Leaving the Catholic Church

countmeout.ie (Paul)

Hi,

Countmeout.ie is a website to assist those who wish to leave the Catholic church. The site generates all the forms you need to leave the church, lists all dioceses and has an FAQ etc.

So if you were disgusted by the Ryan Report, don't like the state's close relationship with the church or are just plainly an atheist/agnostic and want out then we hope this site will be useful for you.

You can also join the facebook group here and follow us on twitter: @countmeout.ie

Any feedback, comments, abuse welcome.

tba

I didn't realise you had to fill out forms to leave a religion.

dvpower

Do you have to return your communion money?

(That's a deal breaker for me)

Dades

http://www.countmeout.ie/

Have included this link in the "Related Links" thread.
Thanks, OP.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

Dades wrote: »

http://www.countmeout.ie/

Have included this link in the "Related Links" thread.
Thanks, OP.

Cheers. I suppose there's a bit of preaching to the converted here but just wanted people to know that this site exists and they may know of people who would find it useful.

tfitzgerald

why

countmeout.ie (Paul)

Ok, thread has been unlocked. Feel free to offer feedback on the site or throw some questions out there.

Very interesting website Paul, just a quick question (the answer's probably on the website, so I'm sorry if it is), where do you send the letter to? I've attempted this process before, but only by sending a letter to my local priest. If I wanted to do it properly, should I send it to my local bishop or what? Thanks.

rccaulfield

dvpower wrote: »

Do you have to return your communion money?

(That's a deal breaker for me)

Spent mine straight away-knew there was a catch- Why would anyone officially leave a religions ffs?

Rev Hellfire

rccaulfield wrote: »

Why would anyone officially leave a religions ffs?

Because they've nothing better to do.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Very interesting website Paul, just a quick question (the answer's probably on the website, so I'm sorry if it is), where do you send the letter to? I've attempted this process before, but only by sending a letter to my local priest. If I wanted to do it properly, should I send it to my local bishop or what? Thanks.

The website will generate the address for you, you just need to know what diocese you were born in. There is a full directory of diocese on the site as well.

rccaulfield wrote: »

Why would anyone officially leave a religions ffs?

Well, some people may not be bothered. Others may not wish to be counted as a member of the church for a variety of reasons e.g. abuse scandals, lack of faith, desire to remove church from all state affairs, emotional satisfaction.

dvpower

What I don't quite understand is what actually happens when you leave?

Does your name come off a members list somewhere? Does a members list actually exist anywhere?

I used to be in the scouts when I was a kid. I didn't leave. I just stopped going. Same with the RCC.

Why so I get the impression that when you send the letter in to the diocese, they just file it away in a big wheelie bin?

countmeout.ie (Paul)

dvpower wrote: »

What I don't quite understand is what actually happens when you leave?

Does your name come off a members list somewhere? Does a members list actually exist anywhere?

I used to be in the scouts when I was a kid. I didn't leave. I just stopped going. Same with the RCC.

Why so I get the impression that when you send the letter in to the diocese, they just file it away in a big wheelie bin?

The baptismal record is amended to say 'defected' on your record. In order to see what happens to letters we are also asking people to send us the letters they get back from the church.

dvpower

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

The baptismal record is amended to say 'defected' on your record. In order to see what happens to letters we are also asking people to send us the letters they get back from the church.

Is there a potential downside? When I die, and if my family bring me to the local RCC for a funeral service, are they likely to refuse them?

I admit that theres a certain contradiction to this; if you're not a catholic, you cannot expect a catholic funeral. But, when I'm dead I won't care how I'm disposed of but my family might and they might just want to go for a catholic funeral as the easiest option.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

dvpower wrote: »

Is there a potential downside? When I die, and if my family bring me to the local RCC for a funeral service, are they likely to refuse them?

I admit that theres a certain contradiction to this; if you're not a catholic, you cannot expect a catholic funeral. But, when I'm dead I won't care how I'm disposed of but my family might and they might just want to go for a catholic funeral as the easiest option.

From a literal reading of it, if you are not a Catholic, you cannot expect to avail of a Catholic funeral. However, if you are willing to allow your family arrange your funeral in accordance with their own Catholic beliefs, then I would assume a priest would find it difficult to deny that request.

dvpower

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

From a literal reading of it, if you are not a Catholic, you cannot expect to avail of a Catholic funeral. However, if you are willing to allow your family arrange your funeral in accordance with their own Catholic beliefs, then I would assume a priest would find it difficult to deny that request.

I've posted this question on the Christianity forum.

I'd imagine that it is the cultural aspects of catholism that keep many people on their books (that and Pascal's wager).

Overblood

Are there any negative reprocussions with this other than a bit of confusion at your funeral?

Also, this letter displayed on your site states that "ones baptism is irrevocable and can never be altered." Doesn't that mean that you'd still be a catholic stat?

crotalus667

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

Well, some people may not be bothered. Others may not wish to be counted as a member of the church for a variety of reasons e.g. abuse scandals, lack of faith, desire to remove church from all state affairs, emotional satisfaction.

Sorry to rain on your parade Paul but I looked into doing this before (never got around to doing it ) you will still be counted as catholic , the baptism register is the only one that is marked upon your request , however when gathering statistics they use a different register (it’s either the communion or confirmation one ) so you are still counted :mad:

countmeout.ie (Paul)

crotalus667 wrote: »

Sorry to rain on your parade Paul but I looked into doing this before (never got around to doing it ) you will still be counted as catholic , the baptism register is the only one that is marked upon your request , however when gathering statistics they use a different register (it’s either the communion or confirmation one ) so you are still counted :mad:

Well, that's something we will have to look into. Maybe you could elaborate a little on where you got that info?

Personally, my motivation for defecting had nothing to do with statistics. I was simply disgusted at what was detailed in the Ryan Report. I had been atheist for years but never really saw the need to formally leave the church. The Ryan Report jolted me into thinking: why am I still a member of this organisation?

Having said that, the question of statistics is important and we will have to look further into their relevance and use by the church.

jill_valentine

Paul-

I respect your statement that it was the Ryan Report that provoked you into formal defection, and as you say, you'd been atheist for a while so it wasn't kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing. But for the purposes of the countmeout website, it may be worth leaving the language a bit more open, rather than specifically related to the Ryan Report. People have a lot of reasons for leaving, and might be a bit hesitant if they feel like they're furthering your agenda rather than their own.

Great site, much appreciated.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

Overblood wrote: »

Are there any negative reprocussions with this other than a bit of confusion at your funeral?

Also, this letter displayed on your site states that "ones baptism is irrevocable and can never be altered." Doesn't that mean that you'd still be a catholic stat?

Yes, that letter does say 'irrevocable'. However, another official source, the diocese of Cork and Ross said the following to us by letter:

"The Act of Defection is a basic renunciation of one's baptism."

I think all this does is show that the church themselves are unclear about the whole issue. Hopefully our campaign can establish their official position in this regard.

jill_valentine wrote: »

Paul-

I respect your statement that it was the Ryan Report that provoked you into formal defection, and as you say, you'd been atheist for a while so it wasn't kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing. But for the purposes of the countmeout website, it may be worth leaving the language a bit more open, rather than specifically related to the Ryan Report. People have a lot of reasons for leaving, and might be a bit hesitant if they feel like they're furthering your agenda rather than their own.

Great site, much appreciated.

Thanks for your comments, I just wonder if you may elaborate more on where we specifically relate it to Ryan. Someone else already gave similar feedback about the default text we have for the cover letter putting words in people's mouths. We agreed and removed it. Perhaps you could say exactly which part you have trouble with because I do agree, in principle, that the language should be as open as possible and not further any one agenda.

jill_valentine

Whoops, sorry, I used the site the other day. Yeah, either it's been redrafted since then or my memory is failing me.

crotalus667

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

Well, that's something we will have to look into. Maybe you could elaborate a little on where you got that info?

It was mentioned by some on a site that was dedicated to leaving the church AFAIK the info came from some one that was previously in the priest hood . If I can find the site I’ll post a link it had a rather good template for a letter to get you out (I think it was in a few different languages as well apparently the Italians are leaving in relatively large numbers compared to the rest of us)

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

Personally, my motivation for defecting had nothing to do with statistics.

Nether was mine as far as I am concerned I was never a catholic so I wanted my name removed (I did seriously consider excommunication as it is the only way you can be out for good(altho the pope can let you back at his desecration)

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

Having said that, the question of statistics is important and we will have to look further into their relevance and use by the church.

The church will all ways find a way to manipulate them in their favour :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

see countmeout got some replies to question about marriage

http://www.countmeout.ie/faq/#question3Does defecting mean I can't get married in a church?

Yes, technically speaking, defecting from the church excludes you from all Catholic ceremonies which require baptism. This includes marriage ceremonies, funerals, and Last Rites. Note that this does not exclude you from attending such events, it merely means you yourself cannot get married, or be issued with the Last Rites etc.

We have received a response from the Diocese of Cork and Ross regarding this question:

"The Act of Defection is a basic renunciation of one's baptism. Therefore...this excludes the person from Catholic marriages, funerals and reception of other sacraments. Of course, it would not preclude the person from attending such ceremonies such as the marriage and funerals of others. It would, however, mean that the person would not be able to receive Holy Communion"


However, it appears from anecdotal evidence that the application of this rule can differ depending on the parish/priest in question (for example, a non-Catholic marrying a Catholic). We suggest you consult with your parish priest if you have any concerns in this regard.

so is that a yes or no then?

this is the problem i had in this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055543123



there deliberate fudging of the issue.

countmeout needs to ask that priest about the whole promising or not to bring your children up catholic if one of you is catholic. you need to aks ' so its about the chidlren isn't it'

im surprised by the answer you got.


this answer is connected

http://www.countmeout.ie/faq/#question5

Can I still have my future children baptised?

We wrote to the Diocese of Cork and Ross posing this question and the following is the response:

"In relation to the issue of baptism, a child is baptised on the basis of the promise that the parents and godparents make to have the child brought up in the practice of the [Catholic] faith. If the parent is not a Catholic or has defected from the Catholic faith, it would be difficult to comprehend a situation where they would want their child baptised or whereby they would be able, or wish, to make the promise to have the child brought up in the practice of the faith"

It appears evident from the above quote that parents who are not Catholic or have defected could not, in good conscience, agree to having their child baptised mainly because they could not promise to raise the child in the Catholic faith. However, the response states "it would be difficult to comprehend a situation where they would want their child baptised". The feedback we have seen in relation to our website would suggest that entering a child into a local school would be such a situation.

again there's an official rule and a lets maintain control way.

i don't think you've really answered the questions, its so difficult to nail it down but i think you do need to use some of what Gambler says most people will ask because one wants to get married by the church and one wants to remain clearly atheist during that process. the answer is in what he wrote although i think it still a fudge by the church.

jill_valentine

lostexpectation, in my experience, the official line on that varies from priest to priest, so countmeout can't really make any guarantees either way.

lostexpectation

jill_valentine wrote: »

lostexpectation, in my experience, the official line on that varies from priest to priest, so countmeout can't really make any guarantees either way.

well i not having a go at him when i ask is that a yes or no, im looking for the church to answer.

there is an official line.
but then when you go to priests it varies.

i sure this is written down somewhere on the Vatican site too, im surprised the priest didn't point to it.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

lostexpectation wrote: »

see countmeout got some replies to question about marriage

http://www.countmeout.ie/faq/#question3Does defecting mean I can't get married in a church?

I defected and got married in a catholic church - it was a straight forward mixed marrige cermmony ... i.e. a catholic and a non-catholic getting married.

Dades

So basically, as a "defector" you're not subsequently treated any differently than a non-catholic? That would seem right.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Dades wrote: »

So basically, as a "defector" you're not subsequently treated any differently than a non-catholic? That would seem right.

Exactly. There was some mention at a meeting with the priest who married us that technically I was still a Christian but technically not a Catholic. I made it clear that I wouldn't be doing/saying anything religious for the cermony even though he still views me as technically christian.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

lostexpectation wrote: »

see countmeout got some replies to question about marriage

http://www.countmeout.ie/faq/#question3Does defecting mean I can't get married in a church?


so is that a yes or no then?

this is the problem i had in this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055543123

there deliberate fudging of the issue.

countmeout needs to ask that priest about the whole promising or not to bring your children up catholic if one of you is catholic. you need to aks ' so its about the chidlren isn't it'

im surprised by the answer you got.


this answer is connected

http://www.countmeout.ie/faq/#question5

Can I still have my future children baptised?



again there's an official rule and a lets maintain control way.

i don't think you've really answered the questions, its so difficult to nail it down but i think you do need to use some of what Gambler says most people will ask because one wants to get married by the church and one wants to remain clearly atheist during that process. the answer is in what he wrote although i think it still a fudge by the church.

We did our best to get a clear answer on this and, to be fair, I think the Diocese's response was pretty clear. Problems arise when different priests apply the rules differently. But, you can be certain, the church's official view is that if you are not Catholic, you can not receive any of the sacraments.

In relation to baptism, the official line, as I read it, is that if you are not Catholic and wish to have a child baptised into the church, then you must stand in a church and promise to bring the child up in the Catholic faith. If you can do that, regardless of your own thoughts on the religion, then I suppose they have to take your word on it.

Dades wrote: »

So basically, as a "defector" you're not subsequently treated any differently than a non-catholic? That would seem right.

This would seem to be on the mark as well.

lostexpectation

Originally Posted by Dades View Post
So basically, as a "defector" you're not subsequently treated any differently than a non-catholic? That would seem right.

This would seem to be on the mark as well.

they can't both be right, you say in the faq

Q.Does defecting mean I can't get married in a church?

A. Yes

it seems to me your saying here the answer to above question is No.

maybe you should at least change the question to

Q Can I get married in a church if I defect.

A Maybe

then add the stuff regard your partners wishes and consideration on bringing your children up catholic.

the stuff about still being christian is interesting.

although he doesn't make distinction between catholic and christian.

i figure defecting does leave you as christian in the churches eyes, in fact, when people talk of broadening the blasphemy debate to believers you could also broaden countmeout to included catholics who want to break from the Irish Roman catholic church. in another part of your faq you _suggest_ doing this leaves you either atheist or agnostic, maybe catholics might want to it use to break from the organised church here, heck they may even end up using it to facilitate getting rebaptised into a evangelical congregation.

ah i see you changed the faq again. thats exactly what you have said.

if you ever reply to the priest you have to bring up the whole 'age of reason is 12' thing and ask why if you supposed to able to decide to confirm yourself at 12yrs old why can't you also defect after that age too.

Overblood

lostexpectation wrote: »

if you ever reply you have to bring up the whole age of reason is 12 and ask why if you supposed to able to decide yourself to confirm yourself that you can't also defect after that age too.

What's the jist of this sentence?

countmeout.ie (Paul)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6689482.ece

crotalus667

Paul every time i click on the "click here to begin" button the pop up is mostly off my screen and i cant move it ???:(

countmeout.ie (Paul)

crotalus667 wrote: »

Paul every time i click on the "click here to begin" button the pop up is mostly off my screen and i cant move it ???:(

Yeah, we've had a few problems with people using Internet Explorer. We're working on fixing it but can I suggest you use Firefox instead, we don't seem to be having any problems with that. We are constantly updating our twitter feed with any fixes we have so you could watch there as well.

Dades

Paul, just an aside, you should probably put a link to the site in your sig.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

Dades wrote: »

Paul, just an aside, you should probably put a link to the site in your sig.

Good idea, just tried to do it and was greeted by this:

You do not have enough posts to add a signature.

Ho hum.

togster

I can't see how you could expect to get married in a catholic church and defect. A bit hypocritical tbh.

It's good this service is available to people though.

eightyfish

dvpower wrote: »

What I don't quite understand is what actually happens when you leave?

The baby Jesus cries.

Dades

countmeout.ie (Paul) wrote: »

Good idea, just tried to do it and was greeted by this:

You do not have enough posts to add a signature.

Ho hum.

Ah yes - you need 25 posts.
A few more and you're good to go!

togster wrote: »

I can't see how you could expect to get married in a catholic church and defect. A bit hypocritical tbh.

Depends on your reason for leaving, I guess. It doesn't have to be because of some huge dislike of the RCC - though it that situation I'd be inclined to agree.

So it doesn't have to be any more hypocritical than, say, a Protestant getting married in one.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

togster wrote: »

I can't see how you could expect to get married in a catholic church and defect. A bit hypocritical tbh.

If you don't consider yourself a Catholic but were baptised/communion/confirmed and get married in the Catholic church, then I think it's even more hypocritical!

I defected before getting married for this very reason.

togster

Dades wrote: »

Depends on your reason for leaving, I guess. It doesn't have to be because of some huge dislike of the RCC - though it that situation I'd be inclined to agree.

If you get married in a catholic ceremony then you still consider yourself catholic. If you accept any of the sacraments then you consider yourself catholic otherwise why do it?

I don't consider myself catholic but i won't be defecting anytime soon. (too much other things to do) but i won't be getting married in one either.

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

If you get married in a catholic ceremony then you still consider yourself catholic. If you accept any of the sacraments then you consider yourself catholic otherwise why do it?

I don't consider myself catholic but i won't be defecting anytime soon. (too much other things to do) but i won't be getting married in one either.

I wouldn't agree with that. Pretty much the only thing that's stopping me from leaving is the fact that I wouldn't be allowed a church wedding or funeral. It's for other people's sake and nothing to do with my beliefs

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that. Pretty much the only thing that's stopping me from leaving is the fact that I wouldn't be allowed a church wedding or funeral. It's for other people's sake and nothing to do with my beliefs

Fair enough. I just dpn't understand how people who say they are not religious, getting married or buried in a church.

CerebralCortex

togster wrote: »

Fair enough. I just dpn't understand how people who say they are not religious, getting married or buried in a church.

A severe lack of choice.

Dades

Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, the hypocrite!

As for marriage, the Higher Power is often the one in white, whose old man is paying for the shindig.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

togster wrote: »

Fair enough. I just dpn't understand how people who say they are not religious, getting married or buried in a church.

I'm getting tired of saying this ... you can be non-religious and get married in a church. For example, your partner may be a Catholic and you have no religion - in that case it's simply a non-catholic marrying a catholic ... a mixed marrige. Easy.

Soul Winner

Isn't asking the Roman Catholic Church to officially give you a letter of defection sort of like Gerry Adams asking for an official letter from the Queen stating that he is a member of Sinn Fein? And isn't accepting this letter of defection recognizing that the Roman Catholic Church is a legitimate organization in your eyes? I was baptized into the RCC when I was a baby, made my communion and confirmation simply because of my parent’s wishes. It wasn't a conscious thought out decision on my part to give my life to a particular religion which I held in high regard because of its teachings, so it cannot be allowed to have any legal binding or have any spiritual significance anyway. For the RCC to say something is irrevocable to me is a meaningless statement. They have no more claim on me than spam email. Just because I didn't realize what I clicked on in the mail does not give them the right to auto-subscribe me as one of their monthly/weekly contributors. Their baptism cert means nothing to me. I don't need them to officially declare me defected. I don't recognize their proclamations in religion so why should I recognize any of their other official statements?

Sam Vimes

I'm sure you've seen those anti war t-shirts that bear the slogan "not in my name". It's kind of like that. I don't want my name to add weight to the authority of that organisation.

lostexpectation

Soul Winner wrote: »

Isn't asking the Roman Catholic Church to officially give you a letter of defection sort of like Gerry Adams asking for an official letter from the Queen stating that he is a member of Sinn Fein? And isn't accepting this letter of defection recognizing that the Roman Catholic Church is a legitimate organization in your eyes? I was baptized into the RCC when I was a baby, made my communion and confirmation simply because of my parent’s wishes. It wasn't a conscious thought out decision on my part to give my life to a particular religion which I held in high regard because of its teachings, so it cannot be allowed to have any legal binding or have any spiritual significance anyway. For the RCC to say something is irrevocable to me is a meaningless statement. They have no more claim on me than spam email. Just because I didn't realize what I clicked on in the mail does not give them the right to auto-subscribe me as one of their monthly/weekly contributors. Their baptism cert means nothing to me. I don't need them to officially declare me defected. I don't recognize their proclamations in religion so why should I recognize any of their other official statements?

the church is a real organisation leaving it is a real act, countmeout isn't a supernatural website

lostexpectation

lostexpectation wrote: »

if you ever reply to the priest you have to bring up the whole 'age of reason is 12' thing and ask why if you supposed to able to decide to confirm yourself at 12yrs old why can't you also defect after that age too.

ah i knew i had looked this up before
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055208036

your faq doesn't go far enough in even using the churches own words.

What age do I have to be?

We asked the Diocese of Cork and Ross this question. The Diocesan Secretary, Fr. Tom Deenihan, responded as follows:

"I would think that, because of the implications of such a decision, a person should be 18 before making such a decision"


The above does not amount to an official position so it is unclear as to whether there is a minimum age for defecting from the church. If you are under 18 our advice to you would be to talk to your parents or your parish priest.

the church considers 12 the age of reason, i think your presumption should be any age after that should be applicable for defection.

and even go further by saying that the church says you have an option of whether to get yourself confirmed or not at that age.


although i don't think you could avoid your parents knowing even though this is supposed to be you and the church. so discussing it with your parents is good advice.