Fixed Penalty notice - Incorrect reg.

smidsy

Hi All,

Just looking for general advice here.

I received a Fixed Penalty notice for speeding, and the reg number is incorrect by 1 digit. Its an 8 instead of a 6.

Normally I would just pay the fine & take my punishment.

But im wondering if a simple admin error like this means that its not a proper fine, and if so, would have to be thrown out.

Iv heard of fines being thrown out due to admin errors, could be a different type though.

Thanks

eringobragh

More info:

Were you pulled for speeding or was it a Revenue pic in the post??

maidhc

Was it you?

I know of an Audi 80 that apparently was heading southbound on the m50, despite the fact the car hasn't be started for years and is parked up in a field with 4 flat tyres!

stealthyspeeder

The law is the law and should be obeyed to the letter


*dismounts high horse*


Now if the law gets their letters wrong...... IMO its not your problem and you shouldnt have to pay the penalty.

Saab Ed

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Now if the law gets their letters wrong...... IMO its not your problem and you shouldnt have to pay the penalty.

+1

I'd say you're off the hook there. Sure you cant be prosecuted for driving a car you just were not driving.

TwoShedsJackson

If they got the reg number wrong I wouldn't pay it.

Terrontress

If your plate wasn't right, how do they know it was you?

maidhc

if it was just an error where the Garda made a clerical error in noting the reg, then forget it. If it goes to court the Judge will just amend the errors there and then and proceed.

-Chris-

The fact that the fine arrived at the registered owner's address would suggest that they know what the correct reg is and it's merely a typo on the bit of paper.

I wouldn't chance it. And as maidhc says, it'll be a simple administrative thing to correct the typo and do you anyway.

ha-ya-said-what

Clerical error, seems to happen quite a bit with the guards lately, they will eventually re-issue an amended one. There is a simple way out of all points & fines ya know! That's what the separeate section is for on them...

ikillcopiers

This happened to me, so I'll give you my two cents worth.

I received the First Charge Notice in the post, and noted the
reg was wrong (the had 08 X 1234 when it should have been 06 X 1234).

I consulted my solicitor and followed his advice to great avail.

First to note is that the First Charge Notice can be changed, it's
basically a note asking you to admit you are liable.
If you tell the Gardai of the error they can issue you a new first
charge notice.

The summons, however, is a formal charge being brought against you.
I waited and a few months after my local Gard presented me a summons
related to the offence at my home. The summons still contained the
same error, so now the error is binding, for lack of a better term.

My solicitor then represented me in court (it was actually another solicitor
as it was not a local ticket), and the charge was struck out.

Solicitor's charge for everything was less than I would have paid on the original ticket.

I wasn't even in court on the day, it's only a five minute thing.

So basically, I got off with no points and no fine.

If you want to go down a similar route talk to your local solicitor.

maidhc

ikillcopiers wrote: »

My solicitor then represented me in court (it was actually another solicitor
as it was not a local ticket), and the charge was struck out.

Odd as the Judge has discretion to amend the summons if he wants. Certainly in Cork you would get short shrift if you tried pulling that one.

jeff lebowski

This happened to me when I got stopped in the north. Because I was from the Republic I had to get a summons rather than pay an on the spot fine. Summons came out and the reg was wrong by 1 digit. In the form I had to send back I pointed this out but the cop said it was a clerical or transcription error and they sent an amended notice then. It'd be easier just to pay it because a judge wouldn't be too sympathetic if it went that far I think.

ikillcopiers

maidhc wrote: »

Odd as the Judge has discretion to amend the summons if he wants. Certainly in Cork you would get short shrift if you tried pulling that one.

A Judge can declare a mistrial also, and I don't think that a Judge has the power to alter a summons, the summons is issued by the Gardai.
The Judge doesn't bring the case, he presides over it. I'd question a Judge's right to do that, he's meant to be impartial.

And it is the Gardai's reponsibility to conduct their job correctly.
The registration is basically all the evidence in their case, if they get that wrong what else is there?

They have to be able to identify the vehicle used in the offence, if they can't do that there is no case.

There were 3 bikers brought to court last week supposedly doing around 150mph down the motorway,
and because the Gardai couldn't verify the registrations, mostly due to that fact they couldn't get anywhere near them to get the numbers,
was thrown out of court aswell.

There are no assumptions in court, only hard evidence.

I want to add too, I am not a chancer talking big in a forum.
This has happened to me, and that was the outcome.
I would never do anything in a court without consulting my solicitor first.

My solicitor told me this is a common occurrence,
and this is how they deal with it.

He's a professional with a good court record, and I'll take his
advice over anyone else.

Above all else, CONSULT A SOLICITOR.

maidhc

ikillcopiers wrote: »

A Judge can declare a mistrial also, and I don't think that a Judge has the power to alter a summons, the summons is issued by the Gardai.

No, you are wrong. Judges amend summonses every day of the week.

It is rare that a court dismisses a case on the basis of an error or omission in a summons. Discrepancies or differences, between the facts on the summons and the facts presented to the court by the prosecuting Garda concerning time and place of the incident, does not normally prevent the prosecution of the case. In fact, the District Court has discretion to amend a defective summons.

From: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/criminal-law/criminal-trial/summons

ikillcopiers

As I said, I wasn't sure on that particular point, and to be honest, I'm quite surprised.

Also, with regards to things that can be changed on a summons, I doubt that the primary
piece of evidence (the reg number) can be altered.

My solicitor told me in no uncertain terms that once the wrong number was on the summons,
it can't be changed, and his assessment of the situation was proven correct.


The main thing I care about is that I can trust my solicitor, he's never steered me wrong.

robbie99

ikillcopiers wrote: »

First to note is that the First Charge Notice can be changed, it's
basically a note asking you to admit you are liable.
If you tell the Gardai of the error they can issue you a new first
charge notice.

The summons, however, is a formal charge being brought against you.
I waited and a few months after my local Gard presented me a summons
related to the offence at my home. The summons still contained the
same error, so now the error is binding, for lack of a better term.

Did your solicitor say what would happen if following the error on the First Charge Notice, the summons that was served to you no longer contained the error?

maidhc

robbie99 wrote: »

Did your solicitor say what would happen if following the error on the First Charge Notice, the summons that was served to you no longer contained the error?

lads, how hard is it

There are two scenarios:

a) Gatso van sends you a fixed charge notice in error becase your number plate was misread. You got to court and get off

b) You are stopped by the gardai. You give you name address etc. Somehow there is an error on the summons. But you were speeding etc. You are not in any way prejudiced so the judge amends things left right and centre and you get fined.

ikillcopiers

He said because it was on the system it was very unlikely to be rectified.
He had never seen the Summons change from the First Charge Notice

The summons will follow on from the First Charge Notice, so if the number
is correct on the Summons and not on the First Charge Notice, there might
be an argument about the validity of the Summons when it wasn't preceded
by an appropriate First Charge Notice.

That would be a question for a solicitor, but I did weigh up the possibility
of having to go to court and get 4 points.

Again, questions for the solicitor!

ikillcopiers

maidhc wrote: »

lads, how hard is it

There are two scenarios:

a) Gatso van sends you a fixed charge notice in error becase your number plate was misread. You got to court and get off

b) You are stopped by the gardai. You give you name address etc. Somehow there is an error on the summons. But you were speeding etc. You are not in any way prejudiced so the judge amends things left right and centre and you get fined.

Well I was in scenario B - yes, I was stopped by the Gardai, asked the questions, got my address taken and so forth.

The Judge did not amend the Summons in court, she threw it out.

According to your logic, that can't happen.

Well, it can and it did.

I'm done with this, I've said my piece and I know well this will just run and run.



Last piece of advice:

CONSULT A SOLICITOR,
do not mistake any advice on these forums as the law!

smidsy

Iv got in touch with my Solicitor.

Im waiting on his call.

Iv an added problem, in that iv 8 points already.

If I lose in court, I get the 4 points, and therefore a 6 month ban.

Also, im leaving the country for a year or 2(not certain) on 6th August.

So I wouldnt be able to attend in court.

Might be ok if the solicitor appears in my absence.

smidsy

My solicitor just got back to me.

He is adament that it would be a very high risk strategy to dispute the penalty.

Especially since, if I lose, I lose my licence.

So im going to take it on the chin.

If I had fewer points, i'd take the chance.

Thanks all.

Stephen

Well, if you're leaving the country for a year or two some of you existing points will probably have expired by the time you come home anyway!

mickdw

Im sure the solicitor was being very cautious in this case as it would result in you being off the road if it went wrong. Im sure they would admit though that the most likely outcome would be that the case would be thrown out.
Judges dont do gardai any favours and generally give them a telling off over this kind of stupid mistake.

smidsy

I agree that the solicitor is being prudent.

But when you consider it...

On the one hand, chance it & possibly lose licence.

On the other, take the 2 points, and it wont harm me, as half my points will have expired by the time I return, if at all.

I dont know what would happen if i was caught in Australia with a banned licence, but it probably wouldnt be nice.

Especially as Ill be driving a campervan for 6 months.

NotInventedHere

If everybody went to court instead of blindly paying the fines the system would collapse in less than 6 months. Gone to court on all my speeding summons 3 in total. zero points on my licence

Redsoxfan

ikillcopiers wrote: »

Solicitor's charge for everything was less than I would have paid on the original ticket.

Really? What was the fine attached to the original offence?

ikillcopiers

Fine on the First Charge Notice was €80.
I know that solicitor, it could have been "mates rates".

I did also weigh up the possibility of gaining 4 points after a day in court,
but I had 0 on my license at the time so I deemed it a risk worth taking.

If I had 8 points there's no way I'd chance it,
better to have 10 points and a license than a day in court and none!

You're making the right call in my opinion as regards contesting it smidsy,
if I was in your situation I'd make the same call.

Best of luck all the same

Jo King

maidhc wrote: »

No, you are wrong. Judges amend summonses every day of the week.

Judges amend summons' every day of the week. They do so on the application of the prosecuting guard before he gives evidence. A summons is only a device to procure the attendance of the defendant in court and is not evidence of the facts stated on it.
The key issue is the guards oral evidence. If he gives oral evidence which contains the same error as the summons and closes his case, the summons will not be changed afterwards.
These cases are tried in the District Court. District Court judges vary considerably in their approach. Solicitors who deal with a particular judge regularly can predict accurately how a particular defence will work.
What happens in one district may not happen in another.

mondeo

I have a similar example to this, a yr ago or so my sister was caught on a vatso van. However her reg was not clear because of dirt on the reg so she did not pay it because you could not actually read the reg to identify her.
1 digit was completely out, it was more then likely her car but the argument was presented and the charge was dropped under a technicality...