Munster squad 09/10

buck65

Horan, Flannery, Hayes, Buckley, DOC, POC, Wallace, Quinlan, Leamy, Ryan, MOD, Darragh Hurley, O Boyle, D Williams, N Williams, Fogarty, Ronan, O Leary, Stringer, Morland (temp), O Gara, Warwick, Dowling, Earls, Mafi, Howlett, Murphy, Denis Hurley, Jones, Manning.
De Villiers?!
Varley
Missing anyone?

Definitely a bit light on props, fairly well covered otherwise.

Crash

Could be a tiny bit light on second rows during the international window, depending on bench choices tbh. Though probably won't be an issue.

thomond2006

link to squad??

thomond2006

buck65 wrote: »

Horan, Flannery, Hayes, Buckley, DOC, POC, Wallace, Quinlan, Leamy, Ryan, MOD, Darragh Hurley, O Boyle, D Williams, N Williams, Fogarty, Ronan, O Leary, Stringer, Morland (temp), O Gara, Warwick, Dowling, Earls, Mafi, Howlett, Murphy, Denis Hurley, Jones, Manning.
De Villiers?!

Missing anyone?

Definitely a bit light on props, fairly well covered otherwise.

Light in the second row, as Crash said, also hookers, when Fla is away for Ireland, only Denis Fogarty remains.

Is that the actual squad btw?

buck65

thomond2006 wrote: »

link to squad??

Came up with this myself, hasn't been finalised yet I'd say

Crash

Damien Varley's coming back to Munster isn't he? thats Fogarty and himself at 2.

thomond2006

Crash wrote: »

Damien Varley's coming back to Munster isn't he? thats Fogarty and himself at 2.

Thanks. forgot that.

[Jackass]

I presume JDV isn't confirmed yet?

Good squad though.

jimboddb

Billy Holland has a full contract this year

Amazotheamazing

Tom Gleeson is getting a full contract, O'Donnell is getting a development contract.

Can't say I'm too worried about second rows or props, we can take players from the AIL as it suits us.

Amazotheamazing

Crash wrote: »

Could be a tiny bit light on second rows during the international window, depending on bench choices tbh. Though probably won't be an issue.

We've two good second rows in the Academy, as well as the option of playing either Quinlan or Holland there if needs must.

Diom

buck65 wrote: »

Horan, Flannery, Hayes, Buckley, DOC, POC, Wallace, Quinlan, Leamy, Ryan, MOD, Darragh Hurley, O Boyle, D Williams, N Williams, Fogarty, Ronan, O Leary, Stringer, Morland (temp), O Gara, Warwick, Dowling, Earls, Mafi, Howlett, Murphy, Denis Hurley, Jones, Manning.
De Villiers?!
Varley

The Connacht budget X2

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Tom Gleeson is getting a full contract, O'Donnell is getting a development contract.

Can't say I'm too worried about second rows or props, we can take players from the AIL as it suits us.

If Horan or Hayes gets injured you're in trouble.

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

If Horan or Hayes gets injured you're in trouble.

Buckley was the best TH prop on show for Ireland in the US tour and Churchill Cup, Darragh Hurley is a talented guy, low on gametime and coming off an injury, but he could step up. After that, we could recall guys like McGovern etc.

buck65

Doesn't really inspire much confidence, would love to see the likes of Hurley develop this year throught the league but you would fear for him or a rookie in the HCup. Maybe next year, would be a big boost if we could bring through a few props over the next season through the ranks rather than importing.

Risteard

buck65 wrote: »

Doesn't really inspire much confidence, would love to see the likes of Hurley develop this year throught the league but you would fear for him or a rookie in the HCup. Maybe next year, would be a big boost if we could bring through a few props over the next season through the ranks rather than importing.

Hurley already has at least one cap in the Heineken cup and coming off the bench against Cardiff a couple of years ago and played pretty well considering the conditions. I know that doesn't equate to a wealthful of experience but he looks a good prospect when not injured.

chupacabra

Throw Holland, O'Mahony, O'Donnell and maybe Conor Burke in there and thats probably the squad.

Amazotheamazing

chupacabra wrote: »

Throw Holland, O'Mahony, O'Donnell and maybe Conor Burke in there and thats probably the squad.

Andrew Burke? I doubt Conor will be making a comeback for Munster, he must be pushing on now.

Burke and O'Mahony might be involved in extended squads etc, but I doubt either will see much action outside of the new A league, both are still pretty young.

d'Oracle

How is Patrick O'Regan coming along?

chupacabra

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Andrew Burke? I doubt Conor will be making a comeback for Munster, he must be pushing on now.

Burke and O'Mahony might be involved in extended squads etc, but I doubt either will see much action outside of the new A league, both are still pretty young.

Aye, yes. Sorry i meant Connor Murray... for some reason i continue to mix up Andrew Burke and Connor Murray

Amazotheamazing

d'Oracle wrote: »

How is Patrick O'Regan coming along?

Just joined the Academy, had a run out with the Munster A squad last year. Doubt he'll get senior time this year.

d'Oracle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Just joined the Academy, had a run out with the Munster A squad last year. Doubt he'll get senior time this year.

Good.
Props need to grow.

Have you seen him play?
He is related to the missus somehow....

Amazotheamazing

d'Oracle wrote: »

Good.
Props need to grow.

Have you seen him play?
He is related to the missus somehow....

Saw him play against a Russian side out in Nenagh for Munster A, he was pretty good on the night, but haven't seen anything else out of him. He must have some talent to come through the youths system from Tralee and into the Academy though.

Size=everything

How come he isn't on any of the Irish development sides?

chupacabra

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He must have some talent to come through the youths system from Tralee and into the Academy though.

Is that a little jab at Tralee? We may not have many world class players but we do ok.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

How come he isn't on any of the Irish development sides?

Not that unusual, he's already 20 or 21, coming through the youths system as opposed to the schools means he was always going to have some catching up to do, you're too hung up on underage squads, imo. Did John Hayes or Mike Ross make many underage sides?

Amazotheamazing

chupacabra wrote: »

Is that a little jab at Tralee? We may not have many world class players but we do ok.

Not at all, I've loads of time for the work done by Tralee RFC, but the fact remains, if you're from Tralee it's harder to get recognition than it would be if you played for an established school. Interestingly, there was two Tralee players added to the Academy this year, O'Regan and a guy called Barnes.

It's actually amazing how many players are coming from the youths system at the minute.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not that unusual, he's already 20 or 21, coming through the youths system as opposed to the schools means he was always going to have some catching up to do, you're too hung up on underage squads, imo. Did John Hayes or Mike Ross make many underage sides?

In todays era your going to be hard pressed to find a top level player who hasn't been involved in the international set up at youth level. Name a top level player under 25 who hasn't come from the youth set up?

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

In todays era your going to be hard pressed to find a top level player who hasn't been involved in the international set up at youth level. Name a top level player under 25 who hasn't come from the youth set up?

When I use the phrase "youth" I mean it in the way the Munster set-up means it. The Youths are players from outside the schools set-up. In the academy, guys like O'Regan, Foley, Grace and O'Donnell are players who didn't go to an established school but played for the Munster youths team. Afaik, there's a similar set-up in the other provinces.

For example, in the Munster Academy this year, three players were added, Mike Sherry who came through the school system, and Barnes and O'Regan who came through the Youth system.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

When I use the phrase "youth" I mean it in the way the Munster set-up means it. The Youths are players from outside the schools set-up. In the academy, guys like O'Regan, Foley, Grace and O'Donnell are players who didn't go to an established school but played for the Munster youths team. Afaik, there's a similar set-up in the other provinces.

For example, in the Munster Academy this year, three players were added, Mike Sherry who came through the school system, and Barnes and O'Regan who came through the Youth system.

Still doesn't really explain why they aren't in the Irish set up though if they are indeed good enough...

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

Still doesn't really explain why they aren't in the Irish set up though if they are indeed good enough...

Being the best player in Ireland at u-20 doesn't mean you will be the best player when you leave the age grade.

I don't want to make an example of O'Regan, because who know's how his career will go, but look at players like J. Murphy and Dowling. Neither got much of a look-in with the Leinster underage set-up, but 5 or so years down the line, most of the guys who we considered better prospects have drifted off into the AIL or wherever, while both of those guys are in the extended Irish squad.

David Gannon captained the Irish u-20's to a RWC final, now he's off playing part-time in New Zealand. Jeez, Des Dillon was incredible underage, now he's playing AIL without ever showing even a small bit of what he was expected to do.

You just can't predict how a player will do based on his underage career. The only rugby that counts is senior rugby, and I guess O'Regan has been his stuff week-in week-out in the AIL to impress people. Same with Sherry, first choice hooker for Garryowen and just turning 21, but he was dropped out of the underage squads, iirc.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Being the best player in Ireland at u-20 doesn't mean you will be the best player when you leave the age grade.

No but it does mean you are more likely to go on to international level than someone who wasn't. Name one international player even under 30 who wasn't involved in the Irish youth set up.

I don't want to make an example of O'Regan, because who know's how his career will go, but look at players like J. Murphy and Dowling. Neither got much of a look-in with the Leinster underage set-up, but 5 or so years down the line, most of the guys who we considered better prospects have drifted off into the AIL or wherever, while both of those guys are in the extended Irish squad.

And its highly likely those players will only ever be ML players. Meanwhile a player the same age as Dowling and involved in the Irish set up is a regular starter and Lion (Tommy Bowe) Coincidence?

David Gannon captained the Irish u-20's to a RWC final, now he's off playing part-time in New Zealand. Jeez, Des Dillon was incredible underage, now he's playing AIL without ever showing even a small bit of what he was expected to do.

Being a captain doesn't mean your the best player Leo Cullen is the captain of the best team in Europe and can't even make the Irish squad for example.

You just can't predict how a player will do based on his underage career. The only rugby that counts is senior rugby, and I guess O'Regan has been his stuff week-in week-out in the AIL to impress people. Same with Sherry, first choice hooker for Garryowen and just turning 21, but he was dropped out of the underage squads, iirc.

Yes but you can based on evidence assume that a player deemed good enough to play for Ireland Under 20s has more of a chance than a player who is deemed not good enough and not picked. Once again I ask name one international under 30 who hasn't been involved with the Irish youth set up

d'Oracle

Im wondering if you stuck the under 30 bit because there are a couple current International player who is just 30 who didnt play underage for Ireland?

Either way, when you say "name one player under 30 who has not underage...." its totally irrelevant.
Its called reductive logic, suggesting that that there is a connection by taking the end state (in this case a deeply flawed perception of the end state) and ignoring the intervening circumstances.

Two years ago, your argument would have been muck.

Whats more, its highly likely that ANY player who is not good enough is going to become a ML player. How many former age grade international players are ML players? I'm willing to bet a LOT more than non age grade internationals.

Why even distinguish the point about Gannon being captain, surely its more important that he looked a VERY good player at the time.
That he is captain and wether or not that makes him a better player is surplus to the conversation. Making a point of it is silly and petty.


Oh and Tom Court.

Size=everything

d'Oracle wrote: »

Im wondering if you stuck the under 30 bit because there are a couple current International player who is just 30 who didnt play underage for Ireland?

Either way, when you say "name one player under 30 who has not underage...." its totally irrelevant.
Its called reductive logic, suggesting that that there is a connection by taking the end state (in this case a deeply flawed perception of the end state) and ignoring the intervening circumstances.

Two years ago, your arguement would have been muck.




Oh and Tom Court.

under 30 was just a rounded number I came to under the professional era of today. Anyways this is going O/T so I'll stop.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

No but it does mean you are more likely to go on to international level than someone who wasn't. Name one international player even under 30 who wasn't involved in the Irish youth set up.




And its highly likely those players will only ever be ML players. Meanwhile a player the same age as Dowling and involved in the Irish set up is a regular starter and Lion (Tommy Bowe) Coincidence?



Being a captain doesn't mean your the best player Leo Cullen is the captain of the best team in Europe and can't even make the Irish squad for example.



Yes but you can based on evidence assume that a player deemed good enough to play for Ireland Under 20s has more of a chance than a player who is deemed not good enough and not picked. Once again I ask name one international under 30 who hasn't been involved with the Irish youth set up

Mike Ross.

The comparison between Bowe and Dowling is an odd one, seeing as they came up through different provinces. Who were the wingers who kept Dowling out of the Leinster set-up, or does anyone even remember the guys who have since disappeared off the radar?

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Mike Ross.

The comparison between Bowe and Dowling is an odd one, seeing as they came up through different provinces. Who were the wingers who kept Dowling out of the Leinster set-up, or does anyone even remember the guys who have since disappeared off the radar?

Mike Ross who isn't even an international player compared to well over 30 players who have played for the Irish youth squads and have a rake of international caps..... Yes I can see I am wrong in my statement that is highly likely that those who play for the Irish youth go on to have international careers and those who don't are very unlikely... :rolleyes:

You used Dowling as an example of players his age who didn't come through the youth set up that are still playing I countered that by saying Bowe is the same age, played for the Irish youth teams and quess what? Is an international regular and Lions regular. I don't know where the other winger went perhaps injured, perhaps wanted to follow a different career who knows but how can you seriously argue that
players who come from the Irish youth squads are far, far more likely to go on to play at international level than those who don't when the only example is Mike Ross and Dowling (both who haven't even had any notable international career) compared to well over 30 players who have played regularly....



Now I have already said this is dragging the thread O/T if you wan't to continue your ridiculous argument that flies in the face of the facts sitting right in front you (just look at the Irish current squad) then you can PM me.

Depp

dont think dowling ever played for leinster, wudda been shaggy and hickie if he did

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

Mike Ross who isn't even an international player compared to well over 30 players who have played for the Irish youth squads and have a rake of international caps..... Yes I can see I am wrong in my statement that is highly likely that those who play for the Irish youth go on to have international careers and those who don't are very unlikely... :rolleyes:

You used Dowling as an example of players his age who didn't come through the youth set up that are still playing I countered that by saying Bowe is the same age, played for the Irish youth teams and quess what? Is an international regular and Lions regular. I don't know where the other winger went perhaps injured, perhaps wanted to follow a different career who knows but how can you seriously argue that
players who come from the Irish youth squads are far, far more likely to go on to play at international level than those who don't when the only example is Mike Ross and Dowling (both who haven't even had any notable international career) compared to well over 30 players who have played regularly....



Now I have already said this is dragging the thread O/T if you wan't to continue your ridiculous argument that flies in the face of the facts sitting right in front you (just look at the Irish current squad) then you can PM me.

Mike Ross has two Irish caps....

My point isn't that players don't come through from underage squads, just that very few of them make it to the top level, and that if a guy comes through the youth (not schools) system, and proceeds to do his stuff in the AIL, then it doesn't matter what he did or didn't do underage.

There was more than one other winger the same age as Dowling in Ireland, the fact is the 6 or 7 guys who were rated better than Dowling in Leinster never made it, while he went off and made his career through hard graft in the AIL.

Btw, stop using the phrase "youth" incorrectly, it means a specific set of underage players who did not play for one of the A schools. It is not a catch-all phrase for Irish underage players.

Amazotheamazing

Depp wrote: »

dont think dowling ever played for leinster, wudda been shaggy and hickie if he did

Dowling's 26, Hickie and Shaggy wouldn't have been in the same underage teams as him (or each other).

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Mike Ross has two Irish caps....

My point isn't that players don't come through from underage squads, just that very few of them make it to the top level, and that if a guy comes through the youth (not schools) system, and proceeds to do his stuff in the AIL, then it doesn't matter what he did or didn't do underage.

There was more than one other winger the same age as Dowling in Ireland, the fact is the 6 or 7 guys who were rated better than Dowling in Leinster never made it, while he went off and made his career through hard graft in the AIL.

If very few come from the youth set up then next to none come from outside it. Look at all the Irish players under 30 only two of them have come from outside the Irish youth (and Dowling and Ross have barely got caps in mickey mouse games) So how you can say that I am wrong in saying if your not in the Irish youth set up you are VERY unlikely to come through then I really don't know. 99% of the Irish squad came from the youth set up.

Once again you insist on dragging the thread O/T rather than PMing me by the way.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling's 26, Hickie and Shaggy wouldn't have been in the same underage teams as him (or each other).

There were 3 wingers on the U21 team, Bowe, Tomas O'Leary (started as winger) and Richard Lane.

Bowe became an Irish regular and Lion
Tomas O'Leary became an Irish regular and Lion
Richard Lane was playing excellent in the AIL for Cork Con in the 2006 season when he would've been about 23 then drifted off perhaps injured?

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

If very few come from the youth set up then next to none come from outside it. Look at all the Irish players under 30 only two of them have come from outside the Irish youth (and Dowling and Ross have barely got caps in mickey mouse games) So how you can say that I am wrong in saying if your not in the Irish youth set up you are VERY unlikely to come through then I really don't know. 99% of the Irish squad came from the youth set up.

Once again you insist on dragging the thread O/T rather than PMing me by the way.

There is a distinction you don't seem to grasp about what "youth" means, it means players from outside of the A schools.

For example, Barnes from Tralee played for the Munster youth team, got spotted by one of the A schools, repeated sixth year in an A school and is now in the Irish u-20 team.

Only one part of that underage career is classed as youth rugby.

Another example of a youth player for Ireland is Donnacha Ryan, played for Nenagh, played for Munster youths, got spotted by an A school, played for them for sixth year, and into the Irish u-21 team and Munster Academy from there.

My original point was that a lot of good prospects in Munster came from the youth system (I hope you've grasped the meaning of that now).

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

There were 3 wingers on the U21 team, Bowe, Tomas O'Leary (started as winger) and Richard Lane.

Bowe became an Irish regular and Lion
Tomas O'Leary became an Irish regular and Lion
Richard Lane was playing excellent in the AIL for Cork Con in the 2006 season when he would've been about 23 then drifted off perhaps injured?

And none of them are from Leinster? I'm not asking about Irish teams, I'm pointing out that even within Leinster there were players considered better prospects than Dowling, but by hard work he made it whereas the better underage prospects didn't.

Lane is still playing well for Con btw, should have gone overseas.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

There is a distinction you don't seem to grasp about what "youth" means, it means players from outside of the A schools.

For example, Barnes from Tralee played for the Munster youth team, got spotted by one of the A schools, repeated sixth year in an A school and is now in the Irish u-20 team.

Only one part of that underage career is classed as youth rugby.

Another example of a youth player for Ireland is Donnacha Ryan, played for Nenagh, played for Munster youths, got spotted by an A school, played for them for sixth year, and into the Irish u-21 team and Munster Academy from there.

My original point was that a lot of good prospects in Munster came from the youth system (I hope you've grasped the meaning of that now).

Your wrong but as I have already said you are dragging this thread completely off topic so I'm not going to bother replying. Once again you can PM me if you want to continue rather than completely taking this discussion off topic. I reckon you just want to get the last word though so I'll stop here for the benefit of the thread at hand.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And none of them are from Leinster? I'm not asking about Irish teams, I'm pointing out that even within Leinster there were players considered better prospects than Dowling, but by hard work he made it whereas the better underage prospects didn't.

Lane is still playing well for Con btw, should have gone overseas.

They probably would of made it if they had the opportunities Dowling had at Munster lets not forget that the guys at Leinster had to contend with Hickie and Horgan and besides no Leinster wingers were in the Irish under 21s of Dowling's era anyway so really don't get your point my point is that Bowe and O'Leary were and quess what? They made it along with 99% of the other internationals.

I'm finished with this now, read above post by me cheers.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

Your wrong

If I'm wrong, why does every province have separate schools and youths teams?

For example, here is a link to Munster's current youth team, none of them play for an A school, but I bet a few will next season.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/8825.php

thomond2006

Hi all.

I'm looking for a thread about the Munster squad for the coming season.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Hi all.

I'm looking for a thread about the Munster squad for the coming season.

There's one knocking around here somewhere.

My opinion of Munster next year is they're going to be obviously strong again but I really don't think signing a centre is the best use of resources. Munster's success over the years has always been based on a pack that would take on and dominate the opposition, and they're losing that imo and not doing anything to rememdy the situation. Again this is all my opinion but the Munster backrow is nowhere near as good as it has been in the past and (don't shoot me) John Hayes has to stop at some stage, and I don't think Buckley is in his class as a player. I think a prop or a backrow would have been a much more prudent signing.

Amazotheamazing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Hi all.

I'm looking for a thread about the Munster squad for the coming season.

And in a way it's connected.

O'Donnell on a development contract is from the youths. I expect we'll see Foley at some point and hopefully Grace too, all youth players.

Size=everything

danthefan wrote: »

There's one knocking around here somewhere.

My opinion of Munster next year is they're going to be obviously strong again but I really don't think signing a centre is the best use of resources. Munster's success over the years has always been based on a pack that would take on and dominate the opposition, and they're losing that imo and not doing anything to rememdy the situation. Again this is all my opinion but the Munster backrow is nowhere near as good as it has been in the past and (don't shoot me) John Hayes has to stop at some stage, and I don't think Buckley is in his class as a player. I think a prop or a backrow would have been a much more prudent signing.

With Peter O'Mahony soon to break through and Billy Holland don't really think a backrow is needed although perhaps someone like Neil Best for a season or two would be very useful in the mean time?

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

There's one knocking around here somewhere.

My opinion of Munster next year is they're going to be obviously strong again but I really don't think signing a centre is the best use of resources. Munster's success over the years has always been based on a pack that would take on and dominate the opposition, and they're losing that imo and not doing anything to rememdy the situation. Again this is all my opinion but the Munster backrow is nowhere near as good as it has been in the past and (don't shoot me) John Hayes has to stop at some stage, and I don't think Buckley is in his class as a player. I think a prop or a backrow would have been a much more prudent signing.

Had you heard of Flannery before he broke through after Sheahan's injury?

I see guys like Daragh Hurley in the same boat, stuck biding their time in the AIL, same with Donnacha Ryan to a degree.