Lord of the Flies by William Golding (warning: may spoil plot)

turgon

...discuss!!!

Absolutely fantastic book. The first 'proper' book I read was 1984 and since then I had been searching for another great. Golding supplied it.

In the same vein as Orwells Animal Farm, Golding brings human actions and motives down to their most simplistic levels by employing children as the main characters. What they symbolize, and the wider symbols in the books, arent elusive. Although some may see this as the book being simplistic, I see it as being totally accessible.

The parallels between characters and our lives are pretty good. Piggys failure to get his ideas (the best of the groups) across simply because he was disliked is evident nowadays too. Im particularly thinking of peoples inability to accept Enda Kennys ideas because they dislike the man.

So favorite characters? Favorite symbol? Favorite part?

Any intellectual questions about the text to discuss are fully welcome!

Eoin

This is probably my favourite book from school. It was very enjoyable as a story in its own right, but there are lots of interesting metaphors (Simon / Jesus) etc.

BossArky

eoin wrote: »

This is probably my favourite book from school. It was very enjoyable as a story in its own right, but there are lots of interesting metaphors (Simon / Jesus) etc.

Agh, that was my one! I knew this book inside out for the Junior Cert.

Favourite theme: the destructive tendency of mankind.

Favourite scene: one of the characters hiding in the trees at the top of the hill, or hiking up the mountains to see the other side of the island.

turgon

eoin wrote: »

This is probably my favourite book from school. It was very enjoyable as a story in its own right, but there are lots of interesting metaphors (Simon / Jesus) etc.

+1 on two points. Firstly one of the main great point about the book it it is very exiting. A lot of classic books can be boring, but this was was great. I couldnt put it down at all, and I was pretty anti-social at the time. The whole beast thing keeps you on your toes.

And also, there is a lot to be read by the fact Simon is first to be murdered (I think?)

Eoin

Simon I think is the first to be murdered, but I think that the kid with the birthmark on his face is the first that dies when they light the fire on the hill. Piggy is killed as well, so that's three that die in total?

buck65

Kill the pig - spill his blood.
Great book - totally got into this at school, even the hards in school liked this one (inbetween doling out wedgies!)

turgon

I think a few more of the "little one" go astray and are lost. How do ye read the little ones? What role do they supply?

Eoin

"Bollocks to the rules" was a popular quote for us, as it was the closest we could come to swearing in an exam paper.

buck65

turgon wrote: »

I think a few more of the "little one" go astray and are lost. How do ye read the little ones? What role do they supply?

Representing the minorities or perhaps representing the disabled or infirm? From what I remember everything had to be done for them at the start.
Of course another symbol was the airman with the billowing chute - representing our hidden demons and fears.
With all the symbolism here is it possible that Golding set out to write an adventure and we all analysed the hell out of it?

turgon

Quite probably. Or even the regular masses? Because they seem to be equally oppressed/looked down on no matter what the political power is above.

No Im pretty sure Golding knew what he was doing.Given that he later won both the Booker Prize and the Nobel Prize . Have ye read any of his other books? Ive read the Spire myself. Same in the sense there are moral lessons to be learned from it. Not half as accessible as Lord of the Flies though.

Eoin

They might just have been representing the common man that's easily influenced by leaders.

Edit - snap.

ilovenerds

Personally, I imagine the littluns to represent future generations (note how Ralph feels a natural responsibility to protect them)... Their purpose is to reflect how the actions and ethics of the older generations affect the next in line . Also the littluns serve as a device to map the descent of all the children into a savage and depraved existence. As the littluns get dirtier, so do the politics:p Finally, it is the failure of the littlun, Percival, to remember his address chant, which highlights that the children have lost almost all traces of their former "civilized" selves.

Another point worth noting is the parallel, which Golding draws between the conch shell (the symbol for democracy) and the pig’s head(representation of the devil) at the end of the novel:

"The skull that gleamed as white as ever the conch
had done and seemed to jeer at him cynically"


Is Golding implying that the Lord of the Flies has replaced the conch in becoming as great and unquestioned an authority as it ever was?? Does the shining skull signal the transition of the children from their ingrained faith in justice and decency to their newfound allegiance to perverse and demonic powers? Well?....:D

turgon

ilovenerds wrote: »

Their purpose is to reflect how the actions and ethics of the older generations affect the next in line.

Its actually been a few months since Ive read it, from what I remember the littleuns went around dazed the whole time! How did they "reflect the actions and ethics"?

ilovenerds wrote: »

As the littluns get dirtier, so do the politics

ilovenerds wrote: »

Does the shining skull signal the transition of the children from their ingrained faith in justice and decency to their newfound allegiance to perverse and demonic powers?

Yes, I think thats the central theme Golding is trying to convey. Of course this is reinforced by the way the conch is destroyed - it is thrown off of a cliff by Ralph the Tyrant. Also Piggy, the voice of reason, is killed by the barbarians.

Do you think this theme is relevant today? Is it relevant to our lives, as people presumably living in Ireland?

ilovenerds

turgon wrote: »

Its actually been a few months since Ive read it, from what I remember the littleuns went around dazed the whole time! How did they "reflect the actions and ethics"?

Hmmm...what I meant was that Jack's decision to abandon all civilized conduct and adopt barbaric practices influences the way in which the littluns will behave when they come into power. The littluns do live in their own world but they also emulate the older children by adopting their chants etc.

turgon

Yeah thats a good point.

However, I would be disinclined to see that as their sole purpose!!

Any favorite parts/characters/<insert other generic literary term here> ilovenerds?

Spiritoftheseventies

turgon wrote: »

Yeah thats a good point.

However, I would be disinclined to see that as their sole purpose!!

Any favorite parts/characters/<insert other generic literary term here> ilovenerds?

wasn't it to supposed to signify the breakup of europe after the end of the second world war?

turgon

What part?

Spiritoftheseventies

turgon wrote: »

What part?

Basically the whole book. The conch i thought signified who got to control of post war germany. and all the super powers began to fight amongst themselves.

ilovenerds

turgon wrote: »

I would be disinclined to see that as their sole purpose!!

Yeah true...they're also there for a bit of mildly amusing scatology(their diet insure that):p

Favourite character would have to be Piggy... He has great insight but he's also completely credible, not like some of the angelic little child prophets other writers create.

turgon

ilovenerds wrote: »

Favourite character would have to be Piggy... He has great insight but he's also completely credible, not like some of the angelic little child prophets other writers create.

But would you contend that despite Piggys unpopularity being everyone else's fault, that this unpopularity makes him a bit of a failed character. IN that he didnt appeal enough to the other to make his view heard?

Maybe a bit extreme in this case, but taking Piggy as a symbol. One of the jobs of people with good ideas is to sell that idea.

Spiritoftheseventies

ilovenerds wrote: »

Yeah true...they're also there for a bit of mildly amusing scatology(their diet insure that):p

Favourite character would have to be Piggy... He has great insight but he's also completely credible, not like some of the angelic little child prophets other writers create.

yeah we did this book in school. left a very big impression on me. black and white film version i think was the best adaptation of it.

ilovenerds

turgon wrote: »

But would you contend that despite Piggys unpopularity being everyone else's fault, that this unpopularity makes him a bit of a failed character.

Alot of characters fail to communicate with or persuade others but it simply makes them flawed characters... he is definitely not a failed character! He voiced his beliefs and it was the others prerogative whether or not they chose to listen to him.

turgon wrote: »

Maybe a bit extreme in this case, but taking Piggy as a symbol. One of the jobs of people with good ideas is to sell that idea.

Sometimes, no matter how good an idea is, people don't want to listen...

turgon

ilovenerds wrote: »

Sometimes, no matter how good an idea is, people don't want to listen...

True, but in the case of Piggy its distinctly because of Piggy?

I agree with him being a flawed character rather than a failed character.

ilovenerds

bayviewclose wrote: »

Basically the whole book. The conch i thought signified who got to control of post war germany. and all the super powers began to fight amongst themselves.

Could you explain this a little bit better please? Who represents who? I'm guessing Jack is America or something but who, did your teacher say,are the others?

Spiritoftheseventies

ilovenerds wrote: »

Could you explain this a little bit better please? Who represents who? I'm guessing Jack is America or something but who, did your teacher say,are the others?

wasn't my teacher. but definitely heard about it. this link gives you a rough idea. I would think that Piggy was probably poland.

http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/91223.html

ilovenerds

bayviewclose wrote: »

wasn't my teacher. but definitely heard about it. this link gives you a rough idea. I would think that Piggy was probably poland.

http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/91223.html

Ahh so I was completely wrong:o Thanks for the link, actually makes alot of sense... You can probably interpret the book on a variety of levels... That's what makes it such a brilliant read:)

turgon

I think that the themes that Golding deals with are similar to those themes running around the time of the War, so its easy to compare them. Of course this is the strength of a great novel - themes that aren't limited in scope.

But ilovenerds is also right, "The seven interpretations of Heart of Darkness" and all that.

Thanks for the link!

DTrotter

Great book must read it again, anyone read anything else of Goldings? I tried to read The Inheritors but couldn't get into it, I heard The Spire is good. Could you say that Cormac McCartys The Road is almost Lord of the Flies on a large scale.

Spiritoftheseventies

yes have seen the two film adaptations of the film. much preferred the black and white version.

turgon

DTrotter wrote: »

Great book must read it again, anyone read anything else of Goldings? I tried to read The Inheritors but couldn't get into it, I heard The Spire is good. Could you say that Cormac McCartys The Road is almost Lord of the Flies on a large scale.

I read the Spire, its a lot heavier that Lord of the Flies. Its kind of similar in that its essentially a study of human behavior in the guise of a simple story/parable. Lots of technical terms dealing with cathedrals!

Some interesting themes in it. Other than the main one (human irrationality etc) Golding deals with "cost." So the church spire originally "costs" a lot of money, but it becomes apparent the cost will also include lost friendships and the like.


I intend to read the trilogy To the Ends of the Earth by Golding soon. The first part, Rites of Passage, won the Booker prize in 1980.