a safe/responsible amount to drink is in fact far far over the recommended limit.

You can say similar things about food

So people's ignorance on these matters isn't to do with something being illegal.

I use hash/grass responsibly... Now tell me, how I'm not... considering I can lead a normal lifestyle. Beyond the dangers of inhaling smoke, what are the risks that you see? You've chosen to look at cocaine.. what about the "lesser" drugs which are a lot more commonplace?

theganster

I find it very surprising how ecstacy is so low on that BBC study. Anyone who has done it more than a few times will know how absolutely out of your mind you can get sometimes, and how sh1t the next day can be. My thinking is that a coupe of pills now and then it no going to do you much harm, but to regularily or in very large amounts, and you're asking for problems. Then again I know groups of people who do a lot od drugs most weekends and are now in their 30's still going strong, you could not point out one suspect thing baout them or their personality or lives etc. Incredible cause I'd be in a mess after a few months of trying to keep up with them. It's down to the individuals I guess.

theganster

theganster wrote: »

I find it very surprising how ecstacy is so low on that BBC study. Anyone who has done it more than a few times will know how absolutely out of your mind you can get sometimes, and how sh1t the next day can be. My thinking is that a coupe of pills now and then it no going to do you much harm, but to regularily or in very large amounts, and you're asking for problems. Then again I know groups of people who do a lot od drugs most weekends and are now in their 30's still going strong, you could not point out one suspect thing baout them or their personality or lives etc. Incredible cause I'd be in a mess after a few months of trying to keep up with them. It's down to the individuals I guess.

Very true. I can't handle E myself. Done it a few times, but TBH I never want to do it again. Mostly down to the after affects and the amount of downtime I suffer thereafter...

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

The point I wish to make clear is that drugs don't necessarily ruin peoples lives.

True, but then you don't know it isn't going to ruin your life until it hasn't, so that isn't really much use.

If you had had a mental break due to say hash use, would you have thought it was worth it.

My issue is not the idea that all drugs will destroy your life all the time. I think that is a very unhelpful scare tactic by anti-drug campaigns to scare people into not using drugs ever. But it fails as soon as you or someone you know uses a drug and doesn't instantly drop dead.

But equally the myth that people can have control over the effects of the drug on them, and thus use them responsibly, is equally unhelpful.

Drugs don't work like that. I was on a course of legal drugs for 2 years for treatment of a stomach problem. The "responsible" way to take these drugs was to go into my GP every 2 months to have a blood test. Why? Because these drugs could kill me. And there was nothing I could do about that. The only way to see if they were going to kill me was to screen my blood and look for warning signs and take me off the drugs straight away if they were spotted

There was nothing I could do to use this drug responsibly. And there was nothing I could do to tell if this drug was harming me.

Again I don't understand what people think they mean when they say they use drugs responsibly. Do they call into your GP every few months to get blood work and brain scans?

How does one use drugs responsibly?

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

I use hash/grass responsibly... Now tell me, how I'm not... considering I can lead a normal lifestyle.

I'm not following how you think that is a test of using a drug responsible is?

Again just so you don't think I'm picking on illegal drugs, a side effect of the legal drug I was on was that it effects bone marrow. If you are not screening yourself you don't know this is happening until it is well under way.

To me the irresponsible way to take this drug would be to take it without motoring.

But using the logic above the responsible way to take this drug is that it does not, in the present, stop you from leading a normal lifestyle.

This to me would seem nuts. How is that anything to do with being responsible?

Deleted User wrote: »

Beyond the dangers of inhaling smoke, what are the risks that you see?

The risk of cannabis use would be long term mental health problems. The issue with something like that of course is that the effects do not appear instantly, so there is no feed back.

If in 10 years you suffer a strong depression, was that from the cannabis use? Who knows. Which is my point.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

True, but then you don't know it isn't going to ruin your life until it hasn't, so that isn't really much use.

Which is the case with just about everything in your life. You don't know that driving a car won't one day place you in an accident... or you don't know that entering a lift won't someday cause death..

The point is that life itself has risks. Just about everything that we choose to do, has its own inherrent risks, even if we don't consciously think about them.

If you had had a mental break due to say hash use, would you have thought it was worth it.

Depends on what you consider a mental break. I've suffered from doses of Paranoia in the past, which seemed quite real to me. In fact, Its extremely rare that I will get stoned outside of a house, simply because I've come to recognise that external environments, and aspects not under my control can create negative experiences. But you use something, and you learn to manage it. Just like riding a bike.. you have your accidents and with time you learn how to ride effectively.

My issue is not the idea that all drugs will destroy your life all the time. I think that is a very unhelpful scare tactic by anti-drug campaigns to scare people into not using drugs ever. But it fails as soon as you or someone you know uses a drug and doesn't instantly drop dead.

But equally the myth that people can have control over the effects of the drug on them, and thus use them responsibly, is equally unhelpful.

The problem with the sweeping remarks on drugs is that it negates the warnings. People just can't handle such judgements. It would be much better to make some drugs legal, and ban the rest. Give people some acceptable forms of taking substances, and make the rest unpopular. I would figure that the people i know that take drugs regularly would be more willing to focus on the legal than the illegal. As it is most of the users I know have already turned from hash/grass to the legal "smoke" that is bought in shops .

Drugs don't work like that. I was on a course of legal drugs for 2 years for treatment of a stomach problem. The "responsible" way to take these drugs was to go into my GP every 2 months to have a blood test. Why? Because these drugs could kill me. And there was nothing I could do about that. The only way to see if they were going to kill me was to screen my blood and look for warning signs and take me off the drugs straight away if they were spotted

There was nothing I could do to use this drug responsibly. And there was nothing I could do to tell if this drug was harming me.

Which is another extreme. When talking about drugs, people tend to focus on the truly harmful drugs in circulation. But there are dozens of drugs out there which are commonly used, and are not life threatening. Your example is similar to users of heroin, or other such dangerous drugs. Its not similar to users of Shrooms, Hash, etc which are probably the most popular substances in circulation in this country.

Again I don't understand what people think they mean when they say they use drugs responsibly. Do they call into your GP every few months to get blood work and brain scans?

How does one use drugs responsibly?

I look at how it affects my normal life. How it interferes with my ability to socialise with my family, friends, and strangers. I also look at how it interferes with my work, and any immediate health problems. I've avoided harder drugs because of the addictive properties, and the higher risk in terms of heart damage.

The above is a realistic evaluation of how to use drugs responsibility, and one developed through experience. Is it perfect? Hardly. but TBH if anyone was to apply a perfect system to their lives, there would be no alcohol, no suger, no butter, no exposure to car fumes, wearing a face mask in public, etc.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

The risk of cannabis use would be long term mental health problems. The issue with something like that of course is that the effects do not appear instantly, so there is no feed back.

If in 10 years you suffer a strong depression, was that from the cannabis use? Who knows. Which is my point.

There is a lot of speculation when it comes down to the long term effects of cannabis use.. A few papers on the subject, but most are discounted by other papers.

From my own personal experience, I know that short term memory loss does occur, and it has the ability to deal damage on a permanent basis. not excessive damage, but damage nonetheless. It also has the side effect of creating paranoia in some individuals, and dealing with split personalities.

The real problem with this, as with any individual is that you can't say beforehand how it will affect them. I know other users who have experienced none of the negative effects that I have experienced. I have a feeling it comes down to trauma experienced when younger, and cannabis has a tendency to place emphasis on that trauma.

I always wonder when I see people use the term "long term mental health problems".. simply because by the very nature of the term its "long term" and can easily be attributed to other experiences or stresses in peoples lives. The manner of our lives in modern society is extremely stressful to most people, and they will have their own mental health problems. I'm actually doing a course in mental health at the moment, which suggests that everyone develops these problems as a natural result of living in our modern society, even if they're not directly aware of them. Hence the reason, that depression is becoming more common in people of all ages.

Cannabis isn't a wonder drug. But I do believe that in 99% of cases, its harmless. The only real problem is that it encourages problems that people may have had prior to using the drug. But then I believe that alcohol does that also.. And that hasn't been made illegal even though it affects more than 1% of its users in a negative way.

JC 2K3

Wicknight wrote: »

Again I don't understand what people think they mean when they say they use drugs responsibly. Do they call into your GP every few months to get blood work and brain scans?

How does one use drugs responsibly?

Well, I don't see moderate, recreational drug use being necessarily exceptionally risky. An unhealthy activity? Depending on the drug, frequency and dosage, perhaps. But so risky that one would require strict monitoring by a professional? I haven't really seen any evidence to suggest that such would be necessary for any common drugs.

Most medicines don't require close monitoring of the patient. Yes, some do, but why would you extrapolate from a strong medicinal drug which could be hard on the body to all common recreational drugs?

ChocolateSauce

Wicknight wrote: »

I would be interested to hear a drug user, of any drug, explain how they know they are using it responsibly?

Well since you asked, I'll explain my experience. First, you should always know what exactly the drug does to your body and what to expect. Wikipedia and erowid.org are the best two sites for this. Erowid also tells you how much of the drug you should take to get a given effect. When actually taking the drug, I make sure I do it in the proper setting. Ie, LSD and mushrooms are a bad idea in a highly public place. When doing these drugs, I'm usually either inside in a safe place or in a very out of the way place. I make sure someone knows where I am and what I'm doing, and I don't take more than I need to.

With cannabis it is only possible to do it irresponsibly if you have something to do, like work or school. If you're out or in, it's hard to do too much, and even if you do it won't really have any lasting consequences.

With e, I don't do a lot at once, I don't drink too much or too little, if I get too hot I go cool down, and I keep my salt levels up (if required).

Finally, the obvious: Don't doing anything dangerous, like operating machinery, and the golden rule- DON'T MIX THEM. Mixing drugs can produce very bad reactions (especially in large quantities, and especially if you mix depressants with stimulants), and almost every fatality involving drugs involves poly drug use.

In short, if you believe it is possible to drink responsibly, you must accept it is possible to drug responsibly.

theganster

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Finally, the obvious: Don't doing anything dangerous, like operating machinery, and the golden rule- DON'T MIX THEM. Mixing drugs can produce very bad reactions (especially in large quantities, and especially if you mix depressants with stimulants), and almost every fatality involving drugs involves poly drug use.

You are right, but as I'm sure many of us can vouch for, mixing drugs can often be GREAT! One pill and a line of coke is a fantastic buzz. Certinaly woudn't be doing a lot of both together you will be in a mess, but a little of each has been fantastic every time I've done it.

ChocolateSauce

theganster wrote: »

You are right, but as I'm sure many of us can vouch for, mixing drugs can often be GREAT! One pill and a line of coke is a fantastic buzz. Certinaly woudn't be doing a lot of both together you will be in a mess, but a little of each has been fantastic every time I've done it.

I wouldn't know. What I do know is that the last time I mixed drugs it was a moderate amount of alcohol and a moderate amount of dope and it made me sick. I really can't condone mixing as the studies on mixing just aren't there. Even though one pill and one line of coke on their own aren't going to harm you, we don't know what mixing them does.

Zombrex

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Well since you asked, I'll explain my experience. First, you should always know what exactly the drug does to your body and what to expect. Wikipedia and erowid.org are the best two sites for this. Erowid also tells you how much of the drug you should take to get a given effect. When actually taking the drug, I make sure I do it in the proper setting. Ie, LSD and mushrooms are a bad idea in a highly public place. When doing these drugs, I'm usually either inside in a safe place or in a very out of the way place. I make sure someone knows where I am and what I'm doing, and I don't take more than I need to.

With cannabis it is only possible to do it irresponsibly if you have something to do, like work or school. If you're out or in, it's hard to do too much, and even if you do it won't really have any lasting consequences.

With e, I don't do a lot at once, I don't drink too much or too little, if I get too hot I go cool down, and I keep my salt levels up (if required).

Finally, the obvious: Don't doing anything dangerous, like operating machinery, and the golden rule- DON'T MIX THEM. Mixing drugs can produce very bad reactions (especially in large quantities, and especially if you mix depressants with stimulants), and almost every fatality involving drugs involves poly drug use.

In short, if you believe it is possible to drink responsibly, you must accept it is possible to drug responsibly.

That is more how to operate safely while under the influence of drugs, not really what I'm talking about.

I'm interested in how people know drug use is or isn't harming their body, physically, rather than making sure you don't throw yourself out a window while taking LSD.

It is interesting you meantion drink because as I said earlier most people seem to greatly misjudged the amount of long term damage drinking does to their body.

I think this again comes back to this idea that if you physically survive the period you are drinking or taking drugs, then you did alight

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

I think this again comes back to this idea that if you physically survive the period you are drinking or taking drugs, then you did alight

That's part of it, to be sure. But I think that's the case with just about any activity.. I went bungee jumping once, and was amazed that anyone would do it twice, and yet I met people who were doing it every weekend. After I got past the part of wiping the puke from my feet, I swore I wouldn't risk myself in that way again.

JC 2K3

Wicknight wrote: »

I think this again comes back to this idea that if you physically survive the period you are drinking or taking drugs, then you did alight

And did you not?

How do you know that any activity you partake in in your youth isn't going to harm you long term?

If my goal in life was to keep my body as impeccably healthy as possible, then yes, I'd avoid drugs.

But that's not what I want, and I haven't seen evidence of moderate drug use generally being heavily destructive in the long term, so there's little to dissuade me.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is the case with just about everything in your life. You don't know that driving a car won't one day place you in an accident... or you don't know that entering a lift won't someday cause death..

The point is that life itself has risks. Just about everything that we choose to do, has its own inherrent risks, even if we don't consciously think about them.

Well yes, but what is the point of pretending these risks don't exist?

Applying the logic that you use drugs responsibly if you manage to use them and not have a terrible reaction, that is like saying you drive responsibly if you don't crash. It doesn't matter if you are driving 200mph down the motorway, so long as you haven't crashed your car at that point you are being responsible.

You can see the obvious flaw in that, why do people apply it to drug use? Things don't work like that.

I would imagine that the vast majority of drug users have absolutely no idea if a drug is or is not harming them or if usage is damaging their body in small increments to the point where it may damage them.

If the only criteria you use for measuring the effect of a drug is how you feel under it and how you feel after, that isn't going to tell you anything.

And again I'm not applying this only to illegal drugs. This is become a huge issue for alcohol, doctors reporting a massive rise in liver damage in people in their 30s and 40s, perpetuated by the idea that once the hang over is gone everything is fine.

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends on what you consider a mental break. I've suffered from doses of Paranoia in the past, which seemed quite real to me. In fact, Its extremely rare that I will get stoned outside of a house, simply because I've come to recognise that external environments, and aspects not under my control can create negative experiences. But you use something, and you learn to manage it.

But without being studied by a neurologist you have very little idea of what it is doing to you, so how can you learn to manage it?

The only way you can manage it is if any damage it is doing to you is detectable by your through your own senses and you can identify it as being as a result of cannabis us. Which I imagine is not possible.

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is another extreme. When talking about drugs, people tend to focus on the truly harmful drugs in circulation. But there are dozens of drugs out there which are commonly used, and are not life threatening.

But something does not have to be life threatening to be damaging or risky.

The point of my personal story wasn't that the drug could have killed me. The point was that I would have no idea if it was damaging me. Even if it wasn't life threatening I would have had no idea if it was damaging me.

The only way for me or my doctor to know if the drug was doing anything bad to me was through a blood test.

The reason I used this example was to show the nonsense of this idea that people can self medicate themselves and understand if something is going wrong.

There are tons of legal drugs where your GP would never let you do that, because you can't. Why would illegal drugs be any different?

Deleted User wrote: »

I look at how it affects my normal life. How it interferes with my ability to socialise with my family, friends, and strangers.

What is that going to tell you?

If I looked at how taking Imuran was effecting my ability to socialise with my friends and family I would know exactly nothing about their or not it was inhibiting bone marrow growth.

Deleted User wrote: »

The above is a realistic evaluation of how to use drugs responsibility, and one developed through experience. Is it perfect? Hardly. but TBH if anyone was to apply a perfect system to their lives, there would be no alcohol, no suger, no butter, no exposure to car fumes, wearing a face mask in public, etc.

That is some what paradoxical. On the one hand you are saying you use drugs responsibly, and on the other you are saying you can't be responsible in most things but that isn't going to stop you enjoying life.

I actually would have much less of an issue if people just say "I've no f**king clue what this is doing to me, but I really enjoy taking it so f**k it I'm going to take it"

That would at least be being honest. My issue here is not drug use per say but the perception that is creeping into society in relation to legal and illegal drugs that there is a safe responsible way of doing this and you aren't going to run into trouble.

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a lot of speculation when it comes down to the long term effects of cannabis use.. A few papers on the subject, but most are discounted by other papers.

From my own personal experience, I know that short term memory loss does occur, and it has the ability to deal damage on a permanent basis. not excessive damage, but damage nonetheless. It also has the side effect of creating paranoia in some individuals, and dealing with split personalities.

That is sort of a different issue.

If your position is cannabis cannot harm me, that is fair enough. I'm not sure I agree with that, but it is a different position to saying I use drugs responsibly. If cannabis can't harm you then you don't need to use drugs responsibly.

My Brother played Hurling while in school, and by the time he left secondary school, he had lost roughly 8 front teeth, which had to be replaced by the dentist. Surely, by your reasoning, hurling should be illegal, since it places so much risk to the health of your body, considering you can't grow any more teeth past a certain point. Now what are the guarantees that my brother wouldn't have done more long term damage to his health/body if he had continued playing hurling past this point.

That is my problem with your reasoning. There are plenty of aspects of our lives from childhood right through to adulthood which have potential risks.

Zombrex

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And did you not?

Well no.

Ask a person in their 40s having a liver transplant.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

How do you know that any activity you partake in in your youth isn't going to harm you long term?

Well clinical trials help.

The position that you might get hit by a bus isn't an argument that cannabis is safe to use and will not damage your body.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

If my goal in life was to keep my body as impeccably healthy as possible, then yes, I'd avoid drugs.

But that's not what I want, and I haven't seen evidence of moderate drug use generally being heavily destructive in the long term, so there's little to dissuade me.

Again that is totally paradoxical. I don't care if cannabis is harmful life is for living and by the way I don't think cannabis is harmful.

I'm not looking for you to justify why you use drugs. I don't really care. But the excuses don't really stand up to much.

What I worry about is this rush to justify drug use by any means necessary as not actually being that bad is blinding people to actually looking after their health responsibly.

It is like we want to use it but we don't want to worry about it so we convince ourselves that we are using it properly so we don't have to worry.

Helix

unreggd wrote: »

But thats the point, the others usually lead to the latter

you seem to have misspelled can occasionally

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

My Brother played Hurling while in school, and by the time he left secondary school, he had lost roughly 8 front teeth, which had to be replaced by the dentist. Surely, by your reasoning, hurling should be illegal

I haven't mentioned anything about illegality.

I would imagine your bother wouldn't say that up until when he lost his teeth he was being very responsible in his hurling. Losing his teeth was beyond his control (I imagine), and it is simply a risk of playing the game.

If you play hurling there is a change you can have your teeth knocked out.

Now imagine if a whole lot of people started saying things like "That isn't going to happen to me, I know how to play hurling responsibly" without actually doing anything differently. Or "The only people who get their teeth knocked out are people who don't know what they are doing" Or saying "Nonsense, hurling is safe anti-hurling people just make up those risks to scare you"

You and your brother I imagine would be saying "Er, hang on, that is nonsense. There are risks involved in hurling and it would be foolish to ignore that or pretend they don't apply to you. They do. If you understand that and way to play the game anyway go ahead. But don't make nonsense up about it just to feel better"

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

Well yes, but what is the point of pretending these risks don't exist?

Applying the logic that you use drugs responsibly if you manage to use them and not have a terrible reaction, that is like saying you drive responsibly if you don't crash. It doesn't matter if you are driving 200mph down the motorway, so long as you haven't crashed your car at that point you are being responsible.

You can see the obvious flaw in that, why do people apply it to drug use? Things don't work like that.

Well, no, since to match your example a person would have to be overdosing or doing excessive amounts. I've been driving 15 years, and I've never driven past 100mph never mind about 200mph. You're not interested in talking about people doing reasonable amounts of drugs. You're focused on the extremists out there.

Also do you know the effects of excessive use of the lesser drugs on people? Too much cannabis will make you white out, and force most people to go to bed, or puke in the toilet. Its kind of impossible to overdose on it.

I would imagine that the vast majority of drug users have absolutely no idea if a drug is or is not harming them or if usage is damaging their body in small increments to the point where it may damage them.

I would say that the vast majority of people buying food/sweets have no idea what the E numbers on packaging means and whether they can harm them or not.

If the only criteria you use for measuring the effect of a drug is how you feel under it and how you feel after, that isn't going to tell you anything.

Why not? Do you know the long term effects of having a powered up mobile phone in your pocket over the space of 5 years? Will you throw away that mobile phone, and never use it again?

And again I'm not applying this only to illegal drugs. This is become a huge issue for alcohol, doctors reporting a massive rise in liver damage in people in their 30s and 40s, perpetuated by the idea that once the hang over is gone everything is fine.

Funnily enough, as a stoner, I don't actually drink much. Its extremely rare I have one pint, and a miracle that I have two.

But without being studied by a neurologist you have very little idea of what it is doing to you, so how can you learn to manage it?

You're not really listening. You're not talking about managing it. You're talking about the unseen effects over a long period of time. Thats not management of a drug. Thats fearing a possible result of usage.

The only way you can manage it is if any damage it is doing to you is detectable by your through your own senses and you can identify it as being as a result of cannabis us. Which I imagine is not possible.

So the only way is this, but you imagine its not possible?

But something does not have to be life threatening to be damaging or risky.

Of course not, eating cherries are usually fine, but god help you if you start to choke on one, when there's nobody close by to help.

The point of my personal story wasn't that the drug could have killed me. The point was that I would have no idea if it was damaging me. Even if it wasn't life threatening I would have had no idea if it was damaging me.

The only way for me or my doctor to know if the drug was doing anything bad to me was through a blood test.

The reason I used this example was to show the nonsense of this idea that people can self medicate themselves and understand if something is going wrong.

There are tons of legal drugs where your GP would never let you do that, because you can't. Why would illegal drugs be any different?

Because you're placing a blanket on all drug use, and saying its the same. There is a vast difference between using a drug that obviously can kill you, and using a drug that might, possibly, deal some damage to you in the distant future...

What is that going to tell you?

If I looked at how taking Imuran was effecting my ability to socialise with my friends and family I would know exactly nothing about their or not it was inhibiting bone marrow growth.

:rolleyes: You're missing the point completely. You're mixing up what responsibly managing a drug is, and being afraid of the possible damage to your body.

That is some what paradoxical. On the one hand you are saying you use drugs responsibly, and on the other you are saying you can't be responsible in most things but that isn't going to stop you enjoying life.

No. I'm saying that everything in life poses some risk to you. You can only look to gauge the risk to you, and decide for yourself whether the risk outweighs the pleasure.

I actually would have much less of an issue if people just say "I've no f**king clue what this is doing to me, but I really enjoy taking it so f**k it I'm going to take it"

Somehow I doubt that considering what you have written above. They would still be in the wrong, because you're concerned with the possible unseen damage they're doing to themselves.

That would at least be being honest. My issue here is not drug use per say but the perception that is creeping into society in relation to legal and illegal drugs that there is a safe responsible way of doing this and you aren't going to run into trouble.

Seriously... Huh?

That is sort of a different issue.

If your position is cannabis cannot harm me, that is fair enough. I'm not sure I agree with that, but it is a different position to saying I use drugs responsibly. If cannabis can't harm you then you don't need to use drugs responsibly.

You really don't understand, do you? Have you ever done anything enjoyable, that contained some measure of risk to yourself?

JC 2K3

Wicknight wrote: »

Well clinical trials help.

But they don't do clinical trials to determine whether anything is safe or not before making said activity legal. And by comparison to almost any other activity, recreational drug use has a hell of a lot more research and clinical trials behind it.

Alcohol is one of the ones which has been show to be particularly unhealthy if overdone. I accept that. This does not mean that all drugs will necessarily be as harmful. MDMA for example, has been shown to be particularly safe by reputable medical scientists.

Wicknight wrote: »

What I worry about is this rush to justify drug use by any means necessary as not actually being that bad is blinding people to actually looking after their health responsibly.

Well, if someone is saying from an absolute standpoint that none of the drug use they partake in is in any way harmful, then you're right, that is short sighted and incorrect.

But there is somewhat of a backlash against the opposite standpoint, that is that all drug use is inherently bad and destructive, which is the position which has been held by almost all major governments for years.

Wicknight wrote: »

It is like we want to use it but we don't want to worry about it so we convince ourselves that we are using it properly so we don't have to worry.

You could apply that to, say, bungee jumping, skydiving, boxing etc.

Strictly speaking, using safety equipment, following procedures etc. will (greatly?) minimise harm, but there's no way of absolutely knowing that said activity will harm you or not.

My question is why do you single out drug use?

EDIT: Ignore any comments I've made relating to legality, since I don't think that's what you want to discuss. I'd be interested in you answer to my above question, however.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Dades wrote: »

I hate stoners.

I know some people who use it a lot, and you can tell it talking them. It's like someone slowed their brain functions down by 10%. Endearing for about a minute and then just plain irritating.

That's the only reason I'd oppose the legalisation of cannabis etc. I couldn't stand the thought of a country full of stoners.

You know people who use it a lot. Therefore, those people are idiots. And remember, its not the drug, its themselves. Im assuming your one of those people who would say 'oh that fella, drugs ****ed him up' whereas in reality, he ****ed himself up.

Of course drug taking alters bodily functions, isnt that the basic definition of the world drug. I dont understand why you oppose the decriminalisation / legalisation etc, surely your not going to smoke, so what business is it of yours?

A country full of smokers?

Holland, Belgium, Canada, Australia (certain states), all countries with high tolerance.

The usage levels among citizens in those places dont support your typically narrow minded views now do they? Anyone I know, including myself, who visited Amsterdam, have barely smoked since.

_

theganster wrote: »

It really amazes me how often I hear people talking about drugs in a massively naive and ignorant manner. It's 2009 and the old wives tail of 'take drugs and your life is over' is still very much alive - usually shouted about by people who really have no experience or idea or what any of it is like at all. I think it's time a lot of people woke up and took a good look at the reality of things today.

What many people don't realise is just how prominent drugs are in our society (the world, not just Ireland) - and there stereotype of 'drugs are for loosers' is simply not true. The fact is that a huge amount of people in all walks of life, who have very successful lives in any persons book - regularily do recreational drugs without any real negative impact on their lives. Now obviously, I am taking about 'Recreational Drugs' here - Hash/Weed & Ecstasy mainly (and to a certain extent Cocaine) which are the most used drugs in popular society. I am NOT referring to Heroin, Crack, Meth etc etc. I think there is a massive line between these - these drugs really do ruin lives.

The way I look at it is that about 99% of people are probbaly able to responsibly use/enjoy recreational drugs occaisionally with no serious negative impact on their life or lifestyle. Yes, there is always the very small % of people who's personalties dictate that they cannot handle such substances and get carried away and possibly develop a problem - but this goes for anything really - I'm sure the % is much higher for Alcohol - which in fact causes and creates far more social and health problems than weed or pills.

Personally, I think drugs have had a very beneficial impact on my life - I know this might sound like a ridiculous shocking statement to many, but I'm sure very many people would have the same opinion. I'm in my late 20's now - I started smoking weed when i was 19 - but I kind of wish I had have done it a little earlier. Weed totally chilled me out and made me more laid back and relaxed - which was definitely a good thing. Personally, although I've done cocaine many times, I've never really got that much out of it - its fun to do a line now and then but for me I'm just not bothered. However, When I started taking ecstasy, it was an amazing thing and a milestone in my life. It is an incredibly special feeling and to do a few pills with your friends when you are all on the same level - is truly is one of the most incredible experiences to be had in this world. Just the overall amount of enjoyment and fun I have got from these is really quite substantial - yet I can report little or no real negative effects.

I respect people who are just not into drugs and would never try to persuade them otherwise, however I really feel sorry for anyone who will never try it in their lives and miss out on this experience. It would be like living your whole life and never having had sex, and in a way its a shame so many people pass on it due to some naive views on what will happen if they ever take drugs - thinking that one pill they'll turn into a junkie. They really don't call them "Mind Expanding Drugs" for no reason - and I really think they do broaden the mind. I think many people are far too narrow minded and could do to broaden their own minds a little too.

My parents used to be totally ignorant of everything to do with drugs just like everyone else - but I educated them about the whole thing and was honest to them about exactly what drugs I do. They are hardly delighted about it but they know I have a very successful life and I have my head screwed on - so they trust me. Many more parents need to adopt this attitude with their kids, and vice versa. These days its only an occasional thing for me, I smoke weed most weekends and the others I partake just a few times a year, special occasions mostly. Most of my friends are the same. It's unfortunate that some people can't stop there and let it get out of hand, but I think that's partly due to their lack of education on the matter.

In reality, none of these things are without some dangers. Cannabis can be habitually addictive if you are a total pot-head and smoke all day long. Realistically, in excess, it makes you lazy and aids procrastination - but those who know, who how to manage this (I don't smoke during the week). Pills have very few major documented side effects compared to others (the comedowns can be a b*tch though) but again if done too much in quantity or consistency - certainly is not going to do you any favours. Cocaine can be a very dangerous drug no doubt - but thousands do it in nightclubs around the country at the weekends without too much harm.

Rules, laws and morals are set by people who really have no clue about what its like, and I don't think that's right. We now even have a US President who in his book admitted to smoking lots of weed and doing cocaine too - maybe he will change things a little. For the record I do not think any of it should be legalised, no point really - but I think the attitude towards it has to change and get a bit more 'real'.

Sorry for the log post but I thought it was important I got my point across properly. I'm sure many of the PC brigade are going to pounce on the attack - it's very easy to poke holes in individual statements etc - I'm hoping you'll see my overall point and message. I'd also like to hear the opinions of people who maybe agree with me and give their own example and ideas.
Thanks

TL;Dr

Stoned student at a guess.

Are slugs just snails without houses?

ChocolateSauce

Wicknight wrote: »

That is more how to operate safely while under the influence of drugs, not really what I'm talking about.

I'm interested in how people know drug use is or isn't harming their body, physically, rather than making sure you don't throw yourself out a window while taking LSD.

No drug is totally harmless, but I am aware and accept the risks (and the certainties) of the drugs I take. I accept the risk when I drink 5 pints of alcohol (not pure of course!), just the same as I accept the risk when I take a pill. Generally, my research has led me to conclude that the drugs I condone (Dope, e, mushrooms, LSD, alcohol) are only dangerous in large quantities or when mixing. You wouldn't throw yourself off a building when drunk, and you wouldn't do it on drugs. Also, the number of people who hurt themselves on LSD is vastly lower than the number that do so on alcohol, even when you take into account the fact that more people do alcohol.

It is interesting you meantion drink because as I said earlier most people seem to greatly misjudged the amount of long term damage drinking does to their body.

I think this again comes back to this idea that if you physically survive the period you are drinking or taking drugs, then you did alight

I mention drink because it is foolish to exclude it from a list of powerful mind altering substances. If it was discovered today, it would be a class A drug. It has a much narrower region between the minimum effective dose and the fatal dose that all the above mentioned drugs, it is the only powerful sedative/depressant in the group, so while on a lot of e your senses are razor sharp but on alcohol you become slow and uncoordinated, and generally people drink more than they would drug. A rule of thumb is that 1 pill is equivalent to one drink- doing six over the course of a night is probably as much as anyone should do, and 12 with make you very, very un-sober. But you could probably take over 20 pills before seriously endangering your health, whereas 20 pints would kill most people. Alcohol also makes people aggressive, something the others do not. Indeed, e was once used by marriage counselor to heal relationships because of the profound effects of empathy a large amount produces. I also don't think anyone could accuse even cannabis abusers of being anything worse than layabouts.

Regarding the others, you'd need to eat more than a dozenl kilos of mushrooms before you put your physical health at risk (and it's hard enough to eat 50g- they're disgusting!), LSD is clinically the safest drug in the world, needing around 100,000 times the recommended does to harm your body, and they say that the lethal does of dope is a 2 kilo brick of it dropped on your head from a 12 storey building. In short, alcohol is the most dangerous and the most destructive drug in the above list by quite an impressive margin. It's ill effects on both the body, mind and on families and society is the stuff of legend, and I find that people, though no fault of their own (for they were raised in a society that thinks this way), are usually both ignorant and hypocritical when they have no problem with alcohol but do with certain other drugs which are less powerful and less harmful. No one begrudges a moderate and mature drinker, so I don't see how they begrudge a moderate and mature smoker/raver/tripper.

Applying the logic that you use drugs responsibly if you manage to use them and not have a terrible reaction, that is like saying you drive responsibly if you don't crash. It doesn't matter if you are driving 200mph down the motorway, so long as you haven't crashed your car at that point you are being responsible.

People have terrible reactions to nuts and pollen too. Obviously some people just shouldn't touch them, just like some people just shouldn't touch the demon drink. Also, I'm not sure I'd consider anyone driving at 200kmph in any state of mind to be responsible. If they don't crash they're just lucky and should be arrested.

I would imagine that the vast majority of drug users have absolutely no idea if a drug is or is not harming them or if usage is damaging their body in small increments to the point where it may damage them.

If the only criteria you use for measuring the effect of a drug is how you feel under it and how you feel after, that isn't going to tell you anything.

That's what scientific studies are for. A recently published study of over 100,000 ecstasy users has showed that there is "no clinically significant ill effects with moderate use", and a later report in Britain, relying on this powerful evidence, suggested that pills be downgraded to a class C drug (the politically motivated government of course decided to ignore the evidence and proceed on the feelings in their guts). This is how I know pills are having no unexpected on my body. The same is true of the other drugs up there (a brief note- there is some evidence to suggest that heavy cannabis use can lead to an increased risk of mental problems, but only in people who are genetically predisposed to such problems and have a family history of it. Again, some people probably shouldn't do certain things).

I actually would have much less of an issue if people just say "I've no f**king clue what this is doing to me, but I really enjoy taking it so f**k it I'm going to take it"

That's funny, I feel the opposite. I have a big problem with people doing that. If they don't know what to expect, they could be overwhelmed by the effects, and the effects themselves might be bad in the case of more exotic prescription drugs. They're putting themselves and others at risk by taking something they are ignorant of. I have an ex-girlfriend who took over 20 pills at a party on her first time doing them (my first time one did me for 12 hours), on top of a lot of vodka, because she thought it would be cool. She had no idea what the hell she was doing and her heart stopped. She survived, but her stupidity and recklessness (fueled by alcohol, which affects judgment) almost got her killed- the same kind of stupidity you mentioned above.

_ wrote:

TL;Dr

Stoned student at a guess.

Are slugs just snails without houses?

Do you really think a stoned student could write something so clear and concise? If I use boards when I'm stoned I often misread threads and start arguing points that hadn't been made, and wind up having top either retract what I said or furiously edit a post!

ChocolateSauce, excellent post!

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

ChocolateSauce, excellent post!

Thanks. I like to sometimes be more than a one-trick horse.:pac:

Theganzster- Don't see a bit of a logic loop in promoting drugs and then saying they're better off illegal?