Public workers earn 48 per cent more than others

cdb

If these figures are correct there is only one answer, another round of benchmarking.

Friday July 10 2009
Ireland’s public workers earn around 48 per cent more an hour than those in private industry, according to a report published by the Central Statistics Office today.
Average hourly earnings in the public sector were €26.67, compared with €18.07 elsewhere, according to the National Employment Survey 2007. Weekly salaries for public workers, who work on average 2.3 fewer hours, were 33 percent higher.
The government has introduced a levy on public workers’ pay to cover the cost of their guaranteed pensions as it seeks ways to control spending as the budget deficit widens. It has also commissioned a report on public worker numbers and pay that will be incorporated into its 2010 Budget.
“The need to correct our unaffordable level of current public expenditure has not gone away,” Rossa White, chief economist at securities firm Davy, said before the survey was published.
“Shaving 10 percent, or about €2bn, off the public pay bill is the minimum required in December’s Budget.”
Average hourly earnings were highest in the education sector at €33.23 per hour, today’s report showed. The lowest average hourly earnings were in the hotels and restaurants industry at €12.93.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/public-workers-earn-48-per-cent-more-than-others-1816537.html

Riskymove

Hi

there is already a thread on the irish Economy Sub-forum on this matter

jimmmy

cdb wrote: »

If these figures are correct there is only one answer, another round of benchmarking.


http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/public-workers-earn-48-per-cent-more-than-others-1816537.html

The much needed cuts cannot come soon enough. The politicians are on holidays until the middle of September. ( many public servants I know are not far behind ). The country will have borrowed another couple of billion by then , which our children and grandchildren will have to try to pay back at high interest rates. How will you explain to them how did the "apartheid like " state of our economy continue so long in 2009 ?

Dob74

This is hardly a surprise. The government did not control the spend on the public service pay for the last few years.
Now they have very little chance of clawing back the Public Service pay without massive industrial unrest.

I thought it was amusing for the head of the IDA to call for some workers to take a 15% pay cut.
Not I will take a 15% pay cut and ecouraging other workers to do the same. The top dogs on the government payroll havent a clue. There is alot of, do what I say not do as do.

jimmmy

Dob74 wrote: »

This is hardly a surprise. The government did not control the spend on the public service pay for the last few years.
Now they have very little chance of clawing back the Public Service pay without massive industrial unrest.

I thought it was amusing for the head of the IDA to call for some workers to take a 15% pay cut.
Not I will take a 15% pay cut and ecouraging other workers to do the same. The top dogs on the government payroll havent a clue. There is alot of, do what I say not do as do.

Agree with you there. I know a fellow in the IDA on over € 100,000 a year, and he does very little work ( he even admits this socially sometimes ). When he retires soon he will get 150,000 lump sum plus over 50,000 per year pension. Yet these people are looking for others ( in worse paid, less secure jobs ) to take a 15% pay cut ?

I know who should get cut.

irish_bob

Dob74 wrote: »

This is hardly a surprise. The government did not control the spend on the public service pay for the last few years.
Now they have very little chance of clawing back the Public Service pay without massive industrial unrest.

I thought it was amusing for the head of the IDA to call for some workers to take a 15% pay cut.
Not I will take a 15% pay cut and ecouraging other workers to do the same. The top dogs on the government payroll havent a clue. There is alot of, do what I say not do as do.

strikes by public sector workers are harmless providing the public dont support them , unfortunatley in this country we dont seem to realise that public sector workers striking costs us the tax payer money , instead we see it as someone sticking it to the man and say fair play regardless of how valid the strike is , the fact that everyone in the country has a relative of some kind who works in the public sector and the fact that irish people like to keep money in the family , results in strikes getting substantial support for the most part

jimmmy

The days of the public sector getting substantial support in this country are over. Economic apartheid has divided the public / private sector, and there are a lot less public sector workers in the country than private sector + unemployed.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

The days of the public sector getting substantial support in this country are over. Economic apartheid has divided the public / private sector, and there are a lot less public sector workers in the country than private sector + unemployed.

yes but as i stated in several other posts , while most dont work in the public sector , being a small country , everyone has a wife , husband , son , daughter , mum , dad , aunt , uncle who does and an out of work private sector worker married to a nurse or guard doesnt want to see thier spouses pay dropped

irish people like to keep money in the family

jimmmy

More guards seem to be married to nurses, certainly rather than are married to out of work private sector spouses ! Anyway, while I appreciate your point, there are only just over 300,000 public servants in the state, out of a population of 3 million plus.....so most people are not married to public servants....ok, while many may have a cousin or a uncle or a sister-in-law employed in the public service ( at the average public service pay of 50 k per year )...most private sector people want to see this reduced...they / we are fed up seeing our noses rubbed in it....if I had a relative earning far more than their counterparts in any country abroad, and given the state of our economy, I think it only fair their pay should be drastically reduced. When was the last time your public service relative put their hand in their pocket for you ? Why should we pay them more than they would get in any similar govt job anywhere in the world ? Its time the citizens of this country got value for money from our public service.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Economic apartheid has divided the public / private sector,

Dear me jimmmy, you're really going over the top. Do you know anything about what apartheid was? If you did you would not make such a silly comparison. To do so, trivialises what was suffered by non-'white' South Africans.

Big business has divided the public & private sector. By setting workers against each other, it draws attention away from taxes being siphoned off to cover bank losses and allows big property speculators to keep their palatial houses.

You've really fallen for it.

Once sufficient public support has been whipped up for selling off publc utilities such as water, gas, roads and electricity, the Irish workers will be laid off, replaced by offshore foreigners and the prices will go up as the new owners asset-strip the companies, loading them with debt to pay for other aquisitions.

Ask yourself this: who owns the newspapers whose views you have so enthusiatically embraced?

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

More guards seem to be married to nurses, certainly rather than are married to out of work private sector spouses ! Anyway, while I appreciate your point, there are only just over 300,000 public servants in the state, out of a population of 3 million plus.....so most people are not married to public servants....ok, while many may have a cousin or a uncle or a sister-in-law employed in the public service ( at the average public service pay of 50 k per year )...most private sector people want to see this reduced...they / we are fed up seeing our noses rubbed in it....if I had a relative earning far more than their counterparts in any country abroad, and given the state of our economy, I think it only fair their pay should be drastically reduced. When was the last time your public service relative put their hand in their pocket for you ? Why should we pay them more than they would get in any similar govt job anywhere in the world ? Its time the citizens of this country got value for money from our public service.

if what your saying was the case , unions would not be so brazen when it comes to threats of strike , the reality is the people support strikes in fairly large numbers , we react emotionally to union jargon , we allow unions to press our buttons , when we hear about strikes , we buy the union line that cuts in the HSE will effect a little girl who has leukemia when in reality its surplus to requirement pen pushers who are facing the axe , the unions do not have the countrys interest at heart , they are interestng in broadening thier influcene over politicians and so as to furthier thier agenda , thier are no bigger power mongers out there than statist unions , its time people used thier heads instead of thier hearts and saw through the unions weasel words

irish_bob

NewDubliner wrote: »

Dear me jimmmy, you're really going over the top. Do you know anything about what apartheid was? If you did you would not make such a silly comparison. To do so, trivialises what was suffered by non-'white' South Africans.

Big business has divided the public & private sector. By setting workers against each other, it draws attention away from taxes being siphoned off to cover bank losses and allows big property speculators to keep their palatial houses.

You've really fallen for it.

Once sufficient public support has been whipped up for selling off publc utilities such as water, gas, roads and electricity, the Irish workers will be laid off, replaced by offshore foreigners and the prices will go up as the new owners asset-strip the companies, loading them with debt to pay for other aquisitions.

Ask yourself this: who owns the newspapers whose views you have so enthusiatically embraced?

your full of patronising **** , most of us see waste an ineficency in the public sector on a weekly basis , we dont need tony o reilly to tell us , spare us the banner slogans you heard at union camp from begg and o,connr

WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS
THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM
STOP SWALLOWING THE SUNDAY INDO ANTI PUBLIC SECTOR LINE

pathetic

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

Big business has divided the public & private sector.

What has divided public and private sector is the fact that public sector workers are now paid 50% more than private sector workers, as confirmed by the main front page headline on Irelands most popular broadsheet yesterday. € 30.5 million PER DAY is being borrowed to pay public service wages in Ireland.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

as confirmed by the main front page headline on Irelands most popular broadsheet yesterday.

ah well it must be so if the indo is on the case:pac::pac::pac:

jimmmy

given that the c.s.o. has confirmed it , its fair to say its not too far wide of the mark

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

given that the c.s.o. has confirmed it , its fair to say its not too far wide of the mark

I'm afraid that the CSO has not confirmed it at all...


this is not the first time we've had to debate the Indo's reporting style on a report. They have once again twisted things to suit their populalist stance on public sector pay

Time Magazine

irish_bob wrote: »

WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS

Actually the Central Bank had a lot to do with it. Far more so than, say, engineers in Dell.

Guess who has lost their job?

jimmmy wrote: »

given that the c.s.o. has confirmed it , its fair to say its not too far wide of the mark

It's fairly wide of the mark tbh.

Gurgle

Is there any comparison of public sector pay vs private sector pay for the same education / skill level?

AFAIK, theres few enough jobs for near-illiterate labourers in the public sector which may skew the figures somewhat when compared to the average industrial wage.

Or would that ruin the whole civil-servant-bashing game?

jimmmy

The Economist wrote: »

Actually the Central Bank had a lot to do with it. Far more so than, say, engineers in Dell.

Everyone knows that. And who controlled the central bank ? Who ran the country which made our public service is the highest paid / most overpaid ( and over pensioned ) in the world, and having to borrow 30.5 million per day to sustain that ?

Riskymove

[

Is there any comparison of public sector pay vs private sector pay for the same education / skill level?

AFAIK, theres few enough jobs for near-illiterate labourers in the public sector which may skew the figures somewhat when compared to the average industrial wage.

thats the problem really, the lack of a "like-for-like" comparison

Or would that ruin the whole civil-servant-bashing game?

It would for the Indo, jimmmy etc

Time Magazine

Gurgle wrote: »

Is there any comparison of public sector pay vs private sector pay for the same education / skill level?

The ESRI did one in December. The paper is here, with a summary here.

Riskymove

The Economist wrote: »

The ESRI did one in December. The paper is here, with a summary here.

a good insight of the shocking joke that was benchmarking

jimmmy

The Economist wrote: »

The ESRI did one in December. The paper is here, with a summary here.

There have been lots of studies and surveys made. Plus lots of other camparisons eg Mary the nurse being paid double what nurses are paid in Munich or Manchester. Vincent the vet in Donegal in the dept of agriculture ( overstaffed with 6000 people for only 100,000 farmers in the country, but thats another story ) being paid 100,000 while his counterpart in Fermanagh is paid only half that. The Germans ambassadors daugher is a consultant in a top hospital in Berlin, and he remarked recently how her pay is only 40% of similar grade pay in Ireland.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Plus lots of other camparisons

i.e. anecdotes

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

There have been lots of studies and surveys made.

Lots? I am aware of the ESRI one. Can you tell me of others?

Plus lots of other camparisons eg Mary the nurse being paid double what nurses are paid in Munich or Manchester. Vincent the vet in Donegal in the dept of agriculture ( overstaffed with 6000 people for only 100,000 farmers in the country, but thats another story ) being paid 100,000 while his counterpart in Fermanagh is paid only half that. The Germans ambassadors daugher is a consultant in a top hospital in Berlin, and he remarked recently how her pay is only 40% of similar grade pay in Ireland.

Anecdote is not evidence.

jimmmy

Given that public service pay and pensions in this country are so way out of line with the rest of the world, never mind the private sector, dhttp://www.independent.ie/business/i...s-1816537.html , will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ? Everyone knows the current situation of borrowing 30.5 million per day to sustain out public service is sustainable.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Given that public service pay and pensions in this country are so way out of line with the rest of the world, never mind the private sector, dhttp://www.independent.ie/business/i...s-1816537.html , will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ? Everyone knows the current situation of borrowing 30.5 million per day to sustain out public service is sustainable.

that's it jimmmy just ignore the debate and repost the link.

the cso report and the indo reporting of it is the issue on this thread. The CSO report is not about the public sector pay bill or its sustainability.

The report does not have any like-for-like pay comparisons so a fail there too.

Again i would say that the indo reporting on the cso report is populist lazy journalism.

jimmmy

Riskymove, you still have not answered the question. Given that public service pay and pensions in this country are so way out of line with the rest of the world, never mind the private sector, will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ?

Time Magazine

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Lots? I am aware of the ESRI one. Can you tell me of others?

I doubt he can, but there are others.

Here's a brief one (but based on something far more substantive). Also I'm almost certain more were done as a result of benchmarking, though I don't have time to go gandering.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Riskymove, you still have not answered the question. Given that public service pay and pensions in this country are so way out of line with the rest of the world, never mind the private sector, will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ?

jimmmy

you introduced that question (based on your usual sensationalist rethoric) onto this thread and it has nothing to do with the discussions we were having.

you have failed to respond to the comments about the indo reporting (yet again) but of course that's alright but we must change our discussions and answer to you.

if you want to discuss something else start a thread.

I_am_Jebus

Jimmmy
Is you're sole argument for public sector pay reductions a comparison between the salary of a job role in Ireland with a similar job role in another country (based of course on what your friend's friend from Croatia is getting paid as an administrator in Dresden's local council)?

'Cos seriously, you need to flesh it out there a bit more - you do know that the per unit manufactured labour cost for any run of the mill consumer good is considerably less in India then it is in Ireland.

Should all manunfacturing jobs have salary reductions in Ireland to compare with other countries?

Of course the price of (insert comsumer good here) is also cheaper in these other countries.

Time Magazine

jimmmy wrote: »

will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ?

FFS I don't think riskymove can speak for when the government will act. And just dropping "ooooooh the IMF are coming!" into the debate isn't helping. The public sector pay bill is €20bn. So even if we cut everyone's pay by 20% that saves €4bn, or less than one-fifth of the projected deficit for this year.

I think there are two well-established facts that both sides should accept.

1. Yes, there is a public sector pay gap and yes, it's a considerable amount (about 20%).
2. Even if this was removed, we'd still be in a mess economically. Public sector pay is neither the cause of, nor solution to, all of our problems.

If we got that, then maybe the debate could be worthwhile.

solice

jimmmy wrote: »

Riskymove, you still have not answered the question. Given that public service pay and pensions in this country are so way out of line with the rest of the world, never mind the private sector, will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ?

Im going to hazard a guess, I could be way off the mark here Jimmy but just taking a stab in the dark at it....would they do it at the budget....you know that thing that the Minister for Finance does once a year, where they announce their spending budget for the following year? Would that be it? :rolleyes:

Économiste Monétaire

The Economist wrote: »

I doubt he can, but there are others.

Here's a brief one (but based on something far more substantive). Also I'm almost certain more were done as a result of benchmarking, though I don't have time to go gandering.

Here's another study based on 2003 earnings data—it's a report to the benchmarking body. It doesn't quite show the 50% premium; more on the lines of 10-15%. There was another ESRI paper on the issue around 2001/3. Personally, I'm not aware of anything more up-to-date than the 2008 ESRI paper that TE already linked.

jimmmy

The Economist wrote: »

The public sector pay bill is €20bn. So even if we cut everyone's pay by 20% that saves €4bn, or less than one-fifth of the projected deficit for this year.

It would be a help. Of course public service pensions should be cut as well, why should our public service pensioners be the highest paid / most overpaid public service pensioners in the world , given the state of our finances ? A bit of fairness and common sense is called for.

Time Magazine

jimmmy wrote: »

It would be a help. Of course public service pensions should be cut as well, why should our public service pensioners be the highest paid / most overpaid public service pensioners in the world , given the state of our finances ?

I'm including pensions as "pay" for public service. The figure is still €20bn, and they've already taken the pay cut "pension levy".

A bit of fairness and common sense is called for.

I agree entirely. So seeing as if we were to eliminate the pay gap to the international average of 10%, we'd need to cut public sector pay by another €600m. So we're talking €600m here out of about €21bn of a deficit. Considerable, but nothing major. I hope you include yourself in that call for a bit of common sense.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

A bit of fairness and common sense is called for.

:pac:

jimmmy

The Economist wrote: »

The public sector pay bill is €20bn. So even if we cut everyone's pay by 20% that saves €4bn, or less than one-fifth of the projected deficit for this year.


I think there are two well-established facts that both sides should accept.

1. Yes, there is a public sector pay gap and yes, it's a considerable amount (about 20%).
2. Even if this was removed, we'd still be in a mess economically.

Even if the gap is only 20% as you claim ( most people would disagree ), why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the puiblic sector, as in most other countries ? There is scope for saving 8 billion plus , given overstaffing in the public service ( eg 6000 in the dept of agriculture for only 100,000 farmers ), current poor productivity / short working hours ( sickies, 32 hour weeks, longer holidays etc ). Save 8 billion there , and cut our politicans numbers and pay too to more like international standards. If this had been done before now, we would not be in as big a mess economically.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

[/LIST]
Save 8 billion there , .

sorry jimmmy, €8bn saved where exactly?

erase the Dept of agriculture?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Riskymove, you still have not answered the question. ...

That's a bit rich, given that you just ducked a question I put to you. [Mind you, you neither surprised nor disappointed me.]

Économiste Monétaire

jimmmy wrote: »

Even if the gap is only 20% as you claim ( most people would disagree )

Most people... and they are? Are there any economists that support your position?

P. Breathnach

The Economist wrote: »

I doubt he can, but there are others.

I'm sure there are.

Here's a brief one (but based on something far more substantive). Also I'm almost certain more were done as a result of benchmarking, though I don't have time to go gandering.

Thank you. At least it has data (okay, better to say that it is based on available data). I prefer the ESRI approach, which better accommodates the idea of like-with-like comparison.

LoLth

@jimmy & post #38

somehow I dont think "sickies" are actually part of the public sector employment conditions, nor do I think sick days are exclusive to either sector in the economy. 32 hour weeks... I know several people working in the public sector and they are all on 39 + 40 hour weeks. one friend has extended holidays but she works a thing called "term time" where she works less hours per week and has extended summer holidays to help manage the care of her daughter, of course her pay is reduced proportionate to the hours she works , it just gets spread out over the entire year instead. Flexi-time, you still put in the same number of hours you just get to re-adjust when those hours go in to make life easier - the work still gets done and the cover is still there (ie. not everyone can take a flexi leave day at the same time). To be honest, this is somethign the private sector should be emulating not trying to have taken away. I've seen to many people down tools at 5 or 6pm and leave a job half done to pick up the next day because they're finished work and thats that. at least with flexi time (time in lieu and not overtime) the job gets finished. [ i worked in a call cenrte once where the phones were switched off at 5:30 exactly even if you were in the middle of a conversation , I worked in another that turned off the queues at 5:00 so they would empty at 5:30. if you didnt have a call in your queue you twiddled your thumbs or went home early] poor productivity ? again not exclusive to either sector (I look at the workmanship in the window frames and doors in my house as well as the number of puttied in holes in the wall and the terrible fitting of the skirting boards and I have to wonder about the level of productivity the builders had and the quality of that product).

could you please stop re-hashing old arguments that you were proven wrong in before. seriously, its getting annyoing now and is counter productive to the discussion at hand. it just forces everyone to re-cover old ground and exasperates those who've already tried to help you see the light. you do have some good points but you hide them under so much preacher-like parrotting of terms that you read in the Indo that its almost embarrassing to actually agree with you on anything.

Riskymove

LoLth wrote: »

could you please stop re-hashing old arguments that you were proven wrong in before. seriously, its getting annyoing now and is counter productive to the discussion at hand. it just forces everyone to re-cover old ground and exasperates those who've already tried to help you see the light. you do have some good points but you hide them under so much preacher-like parrotting of terms that you read in the Indo that its almost embarrassing to actually agree with you on anything.

it would seem jimmmy does not know any other way to post

Riskymove

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Most people... and they are?

the people who read the indo and blindly react to sensational headlines

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

[/LIST]
Even if the gap is only 20% as you claim ( most people would disagree ),

Another wild claim. Can you back that one up?

why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the puiblic sector, as in most other countries ? There is scope for saving 8 billion plus , given overstaffing in the public service ( eg 6000 in the dept of agriculture for only 100,000 farmers ), current poor productivity / short working hours ( sickies, 32 hour weeks, longer holidays etc ). Save 8 billion there , and cut our politicans numbers and pay too to more like international standards. If this had been done before now, we would not be in as big a mess economically.

That looks to me a bit like soapboxing.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That looks to me a bit like soapboxing.

Well, why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the public sector, as in most other countries ?

Of course if I was a public servant ( a servant who works for the public ) or a retired public servant , I may think it ok that the govt borrows over 30 million PER DAY to keep me and my comrades supported

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

sorry jimmmy, €8bn saved where exactly?

erase the Dept of agriculture?

oh...but you still not have answered my question jimmmy...:pac::pac::pac:

Ms Happy

I am on €24K and NOT PERMANENT so please as stated by many posters in other threads don't tar us all as wasters etc etc etc.

As a public sector worker I have seen the "fat" that could be trimmed off. Most of this lies with "established" employees that do SFA.

There are many hard working public sector employees that don't sit around all day doing nothing. Mnay of us face an uncertain future as many private sector workers do.

I could rant on but there's no point.....

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Well, why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the public sector, as in most other countries ?

Of course if I was a public servant ( a servant who works for the public ) or a retired public servant , I may think it ok that the govt borrows over 30 million PER DAY to keep me and my comrades supported

jimmmy

again these are issues which have little to do with this thread if you want to start a thread about borrowing do so

Mountjoy Mugger

Jaysus, Jimmmy.

You're really full of it - and it's all gone down undigested.

I suppose if you'd got a PS with 10 High Court Judges on 200k p.a. and 10 Clerical Officers earning 22k p.a; you'd still swallow the ****e about average PS salary being 110k p.a. and cut the C.O.'s wage by 20% ?