Split routines effective?

Mr.Blue

Hi,

I'm new to weight lifting and only recently started (made a few posts already). So far I have done 3 days of dumbbell training and the routines have consisted of full body workouts (with 1 day rest in between).

They consisted of the following exercises:

Chest
-Chest press (7.5kg/3x10reps)
Shoulders
-Lateral raise (1.75kg/3x8reps)
Back
-Upright row (7.5kg/3x10reps)
-Bent over row (7.5kg/3x10)
Legs
-Close leg squat (7.5kg/3x8)
-Static lunges (7.5kg/3x8)
Arms
-Hammer curl (7.5kg/3x10)
-Single arm Tricep extension (1.25kg/3x10)
Abs
-Side bends (7.5kg/3x10)

Now I have read recently that it is recommended to split up the muscle groups into various days in the week to avoid putting to much stress on them and allow for better healing.

I was thinking of changing my weekly routine to something like:

Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Back, Arms
Tues- rest
Wed - Legs, Abs
Thurs.-rest
Friday-Chest, Shoulders, Back, Arms
Sat - rest
Sunday- Legs, Abs

Would the above layout be effective? Or should I be evening the load out a bit better? If it's not up to scratch perhaps you could give me some suggestions. Thanks.

Colm_OReilly

Hi Mr Blue,

As a beginner you have absolutely no need to split up your routine.

Now, as to your current routine, you need to be concentrating on squats, deadlifts, pressing (bench/shoulder). That should form the bulk of your traininig.

Ditch the lateral raises, they're a nice way to mess up your shoulders. Lift a lot heavier too.

Mr.Blue

You think so? I assumed it was a must, to avoid too much load on the muscles. So it's definitely perfectly fine for me to work out my entire body, leaving only a days rest in between then? I do find it less confusing that way, but I also find my leg muscles take more than one day to stop aching and it can be painful when working the legs after just one day. I previously had the weekly layout as follows:

Mon - workout
Tues - rest
Wed - workout
Thurs - rest
Fri - workout
weekend - rest

I'll drop the lateral raises then (should I replace that exercise with another?)

When you say I should be using more weight, do you mean that I should be basically doing less reps with the increased weight then?

And once I get a bench (which will be soon) I can start using my barbell so should I focus on such exercises as the bench press, military press etc?

tlev

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Hi Mr Blue,

As a beginner you have absolutely no need to split up your routine.

Now, as to your current routine, you need to be concentrating on squats, deadlifts, pressing (bench/shoulder). That should form the bulk of your traininig.

Ditch the lateral raises, they're a nice way to mess up your shoulders. Lift a lot heavier too.

How do lateral raises mess up your shoulders?

Roper

tlev wrote: »

How do lateral raises mess up your shoulders?

Through the judicious use of shearing forces and improper biomechanics.

Mr.Blue

I do have a lot of trouble executing the lateral raises with proper form alright. I ended up having to drop the weight significantly. Could definitely do with dropping them.

What are your opinions on full body workouts? As in if it's okay to exercise all the muscles and only take one day rest in between.

Colm_OReilly

Barry answered for me, he must have had coffee earlier as my brain still hasn't woken up.

What I meant by heavier weight is thta 7.5Kg is unlikely to cause the type of response you'd want, especially when you're squatting the same weight you're curling. Actually on that, what do you mean by close stance squat?

Ideally, look here and here for beginners routines.

tlev

Okay, but I've been doing lateral raises for years and I've experienced no pain anywhere from doing them, I will eventually? I'm not trying to be smart I'm just asking.

tlev

tlev wrote: »

Okay, but I've been doing lateral raises for years and I've experienced no pain anywhere from doing them, I will eventually? I'm not trying to be smart I'm just asking.

It's terrible for your rotator cuff and is meant to be a prime candidate for rotator cuff injuries. It's essential to work on your rotator cuff.

tlev

I see, so strengthen the rotator cuff and they become okay to do? What about upright rows, they okay?

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ShouldWt.html#anchor1933886

Transform

no, jesus man just follow the advice (i have not had my coffee yet!).

How many press ups (nose/chest to floor) can you do?

How many full chin ups can you do (arms fully straight at the bottom)?

IMO split programs are a complete waste of time for 99% of trainees and produce over use injuries e.g. quad dominance, shoudlers issues due to front delts being blasted all the time etc

tlev

Transform are you asking me?

20-25 chin ups proper form with chest touching bar

and pushups, I usually just stop at 50 as I do them as a warmup for chest.

Roper

tlev wrote: »

Transform are you asking me?

20-25 chin ups proper form with chest touching bar

and pushups, I usually just stop at 50 as I do them as a warmup for chest.

Okay, then assuming the pull ups are genuine you have strong shoulders. So the next question is what possible effect could doing a few lateral raises with small weights do for you that doing a good shoulder press or heap of pull ups won't, for example?

Also, video of the 25 pull ups would be good, I'm a permanent skeptic

tlev

Roper wrote: »

Okay, then assuming the pull ups are genuine you have strong shoulders. So the next question is what possible effect could doing a few lateral raises with small weights do for you that doing a good shoulder press or heap of pull ups won't, for example?

Also, video of the 25 pull ups would be good, I'm a permanent skeptic

Fair enough I see your point. Really, I wasn't trying to be difficult I was just enquiring. Unfortunately I dont have any videos of myself but I will make one just for you I can give you a picture in the meantime

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1895362&id=551576782 - Me in September 08

Mr.Blue

Okay new exercise (full body) layout. Please comment

Chest
-Chest press
-Dumbbell flyes
Shoulders
-Military press
Back
-Bent over barbell row
(another suggestion?)
Legs
-Close leg squat
-Static lunges
Arms
-Barbell curls (Biceps)
-Dumbbell curls (Triceps)
Abs
-Crunches

I haven't added any barbell squats/lunges because I assume I would need a proper bench (with rack) to safely get the barbell into position.

What do you think of this new one then Colm? Anything you think needs to be added or changed? I'll increase the weights as well.

Also is it a must to have an even number of exercises for each muscle group?

ragg

Imo you need more back work - preferably a "pulling" exercise, consider seated rows.
Ditch the lunges (too much quad work) for now and add a dead lift instead. also i'd ditch the arm work - or at least replace them with something like dips.

But thats just my two cents.

ragg

just thinking about it more, if you add the deadlift, maybe you don't need the seated rows.

Transform

tlev wrote: »

Transform are you asking me?

20-25 chin ups proper form with chest touching bar

and pushups, I usually just stop at 50 as I do them as a warmup for chest.

no mate the original poster

Mr.Blue

Transform wrote: »

no, jesus man just follow the advice (i have not had my coffee yet!).

How many press ups (nose/chest to floor) can you do?

How many full chin ups can you do (arms fully straight at the bottom)?

IMO split programs are a complete waste of time for 99% of trainees and produce over use injuries e.g. quad dominance, shoudlers issues due to front delts being blasted all the time etc

No good at either exercises tbh. From what I can remember from the last time I was doing them, I'd say I can manage about 30 pushups max. As for chin ups, forget em. Absolutely terrible, can barely manage one full one (although I don't have use of a proper chin up bar, only a thin bar fixed above my stairs and close to the ceiling..)

So you think I can go all out and continue doing full body routines then (3 days a week)?

Transform

just keep aiming to increase the weights and get a chin up bar for your door frame and work them.

Master lifting your own body weight first is my rule of thumb

O.P.H

Your routine seems well fussy to me and whats the deal with the 7.5kg and 1.25kg weights? How do you even make up 1.25kg? Is that like a 1kg weight with a 0.25kg weight? Do they even make 0.25kg weights or did you just weight the dumbell with no weights on it and then lift that Sorry mate but it is funny.

You should just do "Starting Strength" or "Get Huuuuuuge Mad Fast" and start lifting heavier weights.

http://www.startingstrength.net/workouts/

Mr.Blue

O.P.H wrote: »

Your routine seems well fussy to me and whats the deal with the 7.5kg and 1.25kg weights? How do you even make up 1.25kg? Is that like a 1kg weight with a 0.25kg weight? Do they even make 0.25kg weights or did you just weight the dumbell with no weights on it and then lift that Sorry mate but it is funny.

You should just do "Starting Strength" or "Get Huuuuuuge Mad Fast" and start lifting heavier weights.

http://www.startingstrength.net/workouts/

I didn't come here for humour, so you can keep the jokes to yourself please.

I'm only reading out the combined rating of individual the weights.

celestial

Mate when you are starting off doing weights and looking to get stronger/build muscle it's the same as what I would say to anyone looking to lose the gut - keep it simple because all you need to do to get results in the early stages is to keep it simple.

What this means in practice is a full-body workout each time you hit the weights with a day's rest in between each workout.

Sample:

Day 1: Bench press, dumbbell rows, squat
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Deadlift (especially important to start with light weights), Military Press/Shoulder Press, plank
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Bench press, squat, barbell curls, tricep kickbacks, cardio if desired

That is a guide but it means you are working your whole body each time you head to the gym, eliciting the maximum growth response from your body and getting the best bang for your buck all round.

itsallaboutheL

Mr.Blue wrote: »

I didn't come here for humour, so you can keep the jokes to yourself please.

I'm only reading out the combined rating of individual the weights.

what he's trying to say is that you may be underestimating your capabilities, and if you up the weight considerably you could surprise yourself. you're selling yourself short focusing so much on isolation exercises at such an early stage.

EDIT: Celestial got there while i was typing

Mr.Blue

celestial wrote: »

Mate when you are starting off doing weights and looking to get stronger/build muscle it's the same as what I would say to anyone looking to lose the gut - keep it simple because all you need to do to get results in the early stages is to keep it simple.

What this means in practice is a full-body workout each time you hit the weights with a day's rest in between each workout.

Sample:

Day 1: Bench press, dumbbell rows, squat
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Deadlift (especially important to start with light weights), Military Press/Shoulder Press, plank
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Bench press, squat, barbell curls, tricep kickbacks, cardio if desired

That is a guide but it means you are working your whole body each time you head to the gym, eliciting the maximum growth response from your body and getting the best bang for your buck all round.

Ah so I shouldn't really be repeating the same exercises during every workout then? Not every muscle group is worked in each workout there, which is what I assumed a full body workout meant?

O.P.H

Mr.Blue wrote: »

I didn't come here for humour, so you can keep the jokes to yourself please.

I'm only reading out the combined rating of individual the weights.

The appropriate response would have been -

"Lol , cheers for that man, I might give it a go"

I think you're lifting weight well below your ability because I reckon your not a woman or a 7 year old child. Me recommending you Starting Strength is probably the best recommendation you'll get.

And there is nothing wrong with a bit of piss take.

Mr.Blue

O.P.H, I apologize. I obviously misinterpreted you. Thanks for the link, the site looks very helpful. I'll give it a read.

Btw, I already decided I'd be increasing the weight. I just want to be careful I don't use too much weight for the back and leg exercises.

itsallaboutheL

Mr.Blue wrote: »

O.P.H, I apologize. I obviously misinterpreted you. Thanks for the link, the site looks very helpful. I'll give it a read.

Btw, I already decided I'd be increasing the weight. I just want to be careful I don't use too much weight for the back and leg exercises.

Whats your height age weight??

Mr.Blue

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Whats your height age weight??

5'9.5, about 156lbs (11st.) currently. And I'm 20 years old.

O.P.H

Mr.Blue wrote: »

O.P.H, I apologize. I obviously misinterpreted you. Thanks for the link, the site looks very helpful. I'll give it a read.

Btw, I already decided I'd be increasing the weight. I just want to be careful I don't use too much weight for the back and leg exercises.

For the first few weeks defo do lighter weights to get your techniques correct and also your new to weights so you will have to go through that sore phase. When you do new exercises etc like for the legs your gonna get sore for a few days after and maybe you wont be able to stick to your routine but you get through this and then get into the swing of things. For me I never did Starting Strength but for starters its suppose to be the best program around. Basiclly its the core lifts, focusing on proper technique, good warm ups, fewer reps and heavy weights. Best way to get through the beginner phase. The link I gave you is the basics, the book goes through all the lifts and proper technique, personally i could'nt be arsed readin it and I reckon you have enough in that site. If you do it remember to increase your weights be the right amount every week and do the warm up as they say.

Mr.Blue

After reading through starting strength I see that chin ups are a part of the program. Thing is I find them very difficult and would not be able to do the amount required. The site recommends not to change any of the exercises but is there not another exercise I could do instead of chin ups that would be just as effective?

ragg

Resets on the chin up bar are an option.
It basically involves starting high and lowering yourself really slowly.
Other people may recommend inverted rows on a smith machine - not to sure about them as I have never tried

O.P.H

You could do cable pull downs

Mr.Blue

O.P.H, I don't go to a gym so I wouldn't have access to the machine needed to do that exercise.

O.P.H

Then using the bar you use for your pull ups, try using a rubber band to assit you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TindOf7zyXM

or just do what your man said about just doing the down part of the pull up, here is a good video on progression of pull ups, kind of all you need to know about gettin better at pull ups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba7q14s5-2w

d'Oracle

Mr.Blue wrote: »

After reading through starting strength I see that chin ups are a part of the program. Thing is I find them very difficult and would not be able to do the amount required. The site recommends not to change any of the exercises but is there not another exercise I could do instead of chin ups that would be just as effective?

Chins don't have to be part though.

The Original Beginners Programme is Squat, Press/Bench, Deadlift/Power Clean.

Do you play any team sports that involve running or Jumping?
Then you owe youself Power Cleans.;)

Mr.Blue

You guys sure 'power cleans' (and the like) wouldn't be a little too complicated for me to be doing as a beginner though? I just wouldn't have thought so much barbell work (as in the program) would be suited to beginners. I found the dumbbell exercises I have been doing the past week and a half to be quite easy and straightforward and there was no need to worry about incorrect form. I'm happy to give em a go if it really is the best thing for me to be doing though.

NFH

Barbell work is essential. Go out and buy a proper olympic barbell with olympic size plates. The plate size is important because it will effect your technique for deadlift etc as the plates determine the height of the barbell from the ground. Also barbell allows you to pack on more weight and it generally requires the use of more muscle groups to control, giving a better workout imo. Dumbells are good to but you cant have a home gym without a barbell and proper plates, I'd say thats your first mission right there. Also if you really are gonna train at home barbells and dumbells are no good to ya unless yuo have a proper bench setup. Might cost a bit but you have em for life.

Mr.Blue

NFH wrote: »

Barbell work is essential. Go out and buy a proper olympic barbell with olympic size plates. The plate size is important because it will effect your technique for deadlift etc as the plates determine the height of the barbell from the ground. Also barbell allows you to pack on more weight and it generally requires the use of more muscle groups to control, giving a better workout imo. Dumbells are good to but you cant have a home gym without a barbell and proper plates, I'd say thats your first mission right there. Also if you really are gonna train at home barbells and dumbells are no good to ya unless yuo have a proper bench setup. Might cost a bit but you have em for life.

Not sure if I mentioned it before but I actually already have a Barbell (along with quite a few weights) which I only recently bought. Didn't know barbells were that much more effective at muscle gain as opposed to dumbbells though. That alone has convinced me to give the barbell exercises a go because quick results is exactly what I want. I am looking to buy a bench soon as well (right now all I have is a rickety wooden bench, not designed for weight lifting).

BobbyOLeary

NFH wrote: »

Also if you really are gonna train at home barbells and dumbells are no good to ya unless yuo have a proper bench setup.

Yes, because Back Squats, Front Squats, Overhead Squats, Cleans, Snatches, Shoulder presses and deadlifts are no good. Good point. Oh wait no, that's the opposite of a good point, sorry.

OP, Starting Strength suits you fine, you won't hurt yourself learning the power clean, I had the same fear. Watch some instructional videos, video yourself trying it with the bar and compare them. Correct any major mistakes and repeat. It's a far simpler movement than people think.

Back squatting may be a problem for you at home if you have no rack though, Rubadub on here has some clever ways of countering this but they escape me at this point, PM him and I'm sure he'll be happy to give you some advice on squatting sans rack.

Mr.Blue

Bobby, thanks for the reassurance. I'm definitely not going to be attempting any barbell squats until I have a proper bench (w/rack). So until then I don't see a point in attempting starting strength. I'm hopefully going to get a bench this week so I should be able to start the program next week.

Also, how much weight (for barbell) do you think I could safely start with? I know it's something that differs depending on the person but if you could just give me a general safe range.

NFH

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Yes, because Back Squats, Front Squats, Overhead Squats, Cleans, Snatches, Shoulder presses and deadlifts are no good. Good point. Oh wait no, that's the opposite of a good point, sorry.

OP, Starting Strength suits you fine, you won't hurt yourself learning the power clean, I had the same fear. Watch some instructional videos, video yourself trying it with the bar and compare them. Correct any major mistakes and repeat. It's a far simpler movement than people think.

Back squatting may be a problem for you at home if you have no rack though, Rubadub on here has some clever ways of countering this but they escape me at this point, PM him and I'm sure he'll be happy to give you some advice on squatting sans rack.

Where would the world of forums be without sarcastic muppets :rolleyes:

Everyone knows the setup I'm talkin bout. Bench with rack setup for bench press and for holdin weight to allow for squats etc, would also be good if it had setup for leg exercises.

And ya Bobby, if hes gonna train at home and if hes gonna go and spend money on barbells, dumbells and weights and not get somekind bench with rack setup then thats just stupid. If somethins worth doin its worth doin right. Hes gonna do Starting Strength right? well without a setup like I'm talkin bout he cant do bench press or squats. Good luck doing SS without those. Legend input, ffs.

Ya need it for bench press, squats, flys, incline press, decline press, you can do leg extentions and hamstring curls etc etc etc. Sure you can improvise but the question is why would ya?

O.P.H

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Yes, because Back Squats, Front Squats, Overhead Squats, Cleans, Snatches, Shoulder presses and deadlifts are no good. Good point. Oh wait no, that's the opposite of a good point, sorry.

OP, Starting Strength suits you fine, you won't hurt yourself learning the power clean, I had the same fear. Watch some instructional videos, video yourself trying it with the bar and compare them. Correct any major mistakes and repeat. It's a far simpler movement than people think.

Back squatting may be a problem for you at home if you have no rack though, Rubadub on here has some clever ways of countering this but they escape me at this point, PM him and I'm sure he'll be happy to give you some advice on squatting sans rack.

LOL

Good man yourself Bob. I'd love ta see you do all those squats your on about without some kinda rack setup or do a barbell pench press without a bench, that is unless you arent doin heavy weights of course

top madra

NFH wrote: »

Also barbell allows you to pack on more weight and it generally requires the use of more muscle groups to control, giving a better workout imo. quote]

dumbells requires more muscle groups to control.

top madra

Mr.Blue wrote: »

Okay new exercise (full body) layout. Please comment


Arms
-Barbell curls (Biceps)
-Dumbbell curls (Triceps)

dumbell curls are for your biceps
dude you shouldnt just read s.s you should do it,as not bein any good at chin ups,practice makes perfect

BobbyOLeary

Where would the world of forums be without sarcastic muppets

I dunno, where would the world of forums be without inaccurate advice? I'll lose the sarcasm if you lose the inaccurate advice, deal?

Mr. Blue, start each lift with just the olympic bar, do a couple of sets of 5 with good form then add about 10kg. Rinse and repeat until your form breaks down, do 2 more sets (or no more in the case of the deadlift) at your last good weight and call it a day for that lift. Next time add 2.5kg for the squat and presses and 5kg for the deadlift, continue as long as you're able.

I've left out bits and pieces that are covered both in the book and in that wiki. Your best bet is to buy the book, it'll last you a lifetime and there is always someone looking for a copy if you for some strange reason wanted to sell it.

NFH

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

I dunno, where would the world of forums be without inaccurate advice? I'll lose the sarcasm if you lose the inaccurate advice, deal?

Mr. Blue, start each lift with just the olympic bar, do a couple of sets of 5 with good form then add about 10kg. Rinse and repeat until your form breaks down, do 2 more sets (or no more in the case of the deadlift) at your last good weight and call it a day for that lift. Next time add 2.5kg for the squat and presses and 5kg for the deadlift, continue as long as you're able.

I've left out bits and pieces that are covered both in the book and in that wiki. Your best bet is to buy the book, it'll last you a lifetime and there is always someone looking for a copy if you for some strange reason wanted to sell it.

Sorry mate, but that dosent fly. Maybe if I had been tellin him he needs to always do reps of 20 to build mass or sit-ups are all he needs to do to get a 6 pack, maybe then you could call me out.

But telling him that he needs to get a bench with a rack, you think this is "inaccurate". Telling him he needs a bench with a rack to do bench press and squats for SS is correct. Your the guy who said all ya need is dumbells and barbells and ya can be squatting away with just that. Try doin a heavy squat with no rack. Your the only one givin out inaccurate advice.

itsallaboutheL

Mr.Blue

Listen guys your both giving me good advice. No need to argue

I won't be able to do things such as a bench press until I get bench anyway, so I'll be holding off doing pretty much all barbell exercises until I have one.

Bobby thanks for going into the weights I should be using. I'll do just as you say.

Do you think it's best I just wait until I have the bench (which I should have by the end of the week/weekend) before starting the new program/doing any exercises? Or should I continue to do some dumbbell exercises in the meantime to keep me in some sort of routine between now and until I can start the proper SS program?

Colm_OReilly

Do you think it's best I just wait until I have the bench (which I should have by the end of the week/weekend) before starting the new program/doing any exercises? Or should I continue to do some dumbbell exercises in the meantime to keep me in some sort of routine between now and until I can start the proper SS program?

Honestly the best thing you can do is get in touch with a trainer, preferably one familiar with SS and free weights, and invest in a session or two with them.

BobbyOLeary

Sorry mate, but that dosent fly. Maybe if I had been tellin him he needs to always do reps of 20 to build mass or sit-ups are all he needs to do to get a 6 pack, maybe then you could call me out.

We're mates now? Sweet, when's the sleepover and what DVD should I bring?

You said weights were no good without a bench, I called you on that. If I somehow offended you, I don't care, this is the internet not anything remotely important. I take back what I said about front and back squatting if that unbunches your underwear?

Mr. Blue, Colm's right, a session or two with a trainer who can show you the Squat, Press, Bench, Deadlift and Power Clean (admittedly it would really take longer than two sessions to become proficient at these but you'll get a decent enough base of technique). If you have a barbell you can do some shoulder presses, deadlifts and power cleans while you wait on the rack setup, get used to the technique and such.