Can't get refund!

Oscar10

Anybody having trouble getting a refund from a faulty mobile phone?

My phone have broke down twice with the same fault but the store says i have to have three repairs carried out before they will give me a refund!

Oscar

Oryx

What is the timescale, how new is the phone?

robbie_998

if you still have receipt they can swap iit for another.....i've often gotten another phone of companies because there was a fault with them

Oscar10

the time scale was four weeks - but they won't refund me!

Sam Vimes

Three repairs is the standard policy of pretty much every phone shop in the country because it's the policy of the major phone manufacturers. If they gave you a refund they'd be taking the hit themselves because the manufacturer wouldn't refund them

Welease

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Three repairs is the standard policy of pretty much every phone shop in the country because it's the policy of the major phone manufacturers. If they gave you a refund they'd be taking the hit themselves because the manufacturer wouldn't refund them

Isn't that contrary to law though? Under the 3 R's the repair is supposed to be permanent.

Oscar10

thanks for the info, but should i be entitled under some consumer legislation rights or something, to get a refund if i want..?

anyone else have the same problem?

would appreciate more help

Oscar

_Whimsical_

Oscar10 wrote: »

anyone else have the same problem?
would appreciate more help
Oscar

You can call the consumer connect helpline on 1890 432 432.They can give you definitive advice and inform you of any relevant legislation that might help you.That's probaby the easiest and most accurate route to finding the best advice.If you do ring let us know how you get on.I think there is an accepted time frame in which a product breaks that you are entitled to a refund.I might be wrong though.


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Oscar10

anybody have any success getting a refund before?

I was also told to buy insurance, which is supposed to be for 'breakdown cover', but this is of no use to me, I think?

Do they get commission for selling insurance in these places??

Any advice?

Sam Vimes

Welease wrote: »

Isn't that contrary to law though? Under the 3 R's the repair is supposed to be permanent.

It appears to be a grey area. It seems to be illegal but it's the policy followed by all the major phone shops. O2 decided to stop it for a while but went back to it because they were losing too much money on it

Oscar10 wrote: »

thanks for the info, but should i be entitled under some consumer legislation rights or something, to get a refund if i want..?

The only thing you can realistically do is go to the small claims court. Costs €15 I think and you can apply online

_Whimsical_

Oscar10 wrote: »

anybody have any success getting a refund before?

I was also told to buy insurance, which is supposed to be for 'breakdown cover', but this is of no use to me, I think?

Do they get commission for selling insurance in these places??

Any advice?

Probably.Ring consumer connect.

Oryx

The three repairs is their policy, (or the manufacturers policy). It is not enshrined in law. The law only states that a repair must be permanent and the solution to a problem must be reasonable (to both sides).

I think with a four week old phone that has had two repairs for the same fault you have been more than reasonable with them. It strikes me as distinctly unreasonable of them to insist you wait till it breaks again.

So. If you now have a fully functioning phone, you can either use it and see if it remains ok, or you can call to them and nicely insist that they replace or refund you. (Both avenues are still open to them). Dont be fobbed off by their policy being passed off by them as the legal status.

If all else fails youve got the small claims court, but bear in mind if you now have a phone that is working, it may not go your way.

Oscar10

How long does it take to get the small claims sorted out?

what about the insurance? should I have had to buy insurance at all if i was entitled to a refund/repair anyway?

rhey said the insurance was for breakdown cover, but it was a manufactures fault??

Jev/N

Is it working now since the last repair?

Dublin-32

not working still

Jev/N

Ah right, I'd agree with the above advice so....

It is certainly a grey area regarding the 3 strike rule. Retailers should offer either refund/credit, repair or replacement but they are not obliged to offer any specific remedy. However, if one remedy has not provided satisfaction they must offer an alternative - did you seek a replacement of the same model or a similar model with credit/payment to settle the difference?

Oryx

Oscar10 wrote: »

How long does it take to get the small claims sorted out?

what about the insurance? should I have had to buy insurance at all if i was entitled to a refund/repair anyway?

rhey said the insurance was for breakdown cover, but it was a manufactures fault??

Insurance covers you for things like dropping it down the toilet. Its optional.

Your statutory rights outweigh any warranty.

Seeing as your phone is still faulty, go back and mention the thing about a repair being supposed to be permanent. Ask for one of the other options (refund, replace) Be polite, but stick to your guns. Dont ever say 'But I know my rights!!' You might know em, but its dead irritating.

All else fails, scc.

Oscar10

I wanted to get it replaced with the same model

If the insurance is only for things like dropping it down the toilet, and the store tells me that my insurance is for 'breakdown cover' then, is thios mis-leading?

Why bother with insurance for breakdown cover at all?

Sam Vimes

Oryx wrote: »

Insurance covers you for things like dropping it down the toilet. Its optional.

Your statutory rights outweigh any warranty.

Seeing as your phone is still faulty, go back and mention the thing about a repair being supposed to be permanent. Ask for one of the other options (refund, replace) Be polite, but stick to your guns. Dont ever say 'But I know my rights!!' You might know em, but its dead irritating.

All else fails, scc.

They know repairs are supposed to be permanent. They get 100 people a day telling them so. They're still not allowed to go against the company policy and it'll be the staff themselves who take the hit for any unauthorised replacement.

Jev/N

Should have mentioned: I think insurance w/"breakdown cover" enables you to have a replacement on par with your model while your phone is being fixed. In addition, I would assume it covers breakdown of your phone outside of warranty.

Oryx

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They know repairs are supposed to be permanent. They get 100 people a day telling them so. They're still not allowed to go against the company policy and it'll be the staff themselves who take the hit for any unauthorised replacement.

All the more reason for people to realise they can complain and change a set up that is inherently wrong. I know they do it because financially its too expensive, giving away phones cheap with signup packages etc, but its their business model.

Oscar10

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They know repairs are supposed to be permanent. They get 100 people a day telling them so. They're still not allowed to go against the company policy and it'll be the staff themselves who take the hit for any unauthorised replacement.

If that is the case sam v, there must be a lot of unhappy sales people in stores taking the wrap for this policy from phone companies, why do they, the phone companies have it if they know it (the policy) is wrong?

Elessar

Oscar10 wrote: »

If that is the case sam v, there must be a lot of unhappy sales people in stores taking the wrap for this policy from phone companies, why do they, the phone companies have it if they know it (the policy) is wrong?

Because there is no one to stop them. Make no mistake, just because a company is big and well known, does not mean they operate ethically. Lot's of people make this assumption.

Insurance for these types of things is a massive money maker, that's why they push it. Unless it's specifically for accidental damage, product insurance is a complete waste of money in this country. You are protected under the law.

If the phone is broken, after a repair, and you are not happy, send a registered letter to their HQ and complain. If you don't get a satisfactory response, file a claim with the SCC. Let a judge decide.

Oscar10

Elessar wrote: »

Because there is no one to stop them. Make no mistake, just because a company is big and well known, does not mean they operate ethically. Lot's of people make this assumption.

Insurance for these types of things is a massive money maker, that's why they push it. Unless it's specifically for accidental damage, product insurance is a complete waste of money in this country. You are protected under the law.

If the phone is broken, after a repair, and you are not happy, send a registered letter to their HQ and complain. If you don't get a satisfactory response, file a claim with the SCC. Let a judge decide.

Really, is the insurance just a massive money maker, I thought it was a waste of time..

Do these people get commission for selling insurance??

Isn't that mis-leading under law?

Elessar

Do these people get commission for selling insurance??
Probably.

Isn't that mis-leading under law?
Is what misleading? Selling insurance isn't misleading. You're just buying into something you don't need.

Oscar10

but if they tell me i need it (insurance),like they actually said, isn't that mis-leading??

Jev/N

How is it misleading?

Oscar10

if they say i need it, and i don't

Mr. Presentable

Let them repair it again. Then it will either be fixed or replaced under their own terms.

Jev/N

Of course you might need it, it would be of assitance in many scenarios...

Off the top of my head:

- phone breaks accidentally
- phone breaks after warranty
- phone is lost
- phone is stolen

I would consider it more of an opinion or advice expressed by them and regardless I couldn't see this coming under fire by the Consumer Information Act 1978 unless there were a liteny of T's & C's which restricted the policy

Sam Vimes

Jev/N wrote: »

Should have mentioned: I think insurance w/"breakdown cover" enables you to have a replacement on par with your model while your phone is being fixed. In addition, I would assume it covers breakdown of your phone outside of warranty.

It entitles you to a replacement subject to availability, I don't think it says anything about it being on par with your own.

Oryx wrote: »

All the more reason for people to realise they can complain and change a set up that is inherently wrong. I know they do it because financially its too expensive, giving away phones cheap with signup packages etc, but its their business model.

Giving away the phones cheap actually has little to do with it, the shop makes more money from a bill phone than a PAYG phone because the network pays them the rest. The problem is at the manufacturers end. They won't take the phones back from the shop so the shop can't take it back from you. If you want to get it changed from the source, you'd have to go to Sony Ericsson and Nokia

Oscar10 wrote: »

If that is the case sam v, there must be a lot of unhappy sales people in stores taking the wrap for this policy from phone companies, why do they, the phone companies have it if they know it (the policy) is wrong?

Yes there are a lot of unhappy sales people in stores taking the rap which is why I spent a lot of time here telling people to go easy on them because it's not their fault and they have no power to change it. The phone manufacturers have the policy basically because they can get away with it

foggy_lad

Oscar10 wrote: »

Do they get commission for selling insurance in these places??

yes they do, that is why they usually push the insurance as being very important but in general if you are usually careful with your stuff and avoid senarios where you might be robbed or thrown in a canal or river with your phone there is little need to buy extra insurance as the sale of goods act covers the handset for manufacturing faults defects etc

Oscar10 wrote: »

How long does it take to get the small claims sorted out?

it can take anything from a few weeks to several months but usually 6-8weeks from start to finish. you must usually file a formal complaint with the company or shop first and give them a reasonable time(ten days) to remedy the problem

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They know repairs are supposed to be permanent. They get 100 people a day telling them so. They're still not allowed to go against the company policy and it'll be the staff themselves who take the hit for any unauthorised replacement.

whatever the staff have to do is nothing to do with the customers and can in no way detract from or diminish a customers statutory rights!

The problem is at the manufacturers end. They won't take the phones back from the shop so the shop can't take it back from you.

again this has nothing to do with the customer!

if you buy a new car and it blows up on the M50 will the garage refuse to take it back because they claim the manufacturer will not refund them? you still have the right to give it back to them and it is up to them to fight their own case with the manufacturer but it seems phone shops would rather not do this bit of work and pass the costs on to the customer!

Sam Vimes

It's all well and good to say they should fight it with the manufacturer but the fact that O2 decided to take the hit themselves until they lost too much money on it and went back to the three repairs rule suggests to me that's not such an easy thing to do

It's bad for everyone to force shops to take the hit themselves on every faulty phone if doing so drives them out of business leaving you nowhere to buy your phones

foggy_lad

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's all well and good to say they should fight it with the manufacturer but the fact that O2 decided to take the hit themselves until they lost too much money on it and went back to the three repairs rule suggests to me that's not such an easy thing to do

It's bad for everyone to force shops to take the hit themselves on every faulty phone if doing so drives them out of business leaving you nowhere to buy your phones

it is the way things work in ireland! Customer returns to store with faulty goods and store returns to manufacturer or wholesaler. the customer does not have to deal with the manufacturer and can not be held accountable for the cost of the store doing business with their suppliers!

Sam Vimes

foggy_lad wrote: »

it is the way things work in ireland! Customer returns to store with faulty goods and store returns to manufacturer or wholesaler. the customer does not have to deal with the manufacturer and can not be held accountable for the cost of the store doing business with their suppliers!

I'm aware of that. The problem in this case is that the "store returns to manufacturer" part of that arrangement is not going to happen so one of 3 things can happen:

1. All consumers can pay more to offset the cost of the returns. In this way the consumer can indeed be held accountable for the cost of the store doing business with their suppliers
2. The shop can bear the cost of all the faulty products even though the faults were not caused by them and lose a considerable amount of money, possibly going out of business through no fault of their own. This makes the business non-viable and leaves consumers nowhere to buy phones
3. A small percentage of unlucky consumers go through an unfair repairs process

And in reality number 2 is not going to happen because it's not financially viable to bear the brunt of all the manufacturer's faults. Personally given those options I'd rather take the risk that my phone is going to be ok because the alternative is that everyone pays more

robbie_998

i had this problem before with an unnamed source but i went in a lil annoyed and said to the guy "listen i've being on to the National Consumer Agency and they said I am entitled to a full refund or exchange and if i dont get that you'll have the authorities to deal with !" your man was ****ting him self and ran for another phone as quick as he could !

foggy_lad

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'm aware of that. The problem in this case is that the "store returns to manufacturer" part of that arrangement is not going to happen so one of 3 things can happen:

1. All consumers can pay more to offset the cost of the returns. In this way the consumer can indeed be held accountable for the cost of the store doing business with their suppliers
2. The shop can bear the cost of all the faulty products even though the faults were not caused by them and lose a considerable amount of money, possibly going out of business through no fault of their own. This makes the business non-viable and leaves consumers nowhere to buy phones
3. A small percentage of unlucky consumers go through an unfair repairs process

And in reality number 2 is not going to happen because it's not financially viable to bear the brunt of all the manufacturer's faults. Personally given those options I'd rather take the risk that my phone is going to be ok because the alternative is that everyone pays more

the store always have the choice to sue the manufacturers or stop selling their products untill they start taking responsibility for their shoddy products! whatever the store does do has nothing to do with the customer though as they can not refuse to repair replace or refund by saying the manufacturer wont refund them!

these stores should stop their whinging and treat customers properly as having to take the hit on a few faulty returns is just one of the costs of being in business! if they cant stand the heat they should get out of the mobile phone business.

Sam Vimes

I think "a few faulty phones" kind of underestimates the number, which the substantial amount of money lost by O2 showed when they briefly did what you're suggesting before realising it cost too much

Would you be willing to pay 10-20% more for your phones and/or your bills to offset the cost of bringing in this policy? Or would you be here complaining about them ripping us off?

foggy_lad

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I think "a few faulty phones" kind of underestimates the number, which the substantial amount of money lost by O2 showed when they briefly did what you're suggesting before realising it cost too much

Would you be willing to pay 10-20% more for your phones and/or your bills to offset the cost of bringing in this policy? Or would you be here complaining about them ripping us off?

i first suggested that the shopkeepers get refunds from the manufacturers and dont say this would not work as stores like tesco supervalue etc all source goods from suppliers with conditions atatched for returning damaged/faulty items for credit, if it can be done for televisions etc in tescos why cant the carphone warehouse vodafone o2 meteor do the same?

Sam Vimes

foggy_lad wrote: »

if it can be done for televisions etc in tescos why cant the carphone warehouse vodafone o2 meteor do the same?

I don't make the policies of those companies so I can't say for sure but I would guess that Nokia and Sony Ericsson have a better bargaining position than the makers of televisions as the two main players in the market. The shops get nothing out of this crappy policy besides headaches and bad publicity so I'm sure they'd jump at the chance to get refunds for their customers if they could get the manufacturers to pony up the dough

If you want to find out why it can't be done for sure you'd be best off asking O2 since they found that it was easier to pay for all replacements themselves than to get the manufacturers to change the policy

Elessar

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't make the policies of those companies so I can't say for sure but I would guess that Nokia and Sony Ericsson have a better bargaining position than the makers of televisions as the two main players in the market. The shops get nothing out of this crappy policy besides headaches and bad publicity so I'm sure they'd jump at the chance to get refunds for their customers if they could get the manufacturers to pony up the dough

What are you trying to say? Do you want us to sympathise with the poor retailers? Foggy lad is right, and an argument about this is pointless. Contract is with the retailer, and it is neither the consumers business nor obligation to consider the plight the retailer has with returns to their suppliers. If a fault has reoccured after one attempt by the retailer to repair the phone, you have power to go further since the repair is not permanent. The fact the retailer may be loosing money on foot of application of the law is completely irrelevant.

Sam Vimes

Elessar wrote: »

What are you trying to say? Do you want us to sympathise with the poor retailers? Foggy lad is right, and an argument about this is pointless. Contract is with the retailer, and it is neither the consumers business nor obligation to consider the plight the retailer has with returns to their suppliers. If a fault has reoccured after one attempt by the retailer to repair the phone, you have power to go further since the repair is not permanent. The fact the retailer may be loosing money on foot of application of the law is completely irrelevant.

I'm not saying we should sympathise with the retailers, I'm appealing entirely to selfishness. If the shops have to take the cost of every manufacturer fault, that cost will be offset by increasing prices. It's a crap policy but it's not the fault of the shops and the manufacturers won't live up to their responsibility so the cost is going to be put onto the consumer one way or another

foggy_lad

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'm not saying we should sympathise with the retailers, I'm appealing entirely to selfishness. If the shops have to take the cost of every manufacturer fault, that cost will be offset by increasing prices. It's a crap policy but it's not the fault of the shops and the manufacturers won't live up to their responsibility so the cost is going to be put onto the consumer one way or another

the retailers and phone companies are already increasing their costs by restricting upgrades and by increasing the length of contracts while phone prices stay the same so what you are saying is the shops will add 20% to handset costs to allow for repairs and they will still get most handsets repaired under warrenty so it is all about money in shopkeepers tills!