The Antichrist / End Times

philologos

We haven't had a chat about this in a long time. What exactly is the anti-Christ, are there more than one?

What does it mean to be "in the last hour", or "the end of all things is near".

This is the passage that caught my eye:

1 John 2:18-25 wrote:

Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.[URL="javascript:void(0);"]*[/URL] I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and you know that no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ?[URL="javascript:void(0);"]*[/URL] This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Have we hyped up the Antichrist as something that it wasn't originally intended to be?

Soul Winner

Jakkass wrote: »

Have we hyped up the Antichrist as something that it wasn't originally intended to be?

Not at all.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:25-27


"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Revelation 19:19-21

All futue events so keep watching and faint not.

prinz

IMO the "anti-Christ" is everywhere. Anything that distracts from the messgae Jesus brought. Anything that tries to draw us away from God and into self-servitude.Drugs, porn, consumerism, omnipresent advertising bombarding us with what you need - you need decking, you need to trade up the car, your kids need x,y or z or they won't make friends. tbh anything that's purpose is putting ourselves first and God/others second. Have never had much time for the idea of the tailed beast type charicature.

philologos

What do you think of the notion that many antichrists have risen up and this is a sign of the end times? It seems as if they are talking about individuals rather than things. I mean the things that you have described there would have existed in some way or other before the antichrists ever existed.

Nerin

If there is more than one does that not detract from the impending doom though?
Not taking the piss,but compare it to that ninja maths theory,basically the more ninjas in a film the easier it is to kill em,whereas if theres just one he is a formidable opponent.

If theres a number of antichrists,i'd see the story as less menacing.

prinz

Jakkass wrote: »

What do you think of the notion that many antichrists have risen up and this is a sign of the end times? It seems as if they are talking about individuals rather than things. I mean the things that you have described there would have existed in some way or other before the antichrists ever existed.

Individuals who could be described as antichrists have always existed through time though, it's not a modern phenomenon. IMO the antichrists have existed since the beginning, since God cast them out. tbh I don't go in for the end times either, I'll have my end time like everyone at the point of death, tomorrow or 50 years from now. IMO if the world comes to a flash-bang finish it will be due to man and not God. Masters of our own destruction.

prinz

Nerin wrote: »

ninja maths theory,basically the more ninjas in a film the easier it is to kill em,whereas if theres just one he is a formidable opponent.

Congratulations you just made maths appealing :pac:

philologos

Nerin wrote: »

If theres a number of antichrists,i'd see the story as less menacing.

Well there are two Beasts in the book of Revelations. However in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 it refers to a "lawless one" who is destined for destruction who exhalts himself about all gods, and even claims to be God.

It's a bit of a muddly topic, but incredibly interesting.

Soul Winner

The stage is being set for the false prophet and antichrist as we speak. Cash will disappear eventually and a world wide monetary system will be put into place eventually, where nobody will be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast. Watch out for someone in the area of Iran/Iraq/Jordan/Syria to come up with a peace plan with Israel. The false prophet is pictured as one who looks like a lamb so for me that is a church leader somewhere. If you were Satan and had your pick of church leaders to possess who would you pick in order get maximum exposure to the masses and persuade them to bow down to the beast (not a literal beast but rather a very peaceful and appealing man) and to take his mark? I know who I'd pick.

What Paul says in his epistle is that this man of sin cannot be revealed until that which holds him back is taken out of the way. I believe this to be the Church in the Rapture. Once the Church is gone (the real body of believers world wide) only then can the man of sin be revealed, and when he is revealed he will come from that aforementioned area of the world with a peace plan for Israel and three and half years into that peace deal he will break his accord with them and all hell is going to break loose on this earth. I won't be hear so enjoy it to anyone who will

philologos

I don't want to nitpick Soul Winner, but would you mind bringing in some of the Scriptural references so that others can see your line of thought?

Soul Winner

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't want to nitpick Soul Winner, but would you mind bringing in some of the Scriptural references so that others can see your line of thought?

No problem. What parts do you want me to back up with scripture?

philologos

The one world monetary system and the man in trying to bring Jordan / Syria / Iran / Iraq trying to bring peace with Israel. (Mind you Jordan has already signed accords with Israel as of 1996), oh and the 3 and a half years of peace.

I've always been rather confused with apocalyptic scripture in the New Testament so it would be a help to see how you build up this view

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

If you were Satan and had your pick of church leaders to possess who would you pick in order get maximum exposure to the masses and persuade them to bow down to the beast (not a literal beast but rather a very peaceful and appealing man) and to take his mark? I know who I'd pick.

Here we go again...

Soul Winner, by any chance are you a follower of Herbert Armstrong, and a reader of The Trumpet?

philologos

prinz wrote: »

Here we go again...

Relax, it's the Archbishop of Canterbury :pac:

pts

Soul Winner wrote: »

Watch out for someone in the area of Iran/Iraq/Jordan/Syria to come up with a peace plan with Israel. The false prophet is pictured as one who looks like a lamb so for me that is a church leader somewhere. If you were Satan and had your pick of church leaders to possess who would you pick in order get maximum exposure to the masses and persuade them to bow down to the beast (not a literal beast but rather a very peaceful and appealing man) and to take his mark? I know who I'd pick.

I'm not intending to offend, but the first person that came into mind after reading this was the Pope.

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

Soul Winner, by any chance are you a follower of Herbert Armstrong, and a reader of The Trumpet?

No but he looks really interesting. Thanks

Soul Winner

Jakkass wrote: »

The one world monetary system and the man in trying to bring Jordan / Syria / Iran / Iraq trying to bring peace with Israel. (Mind you Jordan has already signed accords with Israel as of 1996), oh and the 3 and a half years of peace.

I've always been rather confused with apocalyptic scripture in the New Testament so it would be a help to see how you build up this view

I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Takes a bit of digging to find all of them.

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

No but he looks really interesting. Thanks

:pac: No problem, glad to be of help. Thought you could use some company when it comes to blaming the Pope and the Germans for the woes of the world.

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

Thought you could use some company when it comes to blaming the Pope and the Germans for the woes of the world.

Eh not sure where you got that from but, whatever I suppose...

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

If you were Satan and had your pick of church leaders to possess who would you pick in order get maximum exposure to the masses and persuade them to bow down to the beast (not a literal beast but rather a very peaceful and appealing man) and to take his mark? I know who I'd pick.

The Pope you're referring to no? I believe you made such indications before.

Jakkass wrote: »

Relax, it's the Archbishop of Canterbury :pac:

:eek: He does have an air of Radovan Karadzic and Josef Fritzl about him in that picture :eek:
Joke people, before any accuses me of comparing them. I'm sure he's a lovely man.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Eh not sure where you got that from but, whatever I suppose...

Read a few issues of The Trumpet and you'll know :pac: It's all End of the World/marks of the beast/current affairs matches prophecy type of muck. Apparently World War 3 is just around the corner and Germany led by the antichrist will cause it all.

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

The Pope you're referring to no? I believe you made such indications before.

I was referring to the leader of a particular Christian institution not any particular individual. Just because I believe that institution to be the Roman Catholic institution does not mean I think it is the present Pope but I do believe it will definitely be a Pope at some time and who know maybe it is this one. The reason I believe it to be the Roman Catholic Institution is because it is the largest religious organization in the world and obviously something which antichrist is going to need to ally himself to somehow in order to sway the masses to worship him. The false prophet will bridge that gap by giving the antchrist the proverbial thumbs up. It will sell out its people to him and perform wonderous signs on his behalf hich will fool everybody and they will think that he really is Christ. Anyway that's only if you beleive what the Bible says.

prinz wrote: »

Read a few issues of The Trumpet and you'll know It's all End of the World/marks of the beast/current affairs matches prophecy type of muck. Apparently World War 3 is just around the corner and Germany led by the antichrist will cause it all.

Well I don't believe that Germany is the location where antichrist will come from so straight off the bat we disagree with each other. I'm in the process of putting a reply post together for Jackass in relation to geography/time frame and such for antichrist which I hope will explain why I believe that he will come from the area of Iran/Iraq/Trans Jordan/Syria etc.

Soul Winner

Jakkass wrote: »

The one world monetary system and the man in trying to bring Jordan / Syria / Iran / Iraq trying to bring peace with Israel. (Mind you Jordan has already signed accords with Israel as of 1996), oh and the 3 and a half years of peace.

The cashless one world monetary system is pretty straight forward enough. No one will be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast (whatever that is). I’m sure we can assume that money is not the mark of the beast because if it was then everyone will be going to hell, because it specifically states in Revelation that anyone who receives this mark will be cast into the lake of fire. As it is, not everyone is going to hell which means that whatever the mark of the beast is, it’s not money. Hence if you cannot buy or sell without the mark then money is obviously going to be useless.

The clue to where the man of sin will actually come from geographically is given in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.

Daniel 7

"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart."

The Lion Kingdom was Babylon
The Bear Kingdom was Medo-Persia
The Leopard Kingdom was Greece
And the non descript Beast is the Kingdom of Antichrist.

The ten horns it had correspond to the ten toes of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision in chapter 2 and the ten heads of the beast in Revelation 13 and 17 which came out of the sea. The ten toed kingdom of the first vision is place at a time when the everlasting kingdom will come. Because it is in the time of these ten toes that Christ comes back to set up his kingdom. The little horn which uproots three is antichrist. I believe this means that he might come to prominence via a regional conflict but will make peace with Israel once his regional stability is established. You have to read Daniel 9 to find out the time frame which the angel gives to Daniel in relation to his people. 70 week of years are decreed upon thy people, Daniels people were the Jews. We are just awaiting the final week to be completed, this will be done as soon as God’s set time for taking His Church home comes. When God is finished dealing with the Church His attention will focus on the Jew. And as this seventy week or years prophecy was to them this final seven years will start once the church is gone and God’s wrath will be poured out on this earth.

Daniel 9:24-27

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (make peace): and in the midst of the week (3 and a half years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Revelation 13:2

"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

His feet were as the feet of a bear. That tells me that the geographic location of the ancient Medo-Persian empire is where this beast will come from. That is where Iran/Iraq/Syria etc are located now. That’s why I believe he will come from this area at some point. He will probably come to power through a regional conflict in that area first. He will be allied to a very powerful religious organization which I believe can only be the RCC or a joining together of many Churches including the Greek Orthodox with the RCC at the helm. They both will deceive many and cause them to receive his mark without which no one will be able to buy or sell. He will make peace with Israel and within 3 and a half years he will break that peace and set himself up as God the temple. When the seven years are completed and God’s wrath has been poured out on those who did not accept the atoning work of Christ, then will Christ come back and will destroy both him and the false prophet with the brightness of His coming.

ocianain

It's interesting how so many "Christians" have the end times figured out, when The Savior, you know, Jesus Christ says, "No one, not the Angels, not Me, only The Father knows the end." (paraphrase). How can Hal Lindsay and other end timers know what Christ didn't?

PDN

ocianain wrote: »

It's interesting how so many "Christians" have the end times figured out, when The Savior, you know, Jesus Christ says, "No one, not the Angels, not Me, only The Father knows the end." (paraphrase). How can Hal Lindsay and other end timers know what Christ didn't?

What He said was that no-one knows the day or the hour. It was referring to the timing of the Second Coming.

Having said that, I disagree with Hal Lindsey etc on just about most details.

Soul Winner

ocianain wrote: »

It's interesting how so many "Christians" have the end times figured out, when The Savior, you know, Jesus Christ says, "No one, not the Angels, not Me, only The Father knows the end." (paraphrase). How can Hal Lindsay and other end timers know what Christ didn't?

He only said this in relation to the time when heaven and earth will pass away not for His second coming. Only to those who are not watching for Him does He come as a thief in the night, not so for those keeping watch.

And yes He did say to watch and pray for no man knoweth the hour. He also said that there will be visible signs before the end comes that we will be able to see but that they are only birth pangs. So even though we know not the hour of His coming, we can know when it is near if we are actively watching.

pts

I just came across this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMAnlMmEPw

It seems to imply that the President of the United states is the Antichrist by using Bible verses and the reverse engineering of Hebrew.

Do people here believe the claim in the video? (I'm assuming most regulars won't) I'm also curious too if Christians on this forum believe that prophecies are "ecoded" in the Bible?

PDN

pts wrote: »

Do people here believe the claim in the video? (I'm assuming most regulars won't) I'm also curious to if Christians on this forum believe that prophecies are "ecoded" in the Bible?

No & No.

Soul Winner

pts wrote: »

I just came across this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMAnlMmEPw

It seems to imply that the President of the United states is the Antichrist by using Bible verses and the reverse engineering of Hebrew.

Do people here believe the claim in the video? (I'm assuming most regulars won't) I'm also curious too if Christians on this forum believe that prophecies are "ecoded" in the Bible?

For the reasons given already I don't believe Barack Obama is the antichrist but it is a very interesting vid all the same. The problem I have with it though is that is sounds like the narrator wants it to be him going out the gate so he looks for support for his theory in scripture, and he does in fact find it, but that does not mean that he's right, it could be just coincidence. There are plenty of other verses in scripture which suggest that the lawless one is not Obama even though what was presented in the vid has a lot going for it. The lawless one has to make peace with Israel for one and the USA are already at peace with them so that rules him out for starters. When looking for scriptural support for a theory one must read all verses relative to the subject in order to get the clearest possible picture. He can only be a candidate to be antichrist if he fulfills ALL the criteria laid out in scripture and as has already been pointed out, he doesn't.

Seaneh

I'm going to throw this out there.

The word for "anti" in the bible doesn't mean "the opposite of" it litterally means "in place of" of the "Anti-Christ" could be ANYTHING that is worshiped "in place of" Christ.

IMHO it will be a world leader whom teaches a message of openess and peace, someone who lures people into a false sense of security while also removing most of out civil rights, probably the head of the future one world government.

Just my view though.

ocianain

I'm no fan of BHO, but even I don't think he's the anti-Christ. There's a problem with theories like this, translation. Since criticism of the Bible can be taken the wrong way let's talk about the Tain, or the Illyiad. Go into any bookstore and there's various translations by different authors, why is that? Why not just one literal translation?

Because there is no such thing as a literal translation, some capture the essence, some are more literal. Anyone here who read the Tain in the Irish, or, the Illyiad in Greek could vouch for this. This being so, the idea you pick up a dictionary and convert English words into Hebrew and this discover hidden secrets is too much, sounds more like gnosticism then Christianity.

bigeasyeah

I dont know what it is but I just dont trust Obama.
Its probably the smaltz rhetoric.

ocianain

I don't trust him either, he thinks talking and smiling wins arguments, he also has a habit of speaking in the Royal sense, that is, discussion is over/moot do what I say. He's starting to come apart as a result.

Handsome Bob

When I was a Catholic I always imagined that the anti-christ would not so much be supernatural, but would be a world leader who instigated the "end of times". This world leader would represent the ultimate failure of God's message, and would also represent the ultimate corruption of man by the devil.